Leyard TWA0.9 LED Video Wall at CEDIA 2017 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 105 Old 09-15-2017, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by J`eremySt View Post
The peak brightness and contrast is all a bit of a marketing game. Driving walls at higher levels is possible, but the penalties for noise/heat/power can be a bit rough. 600 Nits is an intentional limit we put on TWA, to keep power consumption reasonable, and also because 600 peak is more than enough for most of indoor applications. We could drive our walls up to 1000-1200 nits, but we choose not to in the TWA family because of those reasons. all LED walls can go to ZERO light output for black, so they all have "infinite" contrast, technically.

Relative to other products, there are pros and cons. The Sony is not available in .9 pitch, so 4k walls would not be possible in most residential settings. Also, the Sony has much more depth, heat, and noise.... which additionally limits the places you can put it. Leyard has front servicable .9 DVLED with an installed depth of <4". (DirectLight) For the well-heeled, it can replace a flat panel or projection system in most residential settings.

TWA is made up of 4"deep cabinets, so that, plus your mounts, could mean installed depths under 12".

The Sony has a textured glossy surface, which doesn't come without its tradeoffs. It looks good, for sure, but as a product, it comes with some additional obstacles, relative to Leyard, that the integrator must consider.

As a company, we dont see what Sony is doing as having much of an impact on our core markets. The Sony isnt even in the conversation with most of our clients, because it doest fit their application or budget. The Leyard .9 4k wall is $400,000 but the Sony is more, is lower resolution relative to surface area, and doesnt fit in the same spaces.

If your only data point is peak brightness, then maybe the Leyard isnt for you. Other than that it is subjective to call the Sony "competition" with the Leyard wall.
Ah, excellent. Thank you for reaching out. It's fantastic to be conversing with those actually behind this Leyard product. This demonstrates just how useful these forums can be.

Please take what I have said as constructive criticism and not being dismissive. My company specializes in high-end home audiovisual and the sort of comments and observations that I have been saying are precisely the sort of discussion we will be having with some of our high-end clients and customers, who will wish to know for example whether the product performs as well as their TV and/or other similar products on the market.

There is definitely a market for seamless modular 4K HDR video walls with respect to the high-end domestic home theater/cinema market. However, these products are going to need to be able to hold their own against stiff competition from other video display products. If you are confident that your product ticks all the right boxes as far as what consumers are looking for and will hold its own as compared with the competition then we'd absolutely love to learn more about your product.

So, thank you for your further information and clarification with respect to the video performance specifications of your product.

Firstly, I must disagree with your statement that "peak brightness and contrast is all a bit of a marketing game" given both of these parameters are all-important with respect to video performance. Other important aspects include: Minimum 100% of DCI P3 Colorspace; Support for both 10-bit and 12-bit Colour Depth; Support for 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 chroma subsampling; good response times and low input lag; full HDR compatibility and support with respect to all of HDR10, Dolby Vision, and HDR10+; support for High Frame Rates (HFR) including 60fps and 120fps; and support for 3D etc. etc. It is these criteria which are the demand of consumers and pre-existing consumer video displays offer these. Some consumer video displays don't yet support Dolby Vision or HDR10+ but it's heading that way and it's important for any high-end video display product, as yours clearly is, to support everything that's applicable to the high-end of video, so that means ideally your product should be supporting all of these.

With respect to your current marketing information (such as your product specification/technical information sheet here: http://www.planar.com/products/led-v...d%20TWA0.9.pdf and your product brochure here http://www.planar.com/media/436602/l...re_07-2017.pdf) it would appear that your product has been developed for the commercial/professional industry and you are exploring the possibility and/or seeking to sell it into the domestic home theater industry. As such, given the further information and clarification that you've just posted, my comment is that you should consider producing new marketing information, such as a new marketing brochure accordingly, because at the present time your as far as the domestic home theater industry is concerned your product specification sheet and brochure leave a lot to be desired, don't do your product the justice it deserves, and necessitates a further education step to attain the level of information that it should be communicating in the first place. For instance, your documenation lists the following:

- Brightness Max (cd / sq m) = 600 nits
- Contrast Ratio = > 6,000:1
- Color Gamut = 100% NTSC
- Video Input Resolution Maximum = 1920 x 1080 @ 60 Hz
- Frame Rate = 50, 60 Hz
- Color Processing = 10 bit

Where you are either talking in terms that are different as those used to describe consumer video display products and/or the figures listed are not apples-with-apples as compared with those typically specified with consumer video display products. Furthermore, there's numerous instances of vital information that AV professionals and customers alike would wish to know that are missing.

First of all, it indicates a peak luminosity of 600 nits where in the language that home theater enthusiasts and professionals first impressions will be that that does not impress. You should note that with respect to consumer TVs the industry standard video performance specification refers to peak luminance of 10% window of white 235, where for example the new 2018 Philips OLED has a peak luminance of 900 nits; and the 100" Sony Z9D/ZD9 is 2,500 nits. But you state 600 nits, without mentioning that this applies to full field white 235 and not the typical definition within the consumer video industry that describes peak luminance of 10% window of white 235. So a lot of folks are going to jump to the wrong conclusion. This is just one aspect of many where your current marketing information won't be doing your product any favours.

Furthermore, you use the term 'Brightness' to mean Luminance, when in fact as far as both professional video calibration and consumer video displays are concerned Brightness relates to Black Level, and not Luminance. Again, confusing.

Contrast Ratio is listed as being only 6,000:1 but you are claiming in reality it is much higher than this? If this is the case, then why say it's only 6,000:1? Please note that claims of 'Infinite' contrast ratios aren't received well here... unless they are actually genuine and not simply only applicable to a full field black 16 image. Therefore, are you saying that whenever there is a full fade to black, namely a full field black 16 image, you simply turn off the light source and hence the contrast is 'Infinite'? Because that's completely meaningless. What's important is what is the contrast ratio with actual video, not when the display is turned off or full fade-to-black only. Therefore, what's important here is what is the luminance level of the full field with a single pixel as white 235 and the rest black 16? Is the luminance the same as a full field black 16 image plus the luminance of the singular white pixel? Or is it higher than this? If it's higher then that's NOT true 'Infinite' contrast but the fake/fudged sort which doesn't wash here. So, I ask you, what is the contrast ratio with a single white pixel? Is this 6,000:1 or is it greater? Ultimately what's most important here is perceived Black Levels, where native contrast is only one aspect that influences this. However, it's an important measurement nonetheless, although there are other factors that influence perceived Black Levels which are also important as well.

Next let's move on to Color Gamut. In your marketing information you state "100% NTSC" when the consumer video display specifications are listed as percentage of the respective colorspaces, previously Rec.709, now DCI-P3 and/or BT.2020. Where "100% NTSC" is meaningless to most people. Ideally for a high-end consumer display your product needs to be delivering at least 100% DCI-P3, but preferably towards 100% of BT.2020. Sony's CLEDIS reports the latter. Either way, the consumer video display industry standard is now DCI-P3 colorspace, so your product should be talking in terms of that and not NTSC. As it stands it's another example of where your current marketing information is both unhelpful and confusing.

Onto image resolution, very unhelpfully and again confusingly your marketing information states: "Video Input Resolution Maximum = 1920 x 1080 @ 60 Hz"; where many folks will conclude that this is an HD only display and doesn't support 4K. However, you and I know that this is a modular product with fixed pixel resolution so you can quite easily create a 4K resolution screen simply by combining the corresponding number of video modules together. So really you'd be best to change this because currently it's both misleading and confusing. You want to be pitching this product as a 4K display, not "1920 x 1080" = HD.

Frame Rate lists 50 and 60Hz only, which begs the question does it support 24 and 25? And Color Processing states 10-bit, when the industry standard necessitates support of up to and including 12-bit.

Consequently, for you to be truly successful with respect to selling this product into the consumer home theater/cinema industry you need to bring both your marketing information including terminology and specification details, as well as the actual performance specifications of the product itself, in line according to what are the industry standards as of right now. The aforementioned are merely some examples. There are others (e.g. does it support HDMI 2.0b? HDCP 2.2? What HDR formats does it support? Dolby Vision? Etc.) but at least this points you in the right direction.

I think that your product has great potential. In its present form and with respect to the current marketing information there are issues, regarding which I have already commented. However, I think that if you take the necessary steps from here to ensure that it ticks all the right boxes performance-wise and compliance-wise, as well producing some proper marketing information that's optimized for the consumer home theater industry, then your product has the potential to be successful, regarding which we wish you the very best.

As a company, with this further information and clarification you have rekindled our interest, so I will PM you our details as we'd like to learn more.

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post #32 of 105 Old 09-15-2017, 06:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J`eremySt View Post
The peak brightness and contrast is all a bit of a marketing game. Driving walls at higher levels is possible, but the penalties for noise/heat/power can be a bit rough. 600 Nits is an intentional limit we put on TWA, to keep power consumption reasonable, and also because 600 peak is more than enough for most of indoor applications. We could drive our walls up to 1000-1200 nits, but we choose not to in the TWA family because of those reasons. all LED walls can go to ZERO light output for black, so they all have "infinite" contrast, technically.

Relative to other products, there are pros and cons. The Sony is not available in .9 pitch, so 4k walls would not be possible in most residential settings. Also, the Sony has much more depth, heat, and noise.... which additionally limits the places you can put it. Leyard has front servicable .9 DVLED with an installed depth of <4". (DirectLight) For the well-heeled, it can replace a flat panel or projection system in most residential settings.

TWA is made up of 4"deep cabinets, so that, plus your mounts, could mean installed depths under 12".

The Sony has a textured glossy surface, which doesn't come without its tradeoffs. It looks good, for sure, but as a product, it comes with some additional obstacles, relative to Leyard, that the integrator must consider.

As a company, we dont see what Sony is doing as having much of an impact on our core markets. The Sony isnt even in the conversation with most of our clients, because it doest fit their application or budget. The Leyard .9 4k wall is $400,000 but the Sony is more, is lower resolution relative to surface area, and doesnt fit in the same spaces.

If your only data point is peak brightness, then maybe the Leyard isnt for you. Other than that it is subjective to call the Sony "competition" with the Leyard wall.
Then just give me TRUE hdr 10 and i have nothing but orders for you. It is the right size that is for sure. Just like the common cathode silicon core, but those people never answer emails and calls, so...

Can you please email me some specs and dealer info: Peter@cineramax com .Thanks
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post #33 of 105 Old 09-15-2017, 06:30 PM
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Then just give me TRUE hdr 10 and i have nothing but orders for you. It is the right size that is for sure. Just like the common cathode silicon core, but those people never answer emails and calls, so...

Can you please email me some specs and dealer info: Peter@cineramax com .Thanks
That's precisely one of my points Peter... Namely that the marketing information doesn't tell us what's important and/or what we really need to know about how this product performs and/or is compatable with respect to home theater usage. Definitely worth a look though now they've clarified a few things, eh Peter?

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samsung has a similar IF commercial signage series, though they have yet to release the .9, they did show the tile, what I like about samsung is a(hdr10+) b it can be tilted, long a must do with large rear projection rigs, the sony I don't think can be tilted.



I would not worry too much about the 4k spec when you seat close to these things you have to pan your head to traverse the 4k. I'm all for cropping or zooming when beneficial.
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post #35 of 105 Old 09-16-2017, 06:55 PM
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Want to know what a good picture is?
Go to a tropical latitude,on an overlook,out the window on a beautiful day and demand a display that challenges your view,
I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. Do you want the display to display these bright images at the same nits as you get in real life, even in a dark room? If so, why would I pay extra for a display that makes me want to put sunglasses on?

Do you ever wear sunglasses? If not then you are in the minority of Americans.

If a display actually showed an outdoor bright day scene at realistic light levels for the whole image it would probably be displaying the source outside of how it was encoded or it is using a rare source.

It is fine if your personal preference is to not watch content in a dark room, but there are those of us who want the video we are watching to be the only thing we see.

My theater not only has black velvet on the walls, but also on the ceiling and floor.

I personally think it is those who turn room lights on (or have light coming through windows) no matter what they are watching who are less into video quality than those who want the pure video experience that comes with the video being all that is visible. Kind of like somebody who purposely turns on a noisemaker other than an audio source, because they don't want to be in a silent room, then calls themselves an audiophile.

--Darin
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post #36 of 105 Old 09-16-2017, 07:04 PM
 
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There is no need for sunglasses inside a penthouse with a gorgeous view in early morning/late afternoon, none whatsoever, just blues and greens in WCG, that is the reference i covet to compete with and deliver with cledis. of course there is a dark setting but facing an image in a dark room all the time is downright depressing. You are in the minority of americans i retort.

When you first see these cledis and samsung cinema screens inside a theater, knowing quite well what these Penthouses in Miami, or San Diego for that matter offer, it is crazy to put a bat Cave cinema aloft these high places. Its High Art the one and not the other.
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post #37 of 105 Old 09-17-2017, 04:59 PM
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Just peak brightness is not too telling as it does not include the color gamut at wich it offers this peak, nor the contrast, the RGB balance.

The Chinese vendor I was talking to had a hard time answering the question of the Color Gamut his displays offered. Brochure came out and there was a triangle, but strange names like phosphors ... point, Is that 601, 709? Anyway, it was less than 'LED' for his LED display.

Stating the peak value of a full white frame is a good thing, so that comparison is 235 vs 600.

@J`eremySt, at IBC this weekend you are not showing the TWA series, like you showed last year, this year there is only the TWS series. What's the difference?

Unfortunately no HDR demo, unless you have an unlisted meetingroom/suite at the show, I might go see in the morning?

In general I thought the LED demo's in hall 8 were a bit dissapointing this year. Bland no HDR, still module borders and so on, I can't remember which vendor had a visible patern of the sub-modules showing. A bit like the CLEDIS, ARROW saw at ISE this February.

Will head down to the Sony hall in the morning for a last chance to check out the CLEDIS. Some-one said it was 8K, but given Sony's demontration history it I 2x4K side-by-side, not two up, two down, 4x4K.

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post #38 of 105 Old 09-17-2017, 05:17 PM
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Ah finally a fellow disliker of dark environments. By themselves they hurt my eyes, can be uncomfortable, regardless of the presence of a display or not.

I like bright displays. As Darin points out bright screens and brighter environments close the iris, making the dark image parts appear blacker.

100K lux, that would be some display;-). I.e full sun daylight is not attainable by a long shot.
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post #39 of 105 Old 09-17-2017, 05:36 PM
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Nigel, I can guarantee you none of these directview LED walls offer 6000:1 contrast. Real contrast, i.e. intra-image contrast, is much lower even on the most popping tradeshow (these are designed to be used at tradeshow, and consumer shows, and all other shows;-)) display's I have seen over the years.

Given phosphor decay, I doubt the infinite contrast claims we ofter hear/see on (o)led can be real.

Great to see real bit rates for the internal processing, LED addressing. Often we see 16 Bit or even 24 advertised. 10 bit sounds too low for lineair brightness

Nigel where does Jeremy say 235 white, instead of 256, let alone not 1024 for 10 bit? And yes BBC R&D designed HLG assuming we will extend the range to offer more HDR with the same imited bitdepth. So, 1024 is a real world number for 10 bit.
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post #40 of 105 Old 09-17-2017, 05:50 PM
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Direct sunlight is roughly 10000 lumen per sq ft . So to light 16ft wide scope screen will need 1,100,000 lumens to display afternoon sunlight
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You are in the minority of americans i retort.
And I would counter that videophiles are in the minority.

Even if commercial theaters get panels that can go super bright I wouldn't want them turning the room lights on for movies. Turning room lights on is counter to "home theater" IMO. TV is a different matter. For example, I went to a boxing event last night at a local theater and for that content I would have been happy with room lights on and a mm emissive display that could go bright.

Different strokes for different strokes.

I'm not sure what the 6000:1 claim means, but if the most CR a panel system can do between a white pixel and a black background on the same panel is 6000:1, I would consider that a bigger weakness than 500 nits vs 1000 nits for my theater.

--Darin
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Ah finally a fellow disliker of dark environments. By themselves they hurt my eyes, can be uncomfortable, regardless of the presence of a display or not.
Does watching a movie in a commercial theater bother you? Or is it more all black surfaces?

--Darin
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post #43 of 105 Old 09-18-2017, 02:35 AM
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I'm not sure what the 6000:1 claim means, but if the most CR a panel system can do between a white pixel and a black background on the same panel is 6000:1, I would consider that a bigger weakness than 500 nits vs 1000 nits for my theater.

--Darin
Absolutely agree with you here Darin. Incidentally Sony's CLEDIS reports 99% of the pixel area is black and claims a contrast ratio of greater than 1,000,000 : 1 and that's with peak luminance of 1,000 nits full field white. So thats over 160 times the contrast performance as compared with the Leyard's 6,000 : 1

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Does watching a movie in a commercial theater bother you? Or is it more all black surfaces?

--Darin
Like I have found recently with bass, that rather than homogenous is best felt multidirectional. Directional Bass >

Light is best directed from screen back to audience using in projection opticAL SCREENS, dnp REAR SCREENS, TORUS AND NOW THE REAL ULTIMATE fp SCREEN.

These screens create their own shadowbox by not spewing that horrendous haze to the sides that munity gain screens have when they kick back the light to the most ridiculous place of them all , the sides and top bottom immediately in front of screen, talking about something pulling you out of the image, there is no material dark enough in the universe to eliminate this distraction, i find these velvet rooms so quaint but they are only 95% effective, directional light solves that, and aides color volume and image depth.
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post #45 of 105 Old 09-18-2017, 08:33 AM
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Reposting here:

The Leyard video wall looked impressive from 5 ft. beyond.

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10 years might be a stretch - it only takes a quadrant of bezel-less oled wall paper and competition to bring that wall pricing down...i mean this isn't far-fetched.
Precisely. All LG need do is release a bezel-less iteration of their existing 77" OLED panel that's already in mass-production that can be fitted into a 2x2 configuration with accompanying processing that enables the single image across the 4 displays and boom! 154" 8K Dolby Vision HDR OLED Video Wall for circa $100,000

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Precisely. All LG need do is release a bezel-less iteration of their existing 77" OLED panel that's already in mass-production that can be fitted into a 2x2 configuration with accompanying processing that enables the single image across the 4 displays and boom! 154" 8K Dolby Vision HDR OLED Video Wall for circa $100,000
I hope I'm wrong, but it seems like it would be a challenge for them to make and keep the seams invisible, especially with how OLED pixels age.

--Darin
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I hope I'm wrong, but it seems like it would be a challenge for them to make and keep the seams invisible, especially with how OLED pixels age.

--Darin
If ever, I would think it'll be similar to Leyard's - I still see the seams...but it's unobtrusive from a distance.

the challenging part might be how to keep them uniformed to a t...
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If ever, I would think it'll be similar to Leyard's - I still see the seams...but it's unobtrusive from a distance.
+1 This ^^^^

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the challenging part might be how to keep them uniformed to a t...
That's no different than with these modular video walls, where all that's involved is computing where each of the panels 'talks' to eachother constantly, thereby through video processing not only displaying the single image across all panels but also maintaining uniformity.

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post #50 of 105 Old 09-19-2017, 12:30 AM
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Seen the second itteration of the 130" 8K sheet OLED. Bezelless apparantly not that simple.

Nigel, what are those new and exiting Unilumin products you are referring to, had a long conversation, due to a lot of confusion;-).

Did I get that thick brochure or did they keep it... Contrast 3000:1 or 5000:1.

Issue with any OLED non-uniform aging, would be that it is not modular, so one can not swap a misbehaving/differently aging, module.
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post #51 of 105 Old 09-19-2017, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Like I have found recently with bass, that rather than homogenous is best felt multidirectional. Directional Bass >

Light is best directed from screen back to audience using in projection opticAL SCREENS, dnp REAR SCREENS, TORUS AND NOW THE REAL ULTIMATE fp SCREEN.

These screens create their own shadowbox by not spewing that horrendous haze to the sides that munity gain screens have when they kick back the light to the most ridiculous place of them all , the sides and top bottom immediately in front of screen, talking about something pulling you out of the image, there is no material dark enough in the universe to eliminate this distraction, i find these velvet rooms so quaint but they are only 95% effective, directional light solves that, and aides color volume and image depth.
I am willing to let my Torus go to a home that can accomodate it.
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post #52 of 105 Old 09-19-2017, 02:09 AM
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Seen the second itteration of the 130" 8K sheet OLED. Bezelless apparantly not that simple.

Nigel, what are those new and exiting Unilumin products you are referring to, had a long conversation, due to a lot of confusion;-).

Did I get that thick brochure or did they keep it... Contrast 3000:1 or 5000:1.

Issue with any OLED non-uniform aging, would be that it is not modular, so one can not swap a misbehaving/differently aging, module.
In which case that's another advantage of the new emissive next generation technologies such as MicroLED, as compared with OLED... I'll add it to the already long list.

So if bezel-less OLED panels are a no-go then we're back to waiting for the 120"+ sized OLED TVs to arrive 2020/2021+ and in the meantime the video wall manufacturers to produce a product that's properly viable for home theater/cinema use, within the circa 3-4 years that they have the market to themselves. It's a certainty that those TVs are coming so the pertinent question is, can the video wall manufacturers produce a viable product at the right price that is needed in order to secure a portion of this expanding niche market? We shall see.

Further to microLED we are still waiting for emissive QLED to make an appearance, which is another interesting next generation technology that's of interest and has potential. Any sign of that appearing yet?

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Nope Samsung bought up everything proper QLED.

As for a unified sheet display, they are working on it, but it is not something done by simply cutting off the bezel of currentproduct, there still is a gap. So give it a few years. 130" as is the NHK led Super Hi-vision ecosytem target is a nice livingroom size. I went there first thing so it was still quiet friday and I could sit there on the little bench right in front of the screen. Sunday it was packed.

Did you see/hear the Fraunhofer soundbar at CEDIA?
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Cool Oles 130? that will be the day......................

Besides it requires a dark room for best performance, CLEDIS just cuts right through any light! And let's not discuss the horrible yellowing and burn in, yes for us paupers 130 OLED would be nice, but the high end belongs to CLEDIS.

WORLD'S FIRST DOLBY-PH

Here is my 2600 by 1300 3.3 MP 2.0 ar cledis early design concept.Those obsessed with 4k, take a ticket and talk to my hand, have you seen cledis at 5.5 feet away you are only seeing about 2mp. so quiet kids. World's finest hdr wcg screening room witha view.





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post #55 of 105 Old 09-19-2017, 11:31 AM
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Reposting here:

Precisely. All LG need do is release a bezel-less iteration of their existing 77" OLED panel that's already in mass-production that can be fitted into a 2x2 configuration with accompanying processing that enables the single image across the 4 displays and boom! 154" 8K Dolby Vision HDR OLED Video Wall for circa $100,000


OLED isnt very suited to tiling. the peak luminance of OLED changes depending on how much of the display is showing white. An example.. a 100IRE window displayed on 25% of the screen would measure much brighter than 100IRE full field.


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Reposting here

Please take what I have said as constructive criticism and not being dismissive. My company specializes in high-end home audiovisual and the sort of comments and observations that I have been saying are precisely the sort of discussion we will be having with some of our high-end clients and customers, who will wish to know for example whether the product performs as well as their TV and/or other similar products on the market.

There is definitely a market for seamless modular 4K HDR video walls with respect to the high-end domestic home theater/cinema market. However, these products are going to need to be able to hold their own against stiff competition from other video display products. If you are confident that your product ticks all the right boxes as far as what consumers are looking for and will hold its own as compared with the competition then we'd absolutely love to learn more about your product.
It early days in the world of fine pitch LED. no on disputes that native 4K signal support and HDR support would be welcome additions. We didnt leave those features out due to oversight. All in good time.

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So, thank you for your further information and clarification with respect to the video performance specifications of your product.

Firstly, I must disagree with your statement that "peak brightness and contrast is all a bit of a marketing game" given both of these parameters are all-important with respect to video performance.
No doubt. But many customers choose peak luminance as the ONLY spec that matters. Its important, but sometimes the published specs can't be trusted, as you know. Our numbers can be trusted.


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Other important aspects include: Minimum 100% of DCI P3 Colorspace; Support for both 10-bit and 12-bit Colour Depth; Support for 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 chroma subsampling; good response times and low input lag; full HDR compatibility and support with respect to all of HDR10, Dolby Vision, and HDR10+; support for High Frame Rates (HFR) including 60fps and 120fps; and support for 3D etc. etc. It is these criteria which are the demand of consumers and pre-existing consumer video displays offer these. Some consumer video displays don't yet support Dolby Vision or HDR10+ but it's heading that way and it's important for any high-end video display product, as yours clearly is, to support everything that's applicable to the high-end of video, so that means ideally your product should be supporting all of these.
All in good time. Again, they were not left out due to oversight.

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With respect to your current marketing information (such as your product specification/technical information sheet here: http://www.planar.com/products/led-v...d%20TWA0.9.pdf and your product brochure here http://www.planar.com/media/436602/l...re_07-2017.pdf) it would appear that your product has been developed for the commercial/professional industry and you are exploring the possibility and/or seeking to sell it into the domestic home theater industry.
Indeed. the commercial/pro/ industry represents the lions share of business for our DVLED product. Im sure that the other DVLED manufacturers would say the same. We make it available to all customers, including residential, as it represents a solution to issues that other technologies may not be able to address.

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As such, given the further information and clarification that you've just posted, my comment is that you should consider producing new marketing information, such as a new marketing brochure accordingly, because at the present time your as far as the domestic home theater industry is concerned your product specification sheet and brochure leave a lot to be desired, don't do your product the justice it deserves, and necessitates a further education step to attain the level of information that it should be communicating in the first place.
Marketing the product directly to residential is complicated, due to FCC class ratings. Im not aware of any DVLED products that have FCC class B certification. As such, DVLED cannot be marketed as "for home use". This doesn't mean you cannot buy one and use it in your home. High end commercial projectors that lack FCC class B are sold into the home all the time. However it does prevent us for marketing a product in a certain way. We do have case studies on our website that show home installations. But we have to careful about implying indirectly that it meets FCC class B standards.

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I think that your product has great potential. In its present form and with respect to the current marketing information there are issues, regarding which I have already commented. However, I think that if you take the necessary steps from here to ensure that it ticks all the right boxes performance-wise and compliance-wise, as well producing some proper marketing information that's optimized for the consumer home theater industry, then your product has the potential to be successful, regarding which we wish you the very best.
The "issues" you describe are better described as "limitations given the current state of the art in this given technology." Comparing DVLED to what a 77" OLED can do is apples and oranges, I dont think any one is disagreeing that support for all the latest standards, 4K, 4:4:4, HDR, etc, would be ideal additions

Fine pitch DVLED is an emerging catagory, and there is lots of room for growth, to be sure. What we showed at CEDIA (this year and in years prior) really made a statement that the technolgy is improving dramatically, and the improvements are coming apart, not YEARS.
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post #56 of 105 Old 09-19-2017, 12:18 PM
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Thanks for posting more information J`eremySt.

One of the things that is confusing some of us is the specified 6k:1 CR. What does that mean?

Is that the maximum CR between a white pixel on black simultaneously for a single panel? If not, can you tell us what that CR is? That is basically what many of us call "native on/off CR".

Thanks,
Darin
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6k is 1k more cr. than the samsung cinema screen,where they do stuff with hdr EOTF tweak to enhance blacks..

.9 is the perfect size for my target market. These high end PH Home Cinemas can be written off as a business so not to worry about class b..

I wonder how tone mapping of uhd hdr signals would look on the leyard, I bet awesome.

Is 4ook the used show floor demo price, or a dealer demo price? Or list price. Please advice.
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post #58 of 105 Old 09-19-2017, 04:10 PM
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Thanks for posting more information J`eremySt.

One of the things that is confusing some of us is the specified 6k:1 CR. What does that mean?

Is that the maximum CR between a white pixel on black simultaneously for a single panel? If not, can you tell us what that CR is? That is basically what many of us call "native on/off CR".

Thanks,
Darin


Traditionally, (as established by the LCD industry), contrast in the display has been defined as a simple ratio of white luminance/black luminance with the measurement done in a completely black room.

With DVLED, the black luminance is 0 nits... so contrast is infinite. So the calling out of a specific number is a (6000:1) is somewhat subjective. no manufacturer that im aware of publishes the exact system they used to measure contrast, so every number you read is a "marketing game". Most people do not view their displays in completely black room with treated walls, so a contrast spec that only applies to black rooms (infinite, millions, hundreds of thousands to one) are not very useful. "Real life" contrast is impacted most by ambient light reflecting off the surface of the display. Trying to explain this to readers of a spec sheet is not very easily done, especially considering that the different results can be measured from diffuse and specular light sources.

LCD and OLED displays typically have a glossy surface, which can come in handy when the ambient light is off axis from the display, but can render the display useless in very dynamically light rooms (retail, museums, , etc). DVLED displays can also vary in their in production. Coarser pixel pitches (1.5MM and above) typically have pixel shaders (black area between LEDs) which mean theyll be less reflective in ambient light than a 1.2MM pitch that lacks shaders. This means the 1.2 and 1.5 contrast ratio measurement is completely dependent on the ambient light in the room. even if the 1.2 mm is running at twice the luminance of the 1.5 , the 1.5 will have a higher contrast ratio if measured in an environment with some ambient light. Two displays that measure identically in a pitch black room may be wildely different in modest lighting. Adding shaders and glossy surfaces to LED can increase their apparent contrast in ambient light, but in reality, they actuall make the overall image dimmer, in exchange for preserving contrast in ambient light.

So thats the marketing game. do you measure it like a projector? in a pitch black room? or do you measure it like an LCD display, which is a somewhat irrelevant method compared to DVLED? Or do yo usimply publish a number that seems reasonable, and is comparable to other products in the category. The core issue is that there are no standard methods of measuring real life contrast that are generally accepted by the display industry, and nobody wants to be the first to publish a real life contrast spec, since the low number would reflect badly on the product compared to the competitor's dark room contrast spec, especially since customers don't understand contrast.

For comparisons sake, i looked up the CR of several other DVLEDs. Christie, unilumen and Absen all claim 3000:1.

$400,000 was the approximate MSRP of the 162" wall we showed at CEDIA.

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post #59 of 105 Old 09-19-2017, 05:10 PM
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no manufacturer that im aware of publishes the exact system they used to measure contrast ...
If they didn't "cheat" IMO, then they don't need to. They can measure on/off CR correctly and report that number. Sometimes that will be a dynamic on/off CR, in which case we generally like to see the dynamic system shut off for native on/off CR, but that can get a little bit complicated with flat panels with multiple zones. For projectors I don't know of any that don't allow the dynamic system to be turned off so that we can measure the native on/off CR.
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Most people do not view their displays in completely black room with treated walls, so the a contrast spec that applies only applies to black rooms (infinite, millions, hundreds of thousands to one) are not very useful.
This is a common misconception in the industry. It doesn't hold up to basic math. What matters here is whether you have other lighting. If you have white walls they could reflect even 10% of the light back to the screen and the on/off CR would be the same. 1.1x/1.1y is exactly the same as x/y and blackouts are relevant to white rooms also. ANSI CR is affected by room reflections, but unless there is some other issue (like lights on or light streaming through windows) on/off CR is basically not.

The black pedestal from on/off CR is relevant to white rooms without other lighting as when watching content like an episode of Game Of Thrones where the average luminance over a whole episode may be around 1%, there generally isn't a lot of light to bounce around and raise the black floor, especially in the scenes that are darker than 1% average.
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So thats the marketing game. do you measure it like a projector? in a pitch black room?
You can publish multiple numbers, but I want to know what the display itself can do (not the room), so yes, I would like the number for having room lights off. It should not require a black room, just that you measure 0 light off the screen if you turn the display off. At that point you can measure a full white image and a full black image for the total on/off CR. If panels are dimmed when they get an all black image, but not when a single pixel is on, then I would like to know the ratio between that single pixel and black. If the dynamic system can be turned off then this is basically the measurement of a white image and then a black image.
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The core issue is that there are no standard methods of measuring real life contrast that are generally accepted by the display industry, ...
Unfortunately there are a lot of misconception by "experts" in the industry about contrast ratio. Anybody who listens to INFOCOMM on the subject matter is likely to be misled. For those who didn't already know how to measure on/off CR correctly I think one of the sections in the ICDM has how to measure that. I know we have one for measuring on/off CR with projectors.
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and nobody wants to be the first to publish a real life contrast spec, since the low number would reflect badly on the product compared to the competitor's dark room contrast spec, especially since customers don't understand contrast.
I consider on/off CR in a room without other lighting to be a real life contrast spec for the display, although there is the dynamic vs native issue that we discussed.
Quote:
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For comparisons sake, i looked up the CR of several other DVLEDs. Christie, unilumen and Absen all claim 3000:1.
That makes me think they can't actually do more than 3k:1 between a white pixel and a black background on the same panel. Otherwise they should spec things higher and say it is a form of on/off CR. If they are measuring ANSI CR then they should say that, but in this case I think the native on/off CR matters more as all of these should have plenty of ANSI CR, but may be limited for native on/off CR.

If your display can do significantly higher than 6k:1 between a white pixel and a black background on just one of the panels in a room without other lighting then I think you should specify that. If it can't then I understand only specifying that much.

JVC has done a pretty good job getting some people to understand native on/off CR, IMO. At least around here.

If you can tell us the approximate contrast ratio you can do between a white pixel and a black background on the same panel in a room without other lighting (black room or white room is pretty close to irrelevant), that would be great.

Thanks,
Darin

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post #60 of 105 Old 09-19-2017, 05:28 PM
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3000:1 for the finest pitches and 5000:1 for the somewhat less fine upanels, is what the brochure I was shown said on the Unilumins.

So $200K dealer price. Does that include the dealer suppport Leyard has been offering, basicaly design assistance and installation?

Last edited by donaldk; 09-19-2017 at 05:59 PM.
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