Kaleidescape- how will it handle Bluray and HD DVD with hdcp? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 835 Old 04-09-2007, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Time to change the wife then... ...just kidding.

Heck no. If not for her I wouldn't have most of my toys!

Jeff

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post #452 of 835 Old 04-09-2007, 07:17 PM
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Jeff has a very unique wife and not one that ANY of us would want to swap out!

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post #453 of 835 Old 04-10-2007, 06:13 AM
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Now for another question. Is there a way to copy TiVo'd content to the K?
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post #454 of 835 Old 04-10-2007, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
So let's bring a dose of reality back to this discussion. Vista does NOT currently support burning HD or BD DVD. There is no media server ANYWHERE that supports burning HD or BD DVD. ALL it does is promises to support is what ever those formats allow. And we don't know what they will allow!

Bullcrap. Vista DOES allow burning HD or BDDVD. Why? because its an "open system" not closed and proprietary. For the 90% of the world not covered by the DMCA, its a great solution. For those who don't give a *#)(@ about the DMCA, its also a great solution. God bless Slysoft!


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1. Support up to 25 (IIRC) DVD's being played simultaneously from the same server.

Any decent storage array can handle that bitstream, not a big deal

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Also, there is no bi-directional rs232 control for MCE.

What are you smoking? RS232 has been around for DECADES. Its an obsolete protocol, but supported by every PC,Mac, etc in existence. Nowadays, I'd use IP, but if you still need RS232 to talk to legacy hardware, there are lots of apps that will do it.

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Windows Crashes
AnyDVD updates every 2-3 days, so you have to go to their site, download the new program, install it and restart.
To rip a DVD involves the following steps:

My Vista systems don't crash. Perhaps I'm blessed? Perhaps I carefully pick stable hardware and drivers? Perhaps its because my job involves designing servers with 99.99% uptime?

So, I actually took a look at a K-scape system, and truly, its nothing spectacular.
Essentially, it relies on a database, that K-scape wrote and maintains, that stores ripping parameters, and best display resolution, aspect ratio, etc information for each movie. I am sure there are movies out there that are NOT in the database, just as I am also sure that if K-scape ever goes under, there will be no new database updates. The "intelligence" it displays when ripping and displaying DVDs is nothing more than looking up that DVD in a database.

So...
+Usable by the non-computer literate. Simple enough for grandma to use
+Slick interface
+Linux based OS, with much customization and flexbility.
+Brainless, perfect ripping of most DVDs
-Does not handle HD-DVD or Blu-Ray
-Does not handle custom rips. Probably does not handle non-Region 1 disks
-Highly expensive..more than 10x more than Vista MCE
-No cablecard support. No HDTV support. No watching Sopranos on HBO-HD
-Proprietary, closed system. Locked into K-scape for storage. I can buy 7.5TB of storage for ~2500 at Frys...how much would K-scape charge me for this?
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post #455 of 835 Old 04-10-2007, 07:38 AM
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I'm not going to respond to the factual errors in your bullet list. But at least you're getting somewhere. You're freely acknowledging that the K does things that MCE doesn't---some things it will likely never do, or can't do, and other things it can't do without significant added work.

On the other hand, none of us thinks that the K is better in all the aspects you've listed. Of course it doesn't yet do HDDVD and BD ripping. (And I suspect neither will MCE soon, by the way.) Of course it doesn't have DVR functionality. So the K is better in some respects, and worse in others.

But once that's established, the argument is over. Having a discussion about price is absolutely idiotic. The fact is that the PC-based solution is the better value for you because you don't place a significant cost on those aspects that the K does better. That's fine. But other people do. It may be hard for you to believe, but for some people it is simply not acceptable to have to spend time ripping their own movies. For some people, it is simply not acceptable to have to navigate a more difficult interface. For some people, it is simply not acceptable to have an imperfectly integrated control system.

And for such people, the added cost of the K is not necessarily money wasted.

I'm frankly surprised you're being so dense about this. Your job is, and I quote, "designing servers with 99.99% uptime." Do you really place such a low value on that expertise? Sure, you can buy most of the hardware at Fry's for a fraction of the cost. But don't you think the time invested in selecting the right hardware, assembling it correctly, installing the right software and drivers, tuning it for performance and stability, etc. is trivial? If you were being paid to do all that work for someone else, how much would you charge?

I'll bet that if you took the time required to approach the K's ease of use, stability, and system integration, and multiplied it by your hourly salary+benefit rate, you would close that price gap real fast. So it only seems like a big gap to you because you're giving yourself a really good deal on your time. I'm not willing to do that; I'd rather let someone else pay me far more for my time.

Michael
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post #456 of 835 Old 04-10-2007, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charris View Post

Proteus,

Also, there is no bi-directional rs232 control for MCE.

I have been using MCE2005 with my movies in my home for a long time now.

Not completely true. My Movies has RS-232 control for the Sony DVD changer, and it would be very easy to write control code for other items, such as switchers, etc. Problem is getting Brian to incorporate it into his My Movies plug-in.

Exceptional Innovation is basically doing what a lot of people want K to do, through MCE and Vista, with their Lifeware system. IMHO, it and K could complement each other perfectly well.

We're in the process of ording plans now for our new home, and I definitely plan on installing a K system for my DVD's, mainly for the ease of setup and use. I do though wish K would expand the server's use to raw MPEG, DV, AVI files imported into the system, than just ripped DVD's, as I'd love to be able to store all of our home movies from one central server location.
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post #457 of 835 Old 04-10-2007, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchlampert View Post

Now for another question. Is there a way to copy TiVo'd content to the K?

You can import any DVD you like to the K, even a home burned one, so you could then import Tivo or whatever content you like onto the K that way. Direct transfers via Tivo Desktop, etc are not supported. I personally have loaded burned DVDs onto the system containing my wedding video, home movies of the kids, DVD slideshows, an old football game (Monday Night Miracle - Jets v Fins on MNF in 2000), etc. I know that K has worked with some users to import home HD content onto HDDs for addition to a K system. With future HD support, the latter should become as easy as importing SD DVDs now.

Jeff

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post #458 of 835 Old 04-24-2007, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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So- though I might bump- the trial is over, BD+ seems like it will be implemented sooner rather than later, does anyone know anything about managed copy?
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post #459 of 835 Old 04-25-2007, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by iansilv View Post

So- though I might bump- the trial is over, BD+ seems like it will be implemented sooner rather than later, does anyone know anything about managed copy?

You can do some web searching to learn a lot about what MMC is supposed to be. The question is, will it turn out to be what we all are hoping for and, perhaps more importantly, when will it be ratified into the final AACS spec? See this article on the issue that talks about MMC and the K ruling:

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/s...leID=198701588

I personally worry that the studios will delay and delay to, in effect, never follow through on their promise. That is one major problem with adopting a new format that doesn't have all of its promised features implemented yet.

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post #460 of 835 Old 04-28-2007, 09:24 PM
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News.com's coverage of Vudu.

Most interesting. Can't wait to see where this goes.
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post #461 of 835 Old 04-29-2007, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I am not interested in vudu unless it has the same or better pq than hddvd and bluray. Peer to peer sounds like it will be some half-arsed comrpessed "near dvd quality" thing. But we will see.
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post #462 of 835 Old 04-29-2007, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iansilv View Post

I am not interested in vudu unless it has the same or better pq than hddvd and bluray. Peer to peer sounds like it will be some half-arsed comrpessed "near dvd quality" thing. But we will see.

It was an interesting read. Honestly, I'm curious how backup is handled. I mean, let's say my box is fried. Do I get a new box and then am allowed to re-download the films because it's marked on my account? Does this mean I can't take my movie to my friend's house? What about extras? Could movies have "upgrades"? (a studio adds a comentary later for example) and then I only need to partially download the upgrade?

Could I access my box from any internet browser? That way I can download a movie from my desk at work and have it completely downloaded by the time I get home. (Yeah, I know it's supposed to start playing right away but I've seen my share of 'stuck' progress bars.)

I guess I'm just thinking out loud here.


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post #463 of 835 Old 04-29-2007, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirpie View Post

It was an interesting read. Honestly, I'm curious how backup is handled. I mean, let's say my box is fried. Do I get a new box and then am allowed to re-download the films because it's marked on my account? Does this mean I can't take my movie to my friend's house? What about extras? Could movies have "upgrades"? (a studio adds a comentary later for example) and then I only need to partially download the upgrade?

Could I access my box from any internet browser? That way I can download a movie from my desk at work and have it completely downloaded by the time I get home. (Yeah, I know it's supposed to start playing right away but I've seen my share of 'stuck' progress bars.)

I guess I'm just thinking out loud here.

I think you're making a grievous mistake here . I doubt that the powers that be that like this box remotely give a flying f*ck about making a box that is consumer friendly or in ANY way addresses consumer wants. It's all about spoon feeding consumers what they want to feed them them.
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post #464 of 835 Old 04-29-2007, 11:33 PM
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one of their key points was that the PC is totally out of the picture. No PC... no piracy.

Hollywood is not keen on your PC being able to access their content.

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post #465 of 835 Old 04-30-2007, 07:48 AM
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All of the video download solutions have glaring flaws. Either they have less than DVD resolution, have unfriendly rental policies, don't allow transfers to any other device so you can only watch on the device it was downloaded to, don't offer the "extras" you get with disc based content, force you to buy/use proprietary hardware, don't offer full HD versions, etc. Many times the insult is compounded by a mix of the above. Because of laws like the DMCA, the options available for downloadable video content all have serious compromises. Without having to compete with legal DVD disc rips, the industry offers consumers these less than ideal solutions instead. Sure, bandwidth limitations and disagreements on how to go about it the best way play a role (after all the music industry is still bothering with multiple downloadable DRM formats that don't play well together), but I have to believe that if DVD ripping was legal we'd see better solutions than this by this point.

Vudu certainly does have their work cut out for them. They're asking consumers to shell out money for hardware that apparently can only be used for this service. The other major obstacle is their lack of name recognition. Apple TV, Tivo/Amazon, Microsoft's 360, etc are all well known names. They're also products that serve other purposes and, at least in the case of the 360 and Tivo, is a box consumers may already have. To me it's an uphill battle at least and I'd guess that they don't make it in the long run.

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post #466 of 835 Old 04-30-2007, 09:01 AM
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My question is how can a startup without a released product (Vudu) get all major studies (save Sony) to license their movies, while Kaleidescape can't seem to get any?
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post #467 of 835 Old 04-30-2007, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ptrubey View Post

My question is how can a startup without a released product (Vudu) get all major studies (save Sony) to license their movies, while Kaleidescape can't seem to get any?

That's a fair question and I wonder whether the DVDCCA CSS issue has turned the studios cold to K. As in, you found a loophole and got the best of us so we won't play ball with you on downloadable content. That's absolutely just sheer speculation though.

One other very possible reason could be K's small user base. I don't know anything about the licensing deals the studios have with content distributors, but the studios could be demanding contract clauses that contain minimum sales volumes or possibly some stiff up front cost just to get into the game. As the content owners, they can dictate the costs and terms especially in these earlier days of downloadable offerings when competition hasn't yet driven costs down. A fair argument could be made that it isn't worthwhile for the studios to bother with a distribution partner that can only do a relatively small sales volume. While Vudu may not succeed long term, convincing studios that their user base will be far greater than K's is easy given the vast difference in hardware costs.

Just my $0.02

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post #468 of 835 Old 04-30-2007, 10:27 AM
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Well, Vudu looks like a disaster waiting to happen to me. They rely on (admitedly proprietary) peer to peer networking to download movie chunks to customers while customers are watching movies in real time??? Gosh, when I power down my home router, won't it be a drag that another customer's movie grinds to a halt? And aren't a lot of broadband connections asymetric meaning uploads speeds are a lot slower than download speeds (thus relying on peer to peer for real time movie watching being not a good idea) And they rely on predictive algorithms to pre-load the beginnings of movies onto your local hard drive. Well, what happens when you start to watch a non-predicted movie?

This idea that our current broadband infrastructure can support even DVD (forget HD!) real time movie watching isn't based on reality. The only thing that makes sense is an ordering model where you order one or a bunch of movies ahead of time and watch them after they have completely downloaded to a hard drive array - ie using hardware comparable to what Kaleidescape has in place. Hard drives are cheap enough now to implement a system where entire movie collections are downloaded over a period of weeks or months, and you pay for the downloaded content only when you watch it.

Maybe Kaleidescape needs to hire a Hollywood deal maker and get its ass in gear. According to that Vudu article, when Kaleidescape first started inquiring about this from Hollywood, they were too early. Things changed only about mid-last year...
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post #469 of 835 Old 04-30-2007, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptrubey View Post

Well, Vudu looks like a disaster waiting to happen to me. They rely on (admitedly proprietary) peer to peer networking to download movie chunks to customers while customers are watching movies in real time??? Gosh, when I power down my home router, won't it be a drag that another customer's movie grinds to a halt? And aren't a lot of broadband connections asymetric meaning uploads speeds are a lot slower than download speeds (thus relying on peer to peer for real time movie watching being not a good idea) And they rely on predictive algorithms to pre-load the beginnings of movies onto your local hard drive. Well, what happens when you start to watch a non-predicted movie?

This idea that our current broadband infrastructure can support even DVD (forget HD!) real time movie watching isn't based on reality. The only thing that makes sense is an ordering model where you order one or a bunch of movies ahead of time and watch them after they have completely downloaded to a hard drive array - ie using hardware comparable to what Kaleidescape has in place. Hard drives are cheap enough now to implement a system where entire movie collections are downloaded over a period of weeks or months, and you pay for the downloaded content only when you watch it.

Maybe Kaleidescape needs to hire a Hollywood deal maker and get its ass in gear. According to that Vudu article, when Kaleidescape first started inquiring about this from Hollywood, they were too early. Things changed only about mid-last year...

I agree completely, there is no way that the current internet structure in the U.S. could be used to create a system that could compare to the Kscape system in any way. (For comparison, assuming that you could upload at 8mps and download at 8mps, I think it would still take almost 9 days to download 750Gig. The old pony express could probably get data to you quicker via a mailed harddrive, so 1 or 2 day mail for a 750gig hd is way faster than almost any current internet connection).

I think the only way for an online system to match the Kscape system would be to have a local internet provider have Petabyte arrays with all the content and then stream that to you via WiMax (or a more reliable wireless signal) or via cable (should be enough bandwidth once all the analog junk is taken off). A system like that could actually be more robust than the Kscape (think access to all movies, music, tv, games etc. in the highest resolution available) but it would obviously take a lot of work to get the content providers and internet providers to agree on all the details (and a company like Kscape to make the interface work).

I think this is the future of where things are going but it will probably take at least 10 years or more before it really gets going. Alternatively, if there is a breakthough in massive storage (ie. without having a room full of servers), perhaps it could be possible to store all media (eg. think every disc owned by NetFlix and Napster) in your home. The content could be encrypted and then you only pay for what you access (I think Directv is or will be using this technology soon). Then once a week you would get a 1TB holographic disc to upload onto your home server that included last week's new releases.

I know both these ideas are far-fetched, but just thinking outside the box for what type of system could replace the current system of buying discs and then dealing with the DRM issues to access the media the way you want. In the meantime, it seems that there will be a never ending stream of products that will all sacrifice key features but advertise that they are the greatest product to have.
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post #470 of 835 Old 04-30-2007, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iansilv View Post

So- though I might bump- the trial is over, BD+ seems like it will be implemented sooner rather than later, does anyone know anything about managed copy?


http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/111570/h...vie-discs.html
Quote"Dan Glickman, who heads the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA), told an industry conference that managed copying should be available for HD DVD discs by the end of the year, adding that he would like to see it enabled for standard DVDs as well, though this would require a new DRM system. He made no mention of Blu-ray, the rival high-definition format to HD DVD."

HDPLEX
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post #471 of 835 Old 05-02-2007, 05:09 AM
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I have been saying all along that managed copy will be out with Vista Service Pack 2 sometime around the beginning of 08.


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post #472 of 835 Old 05-02-2007, 07:01 AM
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Well obviously Dan has been listening to you (aren't you the one that coined the term managed copy).
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post #473 of 835 Old 05-02-2007, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

I have been saying all along that managed copy will be out with Vista Service Pack 2 sometime around the beginning of 08.

Amir said at least 6-12 month after the AACS finalization. So the earliest is around the 3Q08.

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post #474 of 835 Old 05-03-2007, 05:39 AM
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Replace a couple of words in your post and it reads exactly like some of the critics of the Apple iPod when it was first launched!

Uphill battle it may well be, but not insurmountable.

As for the other comments around whether the current Broadband networks can support this, perhaps not in North America, but in many other parts of the world, Broadband networks are already delivering standard definition broadcast as well as On-Demand TV over Broadband to the masses. Here in Hong Kong theres already just over a million subscribers of SD broadcast and On-Demand TV over Broadband (google PCCW NowTV). Korea and Japan has more than twice those number of subscribers. High Definition On-Demand TV over Broadband is also a reality in Japan today. I expect Verizon/FiOS isn't far off.

Other than with ADSL2 and FTTH, these services are delivered via standard multicast technology. Couple those with specialised peer-to-peer networking software/hardware.... suddenly Vudu doesn't sound so far fetched anymore.

Welcome to the real world.


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Originally Posted by rgbyhkr View Post

All of the video download solutions have glaring flaws. Either they have less than DVD resolution, have unfriendly rental policies, don't allow transfers to any other device so you can only watch on the device it was downloaded to, don't offer the "extras" you get with disc based content, force you to buy/use proprietary hardware, don't offer full HD versions, etc. Many times the insult is compounded by a mix of the above. Because of laws like the DMCA, the options available for downloadable video content all have serious compromises. Without having to compete with legal DVD disc rips, the industry offers consumers these less than ideal solutions instead. Sure, bandwidth limitations and disagreements on how to go about it the best way play a role (after all the music industry is still bothering with multiple downloadable DRM formats that don't play well together), but I have to believe that if DVD ripping was legal we'd see better solutions than this by this point.

Vudu certainly does have their work cut out for them. They're asking consumers to shell out money for hardware that apparently can only be used for this service. The other major obstacle is their lack of name recognition. Apple TV, Tivo/Amazon, Microsoft's 360, etc are all well known names. They're also products that serve other purposes and, at least in the case of the 360 and Tivo, is a box consumers may already have. To me it's an uphill battle at least and I'd guess that they don't make it in the long run.

Jeff

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post #475 of 835 Old 05-05-2007, 09:38 AM
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How much is the typical cost of a Kaleidescape system (MSRP and typical price to customer by custom installer)?
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post #476 of 835 Old 05-05-2007, 12:44 PM
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It's a highly configurable system (i.e. lots of options), so the following should be understood to be a guide only...

The single space server including a move player/reader starts at 10K

The 5 space server including a movie player/reader starts under 20K.

From there the price increases depending on the amount of storage and number of players.
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post #477 of 835 Old 05-05-2007, 01:34 PM
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So I guess the single space server just has a smaller hard drive capacity? How much are the individual players?
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post #478 of 835 Old 05-05-2007, 01:36 PM
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Yes to the first question. $3500.
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post #479 of 835 Old 05-06-2007, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewChen View Post

Replace a couple of words in your post and it reads exactly like some of the critics of the Apple iPod when it was first launched!

Uphill battle it may well be, but not insurmountable.

As for the other comments around whether the current Broadband networks can support this, perhaps not in North America, but in many other parts of the world, Broadband networks are already delivering standard definition broadcast as well as On-Demand TV over Broadband to the masses. Here in Hong Kong theres already just over a million subscribers of SD broadcast and On-Demand TV over Broadband (google PCCW NowTV). Korea and Japan has more than twice those number of subscribers. High Definition On-Demand TV over Broadband is also a reality in Japan today. I expect Verizon/FiOS isn't far off.

Other than with ADSL2 and FTTH, these services are delivered via standard multicast technology. Couple those with specialised peer-to-peer networking software/hardware.... suddenly Vudu doesn't sound so far fetched anymore.

Welcome to the real world.

While Apple wasn't a known player in the general consumer electronics space pre-iPod, they were certainly a very well known name. Vudu, on the other hand, is completely unknown. I don't think any of us would disagree that Jobs and Co took the iPod wave and used it as a vehicle to change the entire face of the company. But again, they had a HUGE head start over an unknown startup.

Vudu's problem is that they are jumping into a space that already has players which the public is already familiar with. It sounds like their technological implementation offers advantages but will they be able to convey that to consumers? That's a serious question they'll have to answer. Over time, I think we can expect most of the services to offer the same content. So from there, how are you going to differentiate yourself from other players? Amazon, Microsoft, Sony (likely later this year with the PS3), Netflix, etc all have this same challenge but all are operating with a distinct advantage over Vudu. Is it impossible for them to succeed especially given this lower opearting cost via the technology? No, but it won't be an easy road at all. In my mind, their best chance at success would be for the service to be integrated into other hardware manufacturers' boxes rather than trying to go it alone.

The broadband issue is an interesting one. The question becomes whether or not users will see current infrastructure limitations (talking about the US market here) as the real reason behind some of the content inconveniences or not. I remember reading a VC proposal 5 or 6 years ago for a company looking to offer on demand content via broadband. Then, there was a much bigger problem with the lack of broadband penetration. Things are different now but are still a bit behind when it comes to HD demands. FIOS is promising, but the infrastructure build-up is time consuming. Yes, broadband penetration and speed in some other countries is better than what the US has. However Vudu, like so many other providers of this type, will likely start with rights distribution in the US market first so the limitations here are major considerations. To me, downloadable content providers need to be offering services that can work well with what is widely available now, rather than depend on the rollout of higher bandwidth networks. Vudu's technology may very well give them an edge with the bandwidth issue, but we'll have to see if the concept plays out well in real world implementations. By the way, Given how Verizon has been expanding the service offering choices over FIOS, I would not be surprised to see them either expand their OnDemand choices to rival what you might get from any of these other services, or partner with one of them directly. Whoever lands that deal will have an advantage within that subscriber base.

On a personal level, I'm not against any of these services. I want more choices, more competition, and as a result, better products. Ideally, I'd still like the ability to choose for myself via legal rips of my DVDs and HD-DVD/BR discs, but that's another argument. It's just that when I look out across the downloadable landscape, all I see now are compromises. We'll get there eventually, but it's going to take time.

Jeff

I'm nerdy in the extreme, I'm whiter than sour cream...
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post #480 of 835 Old 05-24-2007, 08:40 PM
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Article about managed copy. Too early to say but the tone of this article sounds very good for K.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/13221...l?tk=nl_dnxnws
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