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post #91 of 6521 Old 03-29-2007, 06:18 PM
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Concerts are not encoded. You just put it in Audio mode and feel the beat.

Phil
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post #92 of 6521 Old 03-29-2007, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

Concerts are not encoded. You just put it in Audio mode and feel the beat.

Really, hmmm... I wonder why. What was mentioned previously is that you can code for specifc kinds of sounds to bring the experience to life. If gun shots, why not bass guitar or kick drum? It's probably a lot of work to do a whole concert and that's the reason they avoid it. If that's the case, charge for it as a premium feature. I wonder if they have ever tried it.

At any rate, how do you find Dbox in audio mode for concerts? Does it add to the experience in a compelling way or is it distracting? Comparison vs Crowson or BK?
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post #93 of 6521 Old 03-29-2007, 07:03 PM
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I have never tried Crowson, or BK, and I am not a big concert watcher. I have a huge collection, but it seems like I am always watching movies instead. Generally, it is not so important to me to have the system on when watching a concert.

Phil
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post #94 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinetic boy View Post

HI, I'm really glad to see you are interested in D-Box technologie. I'm the lead kinetic artist at D-Box.
I will just explain some simple basis about motion and vibrations. I'm Not trying to sell you the system but just lay some actual facts.
...... We have a Really wide possibilities of textures that makes other system feel like the same over and over.

...... Well all this to say that the limited frequency range is not an issue at all. You will get way more with d-box than with any other system. And it's the ONLY system that MOVES (up to 1 1/2 inch) and not only shakes

Thanks for that... I completely agree with you, and this is why I don't understand the need for >100Hz. I think there will be other factors that will affect your experience more than being able to transmit 500Hz.

I have the platform, I think it's awesome, the more and more I watch, the more and more impressed I am with what you coders are capable of doing. I've tried to explain to everyone, buttkickers have nothing on what you are able to create, I think your coding is an art in itself.

My only suggestion would be to have two different levels of coding. Perhaps an Extreme mode where you code more information for more of an action ride sort of experience. And then the regular mode you have now. Personally I'd prefer more more more, but obviously this would not be for everyone and would also depend on your mood and the movie.

Also, as I said before, vibration isn't what's impressive, I actually couldn't really care all that much if it vibrated less, I think it vibrates plenty (more like a heavy duty massage chair actually.. sometimes feels like the stage or chair will breakdown), I really enjoy the movement, I say focus more on this. That example of feeling like floating is a really good one, I enjoy that also.

Well done kinetics team

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post #95 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 05:26 AM
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Gino the next step would be to have a single chair with the actuators built in if you want more motion there is also a feature in the controller that allow you to reduce the vibration and keep the motion to the top the menu is called Motion/Vibration if you are interested...

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Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

Thanks for that... I completely agree with you, and this is why I don't understand the need for >100Hz. I think there will be other factors that will affect your experience more than being able to transmit 500Hz.

I have the platform, I think it's awesome, the more and more I watch, the more and more impressed I am with what you coders are capable of doing. I've tried to explain to everyone, buttkickers have nothing on what you are able to create, I think your coding is an art in itself.

My only suggestion would be to have two different levels of coding. Perhaps an Extreme mode where you code more information for more of an action ride sort of experience. And then the regular mode you have now. Personally I'd prefer more more more, but obviously this would not be for everyone and would also depend on your mood and the movie.

Also, as I said before, vibration isn't what's impressive, I actually couldn't really care all that much if it vibrated less, I think it vibrates plenty (more like a heavy duty massage chair actually.. sometimes feels like the stage or chair will breakdown), I really enjoy the movement, I say focus more on this. That example of feeling like floating is a really good one, I enjoy that also.

Well done kinetics team

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post #96 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 05:31 AM
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We could code them no problem... it's just that the experience is way better in a movie and we have more than we can code.

The D-Box is simply a more powerful shaker in the audio mode.
(what health nut was refering to would apply for the audio mode)

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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post

Really, hmmm... I wonder why. What was mentioned previously is that you can code for specifc kinds of sounds to bring the experience to life. If gun shots, why not bass guitar or kick drum? It's probably a lot of work to do a whole concert and that's the reason they avoid it. If that's the case, charge for it as a premium feature. I wonder if they have ever tried it.

At any rate, how do you find Dbox in audio mode for concerts? Does it add to the experience in a compelling way or is it distracting? Comparison vs Crowson or BK?

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post #97 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 05:40 AM
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[quote=Thunder]Wil Dbox be integrated with Crowson any time soon. This is a stop gap for me as I will purchase a full DBox solution at some point FOR SURE. Still undecided as to whether to go for a custom platform or 3 chairs.



I'm not saying anymore time frame... it's been delayed already so... is soon good enough for you? hehehe



Yannick, is there a demo room in Montreal to test both the platform and chair? DO I need to book an appointment?



We only have the chair at the office, but we have a dealer in toronto well Richmond called audio excellence you could try it there... If you want to come and visit let me know I'll show you around



Other question is, how effective is Dbox for concerts. How do you guys program for that kind of material? I assume that bass guitar and drums are the main focus. This is just as important to me as movies.



It's a more powerfull shaker (very similar though, working of the LFE channel).
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post #98 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 06:00 AM
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HI, we did try to code music concert but it was way to much work.
We do music in movies (bass, bass drum etc.) but for a whole show, it would be really long ans our clients are waiting for new movies
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post #99 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YannickG View Post

Gino the next step would be to have a single chair with the actuators built in if you want more motion

Yes... will be investigating this a little more down the track. I'm curious though, D-box has a gaming chair, will this sort of motion be available for the platform or the other chairs, or just the gaming one?

Do you have plans to be able to produce > 2 G's?

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post #100 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 07:16 AM
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Same technology (actuators) can be used in both. Only the PC interface will differ so for a minor investement you will be able to enjoy both...
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post #101 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 08:07 AM
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Do you have plans to be able to produce > 2 G's?[/quote]

We actually do at the moment but for such a short period of time... plus you need a hard scene to experience it...
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post #102 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YannickG View Post

Same technology (actuators) can be used in both. Only the PC interface will differ so for a minor investement you will be able to enjoy both...

PC interface? so is the gaming only for PC gaming, or can this be used with Xbox360 or PS3 with another standalone controller?

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Originally Posted by YannickG View Post

We actually do at the moment but for such a short period of time... plus you need a hard scene to experience it...

Can you clarify, you have plans or you already can do > 2 G's? Will this involve an upgrade to the actuators?

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post #103 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 09:37 AM
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Yannick, local retailer does not have the platform, only the chair as I understand it. I'm surprised that you guys don't have a complete set up at head office - a reference center.

Even though the chairs have more range, I kind of like the platform concept because your feet are also in the action. Isn't that a more realistic sensation versus only having part of you connected the physical sensations? I noticed that in the Widescreen review from last month, they chose the platform option for their reference HT as opposed to 3 chairs. Did you speak to Gary about this implementation and his rationale?
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post #104 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 11:37 AM
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Hi to all D-Box owners,
I´m one of the few german D-Box owners in good old europe. I know here are some real pro´s who own both Systems (Odyssee platform and Quest Chair) like Mr.Poindexter and maybe someone can give me advice regarding the performance of a Quest X3me Loveseat 4 with actuator vs. a platform based Odyssee XL 4 Actuator System which I own.
Would a Quest X3me Loveseat a upgrade for me.
My platform is 67 x 39 inches.

Thank you very much in advance and best regards !
Christoph Summer
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post #105 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 12:49 PM
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It is very frustrating to clearly explain in such a straightforward manner to you Gino what the tactile sensatory system is capable of... I don't know how I can be anymore straightforward. As you know, the ears are capable of 20-20,000 Hz audio information. The vibrotactile systems of our body uses specialized nerve endings to sense vibratory information up to around 500 Hz. It is true that studies show that Blind people do enhance their vibrotactile capabilities up to almost 1kHz, but that is not the issue.

I don't know how more to simply put it to you that in real life we are sensing vibrations and tactile input in the range of 1-500 Hz. If our goal is to recreate reality and natural effects, you need to utilize the full range of our tactile sensation which is BASIC neurophysiology: there is no debate about this. If you understand that hearing uses 20-20,000 Hz in real life, why is it so hard for you to understand that tactile sensation uses 1-500 Hz in real life? I fail to understand how you cannot leave this to experts in the field who understand this and are working toward recreating virtual reality... If you need anymore help understanding, pleas let me know and I'll try to restate it another way.

D-BOX is doing an outstanding job, but, like anything, there is room for improvement. Again, just becasue D-Box is not capable of doing up to 400-500 Hz, is not a reason to say it is undesireable. Is it undesireable to be able to hear from 10,000 to 20,000 Hz? I think not... If you want to feel what you are feeling in real life, you must be capable of properly expressing the entire frequency range of the human tactile system which is unquestionably up to appoximately 500 Hz.

I've already discussed other factors such as attentuation of foam and furniture material, but those are entirely separate issues and nothing to do with the basic goals we seek.

Please do not say it is undesireable to feel above 100 Hz... this is the kind of stuff that needs to be stopped.

Again, on a positive note, keep up the great work!
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post #106 of 6521 Old 03-30-2007, 07:59 PM
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There is no need to explain, I got it the first time around. I can understand your basic neurophysiology. I am a dental surgeon, no need to be condescending.

My point was echoed by Kinetic Boy. What D-box does so well is the 3D motion, the vibration seems more of an adjunct to it, sometimes can be distracting already at 100Hz. But you are right, no need to say it is undesirable.

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post #107 of 6521 Old 03-31-2007, 02:36 AM
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What D-box does so well is the 3D motion, the vibration seems more of an adjunct to it, sometimes can be distracting already at 100Hz. But you are right, no need to say it is undesirable.

Yes essentially they are trying to cover 2 modalities, 3D motion at which they excell... and vibrotactile, which is what should be improved... Yes, if it is feeling undesreable, then the proper sensations are not beeing coded or conveyed... Ideally they would be able to improve upon the tactile function in the future...
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post #108 of 6521 Old 03-31-2007, 11:04 AM
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Even though the chairs have more range, I kind of like the platform concept because your feet are also in the action. Isn't that a more realistic sensation versus only having part of you connected the physical sensations? I noticed that in the Widescreen review from last month, they chose the platform option for their reference HT as opposed to 3 chairs. Did you speak to Gary about this implementation and his rationale?

This is a great question. Would also like to hear the answer.
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post #109 of 6521 Old 03-31-2007, 11:56 AM
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Get a reclining chair, get your feet off the ground and enjoy full body motion
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post #110 of 6521 Old 03-31-2007, 12:08 PM
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Kinetic Boy,

Can you explain us about the PCM tracks on BR discs not synching with the codes. Is there any fix to this or do we have to stick to the lossy codecs?

Yannick,

What about the D-Box Blu-Ray upgrade? Can you please give me the details by PM? Is this upgrade a physical board or something that needs to be installed in the controller or will I receive some kind of a software by e-mail?
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post #111 of 6521 Old 03-31-2007, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murat View Post

Get a reclining chair, get your feet off the ground and enjoy full body motion

That is what I do as well. I have the four platform actuators underneath my Lazyboy reclining love seats, and never have I wished they were under a platform.

Phil
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post #112 of 6521 Old 04-02-2007, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Murat View Post

Get a reclining chair, get your feet off the ground and enjoy full body motion


This is it!!! Of course if your feet are touching the ground while the chair is moving you around it's really disturbing. It's just a matter of preference (integrated chair vs plateform).

Thunder Audio excellence have a platform system, I was there a little while ago. We could always set up a platform here at the office, but our theatre only has Integrated actuators. It is not really a showroom, most of the people coming here are financial investors or potential partners. We refer customers to our dealers
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post #113 of 6521 Old 04-02-2007, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murat View Post

Kinetic Boy,

Can you explain us about the PCM tracks on BR discs not synching with the codes. Is there any fix to this or do we have to stick to the lossy codecs?

Yannick,

What about the D-Box Blu-Ray upgrade? Can you please give me the details by PM? Is this upgrade a physical board or something that needs to be installed in the controller or will I receive some kind of a software by e-mail?


We sent you the upgrade by e-mail but we got a delay message... we have tried again today, if you don't get it let me know...
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post #114 of 6521 Old 04-02-2007, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

It is very frustrating to clearly explain in such a straightforward manner to you Gino what the tactile sensatory system is capable of... I don't know how I can be anymore straightforward. As you know, the ears are capable of 20-20,000 Hz audio information. The vibrotactile systems of our body uses specialized nerve endings to sense vibratory information up to around 500 Hz. It is true that studies show that Blind people do enhance their vibrotactile capabilities up to almost 1kHz, but that is not the issue.

I don't know how more to simply put it to you that in real life we are sensing vibrations and tactile input in the range of 1-500 Hz. If our goal is to recreate reality and natural effects, you need to utilize the full range of our tactile sensation which is BASIC neurophysiology: there is no debate about this. If you understand that hearing uses 20-20,000 Hz in real life, why is it so hard for you to understand that tactile sensation uses 1-500 Hz in real life? I fail to understand how you cannot leave this to experts in the field who understand this and are working toward recreating virtual reality... If you need anymore help understanding, pleas let me know and I'll try to restate it another way.

D-BOX is doing an outstanding job, but, like anything, there is room for improvement. Again, just becasue D-Box is not capable of doing up to 400-500 Hz, is not a reason to say it is undesireable. Is it undesireable to be able to hear from 10,000 to 20,000 Hz? I think not... If you want to feel what you are feeling in real life, you must be capable of properly expressing the entire frequency range of the human tactile system which is unquestionably up to appoximately 500 Hz.

I've already discussed other factors such as attentuation of foam and furniture material, but those are entirely separate issues and nothing to do with the basic goals we seek.

Please do not say it is undesireable to feel above 100 Hz... this is the kind of stuff that needs to be stopped.

Again, on a positive note, keep up the great work!


Well let's put it this way... Theorically you are right tactile is from 1-500Hz. In our application we are doing entertainment, we have a lot of factor (like we mentionned) pitching in. What's the point of putting countless hours of coding for something you can't feel it's already taking anywhere from 20 to 300 hours for 1 movie.
Again since we create the track and it has nothing to do with the audio once finished we are comparing apple and oranges.
You are 100% right about 20 to 20kHZ for Audio but our case it is slightly different. Tactile transducer have to be able to do this range because all they do is working of the audio and they need specs to sell their product...
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post #115 of 6521 Old 04-02-2007, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlfaRomeo View Post

Hi to all D-Box owners,
I´m one of the few german D-Box owners in good old europe. I know here are some real pro´s who own both Systems (Odyssee platform and Quest Chair) like Mr.Poindexter and maybe someone can give me advice regarding the performance of a Quest X3me Loveseat 4 with actuator vs. a platform based Odyssee XL 4 Actuator System which I own.
Would a Quest X3me Loveseat a upgrade for me.
My platform is 67 x 39 inches.

Thank you very much in advance and best regards !
Christoph Summer


Hey Chris, it's good to see you!
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post #116 of 6521 Old 04-02-2007, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YannickG View Post

We sent you the upgrade by e-mail but we got a delay message... we have tried again today, if you don't get it let me know...

Oh... is this why my Bluray isn't working either? I didn't realise we needed to upgrade the controller.

I have sent you an email Yannick.

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post #117 of 6521 Old 04-02-2007, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlfaRomeo View Post

Hi to all D-Box owners,
I´m one of the few german D-Box owners in good old europe. I know here are some real pro´s who own both Systems (Odyssee platform and Quest Chair) like Mr.Poindexter and maybe someone can give me advice regarding the performance of a Quest X3me Loveseat 4 with actuator vs. a platform based Odyssee XL 4 Actuator System which I own.
Would a Quest X3me Loveseat a upgrade for me.
My platform is 67 x 39 inches.

Thank you very much in advance and best regards !
Christoph Summer

Christoph, I will be able to give some sort of comparison in a few months. I currently have the old 4 actuator system, although they are placed directly under the four legs of my love seats, instead of a platform, and I have 4 Quest love seats coming, in the next week or two.

So, If I can ever get my stupid house finished, (sorry Yannick ) one of those love seats is going to be an x3me model, and I am looking forward to seeing what the difference is. (I believe it is still only has 3 actuators though).

Phil
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post #118 of 6521 Old 04-02-2007, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Free View Post

Christoph, I will be able to give some sort of comparison in a few months. I currently have the old 4 actuator system, although they are placed directly under the four legs of my love seats, instead of a platform, and I have 4 Quest love seats coming, in the next week or two.

So, If I can ever get my stupid house finished, (sorry Yannick ) one of those love seats is going to be an x3me model, and I am looking forward to seeing what the difference is. (I believe it is still only has 3 actuators though).

Nope you get 4 actuators on your loveseat Phil and don't worry about the little delay it's not a big problem
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post #119 of 6521 Old 04-02-2007, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

Oh... is this why my Bluray isn't working either? I didn't realise we needed to upgrade the controller.

I have sent you an email Yannick.

I made the modification your are good to go... Just start live update.
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post #120 of 6521 Old 04-02-2007, 08:35 AM
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Again since we create the track and it has nothing to do with the audio once finished we are comparing apple and oranges.

First of all, audio has little to do with tactile, so perhaps you should address that fact. elements of sound can produce tactile, but they are different modalities. Tactile and vibratory information is received in special nerve endings in our skin. So of course tactile has nothing to do with audio.

Your product covers two modalities: motion and tactile, period. Saying "you create a discrete track has nothing to do with audio" has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Secondly, you DO use elements of the soundtrack to create your motion track and you DO analyze the waveforms in the soundtrack to derive your custom track, which is corrrectly PART of the process.

Quote:


You are 100% right about 20 to 20kHZ for Audio but our case it is slightly different. Tactile transducer have to be able to do this range because all they do is working of the audio and they need specs to sell their product...

This doesn't make sense at all. 1) Your case does not change human physiology. The human tactile system utilizes pacinian corpuscles in the skin which operate from approximately 1-500 Hz, this is fact. In real life we feel vibrations in this frequency range.

2) You say Tactile transducers have to work off of an audio track... Well this is the WEAKNESS of not having a discrete tactile track. That is my entire point for the last 7 years. There should be a custom tactile track. Nothing to do with sales, I don't care about sales, I only care about the truth and what best replicates real life. Yes, tactile transducers should also be running off of a disrete track which is why the leading tactile transducer companies also seek a discrete track from hollywood and are also in the process of trying to integrate with your coding system.

Again, you have a great product, the best overall in my opinion, but human physiology is human physiology and that is not up fpr debate, nor should be the design goals for both 3D motion as well as tactile.

Feeling up to 500 Hz is natural. I thnk it is wrong, terribly wrong for someone to say that it it is a disctraction to feel above 100 Hz. It simply means that your product has room for improvement. The design goal is to adequately cover the natural human range of vibratory sensation and that is 1-500 Hz. I will say it again: is it a distraction to hear above 5,000 Hz? Then why would it be a distraction to feel above 100 Hz? Your actuators are optomized for excursion, not frequency response. Like I said, if you could do 1.5 inch excursion and be able to have 500 Hz (or even 400 Hz) frequency response, I would consider that an improvement to adequately cover the human tactile range. Your encoder mentioned that foam in furniture absorbes higher frequency, well this is very true top some degree. There is *some degree* of attentuation of vibration with foam in furniture. This is all a part of the design process and something that Crowson addresses with manufacturers. Doesn't change the design *goals*.

The problem is that we should be discussing design goals here and what our our goals. Nothing to do with sales. Also tactile has nothing to do with audio since it uses skin receptors not the inner ear. A discrete tactile track would make the world of difference.

As I will say again, keep up the great work!
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