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post #1 of 82 Old 09-25-2006, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone tried it? What do you think?

I'll tell you mine later when I get the chance.

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post #2 of 82 Old 09-25-2006, 10:10 PM
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They repackaged the EQ circuitry built into their DD subs into a standalone unit which will work with any sub. I have the DD-15 (I love it), and the EQ works very well, and has a fairly nice on-screen user interface. You can dial in low freq. response fairly well (flat) with it, and it has 6 presets for different source material types, changeable from the remote. Downside is that, with only one mic input, you can only adjust for one listening position in a room - doesn't use multiple mikes to average response over multiple positions - so if you adjust it "just right" and then move the mic, it can be way off where you move the mic to. Not optimal for multi-seat HTs.

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post #3 of 82 Old 09-26-2006, 04:51 AM
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I think they are coming up with a 5 mic option. Haven't checked on it so maybe that option is out already

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post #4 of 82 Old 09-26-2006, 06:27 AM
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I love it - it truly made a huge difference in my system.
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post #5 of 82 Old 09-26-2006, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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"Audiophiles" traditionally do not like inserting EQ into their systems, at least when it involves extra DA conversions, because the benefits of the EQ may be
hurt more by the loss of sonics in the DA conversions. Or at least it may be better to use room treatments and design to flatten frequency response, but that doesn't work as well in the low bass. In fact, I designed my room from the ground up to have an outstanding sound, #3 on the Louden scale for recommended rooms (not #1 because that wasn't long enough for home theater). And from my sweet spot my room is flat easily within 3 dB above 100 Hz, thanks to design, furnishings and Michael Green acoustic control products. The question is whether a highly resolving system will hear this extra DA conversion steps at the low bass frequencies only, when the SMS-1 is used only for the subwoofers and not for the main speakers? What do you think?

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
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post #6 of 82 Old 09-26-2006, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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What about crossover and slope?

I can set my main speakers to whatever crossover and slope I like via my Theta CB3 surround processor for redbook CD, Dolby Digital and DTS sources, so I set the SMS-1 low pass to off.

Note that my Aerial SW12 subs are placed direct to the inside of my main speakers. Traditionally, with full range Aerials, I have set the main speakers low pass using Phase Perfect and at 40 Hz 6 dB slope, because in listening to redbook CD there is no question that the music and bass seems to have more vibrancy, naturalness and reality doing this. When you go up to 80 Hz there is clearly something magical that's lost and it still sounds good, but doesn't get you thumpin'.

Using the SMS-1 with the CB3 high pass set at 80 Hz 6 dB the SMS-1 monitor frequency slope is a good amount evener 100 Hz and below, than using 40 Hz 6 dB as the high pass. So wouldn't you think that objectively it makes sense to use the 80 Hz 6 dB high pass, that it should sound better? What do you folks think?

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post #7 of 82 Old 09-26-2006, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dollarman View Post

I think they are coming up with a 5 mic option. Haven't checked on it so maybe that option is out already

It is out and mainly aimed at the installer market because of cost-per Velodyne.
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post #8 of 82 Old 09-26-2006, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

"Audiophiles" traditionally do not like inserting EQ into their systems, at least when it involves extra DA conversions, because the benefits of the EQ may be
hurt more by the loss of sonics in the DA conversions. Or at least it may be better to use room treatments and design to flatten frequency response, but that doesn't work as well in the low bass.

I think that as D/A tech keeps on improving it is worthwhile to challenge the traditional (obsolete?) assumption that inserting D/A into the audio chain has an audible effect on sound quality from time to time.

Also I think that room EQ and acoustic treatment are complementary - one works in the frequency domain and the other in the time domain.

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post #9 of 82 Old 09-30-2006, 08:07 AM
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Steve,

I just got a SMS-1, but haven't hooked it up yet. I too am using two subs just to the inside of my mains because of installation constraints. How did you go about setting it up for two subs? Are you considering a second SMS-1 to run them in stereo?

Velodyne does now offer the multiple mic set-up that averages 5 or 6 mic positions, but as mentioned above, it is expensive considering you'd only use it once or twice if you change your room or sub location. Maybe they'll offer a rental?

Dave
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post #10 of 82 Old 09-30-2006, 08:48 AM
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I love mine. In my old HT, which had extensive Michael Green room treatments, I spent an incredible amount of time playing around to get a good flat bass response. With the SMS-1 in my new, acoustically challenged, room I was able to dial my sub in with 1.5 hours. Amazing time saver and my bass has never sounded better. The Genelec 7035a upgrade didn't hurt either.
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post #11 of 82 Old 09-30-2006, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

"Audiophiles" traditionally do not like inserting EQ into their systems, at least when it involves extra DA conversions, because the benefits of the EQ may be
hurt more by the loss of sonics in the DA conversions. Or at least it may be better to use room treatments and design to flatten frequency response, but that doesn't work as well in the low bass. In fact, I designed my room from the ground up to have an outstanding sound, #3 on the Louden scale for recommended rooms (not #1 because that wasn't long enough for home theater). And from my sweet spot my room is flat easily within 3 dB above 100 Hz, thanks to design, furnishings and Michael Green acoustic control products. The question is whether a highly resolving system will hear this extra DA conversion steps at the low bass frequencies only, when the SMS-1 is used only for the subwoofers and not for the main speakers? What do you think?

My experience with good EQ on subwoofers is that the benefits far outweigh the negatives. Additional noise and distortion at these frequencies is far below audible levels in quality systems and Velodyne is certainly in that category. The results from these units is perfectly reasonable, but I prefer a manual parametric system like the DSP1124P.
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post #12 of 82 Old 09-30-2006, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave7 View Post

Steve,

I just got a SMS-1, but haven't hooked it up yet. I too am using two subs just to the inside of my mains because of installation constraints. How did you go about setting it up for two subs? Are you considering a second SMS-1 to run them in stereo?

I'm doing it the easy way. I set each Aerial sub's rear volume to the one-quarter mark. I placed the SMS-1 prior to the front left Aerial sub - before all three subs as the other two subs are chained from the front left one.

Then I simply use the SMS-1 as though only one sub is connected.

If I want to see the frequency response difference between using one vs two vs three subs, all I need do is turn off the sub(s) that I don't want to measure.

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post #13 of 82 Old 09-30-2006, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

My experience with good EQ on subwoofers is that the benefits far outweigh the negatives. Additional noise and distortion at these frequencies is far below audible levels in quality systems and Velodyne is certainly in that category. The results from these units is perfectly reasonable, but I prefer a manual parametric system like the DSP1124P.


The DSP1124P like the SMS-1 uses DA conversion to perform the EQ digitally.
The SMS-1 has both auto and manual modes. So I don't understand what you think makes the DSP1124P better other than its much lower price?

Here's specs on the DSP1124P:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...l_Channel.html

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post #14 of 82 Old 09-30-2006, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

The DSP1124P like the SMS-1 uses DA conversion to perform the EQ digitally.
The SMS-1 has both auto and manual modes. So I don't understand what you think makes the DSP1124P better other than its much lower price?

Here's specs on the DSP1124P:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...l_Channel.html

The whole auto EQ process the SMS-1 is using is flawed to some extent because it only measures the subwoofer and not the subwoofer as part of the whole system. I see no reason to pay for all of the features of the SMS-1 when I only want the parametric EQ portion.

The SMS-1 is an 8 band mono parametric equalizer. The SMS-1 does not list any audio performance specifications. It is also not uncommon for video circuitry like that found in the SMS-1 to add noise to audio. At the price point of the SMS-1 is not likely to provide a high quality microphone or preamplifier. The measurement tools provided with SMS-1 is also lacking at this price.

The DSP1124P is a 12 band per channel stereo parametric equalizer that can be used easily with my dual subwoofer setup. The DSP1124P provides the normal audio performance specifications. At least a portion of higher quality measurement tools or a professional can be purchased with the money left over between these two products.
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post #15 of 82 Old 09-30-2006, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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The DSP1124P sells for $99. It must be the very, very, very, very, etc. BEST audio bargain in the whole world to have such unexcelled high end audio quality for that meager price.
I am overwhelmed!

The SMS-1 so far seems to work nicely for me and I find that provided I use my Theta CB3
crossover at 40 z 6 dB to my main Aerial speakers, my system sounds somewhat better using it, despite the extra DA conversion steps. I tried the 80 Hz 6 dB crossover and
it didn't sound as good although it measured well on the SMS-1's on screen display.

For you needs, the Behringer seems to work well and you're happy with it, so fine.

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post #16 of 82 Old 09-30-2006, 10:21 AM
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That might be so Jeff but for people who want a all in one solution to better bottom end and don't have to have a engineering degree to oprate it the SMS-1 does a fantastic job.

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post #17 of 82 Old 09-30-2006, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

The DSP1124P sells for $99. It must be the very, very, very, very, etc. BEST audio bargain in the whole world to have such unexcelled high end audio quality for that meager price.
I am overwhelmed!

The SMS-1 so far seems to work nicely for me and I find that provided I use my Theta CB3
crossover at 40 z 6 dB to my main Aerial speakers, my system sounds somewhat better using it, despite the extra DA conversion steps. I tried the 80 Hz 6 dB crossover and
it didn't sound as good although it measured well on the SMS-1's on screen display.

For you needs, the Behringer seems to work well and you're happy with it, so fine.

I never said the SMS-1 was a bad product. It will benefit most people to use one.

You are kidding yourself though if you think the cost of the SMS-1 is mostly dedicated to quality audio. Any audio product that does not provide performance specifications should be regarded with suspicion. A quality reference microphone costs as much as the SMS-1. The one included wiht the SMS-1 is a cheap $50 microphone. You should also note the SMS-1 uses 20 bit A/D while the DSP1124P is a 24 bit solution.
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post #18 of 82 Old 09-30-2006, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

You are kidding yourself though if you think the cost of the SMS-1 is mostly dedicated to quality audio. Any audio product that does not provide performance specifications should be regarded with suspicion. A quality reference microphone costs as much as the SMS-1. The one included wiht the SMS-1 is a cheap $50 microphone. You should also note the SMS-1 uses 20 bit A/D while the DSP1124P is a 24 bit solution.

Jeff

Have you tried the SMS-1?

What microphopone do you use and what does it cost? Or is there a microphone supplied with the $99 DSP1124P?

I ain't sayin' that the SMS-1 or the DSP1124P are the best ways to do this? But the SMS-1 us east for me as a layperson to do - and it seems to work nicely even in my high resolution room and system.

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post #19 of 82 Old 09-30-2006, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Jeff

Have you tried the SMS-1?

What microphopone do you use and what does it cost? Or is there a microphone supplied with the $99 DSP1124P?

I ain't sayin' that the SMS-1 or the DSP1124P are the best ways to do this? But the SMS-1 us east for me as a layperson to do - and it seems to work nicely even in my high resolution room and system.

I certainly have used the SMS-1 and it is a reasonable product. Most automatic EQ systems I have worked with do more harm than good, but this is not one of them.

I use an Earthworks M30. It cost me about $600.
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post #20 of 82 Old 10-01-2006, 06:10 AM
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The Velodyne SMS-1 is a good product. I have used it. I prefer to use just a parametric EQ the Rane PE17 being a favorite. The Velodyne sweeps at 1/3 octave. If you go to realtraps webpage you can burn a 1/12 octave sweep CD. If you have a peak at say 45hz, the SMS-1 will completely miss it as it is only going to sweep at 40hz and then go to 50 hz and 60 hz, etc. Lot of frequency between those for a big peak or dip to hide. Also if you use a room mode calculator you will discover that some the modes most likely present in your room will fit between the graph of a 1/3 octave sweep. I think the calculator shows that my room should have a peak at 33 hz. Impossible, I believe, to touch that with a 1/3 octave EQ. Steve, if I could give you just a single piece of advice that I think would be the best improvement you could make? Bass traps. Buy some of those Real Traps Mondo traps and stick them in your front corners. I would stack two veridically in each corner. Bass traps will reduce "ringing." The room will continue "to play" the bass note after it should have stopped. Bass traps will allow your notes to start and stop, "on a dime." This take a little of the fun out of hometheater where a little boom my be welcomed. With music though, it improves the performance. Steve with all the cash you have into high end cables,granted they are excellent ones, you really owe it to yourself to spend just a little more on some bass traps for those corners. Because of your speaker placement, 7 feet from the back wall and careful seating placement to avoid many nulls and peaks, your room sounded great without eq and bass traps. Still I firmly believe that ANY room will improve with both bass traps and parametric EQ for the sub frequencies which basically is what the Velodyne SMS-1 is.

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post #21 of 82 Old 10-01-2006, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

The Velodyne SMS-1 is a good product. I have used it. I prefer to use just a parametric EQ the Rane PE17 being a favorite. The Velodyne sweeps at 1/3 octave. If you go to realtraps webpage you can burn a 1/12 octave sweep CD. If you have a peak at say 45hz, the SMS-1 will completely miss it as it is only going to sweep at 40hz and then go to 50 hz and 60 hz, etc. Lot of frequency between those for a big peak or dip to hide. Also if you use a room mode calculator you will discover that some the modes most likely present in your room will fit between the graph of a 1/3 octave sweep. I think the calculator shows that my room should have a peak at 33 hz. Impossible, I believe, to touch that with a 1/3 octave EQ. Steve, if I could give you just a single piece of advice that I think would be the best improvement you could make? Bass traps. Buy some of those Real Traps Mondo traps and stick them in your front corners. I would stack two veridically in each corner. Bass traps will reduce "ringing." The room will continue "to play" the bass note after it should have stopped. Bass traps will allow your notes to start and stop, "on a dime." This take a little of the fun out of hometheater where a little boom my be welcomed. With music though, it improves the performance. Steve with all the cash you have into high end cables,granted they are excellent ones, you really owe it to yourself to spend just a little more on some bass traps for those corners. Because of your speaker placement, 7 feet from the back wall and careful seating placement to avoid many nulls and peaks, your room sounded great without eq and bass traps. Still I firmly believe that ANY room will improve with both bass traps and parametric EQ for the sub frequencies which basically is what the Velodyne SMS-1 is.

Bulldogger gives good advise which ain't no bull!!!@@@ No matter how good it sounds there may always be ways to get closer to sonic nirvana. Will do as get the chance.

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post #22 of 82 Old 10-01-2006, 08:55 AM
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Bulldogger makes a great point that is often said but still lost because we are so into the "gear". The room is the most important piece of the puzzle, but it is often too intangible, time-consuming, and for many, just no fun to try to get right [not to mention the often undesirable WAF associated with acoustic devices].

Ethan Winer [is that right?] at Real Traps is a wealth of knowledge and openly shares it with us in various audio forums...as obsessive as we are. For that alone, he deserves our patronage. Another is Terry Montlick, who I have been intending to hire for more than a year now [I just can't get my s**t together!], and of course there is Rives and others.

Personally, after hearing some really good rooms around the country, I get the feeling that if you get the room right, the need for an EQ is less dire. Nevertheless, the SMS-1, although limited in scope, gives many of us a great easy starting point because it is one stop, quick and easy shopping [yes, at a price]. If we want, it does allow us to tinker manually with individually configurable frequencies, Q and level, albeit a limited number of those, to let us experiment and learn more about what we want from an EQ and its effects.

Additionally, SMS-1 users have a good support network in various forums and with Velodyne direct. For most people, that is enough to make the entry fee worth while. In the end, if you really understand it all and are good at it, and yet still need more [like Bulldogger and umr], then perhaps getting a quality Parametric EQ like the Rane should be considered.

At least, this is the way I am approaching this.

Dave
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post #23 of 82 Old 10-04-2006, 05:33 PM
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No doubt Dave7. The SMS-1 is a break-through product. The device is a stellar performer at the price point. It definitely will improve your system. Room equalization and treatment can be difficult for the novice. This device makes it as simple as connecting it and pushing a button. I agree. You start with room treatments instead of just a totally brute force approach with EQ. Those very low frequencies in the subwoofer range are too powerful to be corrected with a small amount of bass trapping. For these frequencies, I think EQ gets you a long way.

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post #24 of 82 Old 10-04-2006, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

The whole auto EQ process the SMS-1 is using is flawed to some extent because it only measures the subwoofer and not the subwoofer as part of the whole system. I see no reason to pay for all of the features of the SMS-1 when I only want the parametric EQ portion.

Not so, The test signal output is sent to a main channel input (or multiple main channel inputs) so that the sound measured is that output from the main channel(s) and the sub. The display shows measured levels up to 200Hz. Thus, you can adjust/EQ the sub in the context of the whole system.

Quote:


The SMS-1 is an 8 band mono parametric equalizer. The SMS-1 does not list any audio performance specifications. It is also not uncommon for video circuitry like that found in the SMS-1 to add noise to audio. At the price point of the SMS-1 is not likely to provide a high quality microphone or preamplifier. The measurement tools provided with SMS-1 is also lacking at this price.

Eh, mebbe. Lack of info doesn't necessarily mean they are hiding something. In practice, the unit is, imho, sufficiently transparent in the sub channel.

Kal Rubinson

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Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #25 of 82 Old 10-04-2006, 07:10 PM
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regarding the mic, Bruce Thigpen built a custom broadband mic measuring down to DC out of some radio shack parts... measured well on the FFT software, with little correction. Total bill of materials was about $5.00. So I believe Velo could deliver a decent but low cost mic for the purpose of sampling calibration.

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post #26 of 82 Old 10-04-2006, 10:50 PM
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I agree that EQ is almost a necessity for subwoofers, particularly if you don't have a purpose built room. My living room has good acoustics for a "normal" room, and I have Auralex foam bass traps (Leopards, IIRC -- the triangular ones that go in the corners) on the front wall. I bought a Revel B15 a few months before the Velodyne DD series came out -- the Revel LFO test CD & software (to setup the 3 band parametric EQ) are pretty good. Revel points out that 1/3 octave bands aren't fine enough resolution to really dial in a subwoofer, as has been explained above.

+/- 10dB swings (not uncommon if you measure a normal room) are much worse errors than whatever your EQ technology of choice is introducing....

Drew Dean
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post #27 of 82 Old 10-05-2006, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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As I discussed above, initially I setup the SMS-1 using a main speaker high pass crossover of 80 Hz 6 dB (set in my Theta CB3 menu) . But especially when I played some multi-channel SACD, I noted that my bass seemed sort of to lose some of its life, that the music clearly moved me so much more before engaging the EQ.

Then I setup the SMS-1 using a main speaker crossover of 40 Hz 6 dB. NICE! Multi-channel SACD as engaging as ever - thought it was perhaps better than before, but really didn't do critical comparison yet, just enjoyed, using this setting for all of my music, tv and movie formats.

My audiophile Psychologist buddy Lon Grushko just came over. I showed him how easy the SMS-1 is to setup.
I decided, as we re setup everything, to run main speakers full range with no crossover.

Interesting. We set up the SMS-1 from the sweet spot front row center leather recliner spot, as before, but this time main speakers with no crossover, run full range. Then I took microphone over to other five recliners, and to the very back of the room behind the last row of recliners. WOW! The SMS-1 on screen graph showed very little difference
regardless of room position of the microphone. No wonder my bass has always sounded so similar throughout the room!!

Then I put on some multi-channel SACDs, specifically, Steely Dan Gaucho and a jazz sampler disc from Telarc
Heads Up label. Immediately Lon, who has spent a number of hours listening to my system especially these discs,
noted that we didn't even to take the SMS-1 out of my system to compare With vs. Without SMS-1 Eqing, because it was so clear that my system had never ever sounded this good (and it sounded darn good before).

Well, I decided to take out the SMS-1 Eqing but connecting the sub cable from the CB3's Six Shooter output direct to the front left Aerial sub (chained to the other two subs). WOW! Right away, music I used to love, I no longer wanted to listen to. After a minute, I quickly inserted the SMS-1 back in, and WOW music nirvana.

Here's what Lon had to say about comparing multi-channel SACD music EQed with the SMS-1 vs not using the EQ:

"With the EQ: Overall, more coherent, more of a seamless integration between subs and main speakers, end result being a cleaner, smoother performance, with obviously the improved bottom end improving the overall performance of the mids and highs as well. A substantial sonic improvement."

I was hoping for some improvement with the SMS-1 EQ - but this was a very substantial improvement towards being there live. Quite amazing.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #28 of 82 Old 10-05-2006, 04:35 PM
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Here is my take on the SMS-1. For the most part it will do the job. In some environments like mine, it will cause more problems than it will solve. History, I was using the Behringer Feedback destroyer aka DSP1124p but didn't like the fact that it didn't have a low level cut off since I am using ported subs. I moved to a Symetrix 551E parametric EQ which did have the low level cut off. Both of these PEQ's worked well in flattening out the bass. Then I put in the SMS-1 for the ease of use and low level cut off. In my system the SMS-1 causes huge thumps with my buttkickers everytime there is a change in the bitstream eg from Stereo to DD to DTS etc. I contacted Bryston (I have their SP 1.7 prepro), Guitammer / Buttkicker and Velodyne. The problem occurs only when the SMS-1 is put in. In terms of support Guitammer and especially Bryston have been excellent. I was very disappointed with the support from Velodyne and this was not a one time deal. but on a few occassions. So when I have time, I will put the Symetrix 551 back in and use the AutoEQ portion of the SMS-1 to assist in the recalibration of the Symetrix.

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post #29 of 82 Old 10-05-2006, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Eric. Guess I'm lucky as the SMS-1 causes no problems at all in my system. I've got five Bryston 7B mono amps as well - and as you say, when it comes to support, no one beats Bryston.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #30 of 82 Old 10-05-2006, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EC View Post

Here is my take on the SMS-1. For the most part it will do the job. In some environments like mine, it will cause more problems than it will solve. History, I was using the Behringer Feedback destroyer aka DSP1124p but didn't like the fact that it didn't have a low level cut off since I am using ported subs. I moved to a Symetrix 551E parametric EQ which did have the low level cut off. Both of these PEQ's worked well in flattening out the bass. Then I put in the SMS-1 for the ease of use and low level cut off. In my system the SMS-1 causes huge thumps with my buttkickers everytime there is a change in the bitstream eg from Stereo to DD to DTS etc. I contacted Bryston (I have their SP 1.7 prepro), Guitammer / Buttkicker and Velodyne. The problem occurs only when the SMS-1 is put in. In terms of support Guitammer and especially Bryston have been excellent. I was very disappointed with the support from Velodyne and this was not a one time deal. but on a few occassions. So when I have time, I will put the Symetrix 551 back in and use the AutoEQ portion of the SMS-1 to assist in the recalibration of the Symetrix.

I had no problems with my Paradigm Servo15+Bryston SP2+SMS-1 at any time. The problem may be with the buttkickers. Were they fed via the SMS-1? If so, why do they need EQ? I know my butt ain't that sensitive.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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