Does Theta Digital's Failure to Have HDMI Impact Whether You Want to Buy??? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 620 Old 10-08-2006, 01:09 PM
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They need to move quickly. I am waiting to see what happens with the other processors out there. HDMI 1.1 is fine for now, as the upgrade to 1.3 will be MUCH more costly. If the price of the upgrade to HDMI 1.1 is $500 or less, then count me in, as I know it is a one-year stop-gap until 1.3, 1.4 or 1.5 becomes the standard.

For the moment, though I love my Theta, I am looking out the corner of my eye at the competition.

BTW: Theta also DESPERATELY needs an EQ solution as well!!!

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post #92 of 620 Old 10-08-2006, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS View Post

BTW: Theta also DESPERATELY needs an EQ solution as well!!!

I sure agree on that. My Velodyne SMS-1 really improves what I thought sounded great substantially better for sure on SACD and DVD-Audio multi-channel - and that's only EQing the sub output.

Theta should do digital EQ at least at the low end, say up to 360 Hz, like Rives Audio does with their Parc (2 channel) and Parc+ (4 channel add on for multi-channel 5.1 system) analog units. I imaging these days this wouldn't be all that difficult or too costly, at least to incorporate in the inboard digital processing. Maybe Theta could give you the option of using the DA conversion for the subwoofer output (within the CB) with the Six Shooter as seems benefits of EQ at bass outweight easily the DA conversion deteriments.

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post #93 of 620 Old 10-08-2006, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

In another thread Steve mentioned Theta has a problem with the CB and HDMI because they never thought of a combined Audio/Video signal being a possibility.

I remember reading that, too, but I don't remember when he said it. A few months ago, I went into more detail on some of the issues Theta and other card cage architecture prepros might face with HDMI if anyone wants to wade through the very long post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8025972

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post #94 of 620 Old 10-08-2006, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

I think the MC-12HD does this now. For example the connection beyond my HD is DVI. It supports 0 audio channels. But I get 6 channels of audio no problem, the MC-12HD is changing/altering the EDID to make this happen.

Interesting. Perhaps it defaults to something sensible if it gets 0 channels, but if someone is telling it 2 channels, it believes it. 2 channels seems more sensible than 0 channels all things considered.

Good idea on the DVI cable. I either have to convince Philip to let me tear up his system again, or get an MC-12HD myself. At this point, I'm not sure which one is easier.

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post #95 of 620 Old 10-08-2006, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

I never said a time frame. I simply said LPCM over HDMI is quicker/cheaper/easier for Theta to do via HDMI v1.1 vs. HDMI v1.3.

It is, no matter what Theta's internal architecture is like.

Assuming internal processing is capable of operating at at least 96kHz. 192 would be better in theory to handle the within spec case of 192K content from Blu-ray. Personally I doubt we will ever actually see 192K content on a Blu-ray disc.

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post #96 of 620 Old 10-08-2006, 06:10 PM
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Steve,

"So Theta should do HDMI with multi-channel LPCM 96-24 as quick as possible at reasonable cost. "

I certainly think so. Getting HDMI v1.1 to the level of what the MC-12HD could do would be a large jump for Theta owners. Even more so then MC-12 owners because MC-12 owners can still apply all processing to the multi-channel analog outputs of a HD-DVD player for L7, room EQ, bass management and so on. The MC-12HD just adds the ability to bypass the analog stages in the player and the A/D in the Lexicon to keep the signal all digital. The CBIII can't process the multi-channel analog outputs at all so gaining HDMI v1.1 would be a very large improvement for Theta owners.

"When Theta designed the Casablanca, Dolby Digital and DTS were in the pipeline.
No one had heard of 96-24 or Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD, etc. Theta provided a product that has been upgradeable and lasted me now almost ten years. Pretty unheard of in the industry."

I understand, but you are again backing up what Andre said. Card cage designs are not the end all be all for upgradeability. If it was designed making certain assumptions (for example seperated audio and video signals) the card cage design becomes a hinderance to moving further.

"imaging these days this wouldn't be all that difficult or too costly, at least to incorporate in the inboard digital processing."

The EQ itself as long as the unit has the available DSP cycles is relatively easy. The far more difficult part is automating the measurement and setup phase of the EQ.

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post #97 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

". As such I'm guessing their backplane is built as sort of an audio section and a video section. To support HDMI they kind of need both combined which it might not be able to do.

Shawn

That is exactly the problem as I understand it.

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post #98 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 07:32 AM
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I knew going in what Theta's track record on upgrades were. I bought it because it sounded better than the other processor I tried. I think analog pre-amps sound better with music than any pre-pro even with room correction and I have tried most of them. The Six Shooter served that need. I guess I am starting another fight because I voiced my personal preferences but so be it. Either you are a fool to buy a processor that does not have all of the latest feature or wise to buy what best serves your pesonal needs and what you think sounds best. Do I wish Theta could give me great sound and keep up with some of the other companies? Of course. Everything is a trade-off. I chose mine. I would advise anyone who really wants the fastest upgrades to chose another company.

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post #99 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

Assuming internal processing is capable of operating at at least 96kHz. 192 would be better in theory to handle the within spec case of 192K content from Blu-ray. Personally I doubt we will ever actually see 192K content on a Blu-ray disc.

I doubt we will see 192K either. It never took off with DVD-A.

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post #100 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

Assuming internal processing is capable of operating at at least 96kHz. 192 would be better in theory to handle the within spec case of 192K content from Blu-ray. Personally I doubt we will ever actually see 192K content on a Blu-ray disc.

Assuming Blu-Ray wins, why not concert videos?
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post #101 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 07:51 AM
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"That is exactly the problem as I understand it. "

If it is they actually *might* be able to get around that. Just build a HDMI card that fits into the audio side of the processor with HDMI inputs and a HDMI output all on the same card. Strip the audio off the HDMI link and get it into their processor and output the remaining video on the same card. They wouldn't be able to offer analog video transcoding to HDMI if they did it this way but they could do HDMI video switching and accepting HDMI audio on it.

That is assuming the 'audio' side of the processor is able to accept multi-channel digital audio from numerous card slots. Again, depending upon how they built their backplane it may or may not be able to do that.

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post #102 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 07:53 AM
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"I bought it because it sounded better than the other processor I tried."

I did the same thing.

"I think analog pre-amps sound better with music than any pre-pro even with room correction and I have tried most of them. "

For me the exact opposite occurs, but then I love music in surround. Two channel just sounds far to artifical to me as compared to what I hear in a real hall.

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post #103 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"I bought it because it sounded better than the other processor I tried."

I did the same thing.

"I think analog pre-amps sound better with music than any pre-pro even with room correction and I have tried most of them. "

For me the exact opposite occurs, but then I love music in surround. Two channel just sounds far to artifical to me as compared to what I hear in a real hall.

Shawn

Oh, I listen to music in 5.1 surround. I am not talking about 2 channel at all. The days of two channel are passing. 5.1 analog pre-amps are easy to find.

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post #104 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 08:02 AM
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"I listen to surround in 5.1. I am not talking about 2 channel at all."

I listen to all music in 7.2. (or .3 depending upon the source)

" The days of two channel are passing. 5.1 analog pre-amps are easy to find. "

Analog 5.1 pre-amps don't get it done for expanding my existing 2 channel material into great 7 channel surround though.

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post #105 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 08:10 AM
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I would disagree about the great 7 channel surround. You do not like Theta and did not buy their products. I do and did. Let's just leave it at that. Useless debating why we each like different approaches.

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post #106 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Please folks, lets no more this company vs that company. Whatever works for each of us is fine. The purpose of this thread is to get good info re HDMI hoping to encourage Theta to better assess what and how quickly to implement HDMI. Theta does read web forums. Thanks.

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post #107 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpigeon2003 View Post

Assuming Blu-Ray wins, why not concert videos?

This is a wonderful choice of a horrible example. The environment is so noisy that you are overkill @ 24/96K. 24/96K is more than enough.

24/192K for a concert video is necessary for specsmanship, that's it.

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post #108 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 10:43 AM
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If anyone uses 192/24, I'll bet it will be an audiophile record label releasing audio-only content, essentially using BD as a hi-res audio carrier. It will be interesting to see when players can support this and how well it's tested.

BTW, I've been told that at least one of the major Hollywood production facilities is fully 192/24-capable stem-to-stern.

--Andre
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post #109 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

If anyone uses 192/24, I'll bet it will be an audiophile record label releasing audio-only content, essentially using BD as a hi-res audio carrier.

Is there any gear that can produce the voltage swings necessary to reproduce the full dynamic range of a 24-bit signal? Or is is all specmanship at this point?

Sanjay

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post #110 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 03:50 PM
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Sanjay:

On the playback end, the Burr-Brown PCM 1792s spec out at around 22-bits (132dB SNR). I'm not sure if anything can capture at that precision though. We're talking about < 1/1,000,000th of a volt.

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post #111 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 04:02 PM
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John,

In your experience, are there any analogue components (or analogue sections of pre-pros) capable of 132dB of dynamic range?

Sanjay

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post #112 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 04:56 PM
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Sanjay,

More importantly.... do you know many pairs of ears that could support 132dB of dynamic range? Particularly when you consider the noise floor in most rooms.... with a fairly quite room with a 40dB noise floor to fully utilize that 132dB of dynamic range means peaks of 172dB. One wouldn't get to listen to that sort of thing for long.

The vast majority of systems (which include the room) don't even have the resolution/SNR of what CD is capable of.

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post #113 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Sanjay,

More importantly.... do you know many pairs of ears that could support 132dB of dynamic range? Particularly when you consider the noise floor in most rooms.... with a fairly quite room with a 40dB noise floor to fully utilize that 132dB of dynamic range means peaks of 172dB. One wouldn't get to listen to that sort of thing for long.

The vast majority of systems (which include the room) don't even have the resolution/SNR of what CD is capable of.

Shawn

Shawn:

You need to redefine your criteria of "quiet room". 40dB is not a fairly quiet room. It's not much better than a typical room. If you want a quiet room, you want a noise floor NC30 or less.

I agree with you about dynamic range, but it isn't about dynamic range, it's about processing headroom.

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post #114 of 620 Old 10-09-2006, 09:44 PM
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John,

"You need to redefine your criteria of "quiet room". 40dB is not a fairly quiet room. It's not much better than a typical room. "

That was my point. Typical rooms are worse then 40dB so the headroom requirements would be even greater.

That is why very few systems/rooms can even support CDs dynamic range.

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post #115 of 620 Old 10-10-2006, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Is there any gear that can produce the voltage swings necessary to reproduce the full dynamic range of a 24-bit signal? Or is is all specmanship at this point?

I'm not sure what it is, but I'd guess that it's a product of convenience more than anything since adding 8 bits is a convenient increment for computers. I know of only one commercial audio-related device that has true 24-bit range, and that was a mic preamp which took heroic measures to actually get there.

BTW, a good, wide-range recording may have perhaps 40 dB of dynamic range.

--Andre
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post #116 of 620 Old 10-10-2006, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

This is a wonderful choice of a horrible example. The environment is so noisy that you are overkill @ 24/96K. 24/96K is more than enough.

24/192K for a concert video is necessary for specsmanship, that's it.

Even the more quiet concerts such as gilmore, james taylor, etc?
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post #117 of 620 Old 10-10-2006, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpigeon2003 View Post

Even the more quiet concerts such as gilmore, james taylor, etc?

Is there an audience? If so, yes.

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post #118 of 620 Old 10-10-2006, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

I'm not sure what it is, but I'd guess that it's a product of convenience more than anything since adding 8 bits is a convenient increment for computers. I know of only one commercial audio-related device that has true 24-bit range, and that was a mic preamp which took heroic measures to actually get there.

BTW, a good, wide-range recording may have perhaps 40 dB of dynamic range.

--Andre

Andre:

Storage convenience and a few spare bits to ensure quality through the signal processing chain are the reasons I have been given from a number of people in both the recording industry and the consumer electronics industry.

If I had just been talking to folks in the CE industry I'd say it's a vested interest, but it's not just that side who have said this

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post #119 of 620 Old 10-10-2006, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"I listen to surround in 5.1. I am not talking about 2 channel at all."

I listen to all music in 7.2. (or .3 depending upon the source)

" The days of two channel are passing. 5.1 analog pre-amps are easy to find. "

Analog 5.1 pre-amps don't get it done for expanding my existing 2 channel material into great 7 channel surround though.

Shawn


Most artists still record 2 channel CDs. It isn't the cost or availablity of media that drives artistic work, but rather the cost of production.
Most music is bought by the under 30 crowd, who listen to MP3s and dial tones on their phones and Ipods.

What dynamic range and freq response do you need for Hip-Hop?

High res, multi channel are niche markets.
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post #120 of 620 Old 10-10-2006, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpigeon2003 View Post

Even the more quiet concerts such as gilmore, james taylor, etc?

Absolutely.

We haven't even discussed the usage of compressor/limiters that are commonplace in these types of concerts.

Add in equipment noise, audience noise etc and it isn't going to be a wide dynamic range recording.

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