Kaleidescape- how will it handle Bluray and HD DVD with hdcp? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 835 Old 03-08-2006, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted W View Post

I saw the music version (or capability) at CES and it was fantastic, as you might expect. I wonder what the price and dates for the audio-only system will be.

The server they have is really overkill for audio only. I cannot imagine there being many people who could fill up one of their servers with the 500GB drives using only music. That would be in excess of 5TB of storage!

You can get a system that is video only, or audio + video. There is no audio only system right now and the cost differential would be so slight that I can't see why somebody wouldn't get video with it.
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post #182 of 835 Old 03-08-2006, 01:44 PM
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That is great news on the 4 zone audio player. I was trying to figure out how to handle multiple audio zones.

As I understand the audio interface is only supported by Crestron and us AMX guys are out of luck as of now? Anyone know more about this?

JOE
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post #183 of 835 Old 03-08-2006, 02:22 PM
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That is erroneous.

CRESTRON AND AMX are fully supported with all sorts of new features as well. As well, there is a Java Applet that allows everything from a PC or even a pocket PC

In addition, all their code set is fully documented and available for download. Drivers can be written for virtually any control device.

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post #184 of 835 Old 03-08-2006, 03:20 PM
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OK thanks for the clarification. I won't mention who told me but he knows you.

JOE
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post #185 of 835 Old 03-08-2006, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Dizzman- do you work for Kaleidescape?
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post #186 of 835 Old 03-08-2006, 03:28 PM
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post #187 of 835 Old 03-08-2006, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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right on. Well, It was explained to me how the entire thing works- the person demoing it had it setup and just unplugged it. He plugged it back in, went othe movie, and started the movie right from that point wher eit had been cut off. Seconds to boot up. It was truly amazing- not a computer, very neat technology.
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post #188 of 835 Old 03-09-2006, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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How does it work with multiple servers clustered?
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post #189 of 835 Old 03-09-2006, 09:50 PM
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You plug all the servers in and then go to the installer web utility. Select the groups tab and it will least all the servers as their own independant group. For each server, select a pull down box that says "Join group xxx" and put it in the group with your primary server. Your readers and players need to be grouped with a specified server group as well.

It took me less than 10 seconds to cluster my servers and move my players/readers to the group.

This is nice in that you can have two seperate systems on one network - very handy for installers who are loading discs for a client while their own server is on the network. It also allows you to take your readers and unjoin a current group and move them to another so they load a different server.

I have had 3 servers in 2 groups with 2 single disc readers and a bulk loader running simultaneously with no problems. I was loading 4 discs at a time and still able to watch films off the server that was being loaded.
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post #190 of 835 Old 03-10-2006, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow- how does it handle "bonus discs" that come with movies- like the disc 2 with extras and stuff.
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post #191 of 835 Old 03-10-2006, 08:23 AM
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Bonus discs are listed under the options if you load them:

Play Movie
Play Disc -> Disc 1
Disc 2
Play Trailer
Play Scene...
Add to Collection...

I normally do not load the bonus disc, as I rarely want to watch the making of featurette more than once. Sadly, most of those "extra scenes" are of such poor quality that it really disappoints when on a big screen. A lot of them aren't even anamorphic.
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post #192 of 835 Old 04-02-2006, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Not trying to resurrect a dead thread, but I noticed that there have been some developments in the area of AACS and managed copy as hd dvd and bluray standards are coming to market- does anyone know anything about how managed copy might speed up/slow down the implementation of these disks in to the kaledidescape system?
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post #193 of 835 Old 04-03-2006, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iansilv View Post

Not trying to resurrect a dead thread, but I noticed that there have been some developments in the area of AACS and managed copy as hd dvd and bluray standards are coming to market- does anyone know anything about how managed copy might speed up/slow down the implementation of these disks in to the kaledidescape system?

MMC provides a feasible way for K to incorporate HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs into the system. The assumption here is that MMC provisions as they actually play out (and not just what is technically possible) will allow for copying to a system like the K. The devil, as always, is in the details. The AACS standard as of now is an interim one. The final version which is supposed to come out in the next couple of months will include MMC. There could be delays though as details are worked out and agreed upon by all parties. Even after that, each studio still has to choose whether to allow their content to be copyable and separately streamable (such as in the case of Windows Media Center PCs streaming to Media Center Clients - K's architecture probably puts them in the same category).

Ideally, AACS will finalize by mid-year along with HDMI 1.3 and MMC will be widely embraced by the studios. If that timetable happens, I could see a K solution for the next gen formats by early next year. Delays are possible and almost likely given all the issues we've seen pop up in the new formats so far.

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post #194 of 835 Old 04-03-2006, 08:14 AM
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This is an interesting article I just came across:

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/03/24/ne...dvd/page2.html

I found this quote very interesting:

"Over the last several months, nearly all sides in the dispute have said they are in favor of "managed copy" or "mandatory managed copy," but then got caught up in a quagmire over just what the "mandatory" part refers so. "The idea of mandatory managed copy, and specifically the word 'mandatory,'" explained Doherty, "relates to the ability of the user to make a copy of all the media, with very rare exceptions. So a managed copy - without the word 'mandatory' - means the ability to make a copy of the disc, or essentially a legal rip, into another content protection system onto your hard drive, or onto your portable player, under the control. The 'mandatory' part is specifically put there to mean, studios can't arbitrarily turn it off - that you have the expectation as a consumer that you can rip every disc.""

Of course, there's also this quote:

"For the first time, however, Doherty did concede that there will be some mandate that applies to the studios. "The terms of the copy are under the studio control," he told TG Daily. "So if they want to charge money, and how much money to charge, are [matters] completely under their purview."

This could very easily be used as a way to strictly limit or even outright deter copying for those studios who just don't like the idea. Also, it may take a while for the market to get consistent pricing worked out for this. Sony could charge $10 for the right to copy their titles while Fox charges $20. Hopefully, in a case like that if Fox sees that Sony is taking in a whole lot more revenue due to the lower price, they will follow suit. It could take a while though.

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post #195 of 835 Old 04-03-2006, 08:51 AM
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Interesting development that, IMO, is wayyyyyyy overdue:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/03/s...movies-online/

Still pricey, limited functionality (no PMC support yet and burned DVDs of the movies can't be played back on any regular DVD player) and offering less than DVD quality, but it's a start. I wonder what this means for Jobs' efforts to get mainstream movie content into ITMS.

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post #196 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Poindexter View Post

By the way, how have the prices of high end CD transports like Wadia and Meitner come down with the stiff competition from the $39 DVD players at Wal Mart?

I don't buy this analogy. Videophiles tend to be a different breed from audiophiles and video gear pricing tends to be different from audio.

Take the Denon flagship DVD player of a couple years ago, the 5900. It MSRP'd for $2,000. The 3910 came out, which was basically the same player, but with some improvements and MSRP's for $1,500.

The Sony "Ruby" has already been cited. Close to the Qualia in performance, but at something like 33% of the cost.

Look at digital cameras. 10 years ago, I bought a one megapixel digital camera for $1,600. Now, you can get an 8 megapixel pro-sumer digital camera like a Rebel XT for around $1,000.

Look at plasma displays. i don't know anyone who is out looking to buy those first generation plasmas that went for $25,000. Sixth generation plasmas are six generations improved and go for a fraction of the price.

I don't buy the Lamborghini analogy, either.

The Lamborghini is the result of proprietary engineering, craftsmanship, etc.

What does Kaleidescape offer that, in time, cannot be duplicated by another product?

They offer an elegant solution, but once another company offers an elegant solution, what will Kaleidescape have to offer that is proprietary? Where is their engineering
advantage? Once another company comes out with an elegant solution for a fraction of the price, I don't believe videophiles will pay a premium for Kaleidescape like a car enthusiast will pay a premium for a Lamborghini. There would be no incentive to do so.
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post #197 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

What does Kaleidescape offer that, in time, cannot be duplicated by another product?

They offer an elegant solution, but once another company offers an elegant solution, what will Kaleidescape have to offer that is proprietary? Where is their engineering
advantage? Once another company comes out with an elegant solution for a fraction of the price, I don't believe videophiles will pay a premium for Kaleidescape like a car enthusiast will pay a premium for a Lamborghini. There would be no incentive to do so.

Agreed.

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post #198 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 08:54 AM
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Digital electronics is the great leveler of costs. Proprietary electronics today can be mass produced tomorrow with VLSI integration for a fraction of the cost.

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post #199 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 09:10 AM
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Well of course I agree with you in principle, rsbeck---that if the Kaleidescape's functionality can be duplicated at a lower cost, there will be no reason for people to pay K's premium.

And I'm sure the K folks agree, too. I know this for four reasons. First of all, their prices have already gone down, and will continue to do so. Secondly, from what I know of their product strategy, they do intend to insert themselves into the market at lower price points (with commensurate reduction in features/capacity/etc.). And thirdly, they are not standing still in their product development: music service, alternate content delivery mechanisms, high def...

And fourthly, they have been very aggressive about protecting their IP, some of which may very well be critical to achieving the level of "elegance" you're referring to. For example, they are currently the only company who can legally rip DVDs for you. Yes, CSS disagrees, but I think they'll lose. And whey they do lose, it won't open the door for other companies to do it, because 1) they'll still need a license from CSS; and 2) even if they get one, they'll likely trample on K's patents if they try. So there's a K feature that, for SD DVDs at least, won't readily be duplicated; for all other systems, you'll have to figure out how to rip them yourself. Thankfully HD-DVD and Blu-Ray seem to be implementing MC, which will level this playing field for HD content; but for those of us with sizeable legacy libraries, this feature retains significant value.

The bottom line is, yes, companies will be able to chip away at Kaleidescape's added value, forcing them to bring prices down in the process. And yes, it's entirely possiblke that someone could knock K off the top of the mountain. But K isn't going to make it easy, and I think people on this forum tend to underestimate the value K brings to the table.

Regardless, to whatever degree companies succeed in chipping away at K's lead, it will be to our benefit, the consumers.

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post #200 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 09:24 AM
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Anyone check out the media max which is supposed to be the equivalent of the Kaleidescape?

I tried it and can tell you that it is not to be compared to the Kscape in any way and the price is not substantially less. To me it looks like a Media center PC with a MS OS.

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post #201 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 10:29 AM
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K has very little to do with electronics.

K is all about the software and the "experience" for the user.

K knows this far better than any of the competition. And while many here will refuse to beleive it... it is the hardest lesson of all to comprehend.

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post #202 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 10:47 AM
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The lesson is so hard to comprehend for me, that I haven't become a customer.
The customer is always right.

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post #203 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 11:13 AM
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Tony, your perception of what it is has made your decision and that is cool. from the beginning though, you were so convinced that it was horrendously overpriced that you were not interested in the first place. but i do recall you being far more interested in the software than the hardware (even though in the K case they cannot be seperated)

My point was that in almost every other option; Home brew system, Xperinet, Max, MediaMax, etc... these systems are as complex as computers. None of them were designed with a clear understanding that a 2 year old needs to be able to use it, the non technical wife needs to operate it. As a result, those systems have unneccesary complexity.

If I am the user, and i am fine with it and my wife does not venture forth to try to use it... then that would be fine. But if i want everything in the theatre also available in the bedroom and the living room and the guest room and not need a manual in those rooms... the choices drop off rapidly.

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post #204 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
2) even if they get one, they'll likely trample on K's patents if they try. So there's a K feature that, for SD DVDs at least, won't readily be duplicated

What patent could K possibly have on ripping DVDs? That would involve patenting the read of data off a disc. So there's no way they could stop anyone else from ripping DVDs if it became legal to do so.

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post #205 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 11:17 AM
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If I were the CSS folks, and I lost the suit, then I'd seriously consider the nuclear option. If you can't stop it from being done by K, then license a number of their competitors and get revenge and make money at the same time.

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post #206 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

they'll likely trample on K's patents if they try.

Maybe I don't understand Kaleidescape as well as I think. If other companies gain the right to load DVD's onto a hard drive, what other patents does Kaleidescape hold that would bar anyone else from producing a competing product?

Right now, one can download software from the web for free that will allow one to rip DVD's to a hard drive. So, K-scape does not have an insurmountable lead in that technology. They are not leaders in storage or delivery -- it seems to me they are purchasers of this technology from other companies -- and there is nothing to stop others from purchasing the same technology. It seems to me like there is a population of hackers out there and someone is just a few hacks away from being able to duplicate what K-scape does.

Quote:
The bottom line is, yes, companies will be able to chip away at Kaleidescape's added value, forcing them to bring prices down in the process.

That was my point. Prices are going to drop.

Quote:
And yes, it's entirely possiblke that someone could knock K off the top of the mountain.

This is not where I am heading with my argument. I have no interest in seeing K-scape fail or even to be supassed in market share. They seem like a bright bunch of folks and they may well be able to hold their lead in the marketplace -- I wish them well -- I just think they will be doing it by selling K-scapes at a fraction of their current price.

Quote:
But K isn't going to make it easy, and I think people on this forum tend to underestimate the value K brings to the table.

I do not undersestimate the value K-scape currently brings to the table. If one wants an elegant solution, they are currently the only game in town. They have an excellent product. For anyone who is shopping for a megabuck whole home solution and who wants to be the first on the block, K-scape in not only the only game in town, but they offer a well-thought-out product. Once you get past the price, there is no real downside to owning one.

Quote:
Regardless, to whatever degree companies succeed in chipping away at K's lead, it will be to our benefit, the consumers.

Agree.
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post #207 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 11:23 AM
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My point was that in almost every other option; Home brew system, Xperinet, Max, MediaMax, etc... these systems are as complex as computers. None of them were designed with a clear understanding that a 2 year old needs to be able to use it, the non technical wife needs to operate it. As a result, those systems have unneccesary complexity.

My system is 'home brew', though based on a commercial product. Anyone could clearly use it without any problems to drive the whole home theater and house lighting, weather info, and music/movie browsing, and anything else I might want to hook up.

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post #208 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 11:30 AM
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Right now, one can download software from the web for free that will allow one to rip DVD's to a hard drive. So, K-scape does not have an insurmountable lead in that technology. They are not leaders in storage or delivery -- it seems to me they are purchasers of this technology from other companies

I doubt they even had to purchase it. The information is freely available and it's not difficult to do. They just couldn't have any patents in this area that would prevent anyone else from doing it.

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post #209 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 11:34 AM
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I meant that they buy hard drive and player technology from others.
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post #210 of 835 Old 04-07-2006, 11:36 AM
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Lets be honest, the software you "download for free" is ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In order to have this discussion, one must stop talking about things that are illegal. whether you agree with the laws or not is immaterial.

Licencees is a better term than purchasers where applicable.

Again, the system is not about importing a DVD... it is all the research into usability and how people watch and making a UI that allows ANYBODY to find what they want, and just watch it.

THe funny part here is that the argument about what it is and isn't is usually maintained by many who do not even have the system.

THeose who have it saw it and decided that it was worth it and it provided a value that NOTHING else could. Even guys like Poindexter and Rgby_Hkr who are self professed geeks who love nothing more than tweaking hardware and fiddling with things jumped at K because of what it is.

And that is not a server and a box.

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