Kaleidescape- how will it handle Bluray and HD DVD with hdcp? - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 835 Old 12-11-2006, 05:28 PM
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MS would obviously have more chance of success if there were not so many people out there who consider any limitation of their use of digital content to be a crime against humanity and who wil try everything they can to break the encryption. Many of those people are AVS members of course. Given the attitude out there among so many people, it's not hard to understand why the studios feel the way they do. They've put a lot of work into this new format and opening it up to the PC will be one more lever for those people whose avowed objective is to break any encryption used on any digital content.

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post #362 of 835 Old 12-27-2006, 07:29 PM
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A pre-emptive "yawn... uh, snort, what? could it be?" for this "crack":

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=119871
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oZGYb92isE

In short, it looks like they've implemented a decryptor for the publicly available AACS spec. Here's the rub: it will work... if you happen to have an AACS key. Which, as yet, is not in the wild... and if one is, it most likely would be revoked.

HOWEVER... looking at the Doom9 thread, and the YouTube video, it looks like the author has indeed been able to retrieve keys from one Windows HD-DVD player; I believe it is PowerDVD. He has declined to release it publicly, it seems. Nevertheless, I predict that the current PowerDVD key will be revoked soon. In fact, AACS has some sort of automatic expiration for software-based players that aren't updated over the Internet.

This probably proves Microsoft's decision correct not to implement their own HD-DVD or Blu-Ray decoders for XP.

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post #363 of 835 Old 12-27-2006, 08:14 PM
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Intel/AMD ought to take the initiative here and build in a key and basic decoding accelleration stuff into their CPUs, and just let the software players use that. It would be worth their while in terms of making their hardware a viable legal platform for media moving forward.

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post #364 of 835 Old 12-27-2006, 10:33 PM
 
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Why don't we just go back to vinyl?
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post #365 of 835 Old 12-28-2006, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

Intel/AMD ought to take the initiative here and build in a key and basic decoding accelleration stuff into their CPUs, and just let the software players use that. It would be worth their while in terms of making their hardware a viable legal platform for media moving forward.


And obsolete current hardware? Not a good idea.

Maybe the best step is to realize that it's just going to be broken, no matter how hard they try to make it secure.

And what happens when someone gets a key out of a name brand player, like a Sony or Toshiba, and then uses that key to crack AACS. Will those keys be revoked, and will thousand's of players be made dead?

All this effort, all this money spent, on trying to stop something that you'll eventually be unable to stop.
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post #366 of 835 Old 12-28-2006, 07:00 PM
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Maybe the best step is to realize that it's just going to be broken, no matter how hard they try to make it secure.

I, for one, don't believe it will---at least not over the useful life of the format.
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And what happens when someone gets a key out of a name brand player, like a Sony or Toshiba, and then uses that key to crack AACS. Will those keys be revoked, and will thousand's of players be made dead?

Now to be fair to you, this did happen once. Someone at a major university constructed a custom probe to sniff the Hypertransport bus on an X-box and extracted the private key. Seems Microsoft assumed nobody would be able to do that, and thus the key was transmitted "in the clear" over that bus. Indeed they assumed wrong. But it is interesting to note that other efforts to retrieve said keys were abandoned as impractical.

Still, granting that---people (and in this case, I mean DRM experts) learn their lessons. I don't believe this mistake is going to happen with AACS. But if it does, I think that yes, they will revoke the keys that belong to that particular player. And the manufacturer of said player will have to foot the bill to have those players recalled. Recalls happen all the time for other reasons, though, so it really won't be that unfamiliar of a process.

Besides, if I understand AACS correctly, I think the hardware keys are distributed much more liberally---not just one per manufacturer, but one per machine or one per batch. Don't count me as certain on that point. But if I am right, even if a key for the most popular hardware model is retrieve, I don't think you're talking about a recall that affects ALL of them.
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All this effort, all this money spent, on trying to stop something that you'll eventually be unable to stop.

The only thing that is wasted, in my view, is the bandwidth spent on wishful thinking that movie studios will give up on copy protection and DRM. It's not going to happen. With movie budgets regularly exceeding $100 million---and with studios increasing depending on DVD sales & rentals instead of cinema ticket sales to recoup that investment---you had better believe that they are going to err on the side of being heavy-handed.

I do think it is more likely that a relaxation on heavy-handed DRM will happen with music. Indeed some big-label studio, EMI I think, is experimenting wiith that. But individual music productions cost orders of magnitude less than individual movie productions, so the business models are different.

EDIT: I know it's a bit hypocritical of me to suggest this, given that I just entered a long post, but I kind of realized after the fact that it might be best to have this debate over in this thread here.

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post #367 of 835 Old 12-28-2006, 09:55 PM
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i will probably get leapt upon and made fun of for this... but oh well.

What is the fascination with stealing things? Why is it so evil for the studios to say that you cannot do whatever the hell you want with their content?

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post #368 of 835 Old 12-29-2006, 12:46 AM
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I agree. There is an entire sub-culture out there that is obsessed with stealing digital content. It's probably the bulk of internet traffic, after spam anyway. There are many times more tracks stolen every year than sold, but somehow the people who make the stuff are the evil ones and people act like it's some kind of outrage that they'd try to protect their stuff when clearly people are stealing it at a rate far larger than is actually purchased.

And poeple scream about the outrageous profits of the studios, when the GROSS revenues of all the major music studios combined is about equal to the PROFIT of General Electric, a single company. But of course in order to steal from GE, they'd actually have to pick something up and run off with it. But most people have no respect for IP rights at all, and don't even think about it at all. And of course they always complain that companies are pushing to extend copyright, but the bulk of what is being stolen isn't stuff that would be in the public domain under even a 20 year copyright.

Anyway, don't get me started.

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post #369 of 835 Old 12-29-2006, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

i will probably get leapt upon and made fun of for this... but oh well.

What is the fascination with stealing things? Why is it so evil for the studios to say that you cannot do whatever the hell you want with their content?

No one in this thread is suggesting the theft of anything, and I have no problems with studio's wishing to protect their content. But there's only one sure fire way to ensure content isn't stolen.... don't release it.

IMHO, they're somewhat making the situation more complicated than it needs to be and delaying something like MMC so that a system like Kaleidescape can't take advantage of the new formats. I'm not saying don't try and have some form of copy protection on the new formats, but at least get off the pot when it comes to MMC so those of us that do wish to use a media server system can.
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post #370 of 835 Old 12-30-2006, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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That is exactly what I am saying- I do not intend to steal anything- I just want a convenient way to watch the movies. Personally, I do not own a K, but over the holidays, I have been playing with my in-laws kaleidescape- it is absolutely awesome. Hd-dvd or blu-ray should be eyeing K as a marketing tool and helping K implement one of their formats, exclusively. Even to people who can't afford a K, imagine if they heard things like this- "Yeah- the K is the best, it's $30,000... what do I think of the new formats? Well, I am not sure yet- but that cool K system- it only supports blu-ray," coming from the mouths of high-end av salespeople?
Instead the format groups are headed by dumbass people convinced the world will stop turning if an extremely wealthy person can more conveniently access their movie collection.
It blows my mind. I finally convince my father in law to get one for his theater, and he loves it so much he watches more movies- buys about a hundred dvds on a whim BECAUSE K MAKES THEM EASIER TO WATCH. He does not steal movies. People that cannot afford them and have enough time to download them do. They are not customers to begin with.
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post #371 of 835 Old 01-02-2007, 11:54 PM
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there is a mention in PC Mag online, I think, that someone has cracked HD-DVD DRM and was able to back up the bits from the plastic to the hard drive, and play the movie from there using Cyberlink's HD DVD software player. Wow. There is a video on YouTube showing it being done.

However, there is some dispute just how much the guy/gal has actually cracked of HD DVD, and unlike in DVD case, there seems to be some wrinkle to do with keys specific to each and every title.

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post #372 of 835 Old 01-03-2007, 07:38 AM
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You're a bit late to the game tzucc---check a few posts back for details... also there's a LOT of discussion in the HD software media forum. In short, though, it's not a particularly fatal crack---someone managed to extract PowerDVD's AACS keys, in a similar fashion that DVD Jon broke CSS. The only thing is, AACS accounts for this kind of attack in its design, and its revocation ability will handle it just fine. The only folks in trouble are the people who wrote the PowerDVD folks. Current titles are vulnerable to extraction in the meantime but those are few in number...

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post #373 of 835 Old 01-03-2007, 12:00 PM
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thanks for the update MG.

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post #374 of 835 Old 03-29-2007, 05:12 PM
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Judge rules against DVD consortium

Quote:


SAN JOSE, Calif. A Superior Court judge ruled Thursday (March 29) a startup's media server does not violate the security technology used to protect DVD disks because the standard licensing contract and specifications for the technology are so poorly worded.
The decision marks a rare, though small victory for a Silicon Valley startup facing the interests of a group of large movie studios and consumer and computer companies. The ruling also could open the door for other systems makers who want to design personal video libraries that store DVD movies on hard drives.

Judge Leslie C. Nichols ruled against the DVD Copy Control Association (DVD CCA) in a civil suit that asked the court to force startup Kaleidescape to change its design or stop selling its server that stores hundreds of DVD movies on a hard drive array. Nichols said the basis for his decision was his ruling that an entire section of the DVD CCA's spec for the Content Scramble System (CSS) was not technically included as part of the license agreement.

"This [CSS spec] is a product of a committee of lawyers," said Nichols in his ruling.

...

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/s...printable=true
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Collide. Escape. (repeat as needed)


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post #376 of 835 Old 03-30-2007, 08:25 AM
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I didn't have the time to read the entire thread but have a question:

I have the opportunity to buy a K system at a very good price but I would have to make a decision in the next couple of weeks. Should I bite or should I wait?
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post #377 of 835 Old 03-30-2007, 09:59 AM
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Bite

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post #378 of 835 Old 03-30-2007, 09:13 PM
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Definitely bite
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post #379 of 835 Old 03-30-2007, 11:57 PM
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If you watch dvd's bite. But no one is holding me down to watch DVD's , I have now gone10 months without buying or renting a dvd. Quite frankly the quality of DVD is horrible compared to HD. I would spend the money in a high capacity Vista Media center outfitted with dual cable cards and an hd dvd player and Blue ray player. If you need to share this hd content multiroom then xbox 360 elite it.



To each it's own, but it's HD or bust for me.


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post #380 of 835 Old 03-31-2007, 12:31 AM
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OK then... now lets talk about something that can be bought this year!

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post #381 of 835 Old 03-31-2007, 01:03 AM
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Very simple.
Vista media center PC
A few TB of iSCSI storage. About $6k should net you a kaleidescape equivalent unit
PowerDVD 7
Slysoft Anydvd-HD. One button rip of any HD-DVD or blu-ray disk (or so I've heard..:-)
Presto..instant HD-DVD/Blu-ray disk storage system.

Granted, streaming to an Xbox 360 extender is not an option for HD-DVD..as it can't handle the bitrate. That would require either a downconvert to WMV-HD, or transcode (ugh). But then again, Kaleidescape costs a fortune, and can't even archive HD-DVD.
Not to mention a simple Vista HTPC+iSCSI array will do everything a Kaleidescape does. Perhaps not as idiot proof, but at a fraction of the price.
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post #382 of 835 Old 03-31-2007, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proteus7 View Post


Granted, streaming to an Xbox 360 extender is not an option for HD-DVD..as it can't handle the bitrate.

It is my understanding that the xbox 360 elite will display ful 1080p. It is also my understanding that service pac 2 will permit streaming of hd-dvd and blu-ray over the network. what gives?


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post #383 of 835 Old 03-31-2007, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

OK then... now lets talk about something that can be bought this year!

The above rig can be bought this year.


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post #384 of 835 Old 03-31-2007, 09:57 AM
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Should I bite or should I wait?

Read their license agreement very carefully. Notice the parts where they are protected and you are not. Namely they can turn your players off completely, anytime, for any reason, and you have no (ZERO) recourse.

If they had lost this suit, they would have done just that with their next automatic software update.

I would buy something that has a more consumer friendly licensing agreement.

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post #385 of 835 Old 03-31-2007, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proteus7 View Post

Very simple.
Vista media center PC
A few TB of iSCSI storage. About $6k should net you a kaleidescape equivalent unit
PowerDVD 7
Slysoft Anydvd-HD. One button rip of any HD-DVD or blu-ray disk (or so I've heard..:-)
Presto..instant HD-DVD/Blu-ray disk storage system.

Granted, streaming to an Xbox 360 extender is not an option for HD-DVD..as it can't handle the bitrate. That would require either a downconvert to WMV-HD, or transcode (ugh). But then again, Kaleidescape costs a fortune, and can't even archive HD-DVD.
Not to mention a simple Vista HTPC+iSCSI array will do everything a Kaleidescape does. Perhaps not as idiot proof, but at a fraction of the price.

Yes, it can do everything a Kaleidescape system can do...in the sense that my legs can do everything a car can do. They can both get me from point A to point B. Beyond that, they are not remotely similar.
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post #386 of 835 Old 03-31-2007, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by QQQ View Post

Yes, it can do everything a Kaleidescape system can do...in the sense that my legs can do everything a car can do. They can both get me from point A to point B. Beyond that, they are not remotely similar.


I disagree I say HD is the car and dvd is the legs.


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post #387 of 835 Old 03-31-2007, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Huckster View Post

Read their license agreement very carefully. Notice the parts where they are protected and you are not. Namely they can turn your players off completely, anytime, for any reason, and you have no (ZERO) recourse.

If they had lost this suit, they would have done just that with their next automatic software update.

I would buy something that has a more consumer friendly licensing agreement.

But they didn't lose, did they? And really, the issue was never all that much in doubt. The DVDCCA's appeal is an expected attempt by them to further the case, but it will fail as well. The wording isn't in CSS usage agreement contract and that's all that matters. I, like other K users, asked questions about this issue before buying. I also did my own research before making the investment so I feel confident that K will win out even on the DVDCCA's appeal.

Jeff

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post #388 of 835 Old 03-31-2007, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proteus7 View Post

Very simple.
Vista media center PC
A few TB of iSCSI storage. About $6k should net you a kaleidescape equivalent unit
PowerDVD 7
Slysoft Anydvd-HD. One button rip of any HD-DVD or blu-ray disk (or so I've heard..:-)
Presto..instant HD-DVD/Blu-ray disk storage system.

Granted, streaming to an Xbox 360 extender is not an option for HD-DVD..as it can't handle the bitrate. That would require either a downconvert to WMV-HD, or transcode (ugh). But then again, Kaleidescape costs a fortune, and can't even archive HD-DVD.
Not to mention a simple Vista HTPC+iSCSI array will do everything a Kaleidescape does. Perhaps not as idiot proof, but at a fraction of the price.

Slysoft Anydvd-HD- Illegal!

In this forum why dont we talk about things that are legal that a person can buy without the thought of breaking the law (whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant) MMC is not yet finalized (to the best of my knowledge) so talking about ANY BD HDDVD server is merely conjecture.

We can postulate on what we would like to see and how much we would like it to cost and why, but the truth is that you cannot legally do it yet.

Quote:


Read their license agreement very carefully. Notice the parts where they are protected and you are not. Namely they can turn your players off completely, anytime, for any reason, and you have no (ZERO) recourse.

Read any friggin contract that entails multiple licences and that is the case. read all the way through your EULA for windows and you will find far more draconian things than "if we have to close our doors, we may have to shut your player off" If they had lost the suit, they MIGHT have had to make some change to the architecture to ensure you still possess the disc.

But as with all the people who bought the systems and came on as dealers for K, they did a TINY bit of research (not a bad idea for a 30K+ item) and found that everything pointed to K being correct. And realizing in most cases that K had a better engineering and manufacturing organization and pedigree than ANY consumer company on the market, this was an item that was not going to fade away.

I find these wild postulations the funniest stuff here. And again, i did work there, i left there and could possibly have an axe to grind, but have to admit that they know what they are doing.

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post #389 of 835 Old 03-31-2007, 07:44 PM
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Yes..speeding is illegal. Certain activities between consenting adults are illegal...whatever. If one purchased, and owned the HD-DVD and/or Blu-ray disk, it becomes a Fair Use vs DMCA issue and very much a legal grey area. We didn't exactly see the MPAA raiding any Kaleidescape users, eh?
I won't even get into the fact that Kaleidescape has to violate the DMCA, as almost every new DVD release in the past few years has ADDITIONAL copy protection features besides the pathetic CSS.

The simple fact of the matter is, if it can be played back on a computer, it can be copied easily. For that matter, if it can be played back PERIOD, it can be copied, although with much more difficulty. And lets not get started on the "morality" issue. If I purchased it, its MINE. I do not recall signing a license agreement when I purchased my CD's...DVDs..or even HD-DVDs for that matter.


So...for the whole "run' vs "walk" argument, I'll bite. I've read the specs on Kalaidescape very carefully, and can see NOTHING that even comes close to justifying the outrageous price. What am I missing? What, exactly that can a K-scape system do, that a good Vista HTPC backed by a storage array can't?

- Archive DVDs? - Check
- Play those archived DVDs in any room of the house? - Check
- Provide liner notes, movie information, etc? - Check
- Allow one to pick a movie based on a variety of catagories? - Check
- Use touch screen remotes? - Check.

So..what are we missing here? What justifies the extra $20k?
Gold HDMI cables with platinum connectors?
20k rpm drives?
Then again, I forget we're in the ultra high end forum, where people pay $200 for an HDMI cable, or hundreds for fiber optics....

And yes, I could certainly a K-scape system if I felt the cost was justified....I just prefer to use my existing fiber storage arrary and servers.
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post #390 of 835 Old 03-31-2007, 08:12 PM
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proteus7,

The issue has been discussed ad nauseum. I suggest doing a search. Since you are basing your argument on having "read the specs carefully" and have no experience with the product, it seems any discussion is likely of limited value.

No one is claiming the picture is sharper or that some super low jitter number makes it sound better or that it's wired with silver wire or any of the other stuff that you'll find prevalent in audio circles. That's not what this device is about. This device is about the user experience (and much more). Is that user experience worth the price difference? That's a question that only each person can answer.

The moment I see the argument to "justify the outrageous cost" I know I am usually in a battle that can't be won. I can't justify the cost any more than I can justify why one person purchases a $499 computer and another wants to buy the most tricked out Alienware machine for 8K. What I can tell you is that the two machines aren't the same. Is the Alienware "worth" 7.5K more? It's a totally meaningless argument to get into because "worth" is in the eye of the beholder.
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