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post #61 of 82 Old 10-16-2006, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

That's why you write for the mags. HA!

So what's the next step spending more bucky bucks to display and correct decay anomalies, to determine need for bass traps, since I have good frequency response?

Well, you could use RoomEQWizard (freeware) with your laptop+soundcard to find out. All you need is a microphone or the RS SPL meter.

But, mebbe, you don't want to know.

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post #62 of 82 Old 10-16-2006, 09:02 PM
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"So what's the next step spending more bucky bucks to display and correct decay anomalies,"

Something that displays 3d measurements instead of just 2d. In other words something that displays frequenct response over time in the form of a waterfall display or something along those lines. ETF can do this for example.

You can have flat FR at some locations but still have excessive decay problems at that same location. This is why both Lexicon and Meridian's Room EQ set their filters based on decay times and not based on simple FR measurements.

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post #63 of 82 Old 10-16-2006, 09:02 PM
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It would be interesting to see a pic of the SMS-1 graphical display with subs and with subs plus mains before equalization and after equalization. I suspect the before shots will indicate several room nodes which should be flattened with bass traps and acoustical treatments. Most users would suggest acoustical treatments first followed by equalization for superior sound.

John
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post #64 of 82 Old 10-17-2006, 06:04 AM
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Perhaps some interesting reading:

http://www.realtraps.com/eq-traps.htm

You can always talk to Terry Montlick and hire his services to do an analysis of your room. It costs less than the sms-1, but you need to put in a refundable deposit to use his measuring gear. No big deal IMO.

I have not done this myself, but it is one of those things that I fully intend to do. I seem to keep putting it off...for like more than a year now.

Dave
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post #65 of 82 Old 10-17-2006, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

It would be interesting to see a pic of the SMS-1 graphical display with subs and with subs plus mains before equalization and after equalization. I suspect the before shots will indicate several room nodes which should be flattened with bass traps and acoustical treatments. Most users would suggest acoustical treatments first followed by equalization for superior sound.

OK. I won't argue that. I have from a frequency standpoint flattened the curve where I had some problems, between 50 to 100 Hz, by using the 80 Hz 24 dB Phase Perfect crossover. But I assume it would be better to put in a few bass traps to flatten a few humps in that area of frequency response rather than using the higher and steeper crossover that I'm using. But it sure sounds good as is!!!!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #66 of 82 Old 10-17-2006, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

It would be interesting to see a pic of the SMS-1 graphical display with subs and with subs plus mains before equalization and after equalization. I suspect the before shots will indicate several room nodes which should be flattened with bass traps and acoustical treatments. Most users would suggest acoustical treatments first followed by equalization for superior sound.

Out of curiousity, what high and low pass crossovers are you folks using with your main speakers and subwoofers? How has the crossover affected the
frequency response, etc. and musicality of your system?

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #67 of 82 Old 10-17-2006, 07:48 AM
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Steve,

"what high and low pass crossovers are you folks using with your main speakers and subwoofers?"

Between mains and L/R subs is 24dB/octave for both high and low pass.

I tri-amp my L/C/Rs. Woofer to mid is crossed with an elliptic filter of around 210dB/octave at 500hz for the first 30-35dB of attenuation then after the arc it is eigth order rolloff. Mid to tweeters are at 8kHz also elliptic but at around 90dB octave for the first 30-35dB of attenuation then after the arc it is also eigth order rolloff.

One of these days I'm going to increase the rolloff between mains and subs as well.

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post #68 of 82 Old 10-17-2006, 07:56 AM
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I'm sure it does sound excellent. If you want to ramp the quality up yet another notch, it would be worthwhile studying room acoustics and treatments in an effort to keep equalization to a minimum. It may also give you the flexability to get away with a lower crossover and fewer artifacts near the crossover point.

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post #69 of 82 Old 10-17-2006, 07:58 AM
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This is what the article I posted above speaks about.

Dave
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post #70 of 82 Old 11-01-2006, 06:58 PM
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The SMS-1 truly is a wonderful user-friendly product. I found that I get a different response at a lower volume level. This is something I'd never have realized had I not used the SMS-1. My solution will be to simply keep the level up!

Furthermore, I have been able to set my two subs up in stereo to be just about perfectly flat all the up to where I have them blend in with my mains [all of this is for 2-channel], and all using the subs' own on-board controls. I would have never figured this out without using the SMS-1's tone generator, microphone, and graphical display. Now, I don't even use the SMS-1's EQ functions! There's simply no need since I got it flat without it.

My point is that without the SMS-1, I'd never have gotten my dual sub set-up tuned this well. It is just an amazing tool, and well worth the investment.

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post #71 of 82 Old 11-01-2006, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave7 View Post

The SMS-1 truly is a wonderful user-friendly product. I found that I get a different response at a lower volume level. This is something I'd never have realized had I not used the SMS-1. My solution will be to simply keep the level up!

Furthermore, I have been able to set my two subs up in stereo to be just about perfectly flat all the up to where I have them blend in with my mains [all of this is for 2-channel], and all using the subs' own on-board controls. I would have never figured this out without using the SMS-1's tone generator, microphone, and graphical display. Now, I don't even use the SMS-1's EQ functions! There's simply no need since I got it flat without it.

My point is that without the SMS-1, I'd never have gotten my dual sub set-up tuned this well. It is just an amazing tool, and well worth the investment.

That's what I told you above in this very thread. HA!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #72 of 82 Old 11-02-2006, 06:50 AM
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Yes - I am genuinely surprised at my own results...pleasantly surprised. Although I am not EQ'ing the subs, I just can't imagine getting them sorted that easily without having the SMS-1.

BTW - I only worked from one location since I am the only one who gives a hoot in my household. I bet if I moved the mic around the response would change, and some EQ could help.

Dave
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post #73 of 82 Old 02-01-2007, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to the help of the SMS-1, I am currently using only two of my three Aerial subs and they are perfectly placed so that they are perfectly flat (based on subwoofer output, not in conjunction with main speakers, as my sources primarily are 5.1 with LFE channel). The rear of each sub is about 15" out from the front screen wall. And they are just to each side of my Aerial CC5 center speaker, with each sub front maybe 6" in front of the rear of the CC5. And each sub alone also measures flat, as well as together. And the second sub adds 3 dB volumewise, which is what is expected when they're flat.

Sure sounds good!!!@@@

Unless I can find the perfect flat location for a third sub, I'll sell it.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #74 of 82 Old 02-01-2007, 10:16 PM
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Steve,

Sell the SMS-1!

Go with the QSC DSP-30 and have Mark Seaton come by and set it up for you. I am also using 2 Aerial subs (in the front) and have to say what Mark did was nothing short of FANTASTIC.

Right now my Subs are FACING EACH OTHER and about 18" apart 4" off the back wall. By facing them together Mark was able to nearly double the output and the response is so flat and well integrated into the mains it is unbelievable to listen to. Benefits of the DSP-30 are significant over the SMS-1 in the types of things it can do to the signal, also Mark uses it to not only flatten the response of the subs, but to integrate them into the Mains as well. Never heard anything so good - NEVER.

If you are not familiar with Mark, check out his threads in the Sub-Woofer sub-forum.

Drop him a line.

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post #75 of 82 Old 02-01-2007, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS View Post

Steve,

Sell the SMS-1!

Go with the QSC DSP-30 and have Mark Seaton come by and set it up for you. I am also using 2 Aerial subs (in the front) and have to say what Mark did was nothing short of FANTASTIC.

Right now my Subs are FACING EACH OTHER and about 18" apart 4" off the back wall. By facing them together Mark was able to nearly double the output and the response is so flat and well integrated into the mains it is unbelievable to listen to. Benefits of the DSP-30 are significant over the SMS-1 in the types of things it can do to the signal, also Mark uses it to not only flatten the response of the subs, but to integrate them into the Mains as well. Never heard anything so good - NEVER.

If you are not familiar with Mark, check out his threads in the Sub-Woofer sub-forum.

Drop him a line.

NOT FAMILIAR WITH MARK SEATON? I knew Mark back when he was a college student. Mark has hung out with me at CES, but I haven' t made it in a few years.
He has a standing offer to visit when he comes to AZ some time. Someday!!!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #76 of 82 Old 02-01-2007, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
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To clarify, when I say my two Aerial subs that I'm currently using are now perfectly flat, whether alone or using both at once - I mean perfectly flat without using any EQ of the SMS-1, which was used only to verify frequency response as I have need to use its EQ features. HA!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #77 of 82 Old 02-02-2007, 08:54 AM
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Steve,

You are using measurements now? Is the sky falling???? Did I just see a pig fly by my window?????? (Ducking and covering......)

As far as 'perfectly' flat that sounds like a good starting point.... but.... trying measuring at greater resolution then 1/3 octave. 1/3 octave can hide a lot of what is going on. Also the key is to try and get response like that as you normally use the system. In other words with both the mains and subs playing. If you are getting peaks/dips when the mains are on with the subs you still have some work to do. (Hint: Use sharper crossover slopes...... )

I don't think the SMS will do it but if you ever get the chance try measuring in the time domain (3D) as well. You won't neccessarily see resonance problems in the frequency domain (2D), except at a few points in the room, but resonances cause audible problems just about everywhere in the room.

Good luck,

Shawn
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post #78 of 82 Old 02-02-2007, 12:35 PM
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Doesn't the SMS-1 have 1/6 octave spacing? That's one of its better attributes.

John
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post #79 of 82 Old 02-02-2007, 12:47 PM
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I haven't played with the SMS, just going by what I saw in the manual the labeling on the OSD corresponded to 1/3 octave. If it can do 1/6 octave this is better but to really see room effects you need even finer then that more like 1hz resolution. 1/6 octave from 20-40 is 3.3 hz per band, in the next octave it is 6.6 hz per band.

Shawn
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post #80 of 82 Old 02-02-2007, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman View Post

Doesn't the SMS-1 have 1/6 octave spacing? That's one of its better attributes.

Sure, for the filters but not for the display. Just look at the q adjustment range.

Kal Rubinson

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post #81 of 82 Old 02-02-2007, 04:09 PM
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Didn't see this thread til now...

"If you have a peak at say 45hz, the SMS-1 will completely miss it as it is only going to sweep at 40hz and then go to a50 hz and 60 hz, etc."

The display might miss it, but the sweep is audibly and obviously continuous.

"In my system the SMS-1 causes huge thumps with my buttkickers everytime there is a change in the bitstream eg from Stereo to DD to DTS etc."

Same here, as wall as a window rattling thump from my 18" subs. I called Velo, they didn't seem very interested, so I returned it.

"Go with the QSC DSP-30 and have Mark Seaton come by and set it up for you."

That might be tough to make happen now that Mark is up to his ears in 2 speaker companies.

Noah
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post #82 of 82 Old 02-03-2007, 06:02 PM
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I was all set to go with the purchase of an SMS-1 to EQ my subs under 80Hz. However, I am intrigued by the RoomEQWizard (REW) Software and using something like the Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD) to achieve the same goal.

I am fairly new to this game and I wonder about the learning curve - but I get the impression that while the SMS-1 is likely to achieve good results very quickly, the software/Feedback Destroyer method possibly has a higher ceiling (in terms of results) - although it will take longer to achieve them. I noticed that there seem to be a fair number of guides on how to make use of REW including its integration with various BFD models.

Can anyone pass comments about the various options - especially the REW/BFD option given that the SMS-1 seems to be much more of a widely understood animal? DO I have to be a rocket sciencist to achieve good results with the REW/BFD?

Kind regards,

Ash
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