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post #1 of 472 Old 01-22-2006, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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after more than a year delay i have the unit at my cinema
since last friday.

you see the dealer is very happy that we have no "accident".




i was surprised how easy it was to bring this huge monster down to the theater.
its about 125 kg with the lens so almost 3 times the qualia and its much bigger see the pictures.

one problem the unit have is the limit inputs.
you can feed 4 k at the moment only by order 4 hd sdi input cards and a computer that handle the this inputs.
than i need (because all consumer source is dvi or hdmi)4 converter dvi to hd sdi and there is no legal
way to send material with hdcp to the pr.
sony is working on a dvi input card but seams with no hdcp and you also need 4 inputs then.
you only do not need the 4 converter and you can safe may $20000 for the converters.

i decide to use in the first steep the unit only at 1920x1080 feed by the new vigatec scaler s1 output it as a
dvi signal to a folsom image pro hd converter to get hd sdi.
very sad i only can playback material that was not copy protect but i have a lot of very very good material in hd.
4k material will be anyway not out for consumers anytime soon.

i used a prototype from the first pace stb in europe with mpeg 4 hd 1920x1080 50i and d theater and i also
have a hd cam from sony with almost uncompressed hd reference material at 24p 25p with a direct hd sdi out to the
4k pr.

in theory when the 4k pr.scale a 1920x1080 picture to 3840x2160 in a good quality i expect (like if you scale up dvd from 480i to 1920x1080i) a picture improvement.

sad this was almost not the case.i cant see a big improvement may i very little one.

i thought that the unit is not good in cr. but surprised it was very good.
i measured about 2000:1 cr. an this with full light with one lamp.
it looks very good better than my qualia that i run with no iris in high lamp mode at about 1250:1.

the gamma trick that sony do with all there high end units since the qualia is out helps a lot to rate the cr. much better than the
measurement is.

because my power supply is not strong enough i use just one from two 2000 w xenon lamps and i get at 4 hours lamp runnig time 6000 ansi
lumens.
runnig 2 lamps should offer 12000 ansi when the lamp is new and thats about 20% more than the sony spec.

so you can get high light out with high cr. at the same time.
remember the qualia offers at iris 2 at 2000:1 only about 600 lumens so the 4k is about 20 times brighter and
the smaller unit about 10 times.

convergence is not good.
there is the complete red shift 2 pixels down over the complete screen see the pictures.
i dont know but it should be possible to adjust it because what sony need to do is just move the red panel up 2 pixels
and that safe most convergence bugs.
as bad as it sounds and look in the picture it was surprising almost not visible!
i can live with 2 pixels of when the unit is ok in the center and at the corners you have 2 pixels but not with the bug in the center of the screen.
remember if the 4k have 2 pixel of that the same as a 2k pr. have 1 pixel of.
btw:sony spec. is 2 pixel but as i sad i cant live with it if the center is also 2 pixels of.

mr. schmitt and mr.lange from www.cine4home was also there to measure the unit.
they found that the color is very good factory calibrated to d 65.(you will see in the next few days a longer report about the test at his page)

so make it not to long i have to say that with good 2k material the unit offer the best picture i ever saw.
very bright very good cr. very good colors almost no shading no bright corners no halos no false countur bug no dittering........

the negative sides are the convergenzproblems and the inputs without hdcp and that you always need 4
input boards to feed true 4k content.
the unit need a separate room because is much to big and much to noisy to keep it at the same room.

i can simulate how good a true 4k image will look by selecting the 4 screen mode.
see the picture.
i use the robbie williams concert clip "let me entertain you" from hd cam and that material blow us away.
on a big screen you will see very easy the 2k to 4k difference and this makes it clear for me the future is 8 mil. pixel not 2 mil.pixel.
from the 1.5 times the screen wide we are sitting the 8 mil. pixels are above the human eye resolution.
beside jvc i see no competitor in the next time with a 4k pr.

if sony can fix the convergence and offer a dvi input card with hdcp (with at least 1920x1080)i may consider a purchase the
smaller 105 unit with 5000 ansi.

more pictures will be add soon.
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post #2 of 472 Old 01-22-2006, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

so make it not to long i have to say that with good 2k material the unit offer the best picture i ever saw.
very bright very good cr. very good colors almost no shading no brigt corners no halos no false countur bug no dittering........
.

No depth with dark material, only haze... 2000:1 projectors are so passé. If you watch sports on a big screen, great, if you watch feature films on a normal home cinema screen there are far more suitable (not to mention cost effective) projectors around.
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post #3 of 472 Old 01-22-2006, 07:22 AM
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Wolfgang,
I admire your zest ! I also see you are amassing quite an inventory of projectors. I wonder if a custom iris could be installed for a relatively small amount and use those giant lumen numbers. If you could stop down the big unit throwing away three quaters of the light you might be able to double the on off CR and still have way more light than you need even for your supreme screen size. Anyway, best of luck in your quest ,you have me drooling !

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post #4 of 472 Old 01-22-2006, 07:25 AM
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W.Mayer
Good to hear that 4k is the future. I think it is sad if too much money is committed to just 2k.

Did you talk to "Sony"/somebody about how they plan to minimize misconvergence? They could offer both pixel shifting and a mechnical alignment option. I know dlp offers physical alignment. What scenario can we expect here from Sony? Truly they must be shooting for very good alignment to make most use out of 4k.

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post #5 of 472 Old 01-22-2006, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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here are some more pictures

close up from the convergence in the middle of the screen 2 pixels out.



with the quad mode 4 identical pictures are displayed at there full
1920x1080 resolution.
that give us a feeling how real 4k material can look like.
it was shocking good!!!




mr. lange from cine4home on the right side and me.

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post #6 of 472 Old 01-22-2006, 12:05 PM
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Thanks Wolfgang, how is shading on the unit compared to the Qualia/Ruby?

--Peter
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post #7 of 472 Old 01-22-2006, 12:26 PM
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post #8 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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art
from what i know you need about 50% light to trade of for a better cr.
and i think if someone can add a iris after the lamp like the qualia have
it that can boost the cr. to 3500:1.
di will be the best but not in this pr. for professional use only.

we have to wait for a qualia replacement.
let see may this upcoming unit will have not the 8 mil. pixels but likely more than 2 mil. and it may combines this with the di and more light out.

ohlson
i am sure sony will get pressure to fix it but i think its not easy as some believe otherwise
the bug should be not there.

peter
the unit i had have almost no visible shading.
it was as good as one of my qualias or a little bit better.

tryg
nice link.
i am sure that we will see more products in 4k at next nab and after.

let me point this out one more time.
the distance between 1920x1080 24p or 25p material even if its in the best from almost uncompressed hd cam compare to the 4k simulation that i did was so big and huge
that it will be hard for me to wait till i can get such content.

companys that say there is not a big difference in 2 mil pixels compare to 8 mil. pixels
are either lies or they may know it not better what i not believe .
it was a huge difference even on the screen size we did this comparison 5,4m.

the trues is that sony is ready with some always in the beginning of a new technology
occurring problems other are not.
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post #9 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 10:58 AM
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Folks, let's forget (and even forgive) that besides the obvious eye-candy high-resolution, the SRX-R110 has ridiculous image depth, no blacks of any kind, real-world contrast figures below current by-at-Costco sub-$799 LCD PJs and uniformity problems of all sorts and flavors. Yes, let's "close our eyes" to all of this. Now let's get real here:

I'm yet to personally see one, just O N E SRX-R110, or anyone reviewing one for the matter, that even has proper SXRD panel convergence! I mean, for crying out loud, so much hoop-la, development and whatever else and they cannot still put together a single unit that arrives at the end user with proper quality control? Give me a break. Sony might surely be interesting and even pioneering at times at research and technological innovation, but as a manufcaturer (at all levels) it is a supreme joke. Absolutely ridiculous.
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post #10 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 11:19 AM
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let me point this out one more time.
the distance between 1920x1080 24p or 25p material even if its in the best from almost uncompressed hd cam compare to the 4k simulation that i did was so big and huge
that it will be hard for me to wait till i can get such content.


Although this is true for 4K content, if I read your report correctly, 2K content scaled to 4K offers relatively minor or no benefit. This makes sense. There is an aliasing benefit, but the softening and artifacts that come from any scaling are offsetting problems. Also, the analogy of converting 480i SD to deinterlaced higher resolution format does not fully apply. 480 lines (pixels) is so coarse that line and pixel structure are highly visible. Also, there are interlace artifacts. Once you are at 2K and it's progressive, these problems are already gone.

Actual 4K content is something else, but it's going to be a very long time before we see it in any consumer form.

I seriously doubt that there is going to be a Qualia replacement. I just can't see this type of low volume product given Sony's problems and reorganization. I can't see the 4K SRX types continuing either. TI has already won the digital cinema war. Sony's future is in the high volume product lines, especially rear projection.
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post #11 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liebkid View Post

Folks, let's forget (and even forgive) that besides the obvious eye-candy high-resolution, the SRX-R110 has ridiculous image depth, no blacks of any kind, real-world contrast figures below current by-at-Costco sub-$799 LCD PJs and uniformity problems of all sorts and flavors. Yes, let's "close our eyes" to all of this. Now let's get real here:

I'm yet to personally see one, just O N E SRX-R110, or anyone reviewing one for the matter, that even has proper SXRD panel convergence! I mean, for crying out loud, so much hoop-la, development and whatever else and they cannot still put together a single unit that arrives at the end user with proper quality control? Give me a break. Sony might surely be interesting and even pioneering at times at research and technological innovation, but as a manufcaturer (at all levels) it is a supreme joke. Absolutely ridiculous.

Whatever, as the kids say.

Besides Sony there is a heck of a lot of nothing going on in front projection.I have two of their G90s and they have needed nothing but gas and oil.

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post #12 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 11:35 AM
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...I have two of their G90s and they have needed nothing but gas and oil.

Yes Art I agree... buth those were the days of Sony manufacturing "quality"... those days have been long gone... and that is why you still haven't upgraded to anything better. Go buy any, I mean any Sony AV product and you'll be crying back for your G90s for a long time to come. I care less about techology innovations than I do for polishing and troubleshooting existing ones. Then again, I only drive classic cars also... the day my 1936 Auburn Boattail Speedster or 1942 Packard have a "replacement" at least for their design, I'll jump on it and sell all my car collection. Maybe Sony will be better at making a car, who knows...
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I will root for Sony as long as no other company goes after 4k. Having 2k as a long term digital de factor standard would be rediculous with 2k soon in the homes of a lot of people. In addition add simultaneous release and 1080p downloads, who need the cinema? It has to be 4k and Sony has to fix convergence. By the sound of this unit it was uniformly off. That must be better than off in all kind of ways.

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post #14 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Whatever, as the kids say.

Besides Sony there is a heck of a lot of nothing going on in front projection.I have two of their G90s and they have needed nothing but gas and oil.

Art

Oh yes there is! There is the Digital Projection HD10k with 2.35 /1.77 AR zoom focus memory, it has hdcp input card, one was already hand built. You can modify the Iris to obtain 3:300 >1 , and it with some lenses it will focus on a Torus screen with a radius of 93% of TD.

Thats IS THE G-90 terminator.
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post #15 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

I will root for Sony as long as no other company goes after 4k. Having 2k as a long term digital de factor standard would be rediculous with 2k soon in the homes of a lot of people. In addition add simultaneous release and 1080p downloads, who need the cinema? It has to be 4k and Sony has to fix convergence. By the sound of this unit it was uniformly off. That must be better than off in all kind of ways.

TI will have 4K, but not yet and probably not for about five years. 2K resolution is simply not an issue for digital cinema at present. The remaining roadblocks for wide adoption have nothing to do with resolution and they are being solved. The logjam seems to have been already broken and the current install rate of 2K DLP units is about 100/month (this is a guess). We will probably see 48p before 4K resolution, and this is considered by many an equally important technical advance.
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I was sad to see 4k@48p was not suggested. I think both the 2k and the 24p barrier will be slow to break down. With your time frame for TI 4k Sony is not in a hurry. The coming standard for the software side of it should be most important as you say. Then Sony can compete at the 4k level. They should get to established 4k sooner than TI.

W.Mayer
Any indication if Sony is going to a single or a dual input standard in the future that can handle 4k?

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post #17 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Oh yes there is! There is the Digital Projection HD10k with 2.35 /1.77 AR zoom focus memory, it has hdcp input card, one was already hand built. You can modify the Iris to obtain 3:300 >1 , and it with some lenses it will focus on a Torus screen with a radius of 93% of TD.

Thats IS THE G-90 terminator.


OK ,so I trade a maybe if you're lucky 3300:1 device for a 40,000:1 device. What's in it for me ? Why in the hell do you need a torus for a bulb based projector,where's the beef ?

But of course, last years 720p DP unit was your G90 killer. All I can say is you must either be in bed with DP or on something or both.

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post #18 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 03:16 PM
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Alright Art, neglecting CINERAMAX's excessive enthusiasm, what would actually make you dump your G90s in the trash?
10,000:1? I mean, real panel CR, not the DI trickery... Additional DI CR improvement is welcome of course...

Other than that, everything else should be superior to your G90s.
According to wm a well calibrated G90 doesn't have a better CR than 10,000:1 (8,300:1?).

Would that be a trigger puller for you Art?

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post #19 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 03:57 PM
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Alright Art, neglecting CINERAMAX's excessive enthusiasm, what would actually make you dump your G90s in the trash?
10,000:1? I mean, real panel CR, not the DI trickery... Additional DI CR improvement is welcome of course...

Other than that, everything else should be superior to your G90s.
According to wm a well calibrated G90 doesn't have a better CR than 10,000:1 (8,300:1?).

Would that be a trigger puller for you Art?

Personally, I disagree with wm on that one. At least my system which has been superbly calibrated and without losing shadow detail is estimated to have around that number by Darin.

Anyway, if it had 10,000:1 I think that could get me close but I'd like to see it. If I could get a device that looked as good as the TI demo with that I'd probably be happy but if Peter needs a toroidal screen then something is wrong with the projector IMO.

Real calibrated 10,000:1 CR, about 1000 lumens and not just out of the box but a month later assuming other crap doesn't rear it's head as it has with the Ruby that should do it.

Here is the bottom line when I see something that is better and can light up my screen I'll buy it. I don't want this to sound smug but moving backward just to have the latest isn't what will be the key for me.

Honestly ,I had really thought I would have found the digital for me a year ago.

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post #20 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I don't want this to sound smug but moving backward just to have the latest isn't what will be the key for me.

Honestly ,I had really thought I would have found the digital for me a year ago.

Art

Absolutely, doing anything like that would be foolish at best.
The Qualia didn't fit your bill, eh?

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post #21 of 472 Old 01-23-2006, 05:56 PM
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Absolutely, doing anything like that would be foolish at best.
The Qualia didn't fit your bill, eh?

The light output is just a little short of what I need and 1950:1 CR in high CR mode is not even close.

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post #22 of 472 Old 01-24-2006, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Oh yes there is! There is the Digital Projection HD10k with 2.35 /1.77 AR zoom focus memory, it has hdcp input card, one was already hand built. You can modify the Iris to obtain 3:300 >1 , and it with some lenses it will focus on a Torus screen with a radius of 93% of TD.

Thats IS THE G-90 terminator.

No < 10000:1 CR projector is a CRT terminator for people who prefer CRT for its black level and contrast range. For all other aspects you can have equal or better from digital projectors now. Digital CRT terminators start at 30000:1 and higher and are in the future.
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post #23 of 472 Old 01-24-2006, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

Although this is true for 4K content, if I read your report correctly, 2K content scaled to 4K offers relatively minor or no benefit. This makes sense.

Yes, a lot of sense. SXRD has practically no SED so whether you look at 2K or 4K it looks smooth and analogue with a smooth looking source. If you have super sharp 2K (which you don't from consumer sources) 4K can make it look smoother, but with normal HD it ain't going to happen. With 4K sources that have 4K detail (requires 70mm sources or > 2K digital cameras) the 4K chips deliver a significant improvement to the 2K picture. But no such sources in sight for at home. So why bother with a very expensive Sony 4K projector? If you need the lumens, well, you have not much choice if you dislike DLP.
A 4K projector becomes attractive to me once we have less bright versions with Ruby technology and beyond so there is decent contrast and superior resolution.
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post #24 of 472 Old 01-24-2006, 07:11 AM
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I think the bulb has to be ditched to take the next step with sxrd. We see that leds are coming with several rptvs and rumors are that some company will try lasers instead of leds. Even so this will only give you black but not the contrast you desire. The pressure to innovate is harder in the rptv market.

I think many would be very happy if there were to be a Ruby on steroids. That is more lumen, lens options and a better manfacturing process. With a prosumer device I think 2 million pixels are enough with the sources that will be available.

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post #25 of 472 Old 01-24-2006, 07:53 AM
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No < 10000:1 CR projector is a CRT terminator for people who prefer CRT for its black level and contrast range. For all other aspects you can have equal or better from digital projectors now. Digital CRT terminators start at 30000:1 and higher and are in the future.

CRT's are totally unlinear. Once conditioned to xenon three chip dlp the colorimetry of these "Calibrated " G-90's and company is laughable. Thense conditioned, you are sensitive to the fact color of analog is totally unlinear depending on program ansi contrast.

NO WONDER YOU LIKE WATCHING DARK MATERIAL, it keeps your colors linear, but what a price to pay.

50 years from now Art Sonneborn is going to be remembered as the person responsible for holding out against the superior color projection format of 3 chip dlp.

ON:OFF contrast ratio is not the holy grail of projection once you cross the 3:000 threshold. extreme ANSI contrast is what protrays true dynamic impact on a video image.

Fortuitously this pathetic obsession to 50 year old technology shall soon come to pass. I will have a laugh when Art and Swiss Mike change their bragging mantras from crt to dlp.

Art: To the regular crt projection nonlinearity problems you must add the compounding effect of double stacking where you conciously are overlaying an image ditortion, perfect convergence is an impossibility. My supercalibrated g-90 and torus combo is a far more elegant solution to your dilema. Why have two projectors blooming when you can have one not blooming yielding 18ftlbs on an 11 foot wide.

Why would you use a digital projector on a TORUS? Because optical screens are always better than non optical screens. The TORUS is the first Optical front projection screen, the second is THE SUPERNOVA, at this point a very promising technology for future cave cinemas.

An optical screen's job is to collect the light produced by the projector and refocus it on the audience area. This eliminates kick back light much like a rear projection does. The benefit to the user is richer more lifelike colors , enhanced immediacy and apparent resolution, and lastly for you ON:OFF superfreaks, it lowers your on screen floor level.
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post #26 of 472 Old 01-24-2006, 08:11 AM
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If I could get a device that looked as good as the TI demo with that I'd probably be happy
Art

Peter may be right then, since this device was rumored to only have 1,800:1 CR.
Interesting...

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post #27 of 472 Old 01-24-2006, 09:27 AM
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CRT's are totally unlinear. Once conditioned to xenon three chip dlp the colorimetry of these "Calibrated " G-90's and company is laughable. Thense conditioned, you are sensitive to the fact color of analog is totally unlinear depending on program ansi contrast.

I'd be the first to admit that three chip DLP has the best color reproduction available in any technology used in front projection this isn't news and hasn't been for a very very long time.



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50 years from now Art Sonneborn is going to be remembered as the person responsible for holding out against the superior color projection format of 3 chip dlp.

And he enjoyed the cleanest ,highest contrast ,deepest images avaliable in front projection in his theater with great color.Instead of substandard contrast and blacks, rampant dithering artifacts, and noise.

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ON:OFF contrast ratio is not the holy grail of projection once you cross the 3:000 threshold. extreme ANSI contrast is what protrays true dynamic impact on a video image.

Dead wrong ! Anyone who cares about image quality knows that 3000:1 is joke. From this alone I wonder about your eye for excellence.

Every digital projection manufacturer is killing themselves to reach numbers and the incredible look associated with CRT CR numbers. This sure isn't because 3,000:1 is already good enough and they have nothing better to do with their time and money. If you had said perhaps 10,000:1 I'd give you credit but instead you simply regurgitate the CR numbers of whatever projector you like at the time.
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Fortuitously this pathetic obsession to 50 year old technology shall soon come to pass. I will have a laugh when Art and Swiss Mike change their bragging mantras from crt to dlp.

.

I'd hoped so myself but it ain't here yet and you really know it but can't accept that despite the best efforts, it is taking way longer to get there than it was expected to or should have. This is like Nixon's war on cancer,the hope was there ,the goal was there, the dreams were there, the tools weren't.

I will also say that of the contenders to get me to take my G90s down DLP is in the lead.If it weren't for noise,dithering,and relatively poor on off CR in average to low APL I'd have one now.


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Art: To the regular crt projection nonlinearity problems you must add the compounding effect of double stacking where you conciously are overlaying an image ditortion, perfect convergence is an impossibility. My supercalibrated g-90 and torus combo is a far more elegant solution to your dilema. Why have two projectors blooming when you can have one not blooming yielding 18ftlbs on an 11 foot wide.

.

I'd bet you one of my testicles that I have better color registration with less fringing and better overall overlay of my CRTs right now than a three chip DLP has. My CRTs are calibrated to 5 to 6 fL per G90 these are far far from blooming by design. Toroidal screens are ugly and ruin the possibility of getting the best audio performance, not to mention any hope of getting a great clean looking room.

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An optical screen's job is to collect the light produced by the projector and refocus it on the audience area. This eliminates kick back light much like a rear projection does. The benefit to the user is richer more lifelike colors , enhanced immediacy and apparent resolution, and lastly for you ON:OFF superfreaks, it lowers your on screen floor level.

And they have the same acoustical issues as the toroidal screen unless you like to just sit all of you gear around the room as some do but not me.



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Dead wrong ! Anyone who cares about image quality knows that 3000:1 is joke.

Art, seriously, this puts you in a vanishingly small minority of experts. The vast majority of experienced viewers, including myself, consider 3000:1 sequential CR as a high level of performance. We would all gladly have more, but not at the expense of light output, colorimetry, artifacts, etc. Also, you may be surprised to know that the S/N ratio of the G90 is probably worse than that of the best 3 chip DLP. This is relevant to your comment about a clean image and dithering artifacts.
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post #29 of 472 Old 01-24-2006, 10:20 AM
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Art, seriously, this puts you in a vanishingly small minority of experts. The vast majority of experienced viewers, including myself, consider 3000:1 sequential CR as a high level of performance. We would all gladly have more, but not at the expense of light output, colorimetry, artifacts, etc. Also, you may be surprised to know that the S/N ratio of the G90 is probably worse than that of the best 3 chip DLP. This is relevant to your comment about a clean image and dithering artifacts.

Yes ,high and as you say we want more. Vanishing yes, for sure , but I'd still take my stack over any of the three chip DLPs I've seen including the Runco SC1, SIM, Marantz, DPI units. The TI PD demo at CEDIA however was very very impressive with HD over SDI but of course no low end.

The S/N is relevant but visible areas of dithering as well as the sharp to the point of exposing too much of the source is my point. This may well be why the PD unit looked so good or maybe it was just that good.

Thanks for the input here.

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post #30 of 472 Old 01-24-2006, 10:34 AM
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W.Mayer,
I bow to you for having the SRX110 in your home

Question - any thoughts of getting the TI 2k DLP cinema PJ in there? I've seen it on a monster screen and it's pretty nice . . .

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