Anyone uses pro cinema speakers, subwoofers here ? the BIG stuff ? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 178 Old 05-18-2007, 07:20 AM
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..............I'll be using a K2 for sub duty. My understanding is that it's easier to drive subs in an IB set up rather than a ported or fully enclosed box......
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post #92 of 178 Old 05-18-2007, 04:58 PM
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The Ashly stuff is good. What model are you using....is it a 3.24cl? Are you using a PC with this or tuning it through the front panel?

4.24PS using the (laptop) PC control software.
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post #93 of 178 Old 05-24-2007, 01:20 AM
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Question about those jbl pro 3677s...the frequency response they list with the +/- 3 db runs from 45-12k....the -10 db rating is 40-20k.

I understand the 45-12k +/- 3db well enough, but is there a real drop off with 12k-20k frequency material? Or does this mean that sensitivity just drops off from large headroom 99 db to a lower number (probably like 89 or something)...Can this be compensated for via EQ by softening the 40-12k?

Anyone have any experience with the 3677s?

Two things are certain in life, death and expensive high-end projectors.
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post #94 of 178 Old 06-01-2007, 01:28 PM
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Kwikas,

Hows the processor hunt going? Have you looked at the BBE ds48(4in/8out)? As far as pricing goes it slots in between the Behringer unit and the low end DBX driverack units. I'm seriously back in the market for one of these type of processors.


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Originally Posted by Kwikas View Post

I'm considering the Behringer......a Sabine Navigator 3600.....or a Xilica DCP 3060........all of which have 3 in 6 out.

A person here is selling two new Altodrive 3.2 units that could be of interest. These are at a good price - well below the Sabine & the Xilica and just below the Behringer. I'd have to get both though and I'd prefer just the one box. I also don't know much about the Altodrive and I can't find too many user comments when I google it.......perhaps it wasn't that common.......or that good...

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post #95 of 178 Old 06-05-2007, 12:21 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by KenWH
Hows the processor hunt going? Have you looked at the BBE ds48(4in/8out)? As far as pricing goes it slots in between the Behringer unit and the low end DBX driverack units. I'm seriously back in the market for one of these type of processors.

Ken, I've just secured a BSS 9088 Soundweb processor......8 in 8 out. It's more than I need but I got it at a good price (as much as one can get a good price on BSS Soundwebs that is)......

I'm now starting to get into finalising the speaker purchases .......I've presently got two 3632 ScreenArray HF/MF tops so I'll be getting another top shipped out from the USA shortly. That will have sorted the front three HF/MF sections at least.

I'm debating about the bottom LF sections. Some cinema's run full 3632 ScreenArrays utilising the 3639 LF enclosures. These use 2 x M115H-8A's. Others run different LF sections like 4647A's utilising 1 x 2226H drivers. While others mix the 3632 tops with 5641 enclosures......thus.......

http://www.jblpro.com/pressroom/augu...oundwaves.html

Any recommendations here? It probably doesn't matter too much although a smaller LF cab like the 4647A would get the 3632 HF/MF horns down closer to the floor than a 3639.

I'm debating surrounds too..... either six 8330's or six 8340's. I was going to consider matching the surround drivers with the front drivers like you have done but my set up will almost be totally for movies so it's not as critical. Any comments on these models?

I'm leaning more towards the 8330's because of the coverage. They are less efficient than the 8340's but with EV Q66's powering them I doubt this is going to matter a whole lot.
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post #96 of 178 Old 06-05-2007, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikas View Post

Ken, I've just secured a BSS 9088 Soundweb processor......8 in 8 out. It's more than I need but I got it at a good price (as much as one can get a good price on BSS Soundwebs that is)......

I'm now starting to get into finalising the speaker purchases .......I've presently got two 3632 ScreenArray HF/MF tops so I'll be getting another top shipped out from the USA shortly. That will have sorted the front three HF/MF sections at least.

I'm debating about the bottom LF sections. Some cinema's run full 3632 ScreenArrays utilising the 3639 LF enclosures. These use 2 x M115H-8A's. Others run different LF sections like 4647A's utilising 1 x 2226H drivers. While others mix the 3632 tops with 5641 enclosures......thus.......

http://www.jblpro.com/pressroom/augu...oundwaves.html

Any recommendations here? It probably doesn't matter too much although a smaller LF cab like the 4647A would get the 3632 HF/MF horns down closer to the floor than a 3639.

I'm debating surrounds too..... either six 8330's or six 8340's. I was going to consider matching the surround drivers with the front drivers like you have done but my set up will almost be totally for movies so it's not as critical. Any comments on these models?

I'm leaning more towards the 8330's because of the coverage. They are less efficient than the 8340's but with EV Q66's powering them I doubt this is going to matter a whole lot.


Sounds like your well on your way to a knock-out system!!
I also looked at the bss units...very nice units indeed.

I found a bbe 4/8 unit on ebay last night at a good price so I pulled the trigger on it. If it sounds as good as the dcx I tried earlier(minus the problematic channel) I'll be more than happy. I just couldn't see spending more on a processor than I did on my speaker/sub setup(I bought all my speakers used from a theater supply company).

As to your LF cab dilemma(poor guy )...one obvious thing is the efficiency of the two designs. The dual woofer box at 4ohm will yield around 6db or more of sensitivity over the single woofer box. Either way the mf/hf sections will need some attenuation but the dual woofers would reduce the amount needed somewhat.

One last thing...when you get all this gear assembled we need pics!!!

Take care,
Ken
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post #97 of 178 Old 06-05-2007, 03:20 PM
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I've got two of the original MCA/Cerwin-Vega Earthquake subs. They've been in the garage for years, my new house couldn't accomodate them [4'x4'x22"].

I was running them in my last house, the output is unreal and relatively clean as long as a REAL steep slope is used. And they must have solid room corners to load into.

I built a 48dB/octave 25hz low-pass filter for them but never had a good listening room to test it.

Otherwise, I'm a long-time user of old-style EV horn stuff, still cherish the T-25 and T-350 combination.
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post #98 of 178 Old 06-06-2007, 05:56 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by KenWH
As to your LF cab dilemma(poor guy )...one obvious thing is the efficiency of the two designs. The dual woofer box at 4ohm will yield around 6db or more of sensitivity over the single woofer box. Either way the mf/hf sections will need some attenuation but the dual woofers would reduce the amount needed somewhat.

Yes...understand your point here.........in reality I think it's going to come down to what pricing I can get on either three 3639 cabs or three 4647A cabs . Attenuation issues aside, price is probably going to be the determining factor. There might be some audible difference between these two boxes but that would be extremely difficult for me to test....and probably not worth worrying about.

Quote:


One last thing...when you get all this gear assembled we need pics!!!

I was planning to build a dedicated HT room at our last place but we sold it just recently. We've just had twins arrive into the family and the previous house was too small........the project is still happening but it's going to take more time now unfortunately.

Quote:


Originally posted by Solfan
I've got two of the original MCA/Cerwin-Vega Earthquake subs. They've been in the garage for years, my new house couldn't accomodate them [4'x4'x22"]. I was running them in my last house, the output is unreal and relatively clean as long as a REAL steep slope is used. And they must have solid room corners to load into.

YIKES!! Yeah, you really need a dedicated room when you're running this kind of gear. For subs I'm looking closely at the JBL 2242's like Ken has or running an IB set up with 15's. The subs are kind of the last piece of the speaker jigsaw for me and I need to do a little more research into this. There seem to be a lot of paths you can take..............
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post #99 of 178 Old 06-06-2007, 07:33 AM
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Some of these PA style direct radiator subs can be coaxed into fantastic infra-bass house shakers by suspending them a few inches off the floor, aiming downward.
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post #100 of 178 Old 06-13-2007, 05:36 PM
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Well let me start by saying that I have been in this wonderful hobby for over 20 years. I am currently well into the process of installing my twin manifold under the floor IB sub system. It has 8 18" drivers driven at 5000 watts (2500 @ 4 ohms per manifold). I have been told that my IB system is going to overpower my current M&K MX5000 THX speaker system (has two MX-5000 subs... was 13K back in the day). In researching a replacement speaker system I have absolutely decided on a JBL pro cinema system (MANY, MANY thanks to KenWH for the help you have given me). I am planning on putting the LCR and 2 subs behind a 160" AT screen. The horns on the 4675C's make them a little too tall to fit behind the screen and the JBL sales rep I spoke to said for dispersion reasons concerning my room size I should use the 4670D's. My room is not as big a KenWH's.. I really hate that because those 4675's with that huge horn look so much sexier but that's the breaks. I plan on putting 3 4670D's up front along with 2 4642A's (in between the LCR's). I am planning on using 4 JBL 8340's for the surround speakers. I simply don't have the room for anything larger like KenWH is using. This arrangement along with my MONSTER IB sub system should give me a pretty good bass response ... I HOPE!!! I have decided to go with a few DBX Driverack 260's for the speaker management systems. This speaker arrangement will be powered by a selection of 12 QSC amps as described below. My room is only 13.5' by 21' and has a two tier seating arrangement. The equipment is held in a twin stack Middle Atlantic rack system that is neatly tucked away under the 2nd tier seating area at the bottom of the stairs. Overall the room should look awesome when we finish the HT remodeling. The thing that REALLY bugs me is the lack of space for larger surrounds... especially on the sides.

LCR's
3 x JBL 4670D's Bi-Amped with 6 QSC RMX 1450 amps bridged to 4 ohms to yield 1400 watts each (obviously 2 amps per speaker)

Front subs
2 x JBL 4642A Amped with 2 QSC RMX 2450 amps bridged to 4 ohms to yield 2400 watts for each sub

Surrounds
4 x JBL 8340A Amped with 2 QSC RMX 2450 amps stereo at 8 ohms to yield 500 watts per channel

IB sub system (manifolds are made to hold 6 drivers each... I have the 4 extra holes plugged at this time. It will however allow expandability for up to 12 18" drivers)
8 x FI CarAudio 18" Q18 drivers Amped with 2 QSC RMX 5050 amps bridged to 4 ohms to yield 5000 watts each (The Q18 drives are custom wired for IB sub system use and have an insane Xmax of 27mm) The 2 QSC RMX 5050 amps will be replacing EP2500 amps...

equipment list (the ones I'm NOT in the process of replacing ASAP)

projector JVC DLA-RS1 on 155" 16.9 screen (I LOVE THIS PJ!!!)
Onkyo TX-NR905 (on order... I'm waiting)
HD DVD Toshiba HD-AX2
Blu ray Sony PS3
Lumagen RadianceXD (on order... I'm waiting)

After room modifications are complete...
SMX 160" 2.35 AT screen with CIH masking system

Will need to join HTAA (Home Theater Addicts Anonymous) ASAP... ha, ha!!!
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post #101 of 178 Old 06-13-2007, 07:25 PM
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dirtyharriett,

Sounds like a sweet set up, I think you'll be very pleased....
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post #102 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 06:22 AM
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Hi Nicole,

I was happy to help. It's going to be a killer setup when your done!!!

The one other suggestion I can give to anyone running prosound amps with fans(especially if your running 12 ) is to mount them where you won't here the fans as they can get loud. It's no fun hearing fans drone during the quite passages in a movie.
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post #103 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWH View Post

Hi Nicole,

I was happy to help. It's going to be a killer setup when your done!!!

The one other suggestion I can give to anyone running prosound amps with fans(especially if your running 12 ) is to mount them where you won't here the fans as they can get loud. It's no fun hearing fans drone during the quite passages in a movie.

Ken, fortunately for me since my rack system is UNDERNEATH the second tier seating area there is a tremendous amount of sound isolation and so far you can't hear a peep. I have a large fan down there to help keep things cool (going to be installing a small A/C unit soon) and several items with noisy fans and so far... SILENCE. Even my projector is sound isolated by projecting throught the wall of one of the up stairs bedrooms. So far... so good with that issue. Thanks for the advice though. I have to admit that I am salavating at the thought of getting to hear your system. I'll have to bring a few IV bags of fluids just to make sure I don't dehydrate from all the drool... ha, ha!!!
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post #104 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 07:49 AM
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Genelec 3xx full 7.1 system with twin subs. First audio tests tomorrow, full install next week.

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post #105 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 11:09 AM
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Well today I went down the road to my local Pro equipment shop and shared the good news that I will be spending a horrid amount of money with them on QSC amps. I talked to the manager about QSC amps for a while and he said that in order to be competitive ALL amp manufacturers are generous with their amp specs these days. With this info in hand I decided to make a few changes on my equipment to buy list. I am replacing the QSC RMX 1450's with the 2450's and instead of 2450's on the subs I will go with the 5050's. After adding up the RMS rated wattage on my updated equipment list I was shocked to see that the wattage yield will be 30,200 watts. Man this thing is going to ROCK the house... I HOPE!!! I purchased my first DBX Driverack 260 on ebay last night and got a great deal on it! My custom manifolds should be ready to pick up on 6/19 and I purchased my first QSC RMX 2450 today. The ball is starting to pick up speed on this baby. I can hardly wait till the IB system is installed. I should be able to hear the first sound tests within a few weeks if all of the equipment gets here in time. I love this hobby!!!

Updated equipment list & specs

LCR's
3 x JBL 4670D's Bi-Amped with 6 QSC RMX 2450 amps bridged to 4 ohms to yield 2400 watts each (obviously 2 amps per speaker)

Front subs
2 x JBL 4642A Amped with 2 QSC RMX 5050 amps bridged to 4 ohms to yield 5000 watts for each sub

Surrounds
4 x JBL 8340A Amped with 2 QSC RMX 2450 amps stereo at 8 ohms to yield 500 watts per channel

IB sub system (manifolds are made to hold 6 drivers each... I have the 4 extra holes plugged at this time. It will however allow expandability for up to 12 18" drivers)
8 x FI CarAudio 18" Q18 drivers Amped with 2 QSC RMX 5050 amps bridged to 4 ohms to yield 5000 watts each (The Q18 drives are custom wired for IB sub system use and have an insane Xmax of 27mm) The 2 QSC RMX 5050 amps will be replacing EP2500 amps...

equipment list (the ones I'm NOT in the process of replacing ASAP)

projector JVC DLA-RS1 (I LOVE THIS PJ!!!)
Onkyo TX-NR905 (on order... I'm waiting)
HD DVD Toshiba HD-AX2
Blu ray Sony PS3
Lumagen RadianceXD (on order... I'm waiting)

After room modifications are complete...
SMX 160" AT screen with CIH masking system
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post #106 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 12:37 PM
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Hi Dirty,

That's certainly a system that will part your hair!

While I understand your urge for high power, especially for the front LCR, have you considered going with some better/bigger 2ch amps instead of pairs of bridged lesser amps? With this small a room and >100dB sensitivity from the horns, noise floor could be a serious issue. I suspect this would be easier to deal with using a non-bridged amplifier. The other noise source and issue you will have to deal with will be in the DriveRack 260. These are nice units, but designed for pro use with higher average input levels. You are obviously determined to have some awesome dynamic capability. I'm just posting to make sure you give these smaller details some due attention.

Finally, be sure to pick up some measurement equipment and at minimum get Room EQ Wizard going so you can tame that monster of a system into sounding its best!

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post #107 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 12:58 PM
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Unfortunately over rated specs are common even in the "better" brand amps like QSC. It can even vary within a brand...from model line to model line.

I run several different models of QSC's and they all have been good amps. I bought all but one used off of EBAY and they always seem to deliver a good sound. My favorite QSC model right now is the older EX line. I run a pair of EX1600's on my main l/r and they are cool(literally) as the fans don't activate till the amps actually get hot. With the high sensitivity(100db+) of the JBL's the EX's fans don't even come on during most movies. I wish all my amps were like this.

In addition to the two EX1600's I run a plx1602 on my center, a plx2402 on my 4642sub, a MX 2000a on my 4688 sub and two USA 900's on my surrounds. I have two dedicated 20amp circuits in my equipment closet and have yet to trip a breaker.

The RMX line is QSC's old school model line as they use large traditional transformers(as opposed to lightweight fancy switching ones first seen the power light series) so just be sure to have plenty of AC power going into the amp rack. You might want to talk with your electrician about arranging the power distribution in such a way minimize ground loop issues as much as possible before he does the rough in. A dedicated breaker box even wouldn't be out of the question on an audio project as large as yours also.

One more thing your going to want to get is a few power sequencer/conditioners to startup/shutdown all those amps. I run two 20amp Furman PS-PRO II's and they work very well for me.

Keep us updated on the progress.

-Ken
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post #108 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 01:15 PM
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Nicole,

Mark certainly knows his stuff. I didn't realize till after reading Marks post that your planning on running two amps on each for your front mains. With the high sensitivity of the JBL's you really don't need that much power.

I use seven amps for my entire system...I run one large amp on each of my front l/c/r mains. My QSC's(and most good pro-amps) are dual mono designs which allows me to run the lowpass out of my crossovers to channel one and the highs from the crossover to channel 2 with no crosstalk and no worry about keeping the ohm loads the same on both channels.

If you have x amount of dollars alotted for amps...I'd suggest considering what Mark said about getting fewer higher quality amps. Though the rmx line is good...it is QSC's entry level amp line.
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post #109 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWH View Post

Nicole,

Mark certainly knows his stuff. I didn't realize till after reading Marks post that your planning on running two amps on each for your front mains. With the high sensitivity of the JBL's you really don't need that much power.

I use seven amps for my entire system...I run one large amp on each of my front l/c/r mains. My QSC's(and most good pro-amps) are dual mono designs which allows me to run the lowpass out of my crossovers to channel one and the highs from the crossover to channel 2 with no crosstalk and no worry about keeping the ohm loads the same on both channels.

If you have x amount of dollars alotted for amps...I'd suggest considering what Mark said about getting fewer higher quality amps. Though the rmx line is good...it is QSC's entry level amp line.

Ken, I was told to Bi-amp the LCR's by Bill Matthews at Tri-State. The reason I wanted to go with the QSC RMX series is two fold. First they are the most common to find used or refurbished and secondly years ago when I tried to go to the digital amps for weight purposes in my PA system I didn't think they performed nearly as well as my old school QSC's. Times my have changed... it just seems I can get the most bang for my buck going the RMX route. I couldn't even find a place that sells QSC's new cinema amps. Finding them used or refurbished would probably be next to impossible. I'm sure I would end up spending almost 2-3 times as much as I will buying the used/refurbished RMX's (I have a GREAT local source that is giving me awesome prices). If anyboby knows for sure that the RMX's will sound like crap in this system for gods sake please speak now!!!
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post #110 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 02:39 PM
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Dirtyharriett, that system will be totally insane!! I'd love to get something like that hooked up someday, but I have to get a place waaaaaaay out in the country with no neighbors.

Lotsa more stuff:

When I was starting out with this many years ago, I was pissed at how the room lights would dim on loud passages.
Now I run the bass amps configured for 240VAC,
[Crown MT-2400 for the subs and a Crown K1 for midbass]. There are also three dedicated 120VAC circuits for the other stuff, including the pipsqueak midrange and highs amps.

Regarding those big old midrange horns, I never let them run free-standing without some kind of damping material surrounding the edges. Some of them can sound horrible with their natural resonance adding to the mix.

Don't forget yer blocking caps, especially when you're tuning/experimenting! A pretty good supplier has been Madisound.com.

Lastly, a cheap tone-generator is invaluable with these systems to find buzzes and rattles. Loose cabinets, walls and windows etc. can ruin the sound of an an otherwise clean system. Ebay was filled with $25>$100 models last time I checked.
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post #111 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

Ken, I was told to Bi-amp the LCR's by Bill Matthews at Tri-State. The reason I wanted to go with the QSC RMX series is two fold. First they are the most common to find used or refurbished and secondly years ago when I tried to go to the digital amps for weight purposes in my PA system I didn't think they performed nearly as well as my old school QSC's. Times my have changed... it just seems I can get the most bang for my buck going the RMX route. I couldn't even find a place that sells QSC's new cinema amps. Finding them used or refurbished would probably be next to impossible. I'm sure I would end up spending almost 2-3 times as much as I will buying the used/refurbished RMX's (I have a GREAT local source that is giving me awesome prices). If anyboby knows for sure that the RMX's will sound like crap in this system for gods sake please speak now!!!

I've never talked with Bill other than a friendly hi how are you when I stop in at the shop...I usually deal with Fred at Tri-State. They're all nice folks though.

Are you sure what Bill meant was two amps per speaker? Running a single amp with the lows on one channel and the highs on the other is considered bi-amping also. Not bridging would also get a bit cleaner sound out of the amp as distortion levels usually go a bit when you start bridging.

Here's a diagram from Crown/JBL showing a medium sized bi-amped cinema system.
Just keep in mind the mains they show are actually three-ways that use a passive x-over between the mids and the tweets.

Even if you wanted to do two amps per speaker, you can run a much smaller(cheaper) amp for the horns as you will already be attenuating the horns so much anyway to bring them inline with the bass section. The horns just don't need very many watts even during LOUD scenes at reference levels and beyond.

RMX's are nice amps don't get me wrong and lots and lots of people run them. If those are what you can get a good deal on then by all means run them. The biggest knock I hear on the RMX line is fan noise(you've got that covered).

I listed my amps in an above post and I have both newer switching and traditional non-switching QSC designs. I've found that the bass is indeed stronger and tighter with my traditional transformer equipped amps like my MX2000a. Not to offend anyone but they just seem to have more balls down low.

I do think that the modern QSC switching designs do slightly better on the horns though as they seem a bit cleaner sounding. It's probably not enough of an improvement to warrant paying a large premium in cost over the RMX's though.
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post #112 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

Ken, I was told to Bi-amp the LCR's by Bill Matthews at Tri-State. The reason I wanted to go with the QSC RMX series is two fold. First they are the most common to find used or refurbished and secondly years ago when I tried to go to the digital amps for weight purposes in my PA system I didn't think they performed nearly as well as my old school QSC's. Times my have changed... it just seems I can get the most bang for my buck going the RMX route. I couldn't even find a place that sells QSC's new cinema amps. Finding them used or refurbished would probably be next to impossible. I'm sure I would end up spending almost 2-3 times as much as I will buying the used/refurbished RMX's (I have a GREAT local source that is giving me awesome prices). If anyboby knows for sure that the RMX's will sound like crap in this system for gods sake please speak now!!!

Hi Nicole,

The issue is really a matter of gain structure, which we generally don't have to pay much attention to in consumer systems. In pro systems, it's a bigger issue. driving the DR 260 with a receiver and then into pro amps that drive ~100dB sensitivity speakers sets up some concerns about the noise floor through the system, especially in a small room.

There almost certainly will be some low level, background hiss, but if this is managable or objectionable to you is only something you can determine once you set things up. Adjusting the gains through the system will be the tricky part. Fortunatley with the speakers so efficient, you shouldn't have to boost the Onkyo's signal too much.

On the amplifiers, yes, you want to bi-amp, but you don't need to bridge an amp into each driver. You might want to inquire to QSC as to if the PLX2 or other amps might have a lower noise floor vs. the RMX amps or which RMX amps would be better. Off-the-cuff, I would probably suggest switching the 6 x 2450s to 3 x 4050HD's or 5050's. That's a huge amount of power for those speakers, where really a 2450 or 1850HD would be plenty. The issue with bridging is that you double the noise when you basically put the two channels in series. I'd probably save some money with 3 4050HD's up front and then use 2 more for the surrounds over the 2450s. I suspect at that point your still saving money over the current amps.

Finally, how are you planning to combine the two 4642A subs with the IB?

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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post #113 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 05:08 PM
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Hi Nicole,

The issue is really a matter of gain structure, which we generally don't have to pay much attention to in consumer systems. In pro systems, it's a bigger issue. driving the DR 260 with a receiver and then into pro amps that drive ~100dB sensitivity speakers sets up some concerns about the noise floor through the system, especially in a small room.

There almost certainly will be some low level, background hiss, but if this is managable or objectionable to you is only something you can determine once you set things up. Adjusting the gains through the system will be the tricky part. Fortunatley with the speakers so efficient, you shouldn't have to boost the Onkyo's signal too much.

On the amplifiers, yes, you want to bi-amp, but you don't need to bridge an amp into each driver. You might want to inquire to QSC as to if the PLX2 or other amps might have a lower noise floor vs. the RMX amps or which RMX amps would be better. Off-the-cuff, I would probably suggest switching the 6 x 2450s to 3 x 4050HD's or 5050's. That's a huge amount of power for those speakers, where really a 2450 or 1850HD would be plenty. The issue with bridging is that you double the noise when you basically put the two channels in series. I'd probably save some money with 3 4050HD's up front and then use 2 more for the surrounds over the 2450s. I suspect at that point your still saving money over the current amps.

Finally, how are you planning to combine the two 4642A subs with the IB?

I'll try to address the issues in order....

Hiss... if this is a problem... in the past when I had PA systems I was able to use a floor gate to completely eliminate any hiss what-so-ever. Will the same trick work for this set-up or will I need it... I don't know yet.

Ok.. I will switch to 3 RMX 5050's to drive the LCR's and bi-amp with the two channels contained in each amp. That will drop my watts from 2400 to 1800 but you say this is overkill anyway.

As far as the subs go the JBL specs say the peak power for the 4642A's is 4800 watts. I think I will stick with the RMX 5050's bridged to 5000 watts @ 4 ohms. I could certainly gate those without fear of much detail loss. Practically EVERYBODY I know who has large IB systems is driving them with a bridged amp. I think I will stick with the RMX 5050's bridges to 5000 watts @ 4 ohms for them as well. With both of these systems I can always change later BUT I want to atleast give them a try like this.

Well I guess this simplifies amp buying now... It looks like now I'm only buying RMX 5050's. I'm glad I didn't open the box on the 2450... I'm sure my guy at the pro shop with give me full trade towards a 5050...

Mark, as far as the subs between the LCR's. I have been told by the IB expert guys that the sound from an IB system sounds different than that of a sealed or ported sub system. I fear I have listened to sealed and ported subs for so long that I will miss some of that sound. That is my reasoning for using the two 4642A subs. As far as making all this stuff sound right. That is what I will be paying some sound guys who have forgotten more about this stuff than I will ever know to figure out. I have a real love/hate relationship with all this equipment. I LOVE watching movies... NOT setting it all up. I BEG and pay other people to do that for me.
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post #114 of 178 Old 06-14-2007, 05:38 PM
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I've never talked with Bill other than a friendly hi how are you when I stop in at the shop...I usually deal with Fred at Tri-State. They're all nice folks though.

Are you sure what Bill meant was two amps per speaker? Running a single amp with the lows on one channel and the highs on the other is considered bi-amping also. Not bridging would also get a bit cleaner sound out of the amp as distortion levels usually go a bit when you start bridging.

Here's a diagram from Crown/JBL showing a medium sized bi-amped cinema system.
Just keep in mind the mains they show are actually three-ways that use a passive x-over between the mids and the tweets.

Even if you wanted to do two amps per speaker, you can run a much smaller(cheaper) amp for the horns as you will already be attenuating the horns so much anyway to bring them inline with the bass section. The horns just don't need very many watts even during LOUD scenes at reference levels and beyond.

RMX's are nice amps don't get me wrong and lots and lots of people run them. If those are what you can get a good deal on then by all means run them. The biggest knock I hear on the RMX line is fan noise(you've got that covered).

I listed my amps in an above post and I have both newer switching and traditional non-switching QSC designs. I've found that the bass is indeed stronger and tighter with my traditional transformer equipped amps like my MX2000a. Not to offend anyone but they just seem to have more balls down low.

I do think that the modern QSC switching designs do slightly better on the horns though as they seem a bit cleaner sounding. It's probably not enough of an improvement to warrant paying a large premium in cost over the RMX's though.

Ken, THANKS for the diagram!!! Wish I had the original link so I could see a larger version. I'm going to ask a really dumb question. How did they power 3 sets of surrounds with one channel. I know it is all the same signal but did they use some kind of distribution box or something like that? Bill did say use two amps BUT we were at the time talking about some older much lower power surplus amps he had... not the much more powerful amps I have been suggesting.
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Quote:


Originally posted by KenWH
Here's a diagram from Crown/JBL showing a medium sized bi-amped cinema system.

Ken, that's very much the same system I'm proposing in my HT as you know........still debating on what subs to use (IB or 4642A or 4645C etc).....the room is in the design stage presently and I'm having to consider building codes because one wall will run right along the back boundary of our block and there are height restrictions.

Quote:


Even if you wanted to do two amps per speaker, you can run a much smaller(cheaper) amp for the horns as you will already be attenuating the horns so much anyway to bring them inline with the bass section. The horns just don't need very many watts even during LOUD scenes at reference levels and beyond.

Yes that's absolutely right. The EV Q66's that I'm going to run will be plenty for the LF section and way too much for the tops........so, some care is needed.

By the way, did you buy the BBE 4/8? Have you installed it?

Quote:


Originally posted by DH
Ken, THANKS for the diagram!!! Wish I had the original link so I could see a larger version.

DH, try here.....http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/139627.pdf
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post #116 of 178 Old 06-15-2007, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

Ken, THANKS for the diagram!!! Wish I had the original link so I could see a larger version. I'm going to ask a really dumb question. How did they power 3 sets of surrounds with one channel. I know it is all the same signal but did they use some kind of distribution box or something like that? Bill did say use two amps BUT we were at the time talking about some older much lower power surplus amps he had... not the much more powerful amps I have been suggesting.

Kwikas has the link above for the pdf. They run the surrounds using series/parallel connections...no switch box needed. Most proamps are VERY flexible as to what loads they can drive. For instance your 5050's can drive down to a 2ohm load in stereo and that's basically what load you would get driving 3 pairs of the 8ohm 8340's (wired parallel) in stereo.


edit:
Nicole...don't be so quick to trash the IB idea. Yes 8 of those 18's you selected are expensive but they will go much deeper than the 4642's. Every post I read about IB's rave about the sound quality and deep extension. "The Cult" has a good forum dedicated to IB fans and users. You will need to register to access/post there but those guys know IB's.
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi
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"By the way, did you buy the BBE 4/8? Have you installed it?"


I did...installed it a couple nights ago and so far I'm very happy with it. As far as sound quality and certainly build quality goes it's better than the Behringer digital unit I tried.

The only thing that kinda bugged me is that the user interface via the front panel is not as easy to use as the Behringer so I had to use my desktop computer(via serial port) to set it up. But that's not that big of a deal for a fixed install like mine...now that it's set i shouldn't need to mess with it again.
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post #118 of 178 Old 06-15-2007, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by KenWH View Post

Kwikas has the link above for the pdf. They run the surrounds using series/parallel connections...no switch box needed. Most proamps are VERY flexible as to what loads they can drive. For instance your 5050's can drive down to a 2ohm load in stereo and that's basically what load you would get driving 3 pairs of the 8ohm 8340's (wired parallel) in stereo.


edit:
Nicole...don't be so quick to trash the IB idea. Yes 8 of those 18's you selected are expensive but they will go much deeper than the 4642's. Every post I read about IB's rave about the sound quality and deep extension. "The Cult" has a good forum dedicated to IB fans and users. You will need to register to access/post there but those guys know IB's.
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi

Ken, what would you think of me doing 3 3632's instead of 3 4760D's for the LCR's. They sure look like they would be easier to mount in a wall baffle and they are 3 way instead of 2 way. What are your thoughts on this. Thanks... Nicole
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post #119 of 178 Old 06-15-2007, 08:44 AM
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Very impressive stuff guys. Must sound incredible.

I use Klipschorns, Klipsch La Scala and Heresy speakers in my HT and the dynamics and clarity are incredible as well, but my hat is off to you!

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post #120 of 178 Old 06-15-2007, 08:51 AM
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"By the way, did you buy the BBE 4/8? Have you installed it?"


I did...installed it a couple nights ago and so far I'm very happy with it. As far as sound quality and certainly build quality goes it's better than the Behringer digital unit I tried.

The only thing that kinda bugged me is that the user interface via the front panel is not as easy to use as the Behringer so I had to use my desktop computer(via serial port) to set it up. But that's not that big of a deal for a fixed install like mine...now that it's set i shouldn't need to mess with it again.

Ken, I'm sorry but here comes yet another dumb question... how do you squeeze a 7.1 system into a 4 channel input with 8 outputs like the BBE 4/8. It seems like nothing has 8 inputs. What do you do??? just buy two 4 input units? Let me phrase it this way... If you could have ANY speaker management system to control the system I am building and money was not a factor... what would you chose (of course money is always a factor but I just want to see if I can afford what the best piece of equipment for the job is). MANY thanks... Nicole
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