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post #91 of 837 Old 03-15-2006, 03:59 PM
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Hi Bruce,

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucet
The SPL goal for the demo is 110dB 0Hz to 20Hz in tzuccs room. This is a self imposed limit and is defined by the torque of the motor. The pressure limit for the woofer is somewhere above 130dB in a room, which depends on a number of factors which I will be glad to explain.
Fun, although I would suggest bumping that limit to at least 120dB. I recall Tom Danley reminding me that the extrapolated audibility of 3Hz is somewhere around 130dB. For reference, playing Titan A.E. with a 110dB limit might easily overdrive it. Having played in a few rooms where coupling and/or EQ have allowed extension to 8-10Hz, my gut-feeling/experience is that about 100dB is the minimum capability worth playing with, and about 110dB is where you get really useful. 120dB plus allows us to be much more creative and is already possible with large quantities of conventional subwoofers. Having visited tzucc's theater once, I would be surprised if there were any structural concerns with this sort of level. Personally, I would love to have the headroom of near 130dB with a generally rising response of say 3dB/octave below 20-30Hz. Of course I've also been told I'm nuts for such talk. :cool:

Quote:
The woofers we designed for this event are good from 0Hz to about 15-20Hz. The intent was to use the watchdogs to their low frequency limit and then be able to switch the rotary woofer on and off and demonstrate if there is any value in having content reproduced well below 20Hz.
I believe the ability to compare this capability with a device that won't otherwise affect the >30Hz performance is of great value. I still suspect a targeted and optimized 2-way subwoofer implementation to be the preferred method for delivering this sort of performance in a moderate to large room, although the most benefit would be had from properly optimized designs for both the upper and lower subwoofer sections (i.e. not common subwoofer offerings).

Quote:
If someone knows of a good crossover solution please let us know.
My preferred units at the moment are the SymNet (10Hz low limit) and Lake (12Hz low limit I think) processors, both having somewhat noisy fans. My pick for a non-fan, 2ch option is the inexpensive DSP-30 or DSP-4 from QSC (20Hz low limit). The low limits I note are the lowest frequency setting that is possible for the Fc of a filter. So long as you can measure and confirm the final transfer curve, there are a few easy means to get effective crossovers at lower frequencies. The catch is you have to watch for clipping along the signal path.

Quote:
I will try and provide more information about the woofer and answer questions in the next couple weeks. Mark, thanks very much for commenting on this thread. It will be a pleasure to meet everyone.
Hopefully I can justify($) and fit the trip in. It looks very likely right now, but nothing is confirmed yet. It should be interesting to say the least.

Best Regards,

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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post #92 of 837 Old 03-15-2006, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Mark, I sure hope you can make it, would be great to see you again, get your opinion on Bruce's technology and continue this discussion on where sub technology is going.

If you do come out, can you bring this Chicago boy some pizza!!!

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post #93 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rene-L
I had a (stereo) Krell KBX c/o fixed as lowpass c/o=35Hz @ 12db/octave for (two) W/A XS' to extend fullrange Grand Slamm's in their lowest Hz's for music playback. Such an external c/o works fine, however is not flexibel for testing.
Regards, Rene-L
Maybe this could make it easier: :rolleyes:

I used a physically split interconnect. You need enough voltage on the output, in my case Spectral DMC30SL, for HT via analog throughput.

One IC-side of the split IC went to main front amps with nothing in between, so FL+FR fullrange down unto 18Hz.

The other IC-side went to the KBX-c/o and from there to the sub-amps, see above. If you do the same (with the split IC) you only have to take care of the right dB/Hz-mix for the rotary woofer.

Equipment & content:

VTL Siegfried for example has this data specification:
Small Signal frequency response (< 0.2% THD @ 1W) 1 Hz – 75KHz - 3dB

For me, not being a scientist, it seems that equipment (assuming all equip have similar data) is not a problem.

If the rotary woofer is capable of doing its job and there is content available in movie soundtracks, and hopefully in audio as well, it must work.

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post #94 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Poindexter
Certainly such a infra-woofer would not have any use for a music system unless you are looking only for synth bass enhancement - no instruments get even close to that depth.
Mr. Poindexter,

It depends on your definition of "close". It is quite common for pipe organs to have 32 foot stops -
the lowest notes of which are about 17 Hz, and some large pipe organs have 64 foot stops - the
lowest notes of which are about 8 Hz.

For example, the organ at the First Congregational Church in Los Angeles which can be heard
with organist Michael Murray playing on:

"Bach: Toccata and Fugue..."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=glance&n=5174

"Bach in Los Angeles", Michael Murray - Telarc CD 80088

has 64 foot stops - the 64' Gravissima in the "Chancel Pedal" section as can be seen from the
stop list available at:

http://www.fccla.org/music.htm

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post #95 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc
If you do come out, can you bring this Chicago boy some pizza!!!
tzucc,

Some stuffed pizza from "Giordano's", or "Pizza Uno" / "Pizza Duo" would really make the day! :)

I was a frequent denizen of the Giordano's in Willowbrook and Oak Brook Terrace when I used
to work at Argonne in the early '80's.

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post #96 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Argonne National Labs... yep, been there for a visit. That organ in LA... sounds like a visit I'd like to make, as I have a penchant for massive pipe organ bass. Do you happen to have any website links to their concert schedule?

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post #97 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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never mind ... it was in your post.

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post #98 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius
Mr. Poindexter,

It depends on your definition of "close". It is quite common for pipe organs to have 32 foot stops -
the lowest notes of which are about 17 Hz, and some large pipe organs have 64 foot stops - the
lowest notes of which are about 8 Hz.

For example, the organ at the First Congregational Church in Los Angeles which can be heard
with organist Michael Murray playing on:

"Bach: Toccata and Fugue..."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=glance&n=5174

"Bach in Los Angeles", Michael Murray - Telarc CD 80088

has 64 foot stops - the 64' Gravissima in the "Chancel Pedal" section as can be seen from the
stop list available at:

http://www.fccla.org/music.htm
My bad, synth bass and pipe organs. Outside of that realm of instruments, what is really going to go that low and how much music is made with such instruments.

While film soundtracks will most certainly change to take advantage of lower bass capabilities, I do not see the vast majority of modern music suddenly adding a pipe organ or double contrabass to their band because we have better woofer technology. I just don't really see this as being something that is all that necessary for music and anybody who is out there enough to get one of these will almost certainly have great extension to 20Hz and even a little below with traditional woofer technologies.

And how many people own Pomp and Pipes and the rest of the pipe organ music? While I am sure it sells, I don't think they are breaking the Billboard 200. I would fathom a guess that many people who buy it are not doing so for a love of pipe organ music but more of a sample/demo disc.
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post #99 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 12:34 PM
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I wonder if I should start listening more to the public radio show Pipe Dreams ! :)

Art

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post #100 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 01:54 PM
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This is an example of how we will try to create a temporary installation for tzuccs theater. Sound will be coming from a doorway connecting outdoors through a small room and an acoustic lowpass filter into his theater. As pointed out earlier the room becomes woofer box. Inside It will not be as quiet as we would like and the integrity of the baffle (the door insert) will be a big limitation, but I believe the performance will be good enough for listeners to make a judgment about the potential of this type of woofer.
We should be able to determine hearing thresholds for extremely low frequencies and find out if there is any value in sub 20Hz sound reproduction.

bruce T
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post #101 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 02:01 PM
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I'm not sure if Giordano's or Gino's East, or even Lou Malnotti's ships nationwide- BUT if you still have that jones for some "Chicago food" , Portillo's now sends their cuisine nationwide.

I'm pretty sure you can get most of the menu of Portillo's and Barney's sent overnight- I've never tried- Oh, and they did just open one in Ca. (I can't remember the city).

-There's nothing better that a true Chicago Italian Beef!

--sorry for the minor derailment.

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post #102 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 02:27 PM
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That would be Buena Park, CA... not exactly next door for us :)

Giordano's ships nationwide, but no meat. Looks like Gino's East and Lou Malnati's will.

Just a little Googling service for ya...

Michael
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post #103 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis
I'm not sure if Giordano's or Gino's East, or even Lou Malnotti's ships nationwide- BUT if you still have that jones for some "Chicago food" , Portillo's now sends their cuisine nationwide.

I'm pretty sure you can get most of the menu of Portillo's and Barney's sent overnight- I've never tried- Oh, and they did just open one in Ca. (I can't remember the city).

-There's nothing better that a true Chicago Italian Beef!

--sorry for the minor derailment.

Dan
Well, if you are going to this much trouble, can we have hot dogs from Wiener Circle and can we have Charlie Trotter fly in to cook us dinner? He loves bass!
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post #104 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 03:42 PM
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i have found Zacharys in Oakland and berkely to be a good substitute for Giordanos.

http://zacharys.com/

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

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post #105 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffmac
Well, if you are going to this much trouble, can we have hot dogs from Wiener Circle and can we have Charlie Trotter fly in to cook us dinner? He loves bass!
Jeff,

OK - which variant of the heteronym "bass" do you mean?

The non-treble notes - or the fish? :)

[Why do I get the feeling that Jeff was probably "baiting" me to
make the response above?]

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post #106 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucet
This is an example of how we will try to create a temporary installation for tzuccs theater. Sound will be coming from a doorway connecting outdoors through a small room and an acoustic lowpass filter into his theater. As pointed out earlier the room becomes woofer box. Inside It will not be as quiet as we would like and the integrity of the baffle (the door insert) will be a big limitation, but I believe the performance will be good enough for listeners to make a judgment about the potential of this type of woofer.
We should be able to determine hearing thresholds for extremely low frequencies and find out if there is any value in sub 20Hz sound reproduction.

bruce T
What other subs will you be using for the fun ?

Art

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post #107 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 07:00 PM
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Well, tzucc has a Wilson XS and two Wilson Watch Dogs.

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post #108 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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MG, thanks for the googling... but I have taken frozen pizza's from Chicago and baked them here in CA... result: unimpressive.

Dizz, thx for the link, will try Zach's next time I am in the easy bay. I mean east bay.

Of course, the best deep dish pizza I have ever tasted was the Papa Del's pizza at UofI Cham/Urb circa 1980's... it actually got one a natural high that lasted for hours... makes one wonder what sort of oregano they used on those pies.

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post #109 of 837 Old 03-16-2006, 10:08 PM
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T, if you like deep dish, you'll have a hard time finding any in the Bay Area better than Zachary's. Two locations: Berkeley and Oakland. Hey, I wonder if they'll give me a free t-shirt now?

-------------------------------
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post #110 of 837 Old 03-17-2006, 03:17 AM
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I'l second Zachary's, they're just down the street from us and they're quite good.

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They are amazingly good. The best pizza consistantly in the Bay Area
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post #112 of 837 Old 03-17-2006, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn
They are amazingly good. The best pizza consistantly in the Bay Area
OB,

WOW - we got all the members of BAAS to agree on something - except that it's pizza. :)

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post #113 of 837 Old 03-17-2006, 06:06 AM
 
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I ate there ona Sunday afternoon last year. Waited over an hour to get in. Definitely worth the wait BUT if there is ever a way to describe "gluttony", this restaurant is the epitome of such.
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post #114 of 837 Old 03-17-2006, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Bruce, can you post closeups of the fan itself...

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post #115 of 837 Old 03-17-2006, 07:18 AM
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On a final note about Zacharys, you can order half baked, take it home and finish cooking it.

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius
Jeff,

OK - which variant of the heteronym "bass" do you mean?

The non-treble notes - or the fish? :)

[Why do I get the feeling that Jeff was probably "baiting" me to
make the response above?]
I knew you would be the one "getting" this and I was "baiting" you! :D
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post #117 of 837 Old 03-17-2006, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn
They are amazingly good. The best pizza consistantly in the Bay Area

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius
OB,

WOW - we got all the members of BAAS to agree on something - except that it's pizza. :)

As someone who has lived within short walking distance from Lombardi's for 17 years, it is hard for me to regard what you are referring to as "pizza," regardless of how good it may be. ;)
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post #118 of 837 Old 03-17-2006, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glade
As someone who has lived within short walking distance from Lombardi's for 17 years, it is hard for me to regard what you are referring to as "pizza," regardless of how good it may be.
Glade,

Lombardi's and their coal-fired pizza oven was featured on the "Follow That Pizza" edition of the
Food Network's "Follow That Food":

http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/show..._21860,00.html

They covered both the "classic Italian" pizza found at Lombardi's and the "Chicago-style" variant.

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post #119 of 837 Old 03-17-2006, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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look, I know New Yorkers think their pizza is all that, but my (admittedly limited) experience with NY Pizza is that it's very thin with no love handes. For deep dish pizza, the best is found at University of Illinios ... any Illini living in NY will vouch for that.

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post #120 of 837 Old 03-17-2006, 12:23 PM
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Conan's was the only Chicago pizza joint in town at UT. It was pretty good. But my GOSH, check this from their web site:
http://www.conanspizza.com/images/conansdiners1.jpg
I mean, who cares how good the pizza is, it's just good to know you can wear a cowboy hat while eating it. I have a feeling this picture was taken back when I was there, it's so old.

Tony, if you're in PA or S.F., you should try out Paxti's and give us a report. I thought it was good but I don't know how "authentic" a Chicago experience it provides :) It was apparently opened by a former Zachary's owner/cook/whatever/Idunno.

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