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post #91 of 120 Old 01-12-2007, 05:47 PM
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I'm sorry, but what *again* did Kim lie about in the first place?!?

Oh, that's right, *nothing*.

John
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post #92 of 120 Old 01-12-2007, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

Randy,

I don't think we're judging Kim "as a person".
.

I guess it is just the way "words" are used. For example, I was addressing your statement, and you have now introduced others to back up what you have said ("we're"). Look, I am not that interested in continuing this because it really doesn't go anywhere. If you say you didn't mean to judge him as a person, I accept that. Continue with your exchange with John if you like because I don't really care about that. It is going to happen no matter what. I just hate to see anyone brought into it that can't really defend themselves (because they aren't part of this forum). Truce!
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post #93 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I'm sorry, but what *again* did Kim lie about in the first place?!?

Oh, that's right, *nothing*.

John,

Not a lie - but an "admission of error"!!!

It's the same admission of error that you acknowledged in your post #56 of this thread,
that Kim Ryrie explained in the DEQX forum.

Try to keep up.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #94 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

Not a lie - but an "admission of error"!!!

It's the same admission of error that you acknowledged in your post #56 of this thread,
that Kim Ryrie explained in the DEQX forum.

Try to keep up.

If you're speaking of the reality that steep slopes will have ringing (which largely cancels acoustically), when did Kim say that it didn't exist? You're trying to conflate an "admission of imperfection" with being guilty of something. Kim brought this up earlier. Since you're not a DEQX owner or user, you'd probably not have gotten the "memo".

You are the one lacking in character and intellectual honesty, not Kim. God forbid that all electronics manufacturers don't run to you to confess all the imperfections in their gear, Lord Morbius.

John
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post #95 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

If you're speaking of the reality that steep slopes will have ringing (which largely cancels acoustically), when did Kim say that it didn't exist? You're trying to conflate an "admission of imperfection" with being guilty of something. Kim brought this up earlier. Since you're not a DEQX owner or user, you'd probably not have gotten the "memo".

You are the one lacking in character and intellectual honesty, not Kim. God forbid that all electronics manufacturers don't run to you to confess all the imperfections in their gear, Lord Morbius.

John,

I'm just countering your claim that I didn't know how steep crossover slopes worked in the Xd.

I merely pointing out that I immediately latched onto an "error" or "imperfection", if that's what you
want to call it now - that evidently escaped you and Kim Ryrie, although Kim evidently realized
the problem and reported it on the DEQX forum.

How is it that someone who didn't understand how the DEQX works according to you; namely
me; immediately latched onto a flaw, error, or imperfection of the system? How does one do
that without understanding how the system works?

I'm citing that as evidence that I DO UNDERSTAND the workings of DEQX and steep slopes
in the Xd. Evidently I understand it better than you do. After all, I'm the one that caught the
flaw we're talking about; when it escaped you totally, and evidently escaped Kim temporarily.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #96 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

I'm just countering your claim that I didn't know how steep crossover slopes worked in the Xd.

I believe there are, what, 30 pages of you *asking* me how steep crossovers affect dispersion because your contention was that they didn't. Funny how you want to rewrite history to not look intellectually challenged.
Quote:



I merely pointing out that I immediately latched onto an "error" or "imperfection", if that's what you
want to call it now - that evidently escaped you and Kim Ryrie, although Kim evidently realized
the problem and reported it on the DEQX forum.

WHAT?!? Talk about EGO. Kim is an engineer and clearly knew about "ringing". You asked him about it and he explained it to you. He was asked about it on DEQX forum long before that and when you brought it up, I explained that I remember something coming up about it and Kim explaining that it exists, but acoustically cancels, at least in the horizontal axis. NOW you want to act as though you *discovered* this?!? That's, well, I'd say unbelievable except it is you. You are really Al Gore, aren't you?
Quote:



How is it that someone who didn't understand how the DEQX works according to you; namely
me; immediately latched onto a flaw, error, or imperfection of the system? How does one do
that without understanding how the system works?

You understand math, you just don't understand audio very well. Want to go over your incredible "half-wavelength" theory on proper placement of dipoles again, Mr Brainiac?
Quote:



I'm citing that as evidence that I DO UNDERSTAND the workings of DEQX and steep slopes
in the Xd. Evidently I understand it better than you do. After all, I'm the one that caught the
flaw we're talking about; when it escaped you totally, and evidently escaped Kim temporarily.

You didn't catch the flaw, it was already known and discussed long before our argument over how steep crossovers function.

Keep up your fantasies.

John
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post #97 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I believe there are, what, 30 pages of you *asking* me how steep crossovers affect dispersion because your contention was that they didn't. Funny how you want to rewrite history to not look intellectually challenged.

John,

Talk about rewriting history. I said that steep crossovers can't totally CORRECT dispersion
errors. One is in the frequency domain; the other in the polar domain.

Quote:


WHAT?!? Talk about EGO. Kim is an engineer and clearly knew about "ringing". You asked him about it and he explained it to you. He was asked about it on DEQX forum long before that and when you brought it up, I explained that I remember something coming up about it and Kim explaining that it exists, but acoustically cancels, at least in the horizontal axis.

I'm refering to the fact that I wrote an e-mail to Kim Ryrie explaining why it DIDN'T
acoustically cancel; and I received a reply for Kim Ryrie that I was CORRECT - it
DOESN'T acoustically cancel. John Atkinson's measurements also reflect this.
If it "acoustically cancels"; how did JA's microphones pick it up?

I believe I posted Kim Ryrie's reply that I was correct in one of our previous discussions.

If you knew this as well as you think you do - then you'd be up to speed on this.

Quote:


You understand math, you just don't understand audio very well. Want to go over your incredible "half-wavelength" theory on proper placement of dipoles again, Mr Brainiac?

Audio is physics and physics can be expressed in terms of math.

The "half-wavelength" discussion is correct. If you had the mathematics background, you'd
understand that. If you've improved your mathematical acuity in the mean time, I can explain
it to you again.

Quote:


You didn't catch the flaw, it was already known and discussed long before our argument over how steep crossovers function.

I recall that at the time you were expounding as to how the Xd was "perfect" and that there
weren't any flaws - that I just didn't understand how they work.

Now you say that you, or at least somebody; knew about the flaws all the time.

Which is it?

BTW, I had a chance recently to hear the NHT Xd again in San Jose.
It exaggerated the size of the image of the female vocalist; that or somewhere on this planet
is a female vocalist with a 4 foot wide mouth. Dispersion for dispersion's sake is not a good
design principle; it must be tempered.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #98 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

John,

I'm refering to the fact that I wrote an e-mail to Kim Ryrie explaining why it DIDN'T
acoustically cancel; and I received a reply for Kim Ryrie that I was CORRECT - it
DOESN'T acoustically cancel. John Atkinson's measurements also reflect this.

He said it doesn't perfectly. This is obvious. However, as I have said repeatedly, it *largely* cancels. This is the case. As usual, you insert words into people's mouths, then claim they are incorrect. It's a unique version of shadow boxing. Your actual opponent doesn't exist except in your mind.
Quote:



I believe I posted Kim Ryrie's reply that I was correct in one of our previous discussions.

That it doesn't *completely* cancel is true. That it is mostly canceled in the horizontal domain where it counts is also true. A little bit of off axis (above and below the listening axis) ringing is no worse (and probably better) than off axis acoustic interference from shallow drivers. Therefore, as an objectionable artifact, it essentially is non-existent.
Quote:



Audio is physics and physics can be expressed in terms of math.

Can be, but it wouldn't work that well because we don't listen with two calculators and our brain isn't a computer. As usual, you forget psychacoustics in your mathematical "formulations".
Quote:



The "half-wavelength" discussion is correct. If you had the mathematics background, you'd
understand that. If you've improved your mathematical acuity in the mean time, I can explain
it to you again.

Only for setting the lowest useful frequency response of the system. But it *still* has nothing to do with how to place a speaker for best imaging. You're practicing bad science.
Quote:



I recall that at the time you were expounding as to how the Xd was "perfect" and that there
weren't any flaws - that I just didn't understand how they work.

When did I say the speakers were "perfect" or had no flaws?!? Again, you put wrong words in someone's mouth and then say "WRONG!!!" I said no such thing. A big step *towards* perfection? Yes. Yes they are.
Quote:



Now you say that you, or at least somebody; knew about the flaws all the time.
Which is it?

Since I never said the speakers were flawless or perfect..........
Quote:



BTW, I had a chance recently to hear the NHT Xd again in San Jose.
It exaggerated the size of the image of the female vocalist; that or somewhere on this planet
is a female vocalist with a 4 foot wide mouth. Dispersion for dispersion's sake is not a good
design principle; it must be tempered.

That's why they make......room treatment. I don't have that problem at all. You can put a heavily flawed speaker in a flawed room and spend tens of $thousands on amps and cabling or you can put a more idealized speaker in a flawed room and then work on fixing the room. We're doing room treatment for a $40K Meridian/Xd system and it is only going to cost about $1000. And, yes, it will image beautifully when I'm done.

John
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post #99 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Can be, but it wouldn't work that well because we don't listen with two calculators and our brain isn't a computer. As usual, you forget psychacoustics in your mathematical "formulations".

John,

The pressure waves in the room are what can be described mathematically.

We don't hear with calculators - but that calculator can be used to figure out what the
pressure wll be that our ears sense. If the laws of physics tell you the pressure has to be
a certain value - then that's what our ears will sense - and psychoacoustics is downstream
of that.

Quote:


When did I say the speakers were "perfect" or had no flaws?!? Again, you put wrong words in someone's mouth and then say "WRONG!!!" I said no such thing. A big step *towards* perfection? Yes. Yes they are.

Since I never said the speakers were flawless or perfect..........

Oh BROTHER!!! After the NHT / Wilson "shootout" at OB's house, I explained how I heard the
Xds "botch" the sound of the cymbals - that the Wilson X-2 handled flawlessly; and you kept
saying that the way the Xd reproduced it was what HAD to be on the recording.

For months we heard how Stereophile was going to review the Xd and proclaim them the best
speaker by far. Then when Kal Rubinson actually did the review, he rated the B&W 802D
better at "eerie recognition". You claimed the Xd would beat the Wilson X-2 and Wilson Maxx 2;
and it couldn't better the B&W 802D.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #100 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 01:29 PM
 
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The two of you just crack me up
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post #101 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

The two of you just crack me up

OB,

Yes - I'm outta here!

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #102 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

John,

The pressure waves in the room are what can be described mathematically.

We don't hear with calculators - but that calculator can be used to figure out what the
pressure wll be that our ears sense. If the laws of physics tell you the pressure has to be
a certain value - then that's what our ears will sense - and psychoacoustics is downstream
of that.

We weren't speaking about setting up bass response at the time.
Quote:





Oh BROTHER!!! After the NHT / Wilson "shootout" at OB's house, I explained how I heard the
Xds "botch" the sound of the cymbals - that the Wilson X-2 handled flawlessly; and you kept
saying that the way the Xd reproduced it was what HAD to be on the recording.

Ah, now who is using the term "flawless"?!? If the tweeter on the X2 is anything like that of the Maxx 2, it measures far worse than the tweeter on Xd, which is +/- about 1dB between 2kHz and 10kHz. The response of the Maxx 2 in that area is 2-3 times as inaccurate. Morever, the Xd, by design, has better off axis dispersion, so it isn't finicky like the Wilsons. You have a funny definition of "flawless" which, in your dictionary, apparently means "whatever OB's system does".
Quote:



For months we heard how Stereophile was going to review the Xd and proclaim them the best
speaker by far.

No, I said that would almost certainly not happen because if they did that, it would *wreck* the high-end industry as we know it by validating a less expensive option as objectively superior.
Quote:



Then when Kal Rubinson actually did the review, he rated the B&W 802D
better at "eerie recognition". You claimed the Xd would beat the Wilson X-2 and Wilson Maxx 2;
and it couldn't better the B&W 802D.

Eerie Recognition is an interesting attribute for a speaker. What Kal refused to offer up was the many ways in which the Xds outperformed the B&Ws - sweetspot, soundstaging, resolution, midrange/treble accuracy, bass accuracy/precision. I have repeatedly said that the Xd system would measure better in dispersion and accuracy than either the B&Ws or the Wilsons. Any and all of them. This remains true. I never said that biased reviewers who always "prefer" the more expensive products would *like* the sound of Xd better. But it does follow with your modus operandi of putting words in people's mouths. I hear Atlanta is looking for a new DA.

John
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post #103 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

What Kal refused to offer up was the many ways in which the Xds outperformed the B&Ws - sweetspot, soundstaging, resolution, midrange/treble accuracy, bass accuracy/precision...

John,

ROTFLMAO - I just had to respond to this.

When a reviewer like Kal doesn't heap praise on your Xd and prefers something else, John says,

"What Kal refused to offer up was ..."

Perhaps he "refused to offer up" because he didn't find it to be true.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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John--for a guy who profers to be the worlds biggest Xd salesman I simply don't know how you can say that when all you do is sit and crank out post after post here as welll as on other forums. No wonder your wife left you.

When do you ever get time to rub one out?
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post #105 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

Yes - I'm outta here!

Typical Morbius. Make a series of false accusations and then run.

John
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post #106 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

We weren't speaking about setting up bass response at the time.

John,

Right - we were talking about the full spectrum.

We can prevent bass cancellation with the front wall spacing; and a
little "toe-in" will send the back-wave treble off into the sides of the room,
so that one doesn't perceive an "early reflection".

Quote:


No, I said that would almost certainly not happen because if they did that, it would *wreck* the high-end industry as we know it by validating a less expensive option as objectively superior.

Yes - it's all a big conspiracy to prevent the Xd from taking its rightful place as the "perfect"
speaker / product.

Talk about Fantasies!

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #107 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

It exaggerated the size of the image of the female vocalist; that or somewhere on this planet
is a female vocalist with a 4 foot wide mouth.

I just had to repeat this line! Outside the world of music reproduction, the imagery and connotations are, well....
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post #108 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

We can prevent bass cancellation with the front wall spacing

Um, no, that would be entirely incorrect, genius.
Quote:



and a
little "toe-in" will send the back-wave treble off into the sides of the room,
so that one doesn't perceive an "early reflection".

And that would also be almost entirely incorrect. That might work with a laser beam, but not with sound. Reduce? A little.
Quote:



Yes - it's all a big conspiracy to prevent the Xd from taking its rightful place as the "perfect"
speaker / product.

No, it's business as usual. The rule is that you never compare products of the same price, you compare to a more expensive product, proclaim the more expensive product to be "better", but the affordable product is a good value. Kal knows what Xds do better, but it's bad form to state that an affordable product does anything better. Unfortunately, Xd is more than just a good value, it's ground-breaking and measures as such. Whether you like it or not is of no consequence, though I do note that you keep going back to listen

If you want to read an intellectually honest review of Xd, read The $ensible Sound article.

John
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post #109 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Party View Post

I just had to repeat this line! Outside the world of music reproduction, the imagery and connotations are, well....

Sounds like the perfect date for Morbius to go with his 4' wide ego

John
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John...has anyone ever told you that you are trying to stuff a dew worm up a wild cat's ass??

Is your store vacant today or have you just sold to everyone in New Mexico that there is nothing left for you to do
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post #111 of 120 Old 01-13-2007, 04:53 PM
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I talked to about 15 people and sold about $4K today between sparring with Morbius, actually. Not bad for a mellow Saturday.

As for dew worms, Morbius is putting words in my mouth and in Kim Ryrie's mouth. Not surprising since he's in Nancy Pelosi's district. Pretty lame tactic to accuse people of saying things they never said.

John
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post #112 of 120 Old 01-14-2007, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I Not surprising since he's in Nancy Pelosi's district.

John,

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG - a thousand times WRONG!!!!

True to form, you can't even read the Congressional map!

Nancy Pelosi is NOT my Congressional Representative.
Her district is on the other side of the Bay.

Livermore is in California's 10th District represented by Ellen Tauscher:

http://www.house.gov/tauscher/

http://www.house.gov/tauscher/district.shtm

Here's a map of California's 10th District served by Ellen Tauscher:

http://www.house.gov/tauscher/maps.shtml

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #113 of 120 Old 01-14-2007, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

John,

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG - a thousand times WRONG!!!!

Ummmm, fine, but I think that was "one time wrong". Learn to count, Mr Math.
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Livermore is in California's 10th District represented by Ellen Tauscher:

Wow. Big difference

The point remains whether it's Tauscher or Pelosi. Same difference.

John
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post #114 of 120 Old 01-14-2007, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

:
The point remains whether it's Tausher or Pelosi. Same difference.

John,

WRONG again!!!

Why don't you do a little research before you expound on anything?

In fact, I've heard from collegues at work who brief the Senators, Representatives,
and their staffers on Laboratory programs that Tauscher and Pelosi are on opposite
sides of the fence on most issues.

Pelosi is liberal; and Tauscher is conservative; one of the "Blue Dog Democrats".
She used to work on Wall Street and became one of the first women to hold a seat
on the New York Stock Exchange:

http://www.house.gov/tauscher/biography.shtml

For example, Tauscher is a big supporter of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory,
and Sandia National Laboratory - Livermore. In fact Tauscher often states that she is
the only Representative that has 2 national laboratories in their district. She has been
a big supporter of the National Ignition Facility at Livermore.

Pelosi, on the other hand; thinks these facilities are evil incarnate. She's a San Francisco
liberal.

One would be hard-pressed to find Congressional Representatives more different than
Tauscher and Pelosi.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

WRONG again!!!

No, not wrong. My point (learn to read, please) is that you put words in people's mouths and then say "wrong!" so it makes them *seem* like they're wrong. This is a typical political tactic, such as the "imminent threat" mantra used against the President. Most politicians seem to use this, Pelosi comes to mind, but either way, it doesn't make you any less guilty of doing the very same thing *no matter who you congress woman is*. Get it yet Mr Intellectual Dishonesty?!?

John
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post #116 of 120 Old 01-14-2007, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

No, not wrong. My point (learn to read, please) is that you put words in people's mouths and then say "wrong!" so it makes them *seem* like they're wrong. This is a typical political tactic, such as the "imminent threat" mantra used against the President. Most politicians seem to use this, Pelosi comes to mind, but either way, it doesn't make you any less guilty of doing the very same thing *no matter who you congress woman is*. Get it yet Mr Intellectual Dishonesty?!?

John,

I can read!!! You said, "The point remains whether it's Tausher or Pelosi. Same difference."

You ascribe a trait of intellectual dishonesty that you've noted in Pelosi when you state
"Pelosi comes to mind,". However, have you ever noted that trait in Tauscher?

If not - then why are they "Same difference"?

Honestly, I've never encountered a more muddle-headed "thinker" than you!!!

No wonder nobody can communicate with you.

What certain members of the U.S. House of Representatives have to do with audio, I don't know
beyond John's feeble attempts to tar the citizens of a given Congressional District with the
traits he's noted in the Representative for that district.

As Randy stated above; you're a lost cause!!!!

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #117 of 120 Old 01-14-2007, 03:56 PM
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Looks like all one has to do to have this sparring going is to use the word "Xd".. John would jump in and Greg would retort..


From the Lamm Picture to these Alimentall/Morbius exchanges , is there a better definition for OT

Greg and John: Please drop it.. Do not give more fuel to an inane debate. This is way beneath both of you

Frantz
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post #118 of 120 Old 01-14-2007, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Greg and John: Please drop it.. Do not give more fuel to an inane debate.

Frantz,

Sure.

Quote:


This is way beneath both of you

... and THAT'S saying something!

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #119 of 120 Old 01-14-2007, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius View Post

John,

I can read!!! You said, "The point remains whether it's Tausher or Pelosi. Same difference."

I meant basically "close enough to make the point". You use cheap political tactics. Most of them do it, therefore "same difference". You were trying to escape my point by obsessing about something largely inconsequential to what I was stating.

John
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post #120 of 120 Old 01-14-2007, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Greg and John: Please drop it.. Do not give more fuel to an inane debate. This is way beneath both of you

Hey, I can go high or low!

John
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