My Client's impressions of the Rotary sub demo. - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 406 Old 04-14-2007, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Bruce knows about the dimensions but it may be necessary to slide down the 4 eqitechs to gain 4-5 inches. Let's see what he has to say.
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post #302 of 406 Old 04-14-2007, 06:39 AM
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I could move the top two Equitech's without much of a problem.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #303 of 406 Old 04-14-2007, 06:57 AM
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Jeff, Could you start your own thread on this problem solving , design and and ultimately the building of your TRW set up ? I think it would be a great resource.

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post #304 of 406 Old 04-14-2007, 07:45 AM
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Will do Art.

I may have found my way to do it!

I'll get some pix and show.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #305 of 406 Old 04-14-2007, 11:50 AM
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Anyone who thinks there's no infrasonic information on current DVDs needs to find and read the 3-part reviews/tests of subwoofers done by Keith Yates and published in 'stereoplile ULTIMATE AV', issues June, July/Aug., and October 2004. I don't know if 'stereophile' has made it available on the website; if not, perhaps a bunch of you should ask that they do.

DVDs he used were 'U-571', 'Black Hawk Down', and 'Pearl Harbor'; he also used the 'Jurassic Lunch' cut of Telarc's 'Great Fantasy Adventure' CD.

Yates summarised his findings in one column; I'll send an image of that to anyone who e-mails me at jeffreybehr(at)cox(dot)net.

The winner was the Genelec HTS6; IIRC its price was $13K in 2004.

http://www.genelec-ht.com/products/hts6/hts6.php

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post #306 of 406 Old 04-14-2007, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreybehr View Post

Anyone who thinks there's no infrasonic information on current DVDs needs to find and read the 3-part reviews/tests of subwoofers done by Keith Yates and published in 'stereoplile ULTIMATE AV', ..

Jeffrey,

Keith Yates was in attendance at the demo of the Thigpen Rotary Woofer [ TRW ] at tzucc's
theater.

When this demo was done, Bruce Thigpen had a spectrum analyzer running on a laptop
computer, and connected to a microphone in the room.

As we played DVDs and "heard" and felt the subsonic content; we could also see the effect
of the subsonics registering on the spectrum analyzer. We could see what frequencies were
present and their absolute and relative magnitudes.

It's not surprising that DVDs have infrasonic content. Movie soundtracks have infrasonic
content, as many commercial movie theaters have infrasonic subwoofers, usually
"bass cannons", which are long Helmholtz radiators; behind the screens.

Rather than go through the effort of filtering the infrasonics from the movie soundtrack when
the DVD is mastered; the mastering engineer just writes the full spectrum of the movie soundtrack
to the DVD.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #307 of 406 Old 04-14-2007, 01:25 PM
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Mark,

"I think you are on track, but have a few of the behaviors reversed. The blades rotate at a constant speed, and the spider that centers the coil is plenty linear for its range of use. From this I think it's safe to consider the system to in fact have a relatively constant compliance WRT frequency (Cms in T/S terms)."

But those are the characteristics of the modulator, not the fan which is the source of the acoustic output.

"The TRW does not have infinite X-max..."

If the blades just stay pitched, the fan will produce a constant flux of air, though now I'm not sure DC airflow equates to DC acoustic output, if that's even defined.

"4 fans could crack walls"

Hmm. Fans have very low pressure capacity, so paralleling them might just cause more "slippage", not being positive displacement devices.

Noah
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post #308 of 406 Old 04-14-2007, 01:57 PM
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when the system is running and not even at top levels, the walls move. they could easily make them move much more. that could cause cracking.

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post #309 of 406 Old 04-14-2007, 04:49 PM
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Very possible, I'm just saying it's likely that the acoustic pressure doesn;t increase linearly with addition of more TRW's.

Noah
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post #310 of 406 Old 04-15-2007, 09:04 AM
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Jeff,

It's hard for me to follow what is going on with your pics. I'll try to spend more time and assemble an integrated image in my head of your house architecture.

But here are some things we learned in our install:
- forget tubing for the front or backside vent. Just delete this from your list. The TRW wants a square or nearly square aperture for the front and back side openings. In other words, 25 sq ft of narrow opening is very inferior to 25sq ft of square opening. My opening is about 2.something feet by 10 feet and Bruce feels it turns out to be less efficient than he had hoped for. Still kicks butt, but that's why he wanted to put two fans in... just in case the less than square aperture decreased efficiency. SO - you want a very open aperture directly to your room, with one 90 degree turn to absorb HF and MF and a very open aperture to your back vent.
- openings to additional backvent must be quite large in square-ish aperture as well.
My backventing goes to a volume 1/6th of the theatre, i.e. my bathroom and a 2nd attached small room. We made provisions to open the whole garage above as addtl vent space via an aperture in the garage floor/bathroom ceiling of about 6sq ft. It did absolutely nothing. The opening was too small. Strange.... you'd figure that air pressure changes would efficiently move through a 6sqft aperture... but the frequency response plots said no difference when we plugged that up and didn't plug it up.

My recommendation is to make sure you have the following, and if you do, you will finally be satiated in your quest for new bass extension:
1) 90 degree turn from fan into your room.
2) the aperture of the front side into your room, from the fan plate to the wall opening, should be kept constant and large and squarish.... Bruce can tell you what sq ft'age of this column you'd need.
3) this front side distance from fan to opening, via the 90 deg turn, needs to be no longer than a certain distance that BRuce can provide... I am going to say like 6 feet is ideal
4) the rear volume should similarly have a very easy time breathing through a straight shot of a square like short distance pathway. I have a 90 degree pathway using two separate vents into my small room and bath respectively. More specifically, the TRW's vent into a small crawlspace between my bathroom/room ceiling and the garage floor, and then I cut further vents into the ceiling (behind the fans of course) to vent into the bath/room areas with little 'resistance'.
5) I would not bend over backwards to get an infinite baffle. It seems that my much less than theoretically ideal back vent space produces reasonable additional spectrum and SPL to the XS and the Dogs.

Hope this helps.

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post #311 of 406 Old 04-15-2007, 02:59 PM
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"forget tubing for the front or backside vent. Just delete this from your list. The TRW wants a square or nearly square aperture for the front and back side openings. In other words, 25 sq ft of narrow opening is very inferior to 25sq ft of square opening."

I can't think of any technical reason why this would be true. And for the same crosssection area, a round section has less surface area/viscous flow losses, and is intrinsically much much stiffer and will flex less from the pressure pulses.

I think there must have been an unaccounted for implementation issue.

Noah
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post #312 of 406 Old 04-15-2007, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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No Noah Bruce is ademant about this and it's Aspect Ratio. He hit me over the head witht the aspect ratio several times until I had to find a way to comply.
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post #313 of 406 Old 04-15-2007, 04:09 PM
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Peter, From what you and tzucc describe, it sounds like he was adamant about not having an opening that has a significant aspect ratio in one dimension vs the other. Round vs. square shouldn't be a problem.

tzucc,

Was that opening to the garage 6 feet square, or 6 square feet?

Also, I recall Bruce talking about typically wanting at least 2, if not 3, turns/folds in the manifold to acoustically low pass radiated noise. I may be wrong, but I recall more than a few of the demo setups having pathways much longer than 6'.

From my brief exposure and talking with Bruce, my feeling that many options can be made to work with attention to specific details. Since Bruce's company builds and installs each TRW, I suspect there is some room for adjustment and adaptation if conditions are known ahead of time. The main question I see for Jeff's case is if the cross-sectional area can be large enough to deliver sufficient performance without causing other problems. I suspect it can work, but Bruce is of course the one who has to make that call.

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post #314 of 406 Old 04-15-2007, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I can't think of any technical reason why this would be true. And for the same crosssection area, a round section has less surface area/viscous flow losses, and is intrinsically much much stiffer and will flex less from the pressure pulses.

Maybe because you're not technical enough. A large enough circle cross section is fine... obviously no one is suggesting it has to be 90 degree angles, but think about it... can you easily make a 25 sq ft circular opening, easier than a rectangular opening? My construction techniques say making a square is easier than a circle.

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post #315 of 406 Old 04-15-2007, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Peter, From what you and tzucc describe, it sounds like he was adamant about not having an opening that has a significant aspect ratio in one dimension vs the other. Round vs. square shouldn't be a problem.

tzucc,

Was that opening to the garage 6 feet square, or 6 square feet?

Also, I recall Bruce talking about typically wanting at least 2, if not 3, turns/folds in the manifold to acoustically low pass radiated noise. I may be wrong, but I recall more than a few of the demo setups having pathways much longer than 6'.

From my brief exposure and talking with Bruce, my feeling that many options can be made to work with attention to specific details. Since Bruce's company builds and installs each TRW, I suspect there is some room for adjustment and adaptation if conditions are known ahead of time. The main question I see for Jeff's case is if the cross-sectional area can be large enough to deliver sufficient performance without causing other problems. I suspect it can work, but Bruce is of course the one who has to make that call.

the two CES demo's Bruce's home attic install are about 6-8'. I have not seen any demo setup that is much longer than 6'. That doesn't mean it can't work... I do know Bruce has said that too long a path of any aspect ratio is not good either for efficiency.

My opening to the garage was about 6 sq ft total, but broken up in two pieces. The aspect ratio wasn't bad, it's just not enough cross section to make any usable difference.

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post #316 of 406 Old 04-15-2007, 04:56 PM
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6 sq.ft. makes sense that there wasn't much gain. At those frequencies and the size of the rear "room" an opening that size behaves somewhat like a large leak or a port who's output isn't used rather than a pathway to more open space. It probably does provide worthwhile help in relieving the pressure on the bathroom's walls and door!

You can model up the rear space as a lossy ported box and guestimate the "tuning frequency" of the opening. To work as an open pathway, you need the tuning frequency well above the operating range of the device.

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post #317 of 406 Old 04-15-2007, 06:56 PM
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A better word for me to have used would be theoretical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tzucc View Post

Maybe because you're not technical enough. A large enough circle cross section is fine... obviously no one is suggesting it has to be 90 degree angles, but think about it... can you easily make a 25 sq ft circular opening, easier than a rectangular opening? My construction techniques say making a square is easier than a circle.


Noah
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post #318 of 406 Old 04-15-2007, 07:02 PM
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Noah,

A rotary woofers output sums and behaves much like a cone woofer. Adding
a second unit increases output by 6dB. Another interesting aspect is
horsepower. The current model is 1/3 horsepower. We have proved that upping
the power 10 times to 3 horsepower increases the output by 10dB. This
behavior is similar to a conventional loudspeaker. For the rotary woofer, given
enough horsepower, the acoustic output limit is very high but is difficult to
realize without sacrificing signal to noise ratio. In other words as you rotate the
blades faster, the maximum SPL limit goes up, but the generated noise also
goes up.
In terms of "slippage", it is the cone that slips at lower frequencies where the
cone velocity is very low relative to the velocity of sound. Pressure does not
want to build up in front of the cone, it simply slips aside.
We find very little compression in operation until the blades stall, at that point
the output dies quickly which is a ugly form of distortion. In an installation you
run the blades as slow as possible for the best signal to noise ratio with an
acceptable maximum SPL without stalling. The maximum is usually between
115 and 122dB between 1-20 Hz in most rooms. The 19 inch rotor is spinning
between 680 and 750 rpm. We try to pitch the blades to about plus or minus 45
degrees at the maximum.
Depending on blade geometry and blade chord relative to the pitch axis we
can expand or compress the audio signal. There are many nonlinearities, in the
speed range we run pressure is roughly proportional to the square of rpm so
the output goes up quickly is the rotational speed increases. Note that the
torque load also goes up and you run out of horsepower before the blades stall.
You are correct that a round opening would be best into a room, it is just not
practical to construct a round manifold in most installations. We want the
manifold to have the smallest pressure drop yet absorb the high frequency
random noise which is a product of the rotation of the blades.
In some respects the device is close to an acoustic transistor as you had
suggested earlier. Thanks very much for the comments.

brucet
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post #319 of 406 Old 04-15-2007, 11:40 PM
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Bruce,

"A rotary woofers output sums and behaves much like a cone woofer. Adding
a second unit increases output by 6dB. Another interesting aspect is
horsepower. The current model is 1/3 horsepower. We have proved that upping
the power 10 times to 3 horsepower increases the output by 10dB. This
behavior is similar to a conventional loudspeaker. "

It sure is; I stand corrected.

"In terms of "slippage", it is the cone that slips at lower frequencies where the
cone velocity is very low relative to the velocity of sound. Pressure does not
want to build up in front of the cone, it simply slips aside. "

I was speaking in terms of air volume displacement, but I see your point about acoustic output.

Very interesting further explanation of the TRW operation, thanks.

"it is just not practical to construct a round manifold in most installations."

Sonotube is available up to 5 ft dia, but that falls a bit short at 19.6 sq ft.

I guess square is good for the additional area for sound absorption.

And thanks for the thanks

Noah
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post #320 of 406 Old 04-16-2007, 05:53 PM
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Brucet,
If you had a long digital delay of the audio signal (say 10 seconds)
You could anticipate the upcoming demands on the sub-woofer and adjust the rotor RPM to accommodate.

Kevin
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post #321 of 406 Old 05-02-2007, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Since this house's interior design is NeoClassical and I did not feel like forcing this particular client (as I normally do) to do a contemporary design (regardless of the House motiff and his wife's wants), we brought in our old friends (of 18 years) First Impressions to collaborate in the design/implementation, along with the architect Zeb Jarosz and interior designer Austin Harrelson .

Working with Jeff Smith is very stimulating as well as personally satisfying to see how his style has refined itself over the years and the amazing accumumulation of tools of the trade/specialized contraptions, multistation cad staff , fully staffed Cabinet shop, staging areas, upholstery "sweat shop" and a cornucopia of inventive Home Theater resources he has accumulated in his 30,000 Square Foot home theater design showroom Global Command Center in North Miami.

www.cineloungers.com

2 weeks ago I got an email from Jeff saying:

"I've figured a way to cut into the backs of the front row seats so we can also blow up air up the asses of the people seating on the front row."

[PETER >>>NOTE TO SELF: Need to stop showing this picture to everyone.]


How could I resist such a stimulating proposal? So we ran the idea by Bruce.

This is one of many sketches and 1st Imprs. Shop Drawings used to run the design by Bruce:

.

Although initially Bruce thought it could work, he later sent this drawing eliminating the front row vents.



It is taking awhile to get the perfect design , but we are almost there.
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post #322 of 406 Old 05-03-2007, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucet View Post

You are correct that a round opening would be best into a room, it is just not
practical to construct a round manifold in most installations. We want the
manifold to have the smallest pressure drop yet absorb the high frequency
random noise which is a product of the rotation of the blades.

Bruce,

I believe you are correct that it is not critical to have a shroud or manifold around the fan.

I think many are thinking that annulus just outside the outermost blade tips would be a
region where the air would flow counter to the direction the blades were forcing the air.

However, such a hypothesis means that there would be a flow shear at the outer blade
tips. The air just inside the blade tips would go one direction as forced by the blades, and
the air just outside the blades would flow in the opposite direction since it would not be
propelled by the blades and the ambient pressure would force this counter flow.

However, fluids don't "like" to have a shear in their velocity field. Such a flow is
would be Kelvin-Helmholtz unstable. That is, if that flow pattern ever did develop,
it would very quickly degenerate into turbulence. It's very tricky to get a "stable" flow shear.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #323 of 406 Old 05-04-2007, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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We got this tonight. The TRW has to be evenly centered on the mainifold opening.
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post #324 of 406 Old 05-06-2007, 02:04 PM
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Peter,
I am glad to see you are implementing the TRW. It looks like it will be a nice install.

Did you attend the JL Audio factory tour a couple of weeks ago that AVS put together?

My new favorite game is Save The Titanic

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post #325 of 406 Old 05-06-2007, 03:05 PM
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Hi

I hope to "hear" (feel could be a better term), the TRW soon.. it is a pretty unique piece. The only infrasonics transducer commercially available. I wonder what it adds to pure music reproduction.
Congrats Peter!

Frantz
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post #326 of 406 Old 05-06-2007, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. Yes it is exciting but a prime example of the saying: "be careful what you ask for..." the amount of detail in the project is overwhelming. Lot's of new technology coming to market within the next 6 months will be implemented, with deliverables affecting many critical paths. The projector is the sickest piece of gear but there is very little info available so engineering it's pill-box porthole, balanced power( nema connector type?) , heat exhaust, and mounting is all being flown by the seat of the pants (during development) .

The client wanted to shoot a rocket to the moon,well... it launched all right. I am comfortable the plot will get us there, the trick will be controlling the crash as best possible. These "Experimental Prototype Home Theater Of Tomorrow" projects are one fairly large sized , protracted, calculated risk. It is simultaneously nerve-wrecking and comforting.
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post #327 of 406 Old 05-06-2007, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Eric I did not go to the JL lab demo, but I would consider it for the next project due in spring, with the Torus and the d-box but no TRW.
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post #328 of 406 Old 05-08-2007, 07:26 AM
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Peter very cool. Why no TRW in your next project? What home theatre is complete without it, unless the design constraints prohibit it for some reason?

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post #329 of 406 Old 05-08-2007, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Space constraint for back wave, just not there.
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post #330 of 406 Old 05-11-2007, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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