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post #181 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Art

Does it really suck? in other words is it bad in the absolute sense or as compared to YOUR CRT stack? How would you qualify the Low APL performance of the Sony Ruby for example so that I have a known reference?

Sony G90 = Excellent
JVC RS1 = Fair to Good
Ruby = Fair to Poor
HT 5000= Fair to Poor
Qualia/ HD2K/HD10K = Poor

Just picking some familiar devices for reference. There are holes in this however since there is a gigantic space between the RS1 and G90 and a pretty good one between the Ruby and RS1.

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post #182 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 07:55 AM
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Thank you for the responses...

The reason I asked about addressing the blacks is because the HT5000 is being portayed as the "absolute reference" and I believe it may be rightly so for high APL sources but not so much for low APL (possibly the RS1 would look better in low APL than the HT5000... I don't know; just asking).

It's all about tradeoffs... For low APL the crown seems to be in the CRT realm, while for high APL it is for 3DLP (to a lesser extent LCoS).

Art... I know this is sloppy territory; but given a particular selection of movies (i.e. yours) that have distinct APL scenes in them (some very low, some very high)... would you trade the WOW created by CRT black for the WOW created by the 3DLP whites?

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post #183 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 07:59 AM
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Alan Gouger
The industry might indeed squeeze current platforms to the last drop of milk before doing something drastic. The solution is not that complex and is currently in production for the simulation market. A 4-panel light engine is needed. SEOS are selling projectors with 500000+:1 in on/off. I repeat this like a stubborn parrot but the technology is available. A 4-panel solution would have to be well engineered to meet brightness and panel registration requirements. I think it is doable especially in the high end market where the buyers are prepared to pay for R&D.

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post #184 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antorsae View Post

Thank you for the responses...

The reason I asked about addressing the blacks is because the HT5000 is being portayed as the "absolute reference" and I believe it may be rightly so for high APL sources but not so much for low APL (possibly the RS1 would look better in low APL than the HT5000... I don't know; just asking).

It's all about tradeoffs... For low APL the crown seems to be in the CRT realm, while for high APL it is for 3DLP (to a lesser extent LCoS).

Art... I know this is sloppy territory; but given a particular selection of movies (i.e. yours) that have distinct APL scenes in them (some very low, some very high)... would you trade the WOW created by CRT black for the WOW created by the 3DLP whites?

I'm writing the check so yes but there is more to it then that.

Art

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post #185 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 08:14 AM
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Which are we more likely to see at Cedia, a doubling of ANSI CR on LCOS, or a doubling of Native On/Off CR on DLP (no Iris tricks)?

Having just compared the new Sim2 Unishape bulb modulation offering against my RS1, for me personally, the black level was not satisfying on the DLP, but the ANSI once again, made the RS1 look flat in comparison. Unfortunately, I could see no advantage to Sim2's new bulb modulation, in terms of On/Off CR.

Rainbows aside, if DLP could double their On/Off into RS1 territory it would be phenomenal. Along the same lines, if JVC were to come out with a pro version of the RS1, with accurate colors, and ANSI of 600 or more, it would be killer.

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post #186 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 08:27 AM
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If JVC were to offer 4-panel RS1 pro design you could get lens limited ANSI. Just the "scatter" in the last piece of optics in the projector would be limiting. Lcos would get a more important ANSI kick from going 4-panel than what dlp would. I will now stop hijacking this thread.

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post #187 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 08:42 AM
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Right now DLP has better ANSI sharper and more light output and could be argued better color. LCOS has better on/off.

Art

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post #188 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Right now DLP has better ANSI sharper and more light output and could be argued better color. LCOS has better on/off.

Art

Hi Art,

You sent me a PM the other day but I am unable to reply as your AVS mailbox appears to be full.

Regards


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post #189 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 01:04 PM
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Hi Art,

You sent me a PM the other day but I am unable to reply as your AVS mailbox appears to be full.

Yes, thanks. I opened up some space if you would respond to the original PM I'd appreciate it.

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post #190 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I'm writing the check so yes but there is more to it then that.

Art

Say it aint so!
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post #191 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Say it aint so!

Aren't you the guy who has been telling me how inadequate my CRT based system is compared to fixed pixel devices for at least the last couple of years ?

Art

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post #192 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 08:50 PM
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You were that impressed by the performance in other areas that you are giving up your superb low APL performance and FTB?!

I wish some day you could see where I have taken CRT front projection at home.

I'm keeping my eye on the 3 Chippers but I think you're jumping the gun a little... oh well, you've obviously seen something you really really like. Enjoy! Plus, it will give me another reason to jump on a plane and visit you.

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post #193 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

You were that impressed by the performance in other areas that you are giving up your superb low APL performance and FTB?!

I wish some day you could see where I have taken CRT front projection at home.

I'm keeping my eye on the 3 Chippers but I think you're jumping the gun a little... oh well, you've obviously seen something you really really like. Enjoy! Plus, it will give me another reason to jump on a plane and visit you.

Gino,

The difference between 3 chip and stacked or blended CRT is night and day in everything but low APL.

Sharpness, light output, color, ANSI, and ability to light up a big ass screen. Trust me big dog, I've seen it first hand. It smoked the stack in so many ways it's sick.

For smaller screen sizes and rooms like mine though, that projector would turn my room into daylight and completely destroy what film is all about.

Art's room though, that's a completely different story and I'm really looking foward to bringing my PS3 up and playing some games on that big ass screen without having to hear him ream my ass about burning the tubes!

Congrats Art. Cant wait to see the final outcome!

Cliffy
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post #194 of 658 Old 06-19-2007, 09:30 PM
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If Daylight is your thing, it's a perfect match. I tried cranking the tubes for fun to Contrast 90, I figure maybe 14ftL's on my 13' wide unity gain screen, but much too bright for my eyes.

What sort of light output are you planning to run the HT5000 on Art? Screensize? When do you get it so I can plan my next visit

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post #195 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

You were that impressed by the performance in other areas that you are giving up your superb low APL performance and FTB?!

I wish some day you could see where I have taken CRT front projection at home.

I'm keeping my eye on the 3 Chippers but I think you're jumping the gun a little... oh well, you've obviously seen something you really really like. Enjoy! Plus, it will give me another reason to jump on a plane and visit you.

Well I may be jumping the gun but I'm realistically OK with swapping out this projector when one comes along that will beat it. Even at the cost it is much less expensive than when I was looking and did my stack.

I could go down the list but I'm not interested in justifying my change here. No doubt I'm giving up low APL performance but will get at least half a dozen advantages.If you think there is a digital projector coming in the next few months that has the HT 5000's performance with a G90s low APL then your right, I'm jumping the gun , otherwise I don't see it.

Art

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post #196 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Well I may be jumping the gun but I'm realistically OK with swapping out this projector when one comes along that will beat it. Even at the cost it is much less expensive than when I was looking and did my stack.

I could go down the list but I'm not interested in justifying my change here. No doubt I'm giving up low APL performance but will get at least half a dozen advantages.If you think there is a digital projector coming in the next few months that has the HT 5000's performance with a G90s low APL then your right, I'm jumping the gun , otherwise I don't see it.

Art

Way to go Big Dog!

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post #197 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 08:48 AM
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Hi Art,
Just wondering, If you were not planning on going bigger with your screen would the HT5000 be any less attractive to you? It seems that in your case the HT5000 is the solution or at least a better solution than your stack but would your opinion change for much smaller screen sizes?
I'm referring to the HT5000 compared to perhaps a single 8" or 9" CRT on say a 7' or 8' screen?
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post #198 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Aren't you the guy who has been telling me how inadequate my CRT based system is compared to fixed pixel devices for at least the last couple of years ?

Art

I hope that is a tongue in cheek response. I have always said that a G90 is a reference display device. I believe there are fixed pixel devices that are also reference devices and do some things better than a G90.

I never suspected you would replace them with a < 5,000:1/ 500:1 ACR pj. I would have thought it would take 10,000:1 / 750:1 ACR to tempt you.

Good luck! i will continue to live vicariously through you.
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post #199 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 09:09 AM
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An HT5k OOTB is >5000/1 cr, typically itro 7000/1, ANSI is itro 800.

Sim always give on/off as conservative minimums. My D80s (>4000/1) were 5200 and 5400. ANSIs were 725 and 745.

ps Art et al, I,m working on my 5k report at the moment.

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post #200 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterpanski View Post

Hi Art,
Just wondering, If you were not planning on going bigger with your screen would the HT5000 be any less attractive to you? It seems that in your case the HT5000 is the solution or at least a better solution than your stack but would your opinion change for much smaller screen sizes?
I'm referring to the HT5000 compared to perhaps a single 8" or 9" CRT on say a 7' or 8' screen?

Well three chip DLP has some very nice things about it but yes the screen size and room required a three chip DLP IMO.

I guess at some point I should post all of my reasons so I could defend my choice for a few months until a better projector comes out and I can then be told I should have waited.

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post #201 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I guess at some point I should post all of my reasons so I could defend my choice for a few months until a better projector comes out and I can then be told I should have waited.

It sounds like you do not believe that anything will be introduced at CEDIA 07 that would be a better choice for you than the HT5000?
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post #202 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 02:35 PM
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Congrads Art:

I assume you are still looking at 14' wide screen? I forgot what your room demensions are could you post them when you get a chance?
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post #203 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post


I guess at some point I should post all of my reasons so I could defend my choice for a few months until a better projector comes out and I can then be told I should have waited.

Yes, It would seem that the man who proudly proclaims having the worlds "reference system" has a responsibility to calm the nerves of us CRTers who bought, hook line and sinker, all of your propaganda throughout the years ( new member but I've been a lurker for a long time)

But seriously, for me , considering the investment, the HT5000 would have to absolutely blow your G90s away. I understand we all have different economic considerations and obviously you're an intelligent guy but I would hate to see something 6 months from now that beats the HT5000 for 1/4 the price which seems almost inevitable considering the current trend.

On the other hand I guess you have to jump in at some point. I just hope this is a good point. Just playing a little devil's advocate for your consideration.

Edit:
I see that you have already written the check. I didn't know that. Forget everything I just said and enjoy your new projector!
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post #204 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Peterpanski View Post

I would hate to see something 6 months from now that beats the HT5000 for 1/4 the price which seems almost inevitably considering the current trend.

Sadly anything that can handle a large screen with the needed light output the price trend you mention does not apply. Im guessing we are 4 to 5 years before we see any price reduction in 1080 3 chip DLP. Will we see an locos that can match the brightness of 3 chip DLP in the next 3 years I would like to say yes. Will it have the ANSI of DLP, I doubt but each will maintain their own benefits over the other.
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post #205 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterpanski View Post

But seriously, for me , considering the investment, the HT5000 would have to absolutely blow your G90s away.

It does, in many respects. In others, it does not.

Cliff
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post #206 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Sadly anything that can handle a large screen with the needed light output the price trend you mention does not apply. Im guessing we are 4 to 5 years before we see any price reduction in 1080 3 chip DLP. Will we see an locos that can match the brightness of 3 chip DLP in the next 3 years I would like to say yes. Will it have the ANSI of DLP, I doubt but each will maintain their own benefits over the other.

4K Rez 3 chip DLP with 100,000 to one contrast driven by lasers.

I'm hoping I will win the lottery and that will be my next purchase.

Cliffy
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post #207 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Sadly anything that can handle a large screen with the needed light output the price trend you mention does not apply. .

Interesting. I didn't know that. I just assumed the brighter projectors follow the same trend. I didn't realize it was difficult to design and build a very bright projector. What's the major hurdles? Cooling? Size?
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post #208 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by overclkr View Post

It does, in many respects. In others, it does not.

Cliff

I'm just glad I love my 7' image with a single G70 CRT. Makes thing a lot less complicated and considerably less expensive. Not to mention cosier. Yea that's the ticket it's cosier.
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post #209 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by overclkr View Post

It does, in many respects. In others, it does not.

Cliff

This is the bottom line I think really after that one simply has to look and see what one thinks.

I know in my case watching the picture on the HT 5000 gave me the itch. I've not looked at a projected image in a long time and just said out loud " Jesus Christ !"

After I sent the 5000 back to AVScience I was not able to enjoy my system as much. After I just said you know based on the positives I think I'm ready.

Art

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post #210 of 658 Old 06-20-2007, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

This is the bottom line I think really after that one simply has to look and see what one thinks.

I know in my case watching the picture on the HT 5000 gave me the itch. I've not looked at a projected image in a long time and just said out loud " Jesus Christ !"

After I sent the 5000 back to AVScience I was not able to enjoy my system as much. After I just said you know based on the positives I think I'm ready.

Art

It also gave you and I quote "I'm ready now, who do I write the check out to?" while Sin City was on the screen. A classic moment and damn dude, it was SMOKIN'.

I actually thought coming there that it was going to be too bright for me, but in your room, it will fit perfect. People are going to be amazed when they see it fo sho big dog.

The most important person in YOUR room is you. This is what will make you happy and that is all that matters. Any subjective opinion that may cast a negative light on your decision absolutely means nothing.

I'm happy for you and like I said, I'm bringing the PS3, my XBOX360, and the kids and I are going to have a blast and the best part is you wont even think twice about it!

Congrats big dog. Your a lucky man and a great friend.

Cliffy
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