Leyard TWA0.9 LED Video Wall at CEDIA 2017 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 105 Old 09-12-2017, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Leyard TWA0.9 LED Video Wall at CEDIA 2017

The Leyard TWA0.9 LED video wall at CEDIA measured 162" diagonally with 4K/UHD resolution and a peak brightness of 400-500 nits. It was spectacular.

http://www.avsforum.com/leyard-twa0-...ll-cedia-2017/
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post #2 of 105 Old 09-12-2017, 12:44 PM
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I'll buy that for a dollar
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post #3 of 105 Old 09-12-2017, 02:38 PM
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I've always felt this sort of modular system was the natural replacement for projection and a cure to the size limitation of flatscreens... aaaaand then I saw the price.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
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post #4 of 105 Old 09-12-2017, 04:44 PM
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Next to rollable OLED that drops from the ceiling, this is what I want to replace my LCD projection setup.
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post #5 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 05:38 AM
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Direct LED moving into cinema space

Hi Scott, I went to Infocomm last year to see the Planar 1.2mm at 18' x 32'. An 8K display. That's the same pitch as CLEDIS. The Planar was a retail value of just over $2mil in 2016. That's about half the cost per square foot of CLEDIS quotes I've heard. Today the same Planar display is just over $1m. Of course the 0.9 is almost $3m for the same size display!

As you mention, it is interesting to look at scope formats for movie exhibition, home or commercial. The Samsung CinemaScreen is a 2.4mm pitch, hence 4K at 18x31'. Add 2 more columns and you have an 18 x 43.5' wall at 2160 x 5280. That's a 2.40 native display, and much more applicable to a cinema environment. There are a lot of rooms, 150 seat or so, with 45' wide screens. There are very few with only 30' wide screens. The 2.4mm category is cheaper of course. Perhaps $750K for that screen. Around 5 times too much for theater owners I suspect!

It so happens I'm doing a Planar showing tomorrow to expose dealers here in the North East to this new technology. On a residential scale we can start with the 1.2mm tech and show 1080x2560 native scope, 2K at $120K msrp. Tall grass, but remember that Samsung 105" as I recall. At about the same price?

These direct LED displays have better uniformity and white field purity than LCD anything, and folks like Joe Kane are working on standards for cinema using this tech. Direct LED transcends TV and moves right into the art and science of the movies. We're starting to see pictures that are worthy, and can be used as video displays in bright environments as well. It's going to be fun to design around them.
Nice seeing you at CEDIA.
Cheers,
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post #6 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 05:47 AM
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Note, that 1.2mm at 1080 x 2560 is a 2x3 panel wall at 5' high by 12' wide.
For reference, a 0.9mm pitch wall at 5K native scope (2160 x 5120), is 7' high x 16' wide. That's an impressive size, and the same pixel format as the Barco 5K native scope projectors they've just introduced, like the Loki and Balder. A Loki with a Stewart Filmscreen VistaScope side masking model would approach $100k. The Direct LED 4K wall is a cool $525K. There's that 5 to one cost ratio again!
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post #7 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 07:08 AM
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Really, earlier that year Lang AG showed it at ISE, and Lang told Wolfgang it was below €1 million, something like 8-900K excluding VAT.

Yeah, Leyard told me what $42K per m2 at some point, with the promise of quarterly renewed pricelists;-). Of course this is not the real price.

At IBC a year ago Sony Europe told me CLEDIS was orderable (pre-launch) at €65K per m2.

Yeah every 0.3mm lower pitch roughly doubles the price per m2, as it almost doubles the number of LEDs.

However it is only a 50% premium over the Barco Thor. And that is the market Direct View LED is competing in for HT, for now.

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post #8 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 07:25 AM
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$400,000 for 162" 4K? holyyyyy direct-view LEDs so expensive but worth it if I were rich
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post #9 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 09:45 AM
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Yea, these sound expensive even for theaters but folks building homes could include this in the mortgage. Bad news about any new technology is it's old fast and the more you pay the more absurd the cost appears over time.


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post #10 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 12:06 PM
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Hence the 2.5mm pitch, so much less expensive compared to 1.2mm let alone 0.9 or 0.7. Given the 4K source material and the screen size required for commercial theater a sensical decission, eventhough samsung also sells 2 and 1.5 mm displays in the indoor commercial display range.
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post #11 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 12:21 PM
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I've got a 30 sec. video of this but have trouble attaching the file.
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post #12 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 12:26 PM
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Video walls have a way to go before they're viable domestically... That Leyard LED video wall has peak luminance of 600nits and represents a bit of a step backwards as compared with both OLED and MicroLED (CLEDIS). It's 0.9mm pixel pitch is certainly a considerable step forward as compared with Samsung's 'Cinema Screen' product that's a whopping 2.5mm and hence by no means suitable for domestic use due pixel visibility at typical HT proximity viewing distances. However, with the Leyard, it's very expensive! CLEDIS is also very expensive, even more expensive in fact, but that seemingly offers superior video performance. As far as Leyard is concerned, at $400,000+ for a circa 160" screen, no thank you... I'll simply wait a year or two until LG begins manufacturing its giant sized OLED panels and buy one of those for a fraction of the cost.

These giant video walls need to at least match the performance of consumer displays if they are to be of interest for domestic use... CLEDIS ticks all the right boxes as far as performance is concerned, it's just too damn expensive at the present time. I'm still waiting for someone to roll out a product that competes with Sony's CLEDIS... First impressions are that the Leyard isn't that product.

I was more impressed by this 173" 1.0mm pixel pitch 4K video wall product by LG at ISE 2017, which IMO looked better than this Leyard... 1,000 nits peak luminosity with full field white 235 versus Leyard's 600 nits:






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post #13 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
That Leyard LED video wall has peak luminosity of only 400-500nits and represents a significant step backwards as compared with both OLED and MicroLED (CLEDIS).
Isn't it still about 4 times brighter than Dolby Vision HDR projection? I kept hearing that the large screens excused the low brightness of projected HDR vs. HDR on LCD and OLED. Here you can get a screen much larger than OLED or LCD, is still much brighter than HDR projection, but it's a step backward?
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That Leyard LED video wall has peak luminance of 600nits and represents a bit of a step backwards as compared with both OLED and MicroLED (CLEDIS).
Isn't it still about 4 times brighter than Dolby Vision HDR projection? I kept hearing that the large screens excused the low brightness of projected HDR vs. HDR on LCD and OLED. Here you can get a screen much larger than OLED or LCD, is still much brighter than HDR projection, but it's a step backward?
Try reading my post properly... particuarly the part which I've highlighted in bold and underlined for you ^^^^

Further to this, to elaborate, it's a step forward as compared with home theater projectors, but it's a step backwards as compared with other competing large size video displays

And FYI there is no proper HDR projection as of right now, except for one singular commercial cinema projector and one singular home theater projector


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post #15 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 05:17 PM
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Try reading my post properly... particuarly the part which I've highlighted in bold and underlined for you ^^^^

Further to this, to elaborate, it's a step forward as compared with home theater projectors, but it's a step backwards as compared with other competing large size video displays

And FYI there is no proper HDR projection as of right now, except for one singular commercial cinema projector and one singular home theater projector

1) There are OLEDs larger than 77"? Can you point them out to me?

2) Are you really suggesting that a large video wall in a dark room used in place of projection needs more than 500 nits? If not, why does it matter?
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1) There are OLEDs larger than 77"? Can you point them out to me?
LG recently invested a huge amount of money in attaining the ability to manufacture OLED panels with almost no size limit. Furthermore, LG has informed us that they will imminently commence manufacture of giant sized OLED panels with products to be released into the market shortly thereafter.

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2) Are you really suggesting that a large video wall in a dark room used in place of projection needs more than 500 nits? If not, why does it matter?
Video walls are most akin to TVs, not projectors... Are you really suggesting that TVs don't need more than 500 nits peak luminance?

Furthermore, you should note that the 100" Sony Z9D/ZD9 has a peak luminance of 2,500 nits. And yes, you read that correctly.


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Are you really suggesting that TVs don't need more than 500 nits peak luminosity?
No, I'm not. I'm saying that 500 nits for a video wall being used as a replacement for front projection doesn't seem like the huge soul crushing compromise you make it out to be.
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post #18 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 06:21 PM
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No, I'm not. I'm saying that 500 nits for a video wall being used as a replacement for front projection doesn't seem like the huge soul crushing compromise you make it out to be.
Firstly, video walls aren't a replacement for front projection any more than they are a replacement for TVs; in that video walls are/will be simply a third type of video display product that will co-exist with projectors and TVs whenever launched into the domestic market.

Secondly, again, not meaning any disrespect but please kindly go and read my posts properly. Where if you do you will note that I have not in fact made it out to be a 'huge soul crushing compromise', have I? What I have actually done is to factually accurately report the objective facts with respect to how this product performs as compared with other competing products and correctly point out that there are numerous other products, both currently available and in the pipeline, that offer and/or will offer significantly superior video performance in more ways than one.

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post #19 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 06:32 PM
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Video walls have a way to go before they're viable domestically...

These giant video walls need to at least match the performance of consumer displays if they are to be of interest for domestic use...
I think the problem is that this post made it look like you thought they have a long way to go to replace consumer displays, which include projectors, but for the brightness that is only a problem against TVs. If you had said TV replacements then there would have been less argument.

They are likely a ways from being good replacements for projectors, but brightness isn't really a valid reason vs those.

I'm much less optomistic than you about LG's ability to deliver huge OLEDs without big issues in the timeframe you mentioned.

Also, looking at the picture of the 1000 nit wall that you preferred, that looks like a much more light controlled environment than the wall at CEDIA.

In a black velvet room with a display 10' wide or larger I wouldn't pay much for 1000 nit peaks over 500 nit peaks. The content should still be way under 100 nits average and the 500 vs 1000 is just 2x for highlights. Our eyes are good at seeing differences, but not good at absolutes. I think 500 nits would be enough for me and with tone mapping I doubt I would miss the 2x highlight thing all that much.

If the room has no light, little reflection, and the display can do true black, 500 nits is already quite a bit IMO. It could look much brighter at times than people watching 1000 nits in a living room.

--Darin
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post #20 of 105 Old 09-13-2017, 07:37 PM
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I think the problem is that this post made it look like you thought they have a long way to go to replace consumer displays, which include projectors, but for the brightness that is only a problem against TVs. If you had said TV replacements then there would have been less argument
Darin, regarding the post to which you refer there is no mention nor discussion regarding projectors at all whatsoever; and additionally, there’s no mention of ‘replacing’ anything either. I am exclusively talking about comparative video panel type products, namely other video wall products and TVs, where my mention of 'consumer displays' is clearly referring to these, not projectors which I haven't even mentioned.

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I'm much less optomistic than you about LG's ability to deliver huge OLEDs without big issues in the timeframe you mentioned.
Well that’s what LG told us and they’ve told the world too via a number of press releases, wherein here’s a taste of what they’ve said:

"LG To Invest Billions More In Making OLED 4K TV Tech Huge.
LG Electronics has now publicly announced that it will be investing a further $13.5 billion USD in production and development of new organic light emitting diode displays over the next three years. A large part of this money will be used to cement the company’s major lead in the large-sized OLED TV display panel market... The company will be spending a total of $7 billion on production of OLED smartphone and TV displays over the next year LG will spend a further $2.5 billion on developing new lines of larger OLED screens mainly for the TV market.
"

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Also, looking at the picture of the 1000 nit wall that you preferred, that looks like a much more light controlled environment than the wall at CEDIA.
In reality the ambient light levels were higher that it would appear in the photos.

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In a black velvet room with a display 10' wide or larger I wouldn't pay much for 1000 nit peaks over 500 nit peaks. The content should still be way under 100 nits average and the 500 vs 1000 is just 2x for highlights. Our eyes are good at seeing differences, but not good at absolutes. I think 500 nits would be enough for me and with tone mapping I doubt I would miss the 2x highlight thing all that much.
View Sony’s CLEDIS (1,000 nits peak full field white 235) and/or a 100" Sony Z9D/ZD9 (2,500 nits peak) properly setup and calibrated within a blacked out room and I think there’s a very good chance you’ll change your mind about that.


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post #21 of 105 Old 09-14-2017, 09:13 AM
 
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Cool

Nice form factor to be sure..9 The first sony cledis home cinema will be atop the omni san diego with a cineramax designed alcons screen frame L, LC,C,RC,R over under array. They better get on the hdr backwagen quickly if they want to sell systems. Samsung does hdr already as well as sony cledus.

By 2019 I will be doing these types of systems exclusively, what I call dolby-PH. Immersive Overlook penthouse systems with a view.
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post #22 of 105 Old 09-14-2017, 02:46 PM
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Well that’s what LG told us and they’ve told the world too via a number of press releases, wherein here’s a taste of what they’ve said:

"LG To Invest Billions More In Making OLED 4K TV Tech Huge.
LG Electronics has now publicly announced that it will be investing a further $13.5 billion USD in production and development of new organic light emitting diode displays over the next three years. A large part of this money will be used to cement the company’s major lead in the large-sized OLED TV display panel market... The company will be spending a total of $7 billion on production of OLED smartphone and TV displays over the next year LG will spend a further $2.5 billion on developing new lines of larger OLED screens mainly for the TV market.
"
LG told you it would be a year? Your "I'll simply wait a year" sounded way too optimistic to me, but I don't have my finger on the pulse of that market. Some people on the OLED forum seem to and I think rogo over there has been very good at predicting some timeframes in the past. So, I asked over there and here is what I got from rogo:
Quote:
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When do you guys expect to see OLED TVs from LG in sizes around say 100", then around 120"?
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Answer: Yes, but not for quite some time. The new fab needs to be constructed (mostly next year), ramped (mostly 2019), etc.

Giant TVs seem like an inevitable offering, but 2020-21 seems like the timeframe.
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View Sony’s CLEDIS (1,000 nits peak) and/or a 100" Sony Z9D/ZD9 (2,500 nits peak) properly setup and calibrated within a blacked out room and I think there’s a very good chance you’ll change your mind about that.
I doubt that. I've been hearing that for about a dozen years, starting with a VP at Brightside (who was doing HDR and who Dolby bought) who was pushing the position that images on the screen should be at the same levels as in real life. I told him that the ability to make things bright would be nice, but for movies and I content I was more likely to want the blacks to be closer to real life (where no visible light situations are pretty easy to produce) and in that case I definitely did not want the bright scenes to be at the same level as real life. Movies and TV shows show events that happen over long periods of time (weeks, months, and years). In real life I don't go to the beach for 3 minutes, then a cave for 3 minutes, then the beach for 3 minutes, but that kind of thing happens in movies. Even if I did that I would generally have sunglasses (like when driving through tunnels on a bright day). Our eyes are not made for those quick transitions. In real life you normally get some time to adjust (even if it is a small amount).

What I see are vendors showing things are tradeshows and demos than are much brighter than content is normally supposed to be (even HDR) and that is fun for a few minutes, but not anything like I would really want for watching for extended periods in a black velvet room. They tend to use slow moving natures stuff or the cleanest movies they can find, not movies with film grain (or a digital version of it), at hundreds of nits.

My OLED doesn't do 1000 nits and I still turn the thing down. And for highlights I honestly don't think 2x from 500 nits to 1000 nits is all that big a deal. As I mentioned, our eyes are good at relative things. Go from a dark scene to a scene with highlights at 500 nits and they are still pretty bright if your display can do true black and your room is black. 2x may sound like a lot, but in vision terms it isn't all that big if it is just for small parts of the image. Of course, 2500 is a much bigger multiplier and some would pay a lot for 2500 nit peaks vs 500, and I would pay something, but not sure I would pay that much for that in a blacked out room.

Some of the worst advice I've seen in home theater is that if things are too bright then I should use backlighting. If I have a display that can do actual blackouts, why the heck would I want to ruin those blackouts by using backlighting just to get some more brighter highlights that are relative anyway? With a display that can do no better than gray it makes some sense, but backlighting takes away the blackout ability that many of us strive for, because it can happen in real life and we believe it adds something positive to the experience.

On a show floor with overhead lights like at CEDIA 500, 1000 nits, or even higher, is no big deal, but sit watching a movie for a while with dark scenes and then go to bright scenes, and I don't want any more than small highlights getting too bright or it is just annoying to me. Even with HDR the average movie scenes shouldn't be even 20 nits, so any of these manufacturers showing demos where they've raised the average higher than that (not just highlights) is showing the content differently than it was mastered and specified to be displayed.

When I saw that first HDR set 12 years ago I had a headache within 20 minutes. When I saw a Dolby demo of HDR in a black room with some stuff from one of the Superman movies with lots of explosions I started getting a headache within just a few minutes.

I understand that many others are attracted to bright, but I think that even if these video walls maxed out at 500 nits they would be viable for many homes, if the prices were lower and any other issues were taken care of. I think you'll be waiting a lot longer than you think for a 120" OLED to be available, although it would be great if that weren't the case.

--Darin

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i HATE BEING IN A DARK ROOM

Ok I got that out of my chest.

CLEDIS is far more captivating than OLED ever will be.

OLED has a very very serious BURN IN Problem, how do they solve it? Gyrating the pixels, NOT A Solution.

The next gen Master panel from OLED will be 9 feet wide, they will make 2 x 98" out of it with the spoilage.That will be generally available in 2021, however there is a high risk of conflict in the country of manufacture so best case scenario 21 for a 98, a 120 25.
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post #24 of 105 Old 09-15-2017, 05:40 AM
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LG told you it would be a year? Your "I'll simply wait a year" sounded way too optimistic to me, but I don't have my finger on the pulse of that market. Some people on the OLED forum seem to and I think rogo over there has been very good at predicting some timeframes in the past. So, I asked over there and here is what I got from rogo:
Believe what you like Darin. LG has informed us they intend to commence manufacturing of larger sized OLED panels within the timeframe stipulated and reirerated by LG in their press releases. Of course there is always the possibility of slippage and things taking longer than expected, however as of CEDIA 2017 that's what LG have stated they are working towards. So, 2019-ish is when we expect to be seeing these. Either way, it would appear you and I are only debating a circa 12-month difference... so you're splitting hairs.

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I doubt that. I've been hearing that for about a dozen years, starting with a VP at Brightside (who was doing HDR and who Dolby bought) who was pushing the position that images on the screen should be at the same levels as in real life. I told him that the ability to make things bright would be nice, but for movies and I content I was more likely to want the blacks to be closer to real life (where no visible light situations are pretty easy to produce) and in that case I definitely did not want the bright scenes to be at the same level as real life. Movies and TV shows show events that happen over long periods of time (weeks, months, and years). In real life I don't go to the beach for 3 minutes, then a cave for 3 minutes, then the beach for 3 minutes, but that kind of thing happens in movies. Even if I did that I would generally have sunglasses (like when driving through tunnels on a bright day). Our eyes are not made for those quick transitions. In real life you normally get some time to adjust (even if it is a small amount).

What I see are vendors showing things are tradeshows and demos than are much brighter than content is normally supposed to be (even HDR) and that is fun for a few minutes, but not anything like I would really want for watching for extended periods in a black velvet room. They tend to use slow moving natures stuff or the cleanest movies they can find, not movies with film grain (or a digital version of it), at hundreds of nits.

My OLED doesn't do 1000 nits and I still turn the thing down. And for highlights I honestly don't think 2x from 500 nits to 1000 nits is all that big a deal. As I mentioned, our eyes are good at relative things. Go from a dark scene to a scene with highlights at 500 nits and they are still pretty bright if your display can do true black and your room is black. 2x may sound like a lot, but in vision terms it isn't all that big if it is just for small parts of the image. Of course, 2500 is a much bigger multiplier and some would pay a lot for 2500 nit peaks vs 500, and I would pay something, but not sure I would pay that much for that in a blacked out room.

Some of the worst advice I've seen in home theater is that if things are too bright then I should use backlighting. If I have a display that can do actual blackouts, why the heck would I want to ruin those blackouts by using backlighting just to get some more brighter highlights that are relative anyway? With a display that can do no better than gray it makes some sense, but backlighting takes away the blackout ability that many of us strive for, because it can happen in real life and we believe it adds something positive to the experience.

On a show floor with overhead lights like at CEDIA 500, 1000 nits, or even higher, is no big deal, but sit watching a movie for a while with dark scenes and then go to bright scenes, and I don't want any more than small highlights getting too bright or it is just annoying to me. Even with HDR the average movie scenes shouldn't be even 20 nits, so any of these manufacturers showing demos where they've raised the average higher than that (not just highlights) is showing the content differently than it was mastered and specified to be displayed.

When I saw that first HDR set 12 years ago I had a headache within 20 minutes. When I saw a Dolby demo of HDR in a black room with some stuff from one of the Superman movies with lots of explosions I started getting a headache within just a few minutes.

I understand that many others are attracted to bright, but I think that even if these video walls maxed out at 500 nits they would be viable for many homes, if the prices were lower and any other issues were taken care of. I think you'll be waiting a lot longer than you think for a 120" OLED to be available, although it would be great if that weren't the case. --Darin
Darin, the major criticism of OLED displays by those who have historically preferred LCD technology TVs is that OLEDs have had limited peak luminance capabilities, which is why they've been sticking with LCD. Then there's the Average Brightness Limiter (ABL) that's necessary to handle the displaying of high Average Picture Level (APL) video content. Where what happens is when the demand of the video content, such as with HDR, outputs a high APL video scene that is beyond the TVs capability then the ABL activates and lowers the overall brightness of the image, squashing it. It is this phenomenon that has been a put-off for many people historically with respect to OLED TVs. However, with each and every year of OLED TV technology evolution the peak luminosity capabilites has evolved and increased to the extent that the new 2018 Philips OLED has 900 nits peak luminosity capability and the 2017 OLEDs have circa 800 nits. Where nowdays this particular issue has for all intensive purposes become a non-issue.

This means that in order to produce true apples-with-apples video performance as compared with the likes of the existing TVs these large scale video walls need to deliver at least the same video performance specifications. This Leyard video wall was of right not fails to do so. Pure and simple. And hence represents a step backwards as far as peak luminance capability is concerned.

But as far as you yourself are concerned, to summarize, you personally get a headache from HDR, even when a display is calibrated properly with respect to overall luminosity of full field white 235, and you don't value TVs with the high dynamic range luminance capability needed to display HDR properly. Is that a fair summation of your perspective? If so, then with the utmost respect, there's many folks who think otherwise. And if it's OK I'm not going to debate any further whether or not you need to have more than 600 nits peak luminance capability.

This particular video wall product currently falls between two chairs, in that it represents a significant step backwards as compared with existing leading-edge TVs, especially as compared with the 100" SONY ZD9/Z9D and 2017+ OLED TVs, where we are both agreed that 100"+ sized OLEDs are around the corner (i.e. within the next few years at the outset); and it also similarly represents a significant step backwards as compared with other directly competing modular large scale video wall products... For example, LG already have a wall that's bigger, brighter, and better; and LG are not alone in this regard. SiliconCore’s Camellia is 0.95MM Pixel Pitch with 1,200 nits peak luminance with full field white 235. And Unilumin have interesting products in the works too.

We quite simply cannot envisage any scenario where you would choose to buy this instead of another product that's better in more ways than one. This costs circa $400,000 ! You can right now buy a 100" SONY ZD9/Z9D for $60,000 and that's considered by many to be too expensive ! Let alone $400,000 ! Sorry, but I'll either wait for OLED TVs in sizes 100"+ to be released, whenever that is; or alternatively I'll opt for one of the alternative large scale video wall products that offer superior video performance, at similar or larger screen sizes. If I'm going to splash out a sizeable investment into a large scale video wall costing six figures then I'm going to be very fussy about what video performance I'm getting thank you very much.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp View Post
In real life I don't go to the beach for 3 minutes, then a cave for 3 minutes, then the beach for 3 minutes, but that kind of thing happens in movies. Even if I did that I would generally have sunglasses (like when driving through tunnels on a bright day). Our eyes are not made for those quick transitions. In real life you normally get some time to adjust (even if it is a small amount).


--Darin

I was generally agreeing with this concept, which was why I so loved 3D and d-box, now I am hooked on what a client of mine calls LEGAL CRACK, real HDR and wide color gamut, now i do not want anything in front of my eyes nor i want to be moved 1mm to lose for a nanosecond any of the enhanced perceived sharpness and realism that comes from the added color volume.

Darin man, CLEDIS is it, trust me.
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Darin man, CLEDIS is it, trust me.
+1 what he said ^^^^

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CLEDIS is far more captivating than OLED ever will be.
Absolutely agree with you about this Peter ! As far as we are concerned there's only one singular issue with CLEDIS, the cost ! You just cannot criticise its performance in any regard whatsoever. It's essentially pure video perfection in every way ! Who's going to be the first to install a CLEDIS wall in their living room, you, me, or Alan?


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+1 what he said ^^^^

Absolutely agree with you about this Peter ! As far as we are concerned there's only one singular issue with CLEDIS, the cost ! Who's going to be the first to install a CLEDIS wall in their living room, you, me, or Alan?

Well I am the pauper in the room, but i do get to play with the latest gadgets vicariously through my installations. Nest year I will have one or two installations completed by Q4. By that time i will have CLEDIS 720p. it will kill every (non-cledis or perhaps samsung hdr)home theater on the planet with just 720p.

Consider that I have found and corroborated with many, some luminaries from here, that any decent home theater should be designed for a very very small near midfield audience, 10 years from now, except for PLF's, a large theater with many seats it's to be considered a moron's expensive folley.

As it turns out who would have thought that THXMAN's Proteus was indeed the personal space envelopment ideal environ.

So those gargantuan projection screens people seek after, come with a big cost on sound envelopment, there are ways to do PLF right however it's so good to be in the near-mid field that people should reconsider. That leads the way for these DOLBY MICRO CINEMAS of utterly uncompromised performance, where the partial cledis is the very best. and in 4 year times you can quadruple your res, but this lets look at that blueish wishy washy out garbage that 99% of the projectors discussed here offer, If I was a dictator in a banana republic that would be cause for the firing squad. The Sheer idiocy and to think thousands of so called professionals go to these shows to look at this crap and then CRIMINALLY resell it for $100,000 dollars to unsuspecting americans. This is BS, a freaking mass genocide of PQ.

Cledis is the way, start partial. Comport your life in ways conducive to a HIGH FORMS OF SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR for yourself the Selfish Bastard and for yours, to go in a dark room to be TORTURED by the garbage these BL projectors show, is low low low. Sheer stupidity.

Want to know what a good picture is? since HDR wcg came out, put away the textbook, forget what you read in this forum, i'm sorry Darrin but your field of research on these garbage projectors is as low as some junkie discussing the different potencies of the garbage they are shooting in their veins, BOTH ARE THE SCOURGE OF MANKIND opiates and Blu Laser, an equally expensive pandemic.

Want to know what a good picture is?
Go to a tropical latitude,on an overlook,out the window on a beautiful day and demand a display that challenges your view, if it doesn't and you say it is ok to compromise then YOU ARE THE ANTI VIDEOPHILE. OLED nearfield is ok, but partial CLEDIS is here today, sell the watch collection, wine, extra cars, if your video image is not comparable to a great view, you are a loser, and part of the problem.

Because that display is your primary window to the world,and it is for entertainment information but also for you livelihood information both should be as compelling as they can be. if you are going to dress in a tux, barefoot is a no no. The HT is the tuxedo, projection (with the above mentioned possible exceptions with the real d, but still why pay 200 for something not perfect when 400 gets you perfect) is the absence of shoes and socks. Question everything, it's your life dummy! don't build the theater do a OLED micro dolby cinema with 18 speakers, infinitely more enjoyable, infinitely more enlightening. And about the center channel blah, blah, blah speak to my hand as you are a lazy a$$ idiot that are afraid of what is possbible, if not superior.



As you can sit 5.5 feet away from this what you are seeing is not the whole panel your field of vision is seeing hd or 1.5 times hd.

So.. Instead of selling 72 panels at $16,667 per panel, I can do the 1080p for 18 panels 1.77 native, or a 32 1.77 scaled or 40 2.2 aspect ratio scaled.

To bathe on you super-luxurious You must always zoom 2.37 to 2.0 anyways so the scaling is to be exploited except for full screen content.

It is not that expensive if you are doing a home theater now. The new alcons speakers go inside a frame around the screen.

That works perfect I already have implemented many times with the very worse acoustical screen that looks the best: Torus. If it works with torus an passes muster with TOP acousticians, you are being a fraidy cat insisting that a center channel cannot be superbly recreated from a frame array.



My message: Do it right or don't get out of bed, go on cryo because these projection systems being pushed down your throats are nothing but sheer and absolute garbage. I spit, regurgitate and defecate on the lot. With a possible exception of the Duo or the Barco Superkontrast modeled XENON, REAL BELGIAN MADE 1st Class Barco, not the Norwegian Proletariat class. And no reald ultimate screen? get out of the way cause I'm puking long. You might get doused.

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Video walls have a way to go before they're viable domestically... That Leyard LED video wall has peak luminance of only 400-500nits and represents a significant step backwards as compared with both OLED and MicroLED (CLEDIS).

If it wasnt clear from Scott's article, the Leyard .9 wall has a peak 0f 600 Nits. it was being displayed at around 400 nits at CEDIA. Keep in mind that those Nits are uniform, with a full white field displayed, not a brief burst.

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If it wasnt clear from Scott's article, the Leyard .9 wall has a peak 0f 600 Nits. it was being displayed at around 400 nits at CEDIA. Keep in mind that those Nits are uniform, with a full white field displayed, not a brief burst.
It looks like Scott's changed it... It previously said 400-500nits, now he's changed it to 600nits and "I was told the demo was running with a peak brightness in range of 400-500 nits"... Scott often changes his articles for accuracy (a good thing)

This is better but still no cigar... CLEDIS does over 1,000 nits, LG's video wall also, and SiliconCore’s Camellia does 1,200 nits, all with full field white 235. Not saying that the Leyard is a terrible product. I am simply stating (correctly) that there are other options which are better; and the superior video performance isn't limited to peak luminance either... No sir. The Leyard's Contrast Ratio is only 6,000:1... CLEDIS is over 1,000,000:1... That's over 160 times the contrast performance! Seriously. Sorry, but this product costs $400,000 and does not stand up to the competition. And that's not subjective opinion, but objective fact. You can't argue with video performance data. What's subjective is my opinion that I wouldn't pay $400,000 for something when there's better alternatives and soon ones that are quite a bit less expensive too.


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It looks like Scott's changed it... It previously said 400-500nits, now he's changed it to 600nits and "I was told the demo was running with a peak brightness in range of 400-500 nits"... Scott often changes his articles for accuracy (a good thing)

This is better but still no cigar... CLEDIS does over 1,000 nits, LG's video wall also, and SiliconCore’s Camellia does 1,200 nits, all with full field white 235. Not saying that the Leyard is a terrible product. I am simply stating (correctly) that there are other options which are better; and the superior video performance isn't limited to peak luminance either... No sir. The Leyard's Contrast Ratio is only 6,000:1... CLEDIS is over 1,000,000:1... That's over 160 times the contrast performance! Seriously. Sorry, but this product costs $400,000 and does not stand up to the competition. And that's not subjective opinion, but objective fact. You can't argue with video performance data. What's subjective is my opinion that I wouldn't pay $400,000 for something when there's better alternatives and soon ones that are quite a bit less expensive too.

The peak brightness and contrast is all a bit of a marketing game. Driving walls at higher levels is possible, but the penalties for noise/heat/power can be a bit rough. 600 Nits is an intentional limit we put on TWA, to keep power consumption reasonable, and also because 600 peak is more than enough for most of indoor applications. We could drive our walls up to 1000-1200 nits, but we choose not to in the TWA family because of those reasons. all LED walls can go to ZERO light output for black, so they all have "infinite" contrast, technically.

Relative to other products, there are pros and cons. The Sony is not available in .9 pitch, so 4k walls would not be possible in most residential settings. Also, the Sony has much more depth, heat, and noise.... which additionally limits the places you can put it. Leyard has front servicable .9 DVLED with an installed depth of <4". (DirectLight) For the well-heeled, it can replace a flat panel or projection system in most residential settings.

TWA is made up of 4"deep cabinets, so that, plus your mounts, could mean installed depths under 12".

The Sony has a textured glossy surface, which doesn't come without its tradeoffs. It looks good, for sure, but as a product, it comes with some additional obstacles, relative to Leyard, that the integrator must consider.

As a company, we dont see what Sony is doing as having much of an impact on our core markets. The Sony isnt even in the conversation with most of our clients, because it doest fit their application or budget. The Leyard .9 4k wall is $400,000 but the Sony is more, is lower resolution relative to surface area, and doesnt fit in the same spaces.

If your only data point is peak brightness, then maybe the Leyard isnt for you. Other than that it is subjective to call the Sony "competition" with the Leyard wall.
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