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post #271 of 837 Old 04-21-2006, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton
Ok, so you didn't have to twist my arm too hard. ;)

I'm back in! :cool:

I am looking forward to tomorrow.
Superb, we'll be ready. Bring content. I forgot to get all my DVHS and DVDs out of the adjoining media storage room, and now it's all fenced in by the woofer baffle. Luckily e should have all the good stuff already inside the media room, but if you have any favourite VLF content, please bring it with you. Bruce made a DVD with his own VLF cuts. I will have some others.

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post #272 of 837 Old 04-21-2006, 07:10 PM
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tzucc---I know the demo proper begins at 2PM, but at what time will you be ready to receive guests? I'd hate to just listen & run :) (uh, I mean, listen & leave :))

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post #273 of 837 Old 04-21-2006, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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You can swing by a little earlier...

BTW: anyone with a Crown DC300 amp who's coming to the demo, please bring it.
Reasons to be explained when you arrive.

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post #274 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 08:29 AM
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Standing By For Reports Here.

With a complimentary picture of my explaining to this gentleman why he needs a new $13,500 plasma.
LL
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post #275 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 06:02 PM
 
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Just now home from Tzucc's BAAS gathering.

My hat's off to him for not only being a gracious host but so also allowing some temporary construction adjacent to his media room to house this incredible subsonic sub.

As well kudos to both Bruce and Winston who flew from Florida in their private twin engine Cesna for this event. They arrived Wednesday and literally didn't finish the install until just before we all arrived.

Suffice it to say this piece of equipment is the real deal.

For those of us living in California we know what riding out an earthquake means but WOW, standing at the back and in the corner of Tzucc's room, the whole house shook. The demo was terrific. Bruce said that it is the equivalent of 10 Wilson XS subs. Simply amazing

Talking to Bruce this is affordable at $12.9K. For those building a room this is a MUST HAVE!!

We were fortunate as well to have Keith Yates there as well as Mark Seaton who flew in from Chicago.

The usual cast of characters
Tzucc
Me
Michael Grant
Morbius
Mike Poindexter
Ron Party
The_Smokester
Dizzman


There were many others who came along for the demo.

The room was packed.

Congratulations Tzucc
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post #276 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 08:30 PM
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Many thanks to Tzucc for his hospitality, and to Bruce & Winston for the great lengths they went for this demo. Oh, and thanks to Tzucc's family too, for putting up with a couple days of earthquakes.

Two things in particular surprised me about the demo.

First of all, we didn't actually have the volume up that high, and yet the effect was very satisfying. Were it not for the potential installation difficulties this thing presents (it basically requires an infinite baffle), it would be a very wife-friendly device---in that you still get the satisfying bass without having to crank the volume as much. It seems that going deeper reduces the need to go louder. (There's a joke in there somewhere.)

The second surprise is a bit more difficult to describe. Yes, OB is right, this thing is capable of shaking the room, or even the whole house. So in one sense it's a powerful piece of equipment. And it goes deep: without the sub, Tzucc's system can hit about 18-20Hz comfortable; with it, it can go all the way to DC.

But given that, I was surprised by the fact that the addition of the sub didn't add inappropriate boominess: it refined the sound, and didn't dominate it. We did some A/B testing with the sub in place, and without it. With the sub in place, explosions, collisions, etc. were not louder, rather they were fuller, more impactful. It is hard to describe, except that after hearing the content we were missing, we were loathe to do without it.

I would have liked to have heard some music through the sub, but unfortunately we could not find any surround music that could exercise it; and the two-channel system was not piped through it. In terms of bass extension alone it could be a fine addition to two-channel playback; however, the added crossover needs and the slight fan noise might turn off some audiophiles. (The fan noise issue is likely rectifiable to a large extent, and is a non-issue for home theater at nominal volumes.) But at the very least, if someone had this in their system anyway, they could turn it on for material that really exercises that frequency range (pipe organ, for example) and turn it off for the rest.

I am very interested in this piece, without a doubt. I just wish I could figure out how to integrate it into my room design. I am, alas, not sure that I can. I do think that its baffle requirements pose a significant challenge for many installations, though anyone with the opportunity to build a new room can always plan for this. I for one would be willing to trade efficiency for more isolation. But hey, if it can't be done, it can't be done.

Michael
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post #277 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 09:35 PM
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It was tremendously impressive.

THe kicker for me was the clip from Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy when the vogon destructor fleet is announcing to earth waht is going on and then blows up earth. (I might add that they blew it up just moments before the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything was restated)

With the XS (no slouch of a sub) it sounded great.

With the fan, i was reaching for my towel. From the vogons voice, to the explosion itself... it was outstanding.


And to agree with Michael... it was not overpowering. (in the room... THe dead moles may not agree with outsude the room)

And last but not least, thanks to Tzucc for a great time, great vino and great food. And another snapshot of why i need to do very well in life :) I can never bring my wife to your house Tzucc. :D

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

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post #278 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 09:36 PM
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I might add that we missed out on testing OB's CD mat thingie as the meeting fell apart and dumb stuff like acoustics and theory was talked about :)

Honestly though, we did want to try it, we just sort of ran out of time.

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
http://commonsensehasdied.blogspot.com/
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post #279 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 09:37 PM
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Hey Tony, when you post, it might be an idea to start a new thread to talk of the fan so that others can find it.

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
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post #280 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 10:11 PM
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So since the device is below audibility what was the sensation ? Was it air moving, or structural vibration primarily ?

Art

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iRule rules my theater
 

"If she's amazing she won't be easy,if she's easy she won't be amazing"

 

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post #281 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 10:16 PM
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The obvious question...is Tony buying it? Has it found a permanent home?

Second question...did you power the fan with an exotic power cord? I hear the blades spin more accurately then :D.
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post #282 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 10:24 PM
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Hi Michael,

"I am very interested in this piece, without a doubt. I just wish I could figure out how to integrate it into my room design. I am, alas, not sure that I can."

If the problem is the volume behind the fan and not where to put the whole for it, how about in a roof vent, and on top there's essentially a balloon that would inflate/deflate with the signal.

I guess having a Vd to match what the fan driver does at the lowest freq is a tall order - that would be a pretty big balloon. The neighbors might find a huge pulsing sphere on your roof a bit distracting, too.

And while it would seal from the elements, it would let sound in and out.

That *is* a tough problem.

Noah
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post #283 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 10:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Was it air moving, or structural vibration primarily ?
good question...perhaps some of each but in a very unobtrusive fashion.

Everything just sounded so much better with it. When Bruce turned it off and replayed the same scenes with "only" 2 Watchdogs and an XS playing it was as if we were missing something and it was just less fulfilling
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post #284 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz
I guess having a Vd to match what the fan driver does at the lowest freq is a tall order - that would be a pretty big balloon. The neighbors might find a huge pulsing sphere on your roof a bit distracting, too.

And while it would seal from the elements, it would let sound in and out.

That *is* a tough problem.
Not such a tough problem at all, as long as you are not a braggart about "my great new sub". Low bass, especially infrasonic bass is, after all, non-directional ;). The nieghbors could never figure out where it was coming from. Might be coming from the zoo a mile away for all they know. Might even want to put a Big Foot costume on and run through the neighborhood making a roaring expression while cranking up the subwoofer with some appropriate sounds.
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post #285 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 10:52 PM
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THe only reason we knew that air was moving was due to the fact that the doorway to the outdoors was open and they had built a "corridor" for the air that was filled with insulation to get rid of the fan noise. ANd sometimes... THat insulation was shaking like a mother.

I said to a few at the end that if you installed this thing, you would have to tie some streamers to the vent to prove it was working if they did not beleive you.

FOr me, i would far rather dump money on this sucker than many other items that only provide mimal results at best.

THis was Measurable, quantifiable, defineable and freakin cool. not overpowering in the least. It allowed a greater emotional involvement.

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
http://commonsensehasdied.blogspot.com/
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post #286 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 10:53 PM
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For a true high end room... this is a must have! Poor tony is now going to lose it until he figures out how to add it in permanently.

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
http://commonsensehasdied.blogspot.com/
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post #287 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 10:56 PM
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Were any measurements taken? If so, I'd enjoy hearing about them.
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post #288 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 11:09 PM
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Lots. A spectrum analyzer was running the whole time

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
http://commonsensehasdied.blogspot.com/
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post #289 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I will post more impressions later, but the real demo only started later in the session around 6pm, when Mark Seaton got his wish to turn up the volume. Oh boy, did the experience change. We hit around 120dB at 3Hz on Spiderman 2 scenes, and I can only say that I feel quite morose as I write this because this sub gets torn out tomorrow and I will go back to what I view now as seriously lacking bass performance. When we did the A/B with and without, it was a HUGE difference. Recall that I have 2 18" drivers via Wilson XS and a 2400W Crown amp and 2 Watchdogs.

Here's the kicker: as I went upstairs to make a quick call, a neighbot from 1 block away was at the door with their home theatre buff son. Apparently, she and her neighbors were out in their culdesac wondering what in tarnation was going on with the air. They thought there was an off/on earthquake or helicopter or jets spooling up at not too far Moffett Field and it was making them anxious or nauseous, and they couldn't localise the source. She felt it was the ground shaking, not the air moving, and one neighbor was sure their tiles would crack. So she volunteered to make the rounds of houses in the surrounding blocks to see where this sound might be coming from if man made. She ended up at our house. She got a demo, seeing as how she paid the price of admission.

We showed her some clips from Open Range. She ended up wanting to buy one for their home theatre!!!

All I can say is no one is King Of Bass any longer. Bruce's invention has changed the whole equation of sub woofers, and if you don't have his product, you don't have a complete low frequency solution - indeed a solution that matters and is important to the visceral and emotional effect that the director wants to make on you. My mission is to find a way to integrate this product, or two of them, without having to vent outdoors... clearly, my neighbors, and I am not joking here, will not accept the amplitude of very low f. And we are on 7/10 of an acre... homes are not nearby, yet are clearly being affected by the back waves produced by this whirling dervish.

Yes, there are plenty of movies, non action ones too, that have good and plenty low freq content below 20Hz.

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post #290 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 11:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman
For a true high end room... this is a must have! Poor tony is now going to lose it until he figures out how to add it in permanently.
You're actually pretty spot on... I really am sad to see this go.

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post #291 of 837 Old 04-22-2006, 11:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn
So since the device is below audibility what was the sensation ? Was it air moving, or structural vibration primarily ?

Art
No, it's not about feeling air moving, nor about tonality. It's about impactive changes in air pressure that you feel in the ear, neck, and stomach. You can count the changes in pressure and figure out the Hz. I suppose you could say that you can hear it, in that your ear can clearly feel the pressure changes.

Another anecdote, on structural vibration. My wife sleeps quite soundly, in the 3rd floor of our house, the media room being underground and isolated in the other side of the house. She was awaken by the shaking of the house as we were testing at 2am. To contrast, without the fan sub, she can't barely hear or feel any volume of bass in the kitchen with the XS and Dogs cranked up to painful volumes.

Containing this LF will prove a new challenge for home theatre and acoustic designers.

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post #292 of 837 Old 04-23-2006, 01:21 AM
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what is the q of the driver?
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post #293 of 837 Old 04-23-2006, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman
For a true high end room... this is a must have! Poor tony is now going to lose it until he figures out how to add it in permanently.
As I told him during dinner: he will probably be the second person in California to have one in his theater. :D
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post #294 of 837 Old 04-23-2006, 03:34 AM
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Great demo story! I already liked the ideas of the Rotary Woofer and now even more! It must be sensational to experience these ultra low freq.

I have the feeling that the integration of this unit (with a low pass 20Hz@18dB/oct crossover on it and keeping the full range speakers 100% full range) it could even be successful for ultra hi-end audio listening as well. It probably is even easier than the integration of a 'standard' set of super subs as the XS' are.

Tzucc,
Q1: Why are you talking about the use of TWO units in this freq range?
Q2: Is your Crown amp the DSi4000 bridged to mono (2400W@8ohm)? US$?

Bruce / others,
Q3: Is there a general min/max ratio of the infinite baffle of the connected room volume [m3] to the HT-room volume [m3]?

Regards, Rene-L
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post #295 of 837 Old 04-23-2006, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
I will post more impressions later, but the real demo only started later in the session around 6pm, when Mark Seaton got his wish to turn up the volume. Oh boy, did the experience change.
For me the kicker was when we played "Master and Commander" at the increased
volume. There's one part where you watch the adversary ship, the Archeron;
fire a canon right at you.

One summer while attending graduate school in Boston/Cambridge; I attended the
Boston Pops playing on the Esplanade on July 4. The program traditionally ends
with the playing of the 1812 Overture. The sounds of the canons in the
1812 Overture are provided by howitzers stationed on the bank of the Charles River
and fired by the Massachusetts National Guard. Earlier in the day, I was right by
the howitzers when they test fired them.

The firing of the Archeron's canon was very much like how I recalled the feeling of
being near real howitzers going off. This wave of pressure just hits you.

Thank You, tzucc for hosting the demo; and congradulations to Bruce and
company, they have a very impressive subwoofer.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #296 of 837 Old 04-23-2006, 07:02 AM
 
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It really was more than impressive.

It was a heightened listening (and viewing) experience.

There is no doubt in my mind that it can be successfully integrated with a two channel audio sytem.

Tzucc...having stood in the corner at normal listening levels and felt the walls and floor shake, I can hardly imagine what went on when Mark Seaton got you to turn up the volume for Spiderman.

Gosh...if a neighbor came knocking I would probably be checking the integrity of my walls.

My initial feeling when I was standing in he corner and feeling the swaying was that this felt to me just like a true California earthquake.

I can't imagine how you would honestly want two in your house.

BTW, as I got there before everyone else and was pulling into your driveway not only could I hear the demo from your room BUT the entire driveway was shaking.

My question to any structural engineers reading is what is the possibility for damage to one's walls etc with this sub playing?
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post #297 of 837 Old 04-23-2006, 07:39 AM
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Sounds like a very enjoyable demo. Did Mark do some plots ?

Art

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iRule rules my theater
 

"If she's amazing she won't be easy,if she's easy she won't be amazing"

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn
Sounds like a very enjoyable demo. Did Mark do some plots ?

Art

Bruce had a spectrum analyzer running throughout the event.


I am hoping that Mark will be at my house this afternoon.

Most of us left before the SPL got turned way up.
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post #299 of 837 Old 04-23-2006, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rene-L
Great demo story! I already liked the ideas of the Rotary Woofer and now even more! It must be sensational to experience these ultra low freq.

I have the feeling that the integration of this unit (with a low pass 20Hz@18dB/oct crossover on it and keeping the full range speakers 100% full range) it could even be successful for ultra hi-end audio listening as well. It probably is even easier than the integration of a 'standard' set of super subs as the XS' are.

Tzucc,
Q1: Why are you talking about the use of TWO units in this freq range?
Q2: Is your Crown amp the DSi4000 bridged to mono (2400W@8ohm)? US$?

Bruce / others,
Q3: Is there a general min/max ratio of the infinite baffle of the connected room volume [m3] to the HT-room volume [m3]?

Regards, Rene-L
Rene, I am using a Crown K2 amp, bridged to 2400W. It's in the price range of USD 1000-2000.
Two units in order to push up the SPL at 3Hz to above 125dB.

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post #300 of 837 Old 04-23-2006, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn
Sounds like a very enjoyable demo. Did Mark do some plots ?
Art,

Both Mark and Bruce captured a lot of data. Perhaps they will be able to post some.

Another interesting thing we did was while Mark and Bruce were running frequency
sweeps - to go outside and watch the subwoofer in action.

There is an outside stairway that leads to tzucc's underground theater complex -
a door at the bottom of the stairs opens onto an area just outside the theater.
That doorway was fitted with a temporary plywood baffle - with a hole in the
bottom encircling the subwoofer's blades. The subwoofer is just outside that door.

So you can stand at the top of the stairs and watch the subwoofer spinning away
at the bottom of the stairs. Then when Bruce and Mark ran a sweep you could
see the blades flare and you were subjected to this low rumbling.

Mr. Poindexter took some video of this and he may [ there was some question
as to whether his video software could handle it ] be able to provide some type
of video for people to see.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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