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post #1 of 71 Old 12-06-2006, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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post #2 of 71 Old 12-06-2006, 03:37 PM
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Hi

I have seen and heard such a system... PhilinNYC provided me with the opportunity ... I heard the system for close to 4 hours... Quite sweet sounding, actually I have found that sweetness in many of the new digital amplifier I have auditioned: most sound somewhat closed on top. I think many designers have preferred to curtail the high frequencies so that not to expose the theoretical weakness of the breed: Inaccurate High frequency reproduction... .

The amount of control provided by this system is bewildering and has the potential to become the cause for a lot of mischiefs if the owner does not learn and discipline self....
Tzucc I have read about the Lake EQ I think the Boz/TacT system goes many steps further... far from just being an EQ...
I do believe however that in the present state of affair, conventional products provide a better experience, a better fac simile if you will of the absolute... Yet I know for a fact Digital Room Correction is the future...

Frantz
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post #3 of 71 Old 12-06-2006, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Hi

I have seen and heard such a system... PhilinNYC provided me with the opportunity ... I heard the system for close to 4 hours... Quite sweet sounding, actually I have found that sweetness in many of the new digital amplifier I have auditioned, they sound somewhat closed on top. I think the good designer have preferred to curtail the high frequencies so that not to expose the theoretical weakness of the breed: Inaccurate High frequency reproduction... . The amount of control provided by this system is bewildering and cause for a lot of mischiefsin one does not learn and discipline self....
Tzucc I have read about the Lake EQ I think this system goes many steps further... far from just being an EQ...
I do believe however that in the present state of affair, conventional products provide a better experience, a better fac simile if you will of the absolute... Yet I know for a fact Digital Room Correction is the future...

Apologies in advance if I'm misunderstanding you.

I think you may have not spent enough time with different TACT systems. Did you just hear the BOZ unit or the TACT correction preamps? How experienced is that user and what is the setup? Did he run you through multiple target curves? The results are all in the target curves you draw and proper setup.

I have had all sorts of high end gear and nothing brings as much transparency or makes as big of positive impact as advanced room correction combined with sensible room treatments. TACT systems are definitely not just EQs. They do frequency, time alignment, time domain and level correction using impulse response. They can also layer fletcher-munson curves. The TACT systems have been out there since 1996 and have gone through several hardware and software upgrades. There are also several other advanced systems out there, some of them purely PC based.

The versatility of these setups is also amazing. In my 2.2. setup I can use cornerload woofers, set external crossovers and take separate impulse response of each speaker and woofer. In my 5.1 setup, I set external digital crossovers to bi-amp each of the amps and can route/mix signals however I want. The visual tools make everything straightforward (ok, maybe not straightforward) and easily verifiable.

Anyway, I have owned many pieces of traditional high end gear and TACT room correction gear. Unless you have a perfect room, nothing will get you closer to transparency than a properly corrected setup. One listen to my 5.1 setup, even with the panel in the middle, makes that abdundantly clear.

The future is definitely here. I wouldn't let one sitting with one system make you think otherwise.



Uncorrected to almost corrected (although it needs more target work) in my 2.2. Notice I had to further attenuate the treble.


TCS MKII... critical tool (uncorrected):

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post #4 of 71 Old 12-07-2006, 05:41 AM
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Hi

I actually came with an extremely positive impression of the system. I do however maintain that many of the new "digital" amplifiers" do not sound as open and extended as the best conventional ones. I will continue to follow the technology , TacT in particular (Boz?) as this is the way of the future... I have also edited my post so that it does not come across as a negative assessment

Frantz
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post #5 of 71 Old 12-07-2006, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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TCS MKII... critical tool (uncorrected):

[/quote]


WELL where is the Corrected graph?
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post #6 of 71 Old 12-07-2006, 04:46 PM
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So is this system capable of acting as an active crossover as well as performing room correction? (i.e. can the 3 amp module inputs be shorted)
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post #7 of 71 Old 12-07-2006, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_R View Post

So is this system capable of acting as an active crossover as well as performing room correction? (i.e. can the 3 amp module inputs be shorted)

Greg,

Yes - if you look at the TacT windows closely, you will see the specifications for "CRO" and
"CRO-SUB". "CRO" is the high-pass crossover option for the mains, and the other is the
low-pass crossover for a sub.

It appears these have been set for a 10th order crossover at a frequency of 280 Hz.

The specs on the optional crossover package available on the "Boz" can be seen at:

http://www.tactlab.com/Products/BOZ/...erPacakge.html

Dr. Gregory Greenman
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post #8 of 71 Old 12-07-2006, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post


WELL where is the Corrected graph?

I changed the setup recently, so I have only taken the uncorrected measurements. After I design my curves, I'll remeasure that system.
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post #9 of 71 Old 12-07-2006, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_R View Post

So is this system capable of acting as an active crossover as well as performing room correction? (i.e. can the 3 amp module inputs be shorted)

The RCS 2.2XP and TCS MKII can both do correction (dynamic correction, in the case of the RCS) and crossovers on all 4 channels. The TCS MKII is fully programmable, and can do crossovers and correction on 3 subs.

The BOZ amps can do crossovers or correction. When used with a TCS MKII, you can do sub crossovers and correction through the TCS MKII and use the BOZ amps to further route signals and set crossovers for bi-amp setups like mine. BOZ amps accept discrete digital channels from the TCS MKII.
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post #10 of 71 Old 12-07-2006, 09:18 PM
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Hi

A little confused about the TacT/Boz... I read news about the company having broken up in 2005.. What is the situation ? Seems they are back to be one big happy family. Can someone enlighten us?

Frantz
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post #11 of 71 Old 12-07-2006, 10:06 PM
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Does the preamp offer HDMI inputs? 1.1, 1.2, 1.3?

Does it support the new lossless advanced audio codecs? Or at least multi-channel LPCM?

Robert
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post #12 of 71 Old 12-07-2006, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robena View Post

Does the preamp offer HDMI inputs? 1.1, 1.2, 1.3?

Does it support the new lossless advanced audio codecs? Or at least multi-channel LPCM?

The TCS MKIII will this year. The TCS MKII uses its own multichannel system.
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post #13 of 71 Old 12-08-2006, 12:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Mattias:
Peter Lingdorf took off and started his own digital amplifier company Lindorf audio. The reviews are not so hot.

Boz the head engineer retained the ip, kept the name Tact and now started the BOZ line.

Sleek said: "The RCS 2.2XP and TCS MKII can both do correction (dynamic correction, in the case of the RCS) and crossovers on all 4 channels. The TCS MKII is fully programmable, and can do crossovers and correction on 3 subs."

The TCS Mark 3 can do Dynamic Room Correction and cross talk cancellation which expands the soundstage, it will be HDMI 1.3 compliant and expand it's functionality to 12 channels, I only hope they retain the old firewire in for sacd/dvd-a or change to denon link.
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post #14 of 71 Old 12-08-2006, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Hi

A little confused about the TacT/Boz... I read news about the company having broken up in 2005.. What is the situation ? Seems they are back to be one big happy family. Can someone enlighten us?

Frantz,

Still two pieces. When you go to the TacT website:

http://www.tactaudio.com/

you get a choice of Boz's US company still called TacT:

http://www.tactlabs.com/

or Lyngdorf's European company:

http://www.lyngdorf.com/ContentId/334/Default.aspx

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #15 of 71 Old 12-08-2006, 02:23 PM
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Quote:


if you look at the TacT windows closely, you will see the specifications for "CRO" and
"CRO-SUB". "CRO" is the high-pass crossover option for the mains, and the other is the
low-pass crossover for a sub.

I saw that (which is why I asked the question if it could implement the crossover as well as room correction). However, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to drive all the amps from the same 2ch source? (i.e. 3 amp modules for a 3-way speaker system) This system seems to be setup for SACD/DVD-A/HT where you'd have 6+ channels of signal routed into the amps which could then perform bass management and room tuning on the signal (vs a room correcting active crossover for a 2ch system).
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post #16 of 71 Old 12-08-2006, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_R View Post

I saw that (which is why I asked the question if it could implement the crossover as well as room correction). However, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to drive all the amps from the same 2ch source? (i.e. 3 amp modules for a 3-way speaker system)

Greg,

There are several ways of doing what you want to do - that is have 3 pairs of stereo channels
that are crossed over and room corrected.

For example, one method is to use either a TacT RCS 2.2x or Tact RCS 2.2XP and 3 TacT
stereo digital amplifiers. You can use the RCS to do the room correction and crossover
calculations and download those into the digital amps. The RCS is then used as a preamp,
and the TacT amplifier voltage supply rails are slaved to the RCS for volume control.

One Stereo Times reviewer, Don Shaulis uses a TacT 2.2x and 3 S2150 amps to tri-amp
his Apogee MiniGrand; which is 3-way - midrange/tweeter ribbon, woofer ribbon, and
dynamic subwoofer. Check the sidebar on Associated Equipment and his description of the
system under the heading "Performance" at:

http://www.stereotimes.com/cable011306.shtml

If you want to do the same with the Dynamic Room Correction; which corrects for the volume
level also via the Fletcher-Munson curves; one would need to substitute a 2.2XP for the 2.2X
and the newer S2150 XDM for the S2150.

The 2.2X and the 2.2XP can also be fitted with a couple of stereo DACs each to provide 2 stereo
pairs of line-level output . In that case, one could dispense with 2 of the 3 stereo digital amps,
and use the 2 stereo pair analog outputs of the RCS 2.2X or RCS 2.2XP to drive a couple
analog stereo amps to provide for 4 channels and the remaining stereo S2150 or S2150 XDM
which would be slaved to the RCS; would provide the other 2 channels for a total of 6 channels.

The older RCS 2.2X requires a computer during setup to compute the correction filters and
download those into the RCS 2.2X and S2150 amps. The newer products like the RCS 2.2XP
and the Boz 216/2200 have on board processing power, so they don't need a computer during
the setup phase. However, TacT has a nice GUI interface, screen shots of which are attached
to previous posts; that can be utilized optionally with the 2.2XP and Boz; and is required with
the 2.2X.

The Boz216/2200 system has even more flexiblity and expandability. You can download a
User's Manual for the Boz at:

http://www.tactlab.com/Resources/Dow...Z216-2200.html

Page 25 of the manual shows how you "daisy-chain" 3 stereo amplifier modules in order to
form a tri-amp system, like you want to do.

The TacT systems are very modular and can be mixed / matched in various ways.

The latest edition of "The Absolute Sound" has a review of the TacT RCS 2.2XP
by Anthony Cordesman

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #17 of 71 Old 12-08-2006, 04:11 PM
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A power DAC! Interesting technology application. A TV transmitter company, Acrodyne Industites, tried this too in the mid 1990s for high power AM video (in the NTSC RF system video is AM and the audio is FM). They never got the bit switching generated harmonics low enough to be commercially viable but here we are talking hundreds of MHZ and power levels of tens of kilowatts.

Seems however it could work quite well in the audio passband.

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Being redone - comming soon!

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post #18 of 71 Old 12-09-2006, 06:27 AM
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Hi,

Here is a picture of my setup with 3 TacT S2150X (tweaked) in an tri-amp configuration: .

In this configuration the 3 S2150X are used to power the 2 main speakers and the 2 subs: Left amp is for left speaker woofer and tweeter, center amp is for left and right subwoofers, right amp is for right speaker woofer and tweeter.

Nore: the center channel on the picture is powered by another amp (S2150) not visible on the picture.

Michel
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post #19 of 71 Old 12-09-2006, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfombellida View Post

In this configuration the 3 S2150X are used to power the 2 main speakers and the 2 subs: Left amp is for left speaker woofer and tweeter, center amp is for left and right subwoofers, right amp is for right speaker woofer and tweeter.

Michel,

Your mains are "vertically bi-amped" : and the subs are normal stereo mono-amped.

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Physicist
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post #20 of 71 Old 12-09-2006, 04:51 PM
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Morbius,

It is a mixture of vertical biamping for the mains and horizontal for the subs.

Each of the 3 amps receive the full stereo signal (the red box on the picture is an AES/EBU distribution box, 1 LR stereo input coming from a TacT TCS , 3 stereo outputs going to each amp) and then the amps implement crossovers and time alignment as needed:

1) the left amp extracts only the left signal from the stereo signal on its input and send the mid freq (150hz-3000hz, band-pass crossover) to its left output and the high freq (>3000hz, high-pass crossover) to its right output, these outputs are then connected to the left loudspeaker inputs (these loudspeakers don't have any analog crossovers inside, they are intended to be used with TacT amps)

2) the right amp does the same but on the right signal.

3) the center amp keeps the full stereo signal and implements a low-pass crossover (<150hz) and sends the filtered left and right channels to the left and right subwoofers.

Michel
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post #21 of 71 Old 12-09-2006, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfombellida View Post

Morbius,

It is a mixture of vertical biamping for the mains and horizontal for the subs.

Each of the 3 amps receive the full stereo signal (the red box on the picture is an AES/EBU distribution box, 1 LR stereo input coming from a TacT TCS , 3 stereo outputs going to each amp) and then the amps implement crossovers and time alignment as needed:

1) the left amp extracts only the left signal from the stereo signal on its input and send the mid freq (150hz-3000hz, band-pass crossover) to its left output and the high freq (>3000hz, high-pass crossover) to its right output, these outputs are then connected to the left loudspeaker inputs (these loudspeakers don't have any analog crossovers inside, they are intended to be used with TacT amps)

2) the right amp does the same but on the right signal.

3) the center amp keeps the full stereo signal and implements a low-pass crossover (<150hz) and sends the filtered left and right channels to the left and right subwoofers.

Michel

Michel,

You just described above what I said in my previous post.

Your mains are "vertically bi-amped"

Your subs are stereo mono-amped

Because you have only one channel going to each sub; they are
NOT "horizontonally bi-amped" - so there's NO MIXED biamping.

The subs are not bi-amped at all.

That's just normal stereo mono-amp.

All exactly as I stated before.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #22 of 71 Old 12-09-2006, 09:31 PM
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Look, you guys are talking past each other, and you're both right.

From the perspective of the signals, Michel's configuration is indeed triamped, because he's dividing the L&R signals into three frequency bands and amplifying each separately.

From the perspective of the speakers, Morbius is correct in saying that that the mains are biamped and the subs are mono-amped.

No contradiction. Morbius, I think you're just trying too hard to prove him wrong here when in fact you're simply talking from different points of reference. But frankly, Michel's point of reference is more informative for the sake of this discussion. After all, his configuration demonstrates the feasibility of using TacT equipment to do triamping, which was the issue at hand.

The one hitch in this setup is the need to distribute aech of the L&R signals to two separate inputs. That can be done very cleanly, but still, it would be good if the new Boz setups can eliminate the need to do that and do a full 3-way crossover.

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post #23 of 71 Old 12-10-2006, 12:02 AM
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Frantz, some excerpted specs I see on the tact page are:
Signal to Noise ratio +/-0.1dB
Frequency response 20Hz-20kHz 0.0005%
THD+Noise 0.0004%
Dynamic range 112dB


I don't get it.
What is 0.0005% doing attached to a freq response spec?
What is an SNR of +/-0.1dB?
THD+N of 0.0004% is excellent, if it was actual.

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post #24 of 71 Old 12-10-2006, 12:16 AM
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Morbius,

I was perhaps not totally clear (I actually did not mean that the subs are biamped... they are not, I just meant that they are wired horizontally as opposed to the main speakers) but as Michael wrote the system is indeed tri-amped from the signal perspective.

I decided to bi-amp the main speakers vertically to limit the length of speaker cables but it would have been as easy to triamp the whole thing horizontally: one amp for the tweeters, one amp for the mid, one amp for the subs. As a matter of fact, I initially had this horizontal configuration before I decided to review the cabling of my room.

The three drivers could have been in one single enclosure, it just happens that I use a separate enclosure for the subwoofer.

Note that my "subwoofers" are the Lyngdorf W210 (and Lyngdorf doesn't like to call them subwoofers but more a corner loaded woofer).

The signals coming from each individual drivers have been measured with the TacT TCS, and with the help of software tools, delays have been computed and implemented in the 2105X (the 2150X allows a delay resolution of 0.01ms). Once these delays are implemented in the amps the 3 drivers are time aligned and from the listening position the multiple enclosures virtually behave like one.

The TacT amps are indeed very flexible and ideal to implement multiamplified systems.

Michel
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post #25 of 71 Old 12-10-2006, 12:36 AM
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Hi Michael,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

The one hitch in this setup is the need to distribute aech of the L&R signals to two separate inputs. That can be done very cleanly, but still, it would be good if the new Boz setups can eliminate the need to do that and do a full 3-way crossover.

The TacT/Boz amps works on the principle that they receive the full stereo signal and filter it internally. All TacT/Boz amps have a daisy chain feature that allows the input signal of one amp to be routed (untouched) to the next amp to implement multiamping. With the Boz amp (216/2200), the daisy chaining can be done with S/PDIF or AES/EBU, with the S2150X it is only S/PDIF. As the signal coming from my TCS is AES/EBU, I decided not to use the daisy chain feature of the amps but rely on this external distribution box such that all amps see exactly the same type of input.

I know some 5-way systems implemented with the TacT/Boz amps, there is almost no limit in the configuration.

Michel
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post #26 of 71 Old 12-10-2006, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc View Post

Frantz, some excerpted specs I see on the tact page are:
Frequency response 20Hz-20kHz 0.0005%

Actually the frequency response is DC to 20khz

I know because Boz will modify the 216 to perform the following Rotary Woofer EQ utility.

0 to 10 Hz Flat

10 to 20 Hz EQ Boost Adjustable to 12 db per octave

The above yields up to 20Hz being 10 db above 10 hz.

Brickwall at 20 hz to cross over to cone subwoofer.
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post #27 of 71 Old 12-10-2006, 08:58 AM
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good going Peter... nice to see you working in the rotary woofer support!

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post #28 of 71 Old 12-10-2006, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

No contradiction. Morbius, I think you're just trying too hard to prove him wrong here when in fact you're simply talking from different points of reference. But frankly, Michel's point of reference is more informative for the sake of this discussion. After all, his configuration demonstrates the feasibility of using TacT equipment to do triamping, which was the issue at hand.

Michael,

That's what I was trying to point out to Michel - there's no contradiction;
but evidently he thought so - and tried clarifying in post #20.

We already know that the TacT system can tri-amp from Don Shaulis's description
of his tri-amped Apogee MiniGrand. The way Don has tri-amped his system - only
his RCS 2.2x needs the L&R signals. All the amps are downstream of the RCS; so
there's no need for multiple distributions of the L&R signal.

The RCS has one set of high/low x-overs. The low pass is sent to an amp
driving the lowest driver. The high-pass is daisy-chained to 2 other amps
programmed with x-overs; one high-pass, one low-pass.

Quote:


The one hitch in this setup is the need to distribute aech of the L&R signals to two separate inputs. That can be done very cleanly, but still, it would be good if the new Boz setups can eliminate the need to do that and do a full 3-way crossover.

The Boz does that. You feed L&R to the Boz and apply your choice of x-overs -
high-pass, low-pass, or band-pass. The outputs of thes x-overs are sent to
the amp modules after room correction filters are applied.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #29 of 71 Old 12-10-2006, 07:17 PM
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Hi

I will actually try this system with a secondary system built around a pair of Apogee Diva I acquired early this year... I will tri-amp them with Boz amplifiers... The level of flexibility afforded by the Boz/Tact system is extraordinary...

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post #30 of 71 Old 12-10-2006, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfombellida View Post

I was perhaps not totally clear (I actually did not mean that the subs are biamped... they are not, I just meant that they are wired horizontally as opposed to the main speakers) but as Michael wrote the system is indeed tri-amped from the signal perspective.

Michel.

I understand how your system is wired and that the subs are not bi-amped;
which is why I said they were stereo mono amped.

I'm just being picky about the use of the term "horizontal"

One doesn't normally use the term horizontal when describing speakers that are
mono-amped like your subs. There's no need to say horizontal since there's only
one way to hook-up a mono-amped stereo.

It's only when you bi-amp speakers that you have to use the terms horizontal and
vertical because there are two ways to bi-amp.

Since the subs are mono-amped; the use of the term horizontal is superfluous.
There's only one way to hook-up the subs.

Unless one has a 3-channel amp; there's no way to be purely vertical in a tri-amp
setup using stereo amps [ unless the amps can be bridged, or one is willing to idle
a couple of channels in separate amps]. One pair of drivers has got to be stereo mono-amped.

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