PS Audio Power Plant Premier Ongoing Review Thread!!! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 177 Old 01-02-2007, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

I've never used a Tice clock. Quit making stuff up. Quit telling me what I should be hearing. Your system isn't resolving enough to sound any different if its on or off so how would you know about break-in? If an amplifier or pre-amp manufacturer tells you that the component will gradually break-in and sound better after so many hours, you say it is fluff - but you're not even the engineer or designed it and you haven't designed any audio components. So quit wasting our time here.

as far as how revealing my system is, you have never heard it so you cant know, but then again PSA made a plugin to give you special powers maybe. And as far as breakin is concerned again there is ZERO SCIENCE behind it. For a lawyer you sure fall for hype pretty easy.

As far as the Tice Clock just going by this post from you. It was on this site http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com

Quote"David I suggest you try or anyone else out there a number of products if you can to compare the varying degrees of effectiveness when it comes to this tweak.

Products to compare with:

Tice Audio Original Tice Clock (1988)
Tice Solo Power Enhancer (1996)
Tice Power Block IIIb video enhancement option (same design as Solo Power Enhancer) (1995)
Electraclear ECU-1 (1997-discontinued but can be found used at The Cable Company 1-800-fatwyre or www.fatwyre.com)
API Power Enhancer 1
API Ultra Power Enhancer
Quantum Symphony filters (1999)

These products will give you varying degrees of effectiveness when compared with the Richard Gray Power Company. I think the Tice (Solo $349.00 list) will come out on top (wait for Doug Blackburn's review coming soon), but the Electraclear ECU-1 will really give it a run for its money at the same price as the Tice.

APM
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post #62 of 177 Old 01-02-2007, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by speco2003 View Post

as far as how revealing my system is, you have never heard it so you cant know, but then again PSA made a plugin to give you special powers maybe. And as far as breakin is concerned again there is ZERO SCIENCE behind it. For a lawyer you sure fall for hype pretty easy.

As far as the Tice Clock just going by this post from you. It was on this site http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com

Quote"David I suggest you try or anyone else out there a number of products if you can to compare the varying degrees of effectiveness when it comes to this tweak.

Products to compare with:

Tice Audio Original Tice Clock (1988)
Tice Solo Power Enhancer (1996)
Tice Power Block IIIb video enhancement option (same design as Solo Power Enhancer) (1995)
Electraclear ECU-1 (1997-discontinued but can be found used at The Cable Company 1-800-fatwyre or www.fatwyre.com)
API Power Enhancer 1
API Ultra Power Enhancer
Quantum Symphony filters (1999)

These products will give you varying degrees of effectiveness when compared with the Richard Gray Power Company. I think the Tice (Solo $349.00 list) will come out on top (wait for Doug Blackburn's review coming soon), but the Electraclear ECU-1 will really give it a run for its money at the same price as the Tice.

APM
Steve Bruzonsky
Moderator"

Speco. Pay attention. Its signed "APM" which is Alan Maher. He asked me to post that for him at AVS back when I moderated the tweaks forum. By the way, I reviewed the RGPC and it did nothing in my system and I said that on AVS.
And I never used Tice, that's Alan Maher raving about it.

SPeco, you have a habit of jumping to conclusions instead of asking questions.
You are a NO IT ALL.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #63 of 177 Old 01-02-2007, 12:50 PM
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Here is somethiing to think about. I could be wrong, but it appears that the new premier does not have balanced output - at least there is no mention of it in their blurb. And reading between lines, it makes sense: it bypasses to the full wall power during turn on surges of connected equipment - not really possible to do w/o a big output iso tranny I would think, which is a big no-no for PS.
So, after all these years of using balanced as a major marketing ploy, has PS sacrificed that feature... lets see, for efficiency?
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post #64 of 177 Old 01-02-2007, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ValhallaPC View Post

Have you heard MultiWave? After you hear it you will agree that 60Hz should be illegal. If I would build a city I would output MultiWave through separate Valhalla power cords, each apartment gets it's own power cord from the power plant. There will be millions of cables on the streets but who cares when it sounds so good!

I'm not saying it doesn't make some equipment sound better. I firmly beleive it does. The problem is how it does it. Like I said before I can accomplish the same thing by feeding an amplifier 170 volts with a variac. You bet it will sound more dynamic and brighter - that is until something fails from being over stressed. Could last many years but it's still wrong to stress something. You wouldn't run your car at redline constantly would you?

If you want more dynamic and cleaner sounding amplifiers, then buy them. But don't force the stuff you own by feeding it improper power supply signals.

BTW, you haven't a clue why we use AC power distribution do you? Transmission system transformers perform a critical function allowing power to be transmitted many hundreds of miles. We figured that out in the late 1800s when we scrapped Edison's DC system that barely went a few blocks in lower Manhatten!

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post #65 of 177 Old 01-02-2007, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Speco. Pay attention. Its signed "APM" which is Alan Maher. He asked me to post that for him at AVS back when I moderated the tweaks forum. By the way, I reviewed the RGPC and it did nothing in my system and I said that on AVS.
And I never used Tice, that's Alan Maher raving about it.

SPeco, you have a habit of jumping to conclusions instead of asking questions.
You are a NO IT ALL.

Oh gosh why did I not see that. How did I not know??? Really if your going to post things for other people maybe you shouldnt have your name on it.

Again I dont have the plug in for mind reading that you do.
I am a Know it all.
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post #66 of 177 Old 01-02-2007, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subraman View Post

Here is somethiing to think about. I could be wrong, but it appears that the new premier does not have balanced output - at least there is no mention of it in their blurb. And reading between lines, it makes sense: it bypasses to the full wall power during turn on surges of connected equipment - not really possible to do w/o a big output iso tranny I would think, which is a big no-no for PS.
So, after all these years of using balanced as a major marketing ploy, has PS sacrificed that feature... lets see, for efficiency?


Yes. The Premier doesn't output balanced power. But it has five isolated zones of two outlets each. Paul McGowan of PS Audio has commented on the PS Audio forum that they felt that the Premier performed so well with so little noise that
balanced power was not necessary.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
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post #67 of 177 Old 01-03-2007, 04:13 AM
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Isolated how?

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #68 of 177 Old 01-03-2007, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's the full info on the Premier from the PS Audio website, which includes info re the isolated zones. For more specific info you can check the forum at www.psaudio.com, as Paul McGowan regularly answers questions there and gives some further information provided its not considered too proprietary.


The Power Plant Premier is the world's first and only low distortion, high efficiency AC power regenerator. The device provides regulated, low distortion sine waves from the AC wall socket and can power an entire system.

By generating new AC, the Premier produces up to 1500 watts of regulated AC power at an efficiency of 85% with little to distortion or noise. The Premier has ten outlets, five IsoZones, a built in power sequencer, THD analyzer, voltage meter, MultiWave, CleanWave and a remote control to access all the features.

The Premier is our finest power product ever made and replaces the P300, P500, P600, P1000 and P1200 Power Plants.

The Premier is housed in a scrumptious new chassis whose industrial design is based on the BMW automobile and is the brain child of one of our country's brightest new ID talents, Chris Malato.

Not just another box the Premier marries solid aluminum castings, extrusions, milled blocks and hand crafted parts to form one of the most stunning pieces of industrial art anyone's laid eyes on. You'd be quite proud to display this beauty in your system.

A little history
In 1997, PS Audio introduced the world's first AC regenerator, the P300 Power Plant. The P300 was an instant hit amongst Audiophiles the world over and there are nearly 3000 in the field. The P300 produced up to 300 watts of pure regenerated AC power.

The idea behind the P300 was based on the principal that filtering the AC with a power conditioner was only a Band Aid solution because it did not address the most important problems in AC power delivery: regulating the voltage, high distortion clipped sine waves, multiple harmonics and noise.

No simple series or parallel filter can correct these problems. In order to produce perfect sine waves, regardless of the quality of the input AC, it is necessary to add energy back into the sine wave to replace what's missing. That is exactly what the Power Plants do.

Unfortunately, there was a hitch: the technology used in the P300 was not efficient and up to half the energy consumed was wasted in heat and restricted output power. So, while the ground breaking P300 would power most preamps, CD players and turntables, it was not capable of powering power amplifiers, receivers and integrateds.

To solve this problem we introduced larger models that could deliver more power, with the largest being the P1200 Power Plant that weighed in at 150 lbs! The performance of these devices was unquestioned but their inefficiency led to a number of problems and limitations.

To solve these problems we wanted a dream machine that offered everything in a Power Plant with higher efficiency. This turns out to be a rather difficult technological challenge that the engineering team at PS has struggled with for nearly 10 years.

A dream come true
The breakthrough came several years ago when our VP of engineering, Bob Stadtherr, came up with a brainstorm that led to a patent application for a new technology and eventually, the Power Plant Premier. The 50% efficiency of the older Power Plants was upgraded to an astonishing 85% using Bob's new technology.

Suddenly it was possible to build a Power Plant capable of delivering almost as much as the wall has to offer.

Once we had the technology in place we started adding features that our customers had asked for over the years and finally, the Power Plant Premier was born.

The technology To understand how the Premier works and why it is efficient, it's necessary to first understand how the older Power Plants work and why they are not efficient.

The original Power Plant technology was relatively simple: a stereo power amplifier fed 60 Hz from a sine wave generator. The output of the stereo amplifier was connected to the AC input of the connected equipment. Each channel of the stereo amplifier produced ½ the necessary 60Hz sine wave voltage and when you combined the two channels across a load, you got 120 volts (in the US) at 60Hz.

The Power Plants used conventional class AB power amplifiers to drive the power and these types of amplifiers are about 50% efficient, hence the low efficiency of the Power Plant. The reason these amplifiers are inefficient stems from the fact that they require a large power supply voltage, generating heat as the signal travels between the supply voltages extremes.

There are other amplifier topologies that are more efficient, like the Class D amplifiers we use in the G Series, but these produce too much noise to be used as a Power Plant.

In the G Series, this noise doesn't matter because it feeds a loudspeaker which cannot reproduce the 500 kHz noise and is unaffected. But a Power Plant has to be clean; very clean.

Bob's discovery was a way to lower the large power supply voltages so the amp was efficient. To do this, Bob figured out a way to move the entire power supply up and down in lock step with the sine wave generator, so the voltage across the amp is only what is needed, thus increasing the efficiency. In most other respects, the old and the new Power Plants are the same.

Let's take a tour Now that we know how it works, let's see what a Premier has to offer.

Perhaps the biggest benefit is unlimited power. At 1500 watts there's enough power for even the most demanding systems. Whether it's an audio based two channel system or a video based multi-channel home theater, 1500 watts will power pretty much anything you have.

The Premier takes what the wall AC has to offer and converts it into perfect AC. Rebuilding the sine wave into this low distortion waveform is a huge benefit to owner's of the Premier. Most AC power is deformed and flawed out of the wall, with the top of the sine wave missing. The Premier fixes this problem as well as provides instantaneous voltage regulation to connected equipment, regardless of the power demands.

Surge and spike protection are unparalleled in the Premier. Not only does your equipment benefit from the over under voltage control of the Premier, instantaneous non-volatile spike protection, but the voltage regulating capabilities of the Premier keep everything connected to it at a perfect steady voltage regardless of input conditions. Connect a simple, inexpensive computer UPS to the Premier and even in blackouts, the Premier will continue to work perfectly.

Inside is an amazing piece of construction. From the custom built Power Port AC receptacles, to the 1/4 inch thick copper bars that carry the power from the Power Cartridge to each of the receptacles with zero loss, hundreds of hours of design time have gone into the building of this amazing power delivery system.

Isolation from connected equipment. The 5 IsoZones and 10 receptacles on the rear of the Power Plant Premier keep one piece of equipment from contaminating other pieces plugged into the Premier.

The Premier also has a unique feature that allows it to apply more power than it can regenerate for short periods of time. For instance, if you turn on a very large power amplifier, the turn-on power required by the amp can exceed the Premier's regenerating capabilities. No problem, the Premier simply connects directly to the wall AC until the amplifier has powered up, then reverts back to regenerated power.

Front panel features
The front panel of the new Premier has a number of innovative features and functions not found on any other power product.

MultiWave and CleanWave
Two of the many features unique to Power Plants are their ability to produce different waveforms. Unlike a power conditioner that simply filters, Power Plants can produce perfect sine waves as well as modified sine waves.

MultiWaves were first introduced nearly five years ago. Invented by our good friend and Northrop Grumman engineer, Doug Goldberg, MultiWave revolutionized the AC power conditioning industry. Instead of the classic sine wave, there can be advantages to connected power supplies by changing some of the sine waves parameters.

Of all the MultiWave choices we have lived with over the years, the most consistent winner was MultiWave 1. This waveform, used in every version of MultiWave as well as AutoWave extends the charging time of the sine wave peak so attached power supplies have less ripple. In the Premier, we decided easy-was-better and offered one choice for MultiWave instead of many. To our ears, this is the clear winner.

CleanWave was introduced about a year ago and degausses or cleans attached equipment. It does this by varying the frequency and amplitude of the sine wave in small bubble-like responses. The Premier maintains this feature and CleanWave is available via the remote control as well as MultiWave.

THD in and out
No one has ever dared place a true THD meter on an AC power product, and for good reason; they cannot do anything about the problem. Our power lines are polluted with 3d, 5th, 7th, 9th and higher harmonics as a result of AC sine wave distortion, common in everyone's home. These harmonics generate higher order harmonics as well. By purifying and rebuilding the sine wave, you eliminate these harmonics. The two go hand-in-hand.

Why do you care if the sine wave is distorted or clipped? Simple: clipped sine waves cannot deliver the needed peak power. Once the integrity of the sine wave is restored, then the harmonics are reduced and your equipment performs at its best.

A common power filter, whether series or parallel, cannot lower the harmonic distortion of the AC without reducing its level, because you need to add energy back into the sine wave to fix it properly. Passive power filters can only take away, they cannot add, so the sine wave is always distorted.

Power Plants can and do replace the missing parts of the sine wave to produce a low distortion output, low impedance output even under extreme loads.

The front panel of the Power Plant can read both incoming and outgoing harmonic distortion, known as THD. You won't find this on any other product in the world, and as we said, for good reason.

Voltage in and out
The Premier's front panel also allows you to measure both incoming and outgoing voltage, or you can monitor the difference between the two. If the line voltage is 110 volts, for example, the Power Plant will show an output voltage of 120 and a difference of +10. The +10 is what the Power Plant is adding to the output to keep the voltage steady.

While several of our competitors make long term regulators that either correct these voltage differences slowly (like the AVS 2000) or in jumpy steps like those found on a UPS or transformer based units, they cannot react quickly when the voltage changes are due to power amps and projector demands under real world conditions. The Power Plant can.

Remote control
Perhaps the one consistent customer request we've had over the years is for a remote control to activate the different functions and display options. The new Premier has an included remote control that can change the display brightness, choose THD or voltage, select MultiWave or sine wave, or activate the CleanWave function.

Rack ears included
Many of our customers have asked for an easy rack mount solution for the Power Plant and Quintessence Power Center. Each of these products is two rack high (3.5 inch) and comes with rack ears you can choose to add or keep off the front.

Rear panel features
The rear panel of the Power Plant Premier is where the rubber meets the road. On the rear panel there are 10 AC receptacles, 5 IsoZones, a power sequencer, circuit breaker, CATV connectors and telephone in and out.

5 IsoZones
IsoZones are one of the new technologies we're introducing with the new power line that includes the Premier Power Plant, Quintessence, Quintet and Duet Power Centers. An IsoZone is a separate differential mode filter, fed by a common mode Nano Crystalline filter.

Each of the 5 IsoZones on the rear of the Premier Power Plant separates equipment noise. All electronic equipment generates AC line noise, some more than others. When you plug a digital device in the same receptacle as an analog device, the noise of one can interfere and contaminate the performance of the other. To solve this problem, you need effective isolation between equipment.

The challenge is to build a filter that is effective at isolating noise while at the same time, non-intrusive. It's not difficult to build a filter that has remarkable performance in terms of noise reduction. It is extremely difficult to build such a filter without using a lot of wire and components that restrict the power delivery of the filter. The IsoZones use very short pieces of heavy gauge wire, wrapped around small high permeability magnetics to achieve both these design objectives.

To further enhance their performance, each IsoZone is fed from a common mode filter made of pure Nano Crystalline, a remarkable new space age material that has the highest permeability of any magnetic material currently available. Together, the two filters form an isolation and cleaning network that is both non-intrusive and an excellent performer.

Power sequencer
The new Premier has the capability to drive an entire system and it is therefore essential that connected equipment be turned on in the proper order. Preamps, surround processors and sources of all kinds need to be turned on first, while power amplifiers, integrateds and receivers should be turned on last.

In some cases, like that of a Tivo, hard drive music based systems or control setups, it is important to never lose power. The Premier's rear panel power sequencer allows you to select any of the three available power zones and choose always on, switched on, delayed on. With these choices, you can setup your system to automatically leave power on, turn it on or off via the front panel power button (or the remote), and delay the turn on sequence until the source equipment has been activated.

12 volt trigger
The Power Plant also features two 12 volt triggers. These triggers are easy to use and will turn on or off the P3 (Power Plant Premier) power sequencer. Apply 12 volts at either trigger input and the P3 will sequence on the connected equipment. Remove the 12 volts and the P3 will turn off the connected equipment. !2 volt triggers are commonly found on surround processors, receivers, automation equipment and some preamplifiers.

Power Cartridge surge and control
One of the more interesting and novel features of the Premier, as well as all products in the new power line is the Power Cartridge AC input module. Invented by PS Engineering, the Power Cartridge contains the surge and spike protection, circuit breaker, over/under voltage control and the first stage of common mode filtering.

The unique cartridge is the heart of our new series and can be replaced in the field should a problem ever occur. For instance, if the home is struck by lightning or a surge or spike big enough to damage the cartridge, it easily slides out and can be replaced by the dealer.

CATV, telephone For those owners of complete AV systems that have connected video and telephone, the rear panel supports two sets of antenna, cable TV, satellite or anything using a CATV connector or two sets of telephones. Anything plugged into these in/out connectors will be protected from high voltage spikes that can come through these outside world connections.

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post #69 of 177 Old 01-03-2007, 05:55 AM
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OK Steve, you provided a copy of what is on the PS site. I am sure that Paul appreciates the advertising.

With regard to the isolation, the following is said:

"To further enhance their performance, each IsoZone is fed from a common mode filter made of pure Nano Crystalline, a remarkable new space age material that has the highest permeability of any magnetic material currently available. Together, the two filters form an isolation and cleaning network that is both non-intrusive and an excellent performer. "

OK, this sounds like it might be good. Where are the specifications on what bands are filtered and to what degree? Where are the specs to support the claims regarding surge suppression? Why should one have to ask the designer for such basic information if the product actually performs so well?

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #70 of 177 Old 01-03-2007, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

OK Steve, you provided a copy of what is on the PS site. I am sure that Paul appreciates the advertising.

With regard to the isolation, the following is said:

"To further enhance their performance, each IsoZone is fed from a common mode filter made of pure Nano Crystalline, a remarkable new space age material that has the highest permeability of any magnetic material currently available. Together, the two filters form an isolation and cleaning network that is both non-intrusive and an excellent performer. "

OK, this sounds like it might be good. Where are the specifications on what bands are filtered and to what degree? Where are the specs to support the claims regarding surge suppression? Why should one have to ask the designer for such basic information if the product actually performs so well?

Leonard, I am just an end user. I have no idea re further specifics. You might want to join the forum at www.psaudio.com and ask those questions, as Paul McGowan regularly responds. I appreciate that perhaps if you or I marketed the product, we would put out those specs - but we don't, and what matters to me most is how well the product performs.

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post #71 of 177 Old 01-03-2007, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

The Power Plant Premier is the world's first and only low distortion, high efficiency AC power regenerator. The device provides regulated, low distortion sine waves from the AC wall socket and can power an entire system.


A little history
In 1997, PS Audio introduced the world's first AC regenerator, the P300 Power Plant. The P300 was an instant hit amongst Audiophiles the world over and there are nearly 3000 in the field. The P300 produced up to 300 watts of pure regenerated AC power.

Wrong on both counts.

Any on-line UPS system does exctly the same thing. Note that most low cost UPS systems you find at Best Buy are not true online units.

Regenerated AC has been around since the 1950s. Perhaps even beofre that. the first systems were motor-generator systems with large flywheels to provide ride through. In the mid 1960s SCR technology was used to make solid state invertors.

This is hardly a novel idea. What is a first is packaging it in a fancy box and selling as a high end AV system accessory.

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post #72 of 177 Old 01-03-2007, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Clarification: The above quote attributed to me is my quoting from the PS Audio website
all of their listed information regarding the Power Plant Premier, and not my representation.
All I know is that personally the PS Audio Power Plants have worked very well in my system, I am very please with them especially now the Premier, and I have never seen a UPS unit such as Glimmie or Frantz talks about recommended for home theater/audio purposes - you'd think if they were competitive price and performance wise, that they would be advertising in that market, wouldn't you? I am skeptical that such quality units are available at the price point of the Premier Power Plant. But I am open to being educated.

Glimmie, why don't you give us what on line UPS systems you recommend and their cost, with web links if possible so we can see the specs and cost, etc.

Also, for us non-technofiles, would you please explain how an on line UPS generates its pure sine wave and how its method differs, if at all, from how PS Audio generates their pure sine wave.

Thanks.

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post #73 of 177 Old 01-03-2007, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Glimmie, why don't you give us what on line UPS systems you recommend and their cost, with web links if possible so we can see the specs and cost, etc.

I'm not Glimmie, but I can tell you that there are 4 major on-line UPS manufacturers worth looking at.

1) Eaton/Powerware
2) Emerson/Liebert
3) Schneider/MGE
4) APC (recently purchased by Schneider)

Most of the other brands you see for sale are actually designed and manufactured by one of these 'big four'.

Quote:


Also, for us non-technofiles, would you please explain how an on line UPS generates its pure sine wave and how its method differs, if at all, from how PS Audio generates their pure sine wave.

There is no one specific answer, as different models from different manufacturers provide different output qualities and use different technologies. However, there are a few consistent points.

1) All online double-conversion UPSs do the same basic thing as the above device (PPP): They take the line power, convert it to DC (rectification), then use an inverter to create an AC output. The DC bus is also linked to a battery string which provides the actual backup energy; more batteries = more up-time when the line drops.
2) The inversion stage is generally built by using one or more strings of large transistors or IGBTs, controlled by a microprocessor that digitally creates the desired output waveshape. (You can think of this as an IGBT power amplifier with a digital signal source; it's actually more complex, but this is the basic idea.) The best of these units actually analyze the load profile in real-time and change the drive signal to compensate for non-linear loads, thus maintaining an near-perfect power factor and absolute voltage regulation (eliminating the need for the inductive filters described in the marketing literature above).
3)Anyone who is in the UPS or critical power industry finds this discussion to be 'old-hat' and not remarkable at all.

The only real difference I see is in the efficiency - 85% is pretty low, and wouldn't be competitive in the UPS industry anymore. See this link:

15kVA UPS

This UPS provides true sine wave output, 14 minutes battery backup, power factor correction, voltage regulation (1% under static load conditions), 'true regeneration' (to use the term used on this board), >90% efficiency, and the base price is very low in comparison to the audio solutions discussed here (I won't put numbers here - I think it's against board rules).
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post #74 of 177 Old 01-03-2007, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

All I know is that personally the PS Audio Power Plants have worked very well in my system

The "all I know" part seems to sum up this thread. I, and others, have asked some reasonable questions that one would think would be worth considering on a forum dedicated to AV Science. Those questions have been dismissed and all we get are long quotes from the PS site and patronizing moronisms quoting those who praise the product with no documentation of its effects.

I really would like to understand the science and technology of power supplies better. Given that I work on them and install systems all the time, I think I know a bit. It has been impossible to learn anything from what I have seen here, other than what some THINK they are experiencing about the product.

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I have never seen a UPS unit such as Glimmie or Frantz talks about recommended for home theater/audio purposes - you'd think if they were competitive price and performance wise, that they would be advertising in that market, wouldn't you?

No. The UPS manufacturers are focused on a different (much larger) market entirely, and probably wouldn't find the high-end audio market to have enough volume to be worth the marketing expense.
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I'm not Glimmie, but I can tell you that there are 4 major on-line UPS manufacturers worth looking at.

1) Eaton/Powerware
2) Emerson/Liebert
3) Schneider/MGE
4) APC (recently purchased by Schneider)

Most of the other brands you see for sale are actually designed and manufactured by one of these 'big four'.



There is no one specific answer, as different models from different manufacturers provide different output qualities and use different technologies. However, there are a few consistent points.

1) All online double-conversion UPSs do the same basic thing as the above device (PPP): They take the line power, convert it to DC (rectification), then use an inverter to create an AC output. The DC bus is also linked to a battery string which provides the actual backup energy; more batteries = more up-time when the line drops.
2) The inversion stage is generally built by using one or more strings of large transistors or IGBTs, controlled by a microprocessor that digitally creates the desired output waveshape. (You can think of this as an IGBT power amplifier with a digital signal source; it's actually more complex, but this is the basic idea.) The best of these units actually analyze the load profile in real-time and change the drive signal to compensate for non-linear loads, thus maintaining an near-perfect power factor and absolute voltage regulation (eliminating the need for the inductive filters described in the marketing literature above).
3)Anyone who is in the UPS or critical power industry finds this discussion to be 'old-hat' and not remarkable at all.

The only real difference I see is in the efficiency - 85% is pretty low, and wouldn't be competitive in the UPS industry anymore. See this link:

15kVA UPS

This UPS provides true sine wave output, 14 minutes battery backup, power factor correction, voltage regulation (1% under static load conditions), 'true regeneration' (to use the term used on this board), >90% efficiency, and the base price is very low in comparison to the audio solutions discussed here (I won't put numbers here - I think it's against board rules).

Thanks for the good info.

How many outlets do these units have. Do they have isolated outlets or banks of outlets? Do they have always on or switched outlets for different components?Its ok to list retail prices on the forum - just not sale prices, so please give me one or two units you recommend, with web link, and retail price. Thanks.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

The "all I know" part seems to sum up this thread. I, and others, have asked some reasonable questions that one would think would be worth considering on a forum dedicated to AV Science. Those questions have been dismissed and all we get are long quotes from the PS site and patronizing moronisms quoting those who praise the product with no documentation of its effects.

I really would like to understand the science and technology of power supplies better. Given that I work on them and install systems all the time, I think I know a bit. It has been impossible to learn anything from what I have seen here, other than what some THINK they are experiencing about the product.

You are being unfair. I tell you what I know from my subjective experience, and to the extent I feel that I have objective knowledge I will tell you. But I didn't design the product, and I'm no engineer. You are certainly within your rights to say that you aren't comfortable using a particular product because you don't have your technical questions answered.

What do you use, if anything, for power conditioning for your audio or home theater system?

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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Speco2003,

Please tell us about your home system. Is the Pioneer receiver your reference component?

Thank You
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OK, this sounds like it might be good. Where are the specifications on what bands are filtered and to what degree? Where are the specs to support the claims regarding surge suppression? Why should one have to ask the designer for such basic information if the product actually performs so well?

1) Supposedly, PSA is working on some sort of new testing procedure which would enable them to quantify the degree of filtration. Considering that other companies are readily able to provide graphs of attenuation vs. frequency possibly suggests that their claims are based upon calculations.
2) PSA has a completely bizarre definition of surge that has changed over time. Presently, they're looking at surges as overvoltage conditions. In essence they're maybe protecting you from nudges as opposed to anything resembling electrical catastrophes. Further, none of their products are tested to any sort of IEEE or TVSS protocols. Your protection is based on word of mouth.
3) Perusals of PSA's forums as well as their little niche in AA demonstrates an abysmal lack of knowledge by customers, present and potential, and answers to many questions are at a level slightly above that.

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post #80 of 177 Old 01-08-2007, 05:39 PM
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2) PSA has a completely bizarre definition of surge that has changed over time. Presently, they're looking at surges as overvoltage conditions. In essence they're maybe protecting you from nudges as opposed to anything resembling electrical catastrophes. Further, none of their products are tested to any sort of IEEE or TVSS protocols. Your protection is based on word of mouth.

This is one of the things that bothers me throughout the retail power conditioning market. There ARE standards - UL 1449 and NEMA LS-1, to give two examples. However, very few of the producst that say they provide transient or surge suppression are actually listed by UL, CSA, or one of the other NRTLs under these standards. In fact, it's pretty rare that you even see a peak surge current rating or a maximum let-through voltage - they all seem to want to use the 'joules' ratings, which tell you absolutely nothing about the ability of the device to eliminate a transient.

Oh, well......
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Certainly there's far more to consider than joules by itself, which is indicative of longevity more than anything else. That it's not specifically listed by the UL doesn't bother me so much as that it's not tested to any industry established protocols. Given the many reports from users that various products have audible hums, turn off at random, and so forth, does not inspire any great confidence. They should be thankful they have an apologetic user base that rises to their defence. We might still have the Ford Pinto if the press and users were as vociferous.

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Joule ratings seem to be much less useful than I had assumed. I recently took apart a CyberPower 1090 rated at 3000 Joules and a Panamax rated at 1650. They had virtually identical complements of MOVs. I suspect that some vendors are adding up the capacity of all of the dumping devices, even though you could never have a situation where every combination was dumping simultaneously.

Does that make the CP unit a bad choice? Obviously not, as for very similar protection you can find the unit for a lot less, and I use them. The point is that you can't assume greater protection from a joule rating. One thing I like about Panamax is that they have some of the most complete specs, even rating the clamping voltages on the signal lines. Few others are as complete in their specifications. Some publish virtually nothing.

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Joule ratings seem to be much less useful than I had assumed. [...] The point is that you can't assume greater protection from a joule rating.

Here are a few points to consider re: TVSS devices.

1) The first thing you need to know is how many 'modes' of protection are provided. A 'mode' is a voltage relationship, i.e. Neutral-Ground, Line-Ground, Line-Neutral. Each 'mode' will have its own MOV or bank of MOVs.

2) Most TVSS units in the US use MOVs. All MOVs fail eventually. They are sacrificial devices, like fuses, and are designed to wear out as they absorb transient energy. Since MOVs WILL fail over time, it is best to have them in a separate device, so that they can be replaced when necessary. Relying on internal surge suppression MOVs in expensive equipment is not a good idea - they should be the last line of defense.

3) Joules determine how much energy the TVSS can absorb before it fails.

4) Peak surge current tells you how fast the total device can absorb the energy in a transient, and is generally rated in kA. If there is 10,000A of available current in a transient, but the TVSS has a peak surge current of 5000A, the other 5000A is going into your equipment.

5) Clamping voltage and time tells you how much of the transient will be let through anyway (no TVSS is perfect - it would fail within a week if it were designed too close to the nominal voltage); clamping time tells you how far into the transient you will be when the MOVs start to conduct and absorb the energy.

6) Peak kA is the best rating to use when trying to determine how long a TVSS will last in a given situation. Why? The more MOVs you have in parallel, the more kA it can handle. So, in general, higher kA = higher MOV count = longer life.

7) Peak kA can be expressed as per mode (per phase) or total for the device. This can be confusing.

Bottom line: I can have a device that will absorb 1,000,000 Joules, but if its clamping time is 500 msec at 475V, it will be useless.
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It's not that the rating is useless Icaillo, it's just that it doesn't represent the full picture and only provides one aspect of something to consider. You've been around this hobby long enough to recognize that many specs that manufacturers provide are self serving of their own interests. It's like people who get hung up over 100 watts vs. 105. Marketing loves this. Now, if you first go whole house, which will throttle the surge down to only something like 300 or 400 volts, your plug in surge device will likely become an eyesore before it ever needs replacement simply because the bulk of the work was done where it was supposed to be done - at the breakers.

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post #85 of 177 Old 01-09-2007, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Joule ratings seem to be much less useful than I had assumed. I recently took apart a CyberPower 1090 rated at 3000 Joules and a Panamax rated at 1650. They had virtually identical complements of MOVs. I suspect that some vendors are adding up the capacity of all of the dumping devices, even though you could never have a situation where every combination was dumping simultaneously.

Does that make the CP unit a bad choice? Obviously not, as for very similar protection you can find the unit for a lot less, and I use them. The point is that you can't assume greater protection from a joule rating. One thing I like about Panamax is that they have some of the most complete specs, even rating the clamping voltages on the signal lines. Few others are as complete in their specifications. Some publish virtually nothing.


You also need to look at the circuit topology, lead length for individual units and let through voltage for the standard tests (if even performed by the manufacturer)

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post #86 of 177 Old 01-09-2007, 12:03 PM
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Speco2003,

Please tell us about your home system. Is the Pioneer receiver your reference component?

Thank You


AHHH the ol your system isnt defining enough to use this power product or cable argument. Thats a fine argument except the companies that sell this gear sell it to the everyman that they fool into thinking they need. Is the pioneer my reference? If by that you mean is this what my HT gear uses then yes. So its time for a gear pissing match?
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post #87 of 177 Old 01-09-2007, 12:37 PM
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just a fact, i had a chance to use that PS 300 thngy in my audio system in 1990s. glad theres such a discussion

HEROES Guide to videos and information about Heroes TV series on NBC
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post #88 of 177 Old 01-09-2007, 06:37 PM
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Speco2003,

I was just interested in what you listen to.

Why the hostility?

Adios!
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post #89 of 177 Old 01-10-2007, 05:50 AM
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Gee, like that was relevent. Equally as irrelevent we have from randyswart.com

Steve Bruzonsky, Arizona's Get Well, Get on With Life Attorney, is the 567th largest lawfirm in Arizona.

Steve, you should consider filing a class action lawsuit against some of these companies. I'd support ya!

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post #90 of 177 Old 01-10-2007, 07:47 AM
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So its time for a gear pissing match?

Yup. Any time someone starts listing the equipment you own, consider it a sign that they've completely run out of facts about the actual topic being discussed and have no where else to go for distraction.

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