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Old 08-23-2006, 12:41 PM
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Jeff, Outside radiation represents an ideal installation as far inside performance is concerned for extremely low frequencies, however outside you can count on the sound levels attenuating at a rate of between 1/distance and the inverse square law 1/d^2. You might measure 90dB at 100feet. Your house would block some of the radiation but not all. Rather than the house more likely in tzuccs case was the terrain around his house which was much larger than the wavelengths and able to funnel the sound to particular homes. Regarding neighbors you should consider both terrain and distance.

Art, download our test DVD and see how your system does. If you come to Denver I will be playing this and you can get a direct comparison. The movie cuts I will be playing are not the typical explosions. I believe this woofer technology has more value where a very quiet suspenseful scene has between 5-10Hz panned in for effect. I will post a list of scenes that we are going to play in a few days so you can try them. I would guess that most are completely passed up by conventional woofers.

In the movie V for Vendetta there is a scene where a TV remote button is pushed. The "click" sound effect by accident had 3-9Hz thump at about -10dB from reference level! As Mr. Poindexter has pointed out some of this is not intentional.

Jetlag, I like the attic installation or basement installation best provided that the attic or basement is above or below the theater. Sound above or below the theater is out of phase and tends to cancel in the remainder of the house. Also outside radiation is almost zero which takes care of your questions 2 and 3.

You also need a good low distortion woofer system to get you to 20Hz, Art, Jeff and tzucc already have this covered. The rotary woofer tunes to some degree, but does not follow Thiele Small parameters. You cannot plug infinity into some of the terms. Its pressure response is different but it does follow what is understood to some degree. Smaller backspace volumes tend to increase the output at higher frequencies, around 20Hz, and restricts maximum output at very low frequencies. Larger backspace volumes tend to allow full output down to near zero Hz and the woofer exhibits rolloff at higher frequencies. The shifts are less significant than the overall efficiency which is best with larger backspace volumes. Any woofer can play 1Hz to10Hz, it just that they are grossly inefficient at those frequencies. Efficiency is extremely important to make the spectrum below 20Hz meaningful. Thanks again for the questions

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Old 08-23-2006, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Bruce, check out Poseidon ... the new DVD that was released to Blockbuster yesterday... besides incredibly well done special effects (you won't or shouldn't go on a Princess cruise after seeing this), I have a feeling it's going to have some tremendous sub 20Hz.

Check it out sometime.

And yes, I confirmed my two WD's can play at 1Hz, using your test DVD, however, I felt or heard absolutely nothing. Even putting my head right next to the cone which was moving quite a bit, but to no avail. Yes, it is all about moving massive quantities of air at this wavelength.

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Old 08-23-2006, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by brucet
"For fun we measured 117dB maximum at 0Hz in a leaky room. I am not sure this has any value, but it is an interesting spec."

I had trouble staying in a room with 10Hz signal running through my subs at a lot lower output than 117db. I can not imagine being anywhere near a room with that kind of air moving at that amplitude---it seems like some critical body parts could explode (or worse) at that kind of pressure !!

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Old 08-23-2006, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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really? I think at anything less than 100dB, you can't feel or hear 10Hz, even if you were to sit on the woofer. That's the whole point of Bruce's invention... at the ultra low frequencies, the human sensitivity goes way down, and we need massive movement of air to feel or hear or sense anything, and paper cones just don't get there unless you have a dozen or so 18" at least and lots power and excursion.

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Old 08-23-2006, 05:27 PM
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Audioguy

At 0Hz no air is moving. 117dB at zero hertz is not really sound but a change in air pressure expressed in dB relative to .0002dynes/cm^2. This change in air pressure is extremely small and would be similar to the way the air pressure changes with weather. It is not the kind of pressure change that will even "pop" your ears. You would experience something similar when the air conditioning in your house turned on.

To gain some confidence in very low frequency sound measurements we were interested in how close this method of measuring "sound" came to sound level measurements using microphones which are also just pressure measurements.

The measurement was made with a pressure gauge, a Dwyer bourdon tube commonly used in a paint booth to measure the pressure drop across air filters, or in air conditioning duct measurements. We also backed this up with a flow meter and pressure/temperature charts and wet bulb/dry bulb measurements. The microphones I have will not go to zero Hz, but get pretty close.

To do this with cone woofers you will need about 9 eighteen inch woofers in sealed boxes and also a perfectly sealed home theater sized room. The cones will have to all move outward about one-half inch and then stop. This represents no sound with no more cone movement, just a pressure change in the room. If they moved out to that point very slowly, you would not notice anything at all but achieve the same pressure change. If there are any leaks in the room you would not have much if any pressure change.

This was a genuine measurement to back up other test data, but my comment intended as humor. brucet
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Old 08-23-2006, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Bruce or others... why do my XS 18" drivers move so little back and forth, compared to the WD's super long throw drivers. It can't just be the size, can it? Is there a concern that the driver material would deform? Why hasn't somebody developed a long throw 18" driver?

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Old 08-23-2006, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
really? I think at anything less than 100dB, you can't feel or hear 10Hz, even if you were to sit on the woofer.
I only know what I experienced (I don't remember the SPL). At the time I had two subs, each with 4 12inch drivers and the excursion of the drivers was quite large and I can assure you it was somewhat uncomfortable to be in the room. I could hear nothing but I could sure feel it.

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Old 08-23-2006, 08:43 PM
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tzucc,

The drivers in your XS can move plenty; about 1.5" p-p. Of course you have to drive them hard enough. Since you've never found the clip light on your K2, I'm betting there's plenty more drive level available. 2500W will most certainly get those drivers moving. 18" drivers with more than 3"p-p have been made. Of course you then need a box and amplifier that allows you to put that much Xmax to use.

As I've pointed out before tzucc, don't guage all woofers by your own examples so far as VLF. Both of your subwoofers are vented designs which will ultimately and progressively "short circuit" their output below the port/vent tuning frequency which is part of the trade off for the potentially increased sensitivity/output around the tuning frequency. A sealed sub does have falling sensitivity & efficiency at VLF, but if the cone displaces sufficient air volume, a specific SPL is generated.

The demo experience and experimentation at your home with Bruce's rotary woofer spurred more examination and experimentation with the VLF range that I was already such a fan of (excuse the pun ;) ). What I see as really setting Bruce's device appart is the efficiency, the exceedingly low distortion, the capability below 5Hz, and most importantly the SPL capabilities in larger spaces. I do think there are some important factors that need to be examined in relation to what has been discussed thus far with sound escaping to the surrounding area.

An interesting connundrum is that the rooms most likely to put such a device to use are fairly well isolated for noise isolation to provide a quiet listening space and/or not annoy those not in the room. While isolation is not easy in the sub 10-20Hz range, I would be very surprised if these rooms didn't better isolate than the rear chamber of an attic or other space. The difference in isolation makes for the sound that gets radiated to the surrounding environment. Certainly something that needs some more investigation.

That said, 5-10Hz extension is not purely reserved for those with a rotary woofer. I make no claims that this is as clean, but these 4 different responses are from 4 different rooms (at the listening position). You can easily see which room uses a vented sub tuned to 18-20Hz and where the other 3 are sealed units. These responses are not at the output limits, but happened to all be similar in level when quickly looking through recent measurements. These are all post-EQ and through the pre-pro input, so the entire system high pass is accounted for. At tzucc's we did see that my measurement system is flat to about 6Hz, so these should be pretty accurate measurements.

http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton...subs4rooms.jpg

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Old 08-23-2006, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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5-10Hz extension however needs to be at 110dB plus or else it seems to be of little value.

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Old 08-23-2006, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
5-10Hz extension however needs to be at 110dB plus or else it seems to be of little value.
"Value" is a bit subjective. Personally I've found very noticable subjective benefits when you start getting past the 100dB mark at the listening position. In a few rooms averaging maybe 2500 cu.ft., I've been seeing 100-105dB around 10Hz with a single one of my own subs, and I'm working on something pretty reasonable in size that does 6-10dB more in that range and much cleaner. For a point of reference, those 100-105dB figures come from a sub that produces maximum ground-plane output of 93-96dB @ 10Hz @ 1m.

The physics of the situation suggest there will be a point of handing off where different approaches will have more benefit. Where a room larger than maybe 5,000 cu.ft. will provide less VLF gain for a conventional subwoofer, this is where the rotary subwoofer starts to gain a lot of ground (provided a suitable rear space). As the room gets smaller the same quality that provides gain to a conventional subwoofer starts to hinder the rotary subwoofer such that it hits a maximum SPL capability. Granted, that capability is quite high, and a conventional subwoofer will require more power, and will not likely be quite as clean, but the point is that the benefits are not only limited to those who can install and afford the rotary subwoofer. As you found during your demo, it is also not a simple task to find electronics that have extended response below 5-10Hz. I have been finding that the 5-10Hz range is a rather pratical extension to achieve in the electronic section of the playback chain without searching too hard.

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Old 08-23-2006, 11:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Certainly, value is very subjective and my use of the word here even vague. I think someone needs to experience the RSW vs standard techniques to see if the 'value' is there for themselves.

Regarding the electronics, a $200 cheap 200w amp I found at Fry's had flat response to near DC. Bruce pointed out that cheapie amps rarely invest in any DC or VLF output protection, and so they make great amps for his deal. It is the more expensive amps that seem to cut out below 20Hz, or at least spec it that way.

p.s. if your products can kick some ass, I might sell off my WDs and XS, and acquire several of your products to take care of business from 17Hz on up.

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Old 08-24-2006, 12:23 AM
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Indeed and agreed,

I generally feel there are a couple different levels/areas of "usefulness" that VLF extension can add to the listening/viewing experience.

I should re-clarify that I do feel that Bruce's device offers something quite unique and useful and don't mean to imply that these other options are direct alternates, but rather different options/approaches in the same spirit. With regards to seeing the 10Hz output I have observed from one sub, the air-moving capability I'm referring to for the 100-105dB is pretty close to what a pair of Velodyne DD18s are capable of per multiple 3rd party measurements.

While some will undoubtedly question the importance, there is another reason I brought up the LF coupling that is typically observed in room as it applies to integrating with the rotary subwoofer. The reasonbly flat responses shown above open up a very interesting possibility of implementing a linear phase, 2nd order crossover between a sealed subwoofer and the rotary subwoofer. It's not as obvious a "textbook" XO, but is very possible to implement with a suitable speaker processor like the Lake products.

You might find this article from July's Stereophile an interesting overview that brings up some interesting questions and possibilities...

Wayward Down Deep - by Keith Howard

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Old 08-24-2006, 07:49 AM
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Out of curiosity, does anyone know whether or not <20Hz content will be more prevalent in the new sound formats on either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray? Obvioulsy it is far from standard on DVD, just wondered if this information has been disclosed?
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Old 08-24-2006, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetlag
Out of curiosity, does anyone know whether or not <20Hz content will be more prevalent in the new sound formats on either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray? Obvioulsy it is far from standard on DVD, just wondered if this information has been disclosed?
Jetlag,

There's nothing in the DVD, HD-DVD, or Blu-Ray standards that inhibits <20 Hz content.

All these formats have the bandwidth to do <20 Hz content. There's not much difference
in bandwidth between a 20 Hz to 20 kHZ range, and a 0 Hz to 20 kHz range; so we get
the latter by default.

The real question is whether the original soundtrack contained much <20 Hz content. However,
if the original soundtrack had that sub-sonic content; then the DVD or high-rez format will have
the sub-sonic content too [ provided nobody did anything to explicitly remove that content].

As we found out during the demo of the Thigpen rotary subwoofer in tzucc's theater; movies
like "Master and Commander" have plenty of sub-sonic content in the movie soundtrack and
hence on the DVD.

It appears that there is no lack of source material for sub-sonic content; and the current
recording formats capture that sub-sonic content and pass it along quite nicely.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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Old 08-24-2006, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetlag
Out of curiosity, does anyone know whether or not <20Hz content will be more prevalent in the new sound formats on either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray? Obvioulsy it is far from standard on DVD, just wondered if this information has been disclosed?
The medium is not generally a limiting factor in the VLF recording. The front end electronics and monitoring of that content is more so. If you have an hour or two, feel free to scan through this huge thread at HTF that shows a good scattering of some more notable bassy scenes:
Frequency waterfall charts of a few familiar favourites

You can also find similar details on a few other clips in many different areas on the net as well as in Keith Yates's Way Down Deep report at Ultimate AV's website.

The trend has been one of steadily increasing VLF content, and I suspect that the existence of devices like the rotary fan subwoofer will only bring more attention to this frequency range and it's potential use. I also suspect we will eventually start seeing HT processors with adjustable subsonic filters.

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Old 08-24-2006, 08:50 AM
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Is there any issues with these high spl's and air movement on the other drivers?
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Old 08-28-2006, 11:26 AM
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Lewis 68,

There is minimal interaction between the rotary subwoofer and any other speaker system. It is no different than the interaction between a conventional subwoofer and another speaker system.

Art - Besides our own content I will be playing short clips from some of these movies at Cedia. Many of these are on other list that Mark refers to, a few are not. I am choosing content that is 10Hz down and where there would be a noticeable difference between a system with strong output in the 15-20 Hz range and one including the rotary woofer. I look forward to meeting those who can visit us in Denver. brucet

Unforgotten
Hellboy
Exit wounds
Alone in the dark
Confidence
They
Black Hawk down
Hitchhikers guide
Dawn of the dead
Today you die
Die another day
Boogie man
Freddy vs jason
The hulk
Mulholland drive
Open range
Incredibles
From hell
V for vendetta
The village
Master and Commander
Mummy
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Old 08-28-2006, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucet
There is minimal interaction between the rotary subwoofer and any other speaker system. It is no different than the interaction between a conventional subwoofer and another speaker system.
Bruce,

One could also say that it's no different than the interaction between the speaker systems and the
room's heating and air conditioning system.

In the demo at tzucc's theater, Bruce's spectrum analyzer showed that the lowest frequencies in
the room were independent of program material, and were due to the effects of the HVAC system.

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Physicist
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Old 08-28-2006, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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that's true... to add more detail to Morbius comment, Bruce's spectrum analyzer showed this 1Hz spike... and he was bothered about not being to explain what the heck it was... we knew the HVAC was off. Later on, I told Bruce the story about how the HVAC people had forgotten that the room was sealed and they should include a fresh air exchanger, which runs all the time. Then Bruce realized what the 1Hz spike was caused by!

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Old 08-28-2006, 02:13 PM
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Hi

What are the effects of prolonged exposure to <20 Hz sounds at over 100 dB? While we may not hear them very well, I remember having read somewhere they are potentially dangerous...

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Old 08-28-2006, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Same as the effects of driving in your car with your window open for the same period of time?
Though I think the car wind noise is much higher than 100dB.

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Old 08-28-2006, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrantzM
What are the effects of prolonged exposure to <20 Hz sounds at over 100 dB? While we may not hear them very well, I remember having read somewhere they are potentially dangerous...
FrantzM,

Just like other sounds, I think you gradually go sub-sonic deaf as all the body hairs that sense
these low frequencies die off. :)

On a more serious note; did you have any trouble with Ernesto? I remember this weekend when
they said that Ernesto was hitting Haiti; I wondered how you were dealing with the storm.

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Physicist
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Old 08-28-2006, 03:15 PM
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Thanks Greg

So far a lot of rain, some wind on my part of the island... There have been some mudslides but the damage extent is not well known... Commercial power got knocked down then again not much of it anyway so generator has been working overtime... Not much to do but reading, listening to music and watching movies, worrying a lot about the fates of the poorest people living in places where mud slildes are common, wonderin what will be the effect of this to our already fragile economy ..

The point I was trying to make is the following:. When mixing the effects for movies, the really low frequencies may not be properly mixed, their level may be extremely high with respect to signals of higher frequecnies, the Sound Engineers may not bother since they know they will not be, in all likelihood reproduced by most speakers and/or subs... I was looking at tsome waterfalls from HTF and indeed the levels seem quite high... So you may have in the 30~20,000 Hz an average SPL of 95 dB and much , much higher SPL at frequencies lower than 20 Hz when you have a sub such as the Rotary subwoofer... Very seldom have we come across subs capable of going down to single digit Hz with such high SPL... So you end up with a lot of high SPL under 20 Hz...Our hearing may well taper off there , this does not reduce the risks.. We do not see X-Ray either...

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Old 08-28-2006, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucet
Lewis 68,

There is minimal interaction between the rotary subwoofer and any other speaker system. It is no different than the interaction between a conventional subwoofer and another speaker system.

Art - Besides our own content I will be playing short clips from some of these movies at Cedia. Many of these are on other list that Mark refers to, a few are not. I am choosing content that is 10Hz down and where there would be a noticeable difference between a system with strong output in the 15-20 Hz range and one including the rotary woofer. I look forward to meeting those who can visit us in Denver. brucet

Unforgotten
Hellboy
Exit wounds
Alone in the dark
Confidence
They
Black Hawk down
Hitchhikers guide
Dawn of the dead
Today you die
Die another day
Boogie man
Freddy vs jason
The hulk
Mulholland drive
Open range
Incredibles
From hell
V for vendetta
The village
Master and Commander
Mummy
Thanks !

I might also recommend :

War of the Worlds
Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
Titan AE

See you there !

Art

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Old 08-28-2006, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Bruce, I would also add Poseidon.

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Old 08-29-2006, 12:30 PM
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Bruce,
Where will you guys be and what is the name things will be under there ?

Art

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Old 08-29-2006, 12:34 PM
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Bruce,

Will you be renting two spaces again, one for the HT one for the baffle?
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Old 08-29-2006, 03:35 PM
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Art/Cineramax,

We will be exhibiting in one room at an outboard facility which is the Denver Athletic Club. The DAC is walking distance from the convention center where CEDIA is located. The outboard group includes some good companies like Audio Research, Vandersteen, Wilson, Magneplanar so it should be worth a visit.

The room we are in is on the second floor and called Colorado 2. We are going to divide the room about in half by building a wall, the temporary theater will be on one side and the rotary woofer on the other. I cannot say how well this will work because of the drop ceiling and the strength of the wall. I suspect there will be many rattles. We looked into renting a home but decided not to.

The website for the outboard group is www.theshowdenver.com. Thanks for the movie suggestions and questions.

Bruce T
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Old 08-29-2006, 04:48 PM
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Art/Cineramax,

We looked into renting a home but decided not to.

Bruce T
There has to have been one Denver AVS member that would have loved to have demoed this in their home. That might have been the best of both worlds.

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Old 09-04-2006, 10:25 AM
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