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post #721 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
Did you invite him over for a demo?:)


It is funny you should say that. In the thread on the sub forum, this is getting little attention. To me at least, this is one of the most interesting audio products to come out in the last five years.

Ericglo
Yea , I noticed how little interest there was when I posted my thoughts and pictures after CEDIA. :confused:

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post #722 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius
With the TRWs; the acoustic energy delivered to room doesn't come from the amps. It comes from the MOTOR that is driving the TRW.

The only work the amps have to do is move the blades of the fan. These amps are actually more in the role of a "driver" or "preamp".
Thanks for explaining Morbius!

It is indeed a very interesting and unusual technic based on an unique way of thinking.
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post #723 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
We'll reach 120-125dB SPL easily with this 250W amp. We could not even think to use all the power in a Crown power amp.
You can add it on your For Sale list:

"I guess you will sell your 1XS+2WDs subs when you hit 120-125 dB SPL @ 1-20Hz and your X-1s take over 20-20k Hz...?! "

Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
I am not sure how Bruce wired the motors, but there is one pair of speaker wire (I guess we should now call it interconnect?) from the power amp to the voice coils on the TRW. I think therefore that the speakers are in parallel with the output of the amp.
Yes, seems like splitting an interconnect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
Stay tuned for more tests and results. This much I think BAAS members can count on - one very unique movie night coming up!! This will be a room, that for some limited time anyway, maybe one of a kind in the world in terms of sub-bass performance.

I will be giving demo's to qualified customers, installers/designers, architects, sound engineers, studio types, etc.., that Bruce sends me. At CEDIA he had sound engineers from major studios and theme parks come back repeatedly for a demo, and he was four blocks from the convention center, so he's starting to stir up alot of industry interest.
Hey, even you might end up in the Hollywood arena! :D
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post #724 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
I will be giving demo's to qualified customers, installers/designers, architects, sound engineers, studio types, etc.., that Bruce sends me. At CEDIA he had sound engineers from major studios and theme parks come back repeatedly for a demo, and he was four blocks from the convention center, so he's starting to stir up alot of industry interest.
tzucc,

Good for Bruce!!!

I just hope you invite me when you demo the TRW for George Lucas and the denizens of
Skywalker ranch. :)

[Move over George Lucas; you'll shortly have the 2nd best home theater in the Bay Area.]

The THX crowd should be interested in this. Perhaps they will help set standards for
infra-sonic content in movie soundtracks.

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post #725 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 09:07 AM
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This is very exciting, I think we need a midwest demo site however. ;)

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post #726 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn
This is very exciting, I think we need a midwest demo site however. ;)
Art,

Then either you or "thebland" should give Bruce Thigpen a call. :)

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post #727 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
Amazing that people can not open their minds to new concepts, imprisoned in a boring if comfortable existence by adhering to conventional thinking.
Ok tony... you are sounding a little like KBK... :)

Seriously though, we run into these things all the time. when you look at a problem from a different angle, you can come up with very cool solutions.


On another note, should the TRW act to loosen and move your fiberglass in the attic around a bit over time (as one might expect it would) the added benefit of a cloth/foam grill of some sort is that it will filter any of that crap from landing in the room.

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post #728 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman
On another note, should the TRW act to loosen and move your fiberglass in the attic around a bit over time (as one might expect it would) the added benefit of a cloth/foam grill of some sort is that it will filter any of that crap from landing in the room.
Yup, That's what I was saying but didn't get my point across too well.
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post #729 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 12:06 PM
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I've seen white nylon mesh (looked sorta like fishnet stockings but with about 1-2" holes) used to keep insulation batts in place, you simply staple it to the studs. Keeps them in place much better than the old steel wires and looks much neater. Not sure where to find it though.
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post #730 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman
Ok tony... you are sounding a little like KBK... :)



On another note, should the TRW act to loosen and move your fiberglass in the attic around a bit over time (as one might expect it would) the added benefit of a cloth/foam grill of some sort is that it will filter any of that crap from landing in the room.

Move it ? I would be surprised if it didn't have it foating all over the place after seeing the ceiling tiles ,walls, and projector moving around in the Big Sho demo.

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post #731 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I really don't think a given air particle really travels that much net distance. This not at all like wind blowing, unless we're at DC :) Above DC, the air molecules are moving back and forth, to and fro, but not alot of distance, so I wouldn't expect dust to be moved around the fan. I am much more worried about dust in the air from the construction phase being circ'd by the HVAC. That is far more likely a problem.

I'll ask Bruce about that.

I've fallen behind on the blog for a bit... will post pics tonight. All the rooms have been cleaned up, all plastic is down except for the speakers and DCS stuff which is still covered.

Bruce will start tuning this afternoon... we might also handcraft our own grill for now.

It's coming together! I can't say how relieved I am to see all the drywall bits, wires, steel chunks, caulk, nails, screws, tools, ALL CLEANED up... I just couldn't stand to see my precious room such a state of disarray.

But Bruce and Winston did an outstanding job of protecting everything...the vacuuming of the media room was over in 15 minutes... there was very little drywall powder and chunks that fell behind or under the protective coverings. Kudos to them for taking care of the place like it was theirs.

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post #732 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 03:33 PM
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you are not going to have fibers blowing out on a regular basis tony, but there will be forces exerted on the fiberglass. and as such, you will get some "shuffling" so over time, i would expect a little net gain in "dust" A shield over the grill will kill any.

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post #733 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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we are looking at the XS foam grill as a potential material... we're going to stick it in the manifold opening... if it moves at all, it's not good for this application. The grill material must not vibrate or move whatsoever. Otherwise it's absorbing critical energy.

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post #734 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 05:02 PM
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Grills and their materials are often taken for granted, but tend to be far from trivial. While many grill materials have little acoustic impact on conventional speakers at low frequencies, they can move a lot and there can be problems with the fabric bouncing or slapping off of its frame without careful assembly (Super 77 is your friend :) ). I suspect that few fabrics will not move back and forth a good deal. The most likely solution will be a black, wire/metal grill, where you will want to insure that the area behind it is entirely black. I suspect you might be able to use a loosely suspended piece of fabric behind the main grill to keep everything blacked out. At some point you just take a look at how much the grill is affecting the response and decide if the loss is anything to worth worrying about.

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post #735 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton
I suspect you might be able to use a loosely suspended piece of fabric behind the main grill to keep everything blacked out.
Mark,

I think the black metal mesh grill would be a good idea.

The other alternative is to put a layer of black grill cloth or felt so that it covers the white
fiberglass insulation. If the entire "exhaust plenum" of the TRWs is black; then one can have
nothing but air between the TRWs and the black metal surface grill.

Does anybody make black fiberglass? :)

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post #736 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius
Does anybody make black fiberglass? :)
'tis but a can 'o spraypaint away... ;)

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post #737 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 07:12 PM
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All I know is running sweeps during the testing of my SVS subs my can lights looked like the exhaust plume from the SRBs on the space shuttle with so much dust pouring out. :D

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post #738 of 837 Old 09-28-2006, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
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you won't get anywhere fast with spraypaint on fiberglass... you'll use up cases and cases trying to make it black enough to matter. Plus, according to Bruce, you mess with its acoustic properties, which makes sense... making each strand heavier with paint will certainly change it's reaction to air movement.

I have thought of a black wire metal grill, but the problem is the white fiberglass, and they don't make black fiberglass. We'll probably go with the foam approach... I am calling Wilson tomorrow to see if I can get a sheet of the stuff and test it. Once up, you can't see too well behind, especially at an angle.

tomorrow I will be posting graphs of performance... number are starting to come in.

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post #739 of 837 Old 09-29-2006, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
you won't get anywhere fast with spraypaint on fiberglass... you'll use up cases and cases trying to make it black enough to matter. Plus, according to Bruce, you mess with its acoustic properties, which makes sense... making each strand heavier with paint will certainly change it's reaction to air movement.
tzucc,

Yes - the weight of the paint on the fiberglass was one of my concerns too.

However, it does appear that there is a black fiberglass "fabric"

http://www.fibreglast.com/showproduc...glass-132.html

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post #740 of 837 Old 09-29-2006, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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we are not using fiberglass cloth, but fiberglass insulation material, as in what you would use to insulate the home, see the pics.
The link you sent me appears to be a fiberglass fabric, like that you would use to make fiberglass structures with, e.g. a boat or whatever.

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post #741 of 837 Old 09-29-2006, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
we are not using fiberglass cloth, but fiberglass insulation material, as in what you would use to insulate the home, see the pics.
The link you sent me appears to be a fiberglass fabric, like that you would use to make fiberglass structures with, e.g. a boat or whatever.
tzucc,

Yes - you are using the same fiberglass that one uses for insulation.

However, I was wondering if something like "black fiberglass" actually existed; so I
did a web search; and that "fabric" is what I found.

So "black fiberglass" exists; just not in a form applicable to what you want it for.

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post #742 of 837 Old 09-29-2006, 10:11 AM
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My half-joking spraypaint comment was only in the context of making the outer facing part of the fiberglass look black, as most of the absorbsion happens in the deeper section of the manifold.

On a more constructive note, you might consider looking at some Linnacoustic or TheaterShield material that is about 1" thick that could be laid over the outer, visible portion of the visible fiberglass through the grill. I also would still consider a very loose cloth a few inches behind the grill that could move freely but would provide a visually black backdrop for the grill. I would probably look to a powdercoated or painted black, wire-like grill or similar. You should also take a look at how the lighting illuminates the opening to see what really is and isn't a concern so far as seeing behind it.

I'll see if I can "feel" your experimenting this weekend when I'm up in the Sacramento area. ;)

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post #743 of 837 Old 09-29-2006, 02:48 PM
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Why not use some acoustically transparent cloth (like GOM, etc.)? Just staple it to the joists / struts (this is all going to be covered by a grill anyway, right)?
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post #744 of 837 Old 09-29-2006, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I am trying to define the entire concept of what will cover the opening. At these low frequencies, it's hard to find a truly transparent covering. I think I want the grill to be the foam layer, nicely framed by the same mahogany elsewhere in the room.
The advantage of the foam is that the foam will sort of filter the air that is moving back and forth.

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post #745 of 837 Old 09-29-2006, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_R
Why not use some acoustically transparent cloth (like GOM, etc.)? Just staple it to the joists / struts (this is all going to be covered by a grill anyway, right)?
Greg_R,

What is called "acoustically transparent cloth (like GOM)" is acoustically transparent at
normal audio frequencies.

At infra-sonic frequencies; they may not be acoustically transparent AT ALL!!

Bruce Thigpen's maxim that tzucc relayed to us is quite correct; "If it moves, it's not transparent"

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post #746 of 837 Old 09-29-2006, 10:56 PM - Thread Starter
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check the blog for new post on my first impressions, but the bottom line is this: you know my room is solid, well treated and protected by the heaviest doors possible.... but simply put, we learned there is no way my room can tolerate the max output of the TRW's... Bruce's transducers will break apart the room with a single 200W amplifier. I am simply going to have to reduce the power for demo's and movies from the max headroom of 125-130dB SPL to an average of 115dB and peaks of 120dB.

I simply was stunned to see my Watch surrounds visibly move back and forth, the walls flopping like rubber sheets. The 300lb IAC door leaf slapping against the metal frame... even while the two magnetic seals try to hold it closed.

My garage doors up above (the back vent) were slapping against the rails... amazing.

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post #747 of 837 Old 09-30-2006, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
...125-130dB SPL to an average of 115dB and peaks of 120dB.

I simply was stunned to see my Watch surrounds visibly move back and forth, the walls flopping like rubber sheets. The 300lb IAC door leaf slapping against the metal frame... even while the two magnetic seals try to hold it closed.

My garage doors up above (the back vent) were slapping against the rails... amazing.
Wow! You need an atomic war shelter for these 2 TRWs. :)

Maybe you could use a metal open structure grill or rack as are being used in terraces to walk over, painted black, 1/2" thick and 1"x1" openings. So, standing on the floor you can not see through when they are placed at ceiling hight and the TRWs can move the air free...?

--Rene
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post #748 of 837 Old 09-30-2006, 02:50 AM - Thread Starter
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well I thought I had a reasonable facsimile of a bomb shelter to work with in my basement, but apparently, that's just not enough. Considerations need to be made of the framing, etc...

if and when I ever do a demo of this for BAAS members, you will simply not believe that 200W pushing air back and forth can do what these TRW's can do.

For sure, the TRW's are the worlds most powerful subwoofer in the below 20Hz range - far more powerful than 99% of media rooms can take. That being said, you can just dial them back and still enjoy bass output like you've never seen or felt before... later this afternoon we'll start enjoying some movie content on the screen.

That is... after I replace my X1 tweeter.

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post #749 of 837 Old 09-30-2006, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I put up a new post on the blog with some sketches of the install plans, fwiw.

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post #750 of 837 Old 09-30-2006, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
w
if and when I ever do a demo of this for BAAS members, you will simply not believe that 200W pushing air back and forth can do what these TRW's can do.
tzucc,

Congratualations! It sounds like you are going to be happy with the TRWs!! :)

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