PS Audio Premier Power Plant - too little bass! [caution:big files] - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I saved for almost a year and paid $3700 for this. I used to use a P300 Power Plant with MWave4. The Premier is more efficient which is why it can't do MWave4 like the older Power Plants. The Premier can only do MWave1. I was hoping it would be different but it wasn't, I'm still hearing the open, flat, thin, empty, too much midrange, lifeless MWave1 signature except it is little faster with more low-level detail than both MWave1 and MWave4 of my P300 Power Plant.

The problem is where is the bass? I wrapped the Premier with 5 sheets of ERS Paper and it increased the bass a bit. I added a couple more Harvesters and upper bass got huge. But it still sounded empty in the mid-bass. I let it burn in for a few days and didn't hear a difference. I added extra ERS Paper inside my amp and still not enough bass.











I did a blind test and compared Sinewave against MWave1 and the result was obvious, with MWave1 I heard more bass transients and with Sinewave they were gone. Now I knew I was going to get twice the improvement if I could have MWave4.

So I put back the P300 Power Plant and plugged it into Premier. Based on a year of experimenting I knew that Toroidal transformers benefit the most from MWave4, so I hardwired my Benchmark DAC1 back into it. Problem solved! I got crazy bass and fullness, more blackness and whiteness, more transparency, more dynamics, more life, more bass transients, more shimmering, more body, faster, darker, warmer, fuller, deeper, heavier, more realistic, more detail, more oomph, crazy highs, crazy lows, I feel it in my body. All this from changing MWave1 into MWave4!













So my DAC1 has MWave4 from P300, but the rest of the gear are plugged into Premier which only has MWave1, it's on the edge of sounding unacceptable, there still is something very subtle missing but it's still listenable, it's okay for now. I don't have enough ERS Paper for my P300 because I moved it inside my amp! That must be the problem. ERS for P300 gave more bass the last time I tried it.
I remember something else now, I tried some Sorbothane feet under the P300 before and got too much bass so I promptly removed it. I'm going to try it tomorrow, but first I need to rest my body from tweaking 24 hours in 2 days.

My rack is like a puzzle to put together, I have most of them hardwired. My rack needs to be lifted up to be moved but my table is in the way, so I have a motor on the table to lift it up, it's the only way. I can fine tune the height of the table so that the cables are long enough for the gear on top of the table.
When I need to hardwire interconnects I need to lift up rack and put in the middle of the room. But now when I have P300 hardwired on top of the table I need to bend my body in weird shapes and come from behind the rack with the soldering iron, I got a few burns. I also need to do the horse stance above the rack and bend forwards behind the rack.
When the system finally is hardwired I need to plug the connectors into the Premier, but the space behind the rack is only 20cm so I need to do a few pelvic thrusts to press it in. After that I need to plug in my Cary transport which has a 50cm Valhalla and I need to lower the table, since the table is so low I need to bend my body at the side of the rack, it's very tight and I almost get stuck between computer case and rack. Afterwards my legs are weak and I fall to the floor. But it sounds better so it's worth it.

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post #2 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 06:39 AM
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Plug your P300 in the premier and plug everything into your P300 with MW4.

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post #3 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 07:21 AM
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Maybe you should sell the Premier and buy one of the older models like the P600 with the features that you like if the P300 does not provide enough power. A lot of guys are upgrading so you likely can get some great deals. You already appear to have all of the ERS paper that you would need.

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post #4 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mburnstein View Post

Plug your P300 in the premier and plug everything into your P300 with MW4.

That was the first thing I did.

I put the Premier between wall and Ultimate Outlet + P300 Power Plant. I added a Nordost Vishnu power cord to connect the two. The Vishnu hadn't been used for almost a year. I'm using Nordost Valhalla in my whole system.


Added Premier + worse cable into the signal path.

First impressions: Dull, lifeless, muddy, lack of transparency, loss of dynamics, there is something in front of the music, background isn't black anymore, it sounds messed up. Transients sound incomplete, blackness in between transients is lacking badly. Muddiness is unbearable, I just want to turn it off.

I didn't know Vishnu was this bad.

_______________


I tried it again, but this time I threw away the Vishnu and used Valhalla for everything. I borrowed my computer's Valhalla power cord, that one doesn't have any ERS Paper though.

I plugged P300 Power Plant and Cary transport into Premier. Only the amp and DAC are plugged into P300 with MWave4.
I never expected an improvement like this! I'm hearing very quiet details everywhere, they are so subtle I can't hear them properly. I can just hear there are loads of very quiet stuff going on. It's very deep!

A month ago my system sounded very thin which gave the illusion that the decay continued forever, but after I plugged a Noise Harvester into the wall the body increased and it sounded like the decay was cut off too early. But now when Premier is powering P300 Power Plant I don't hear the decay getting cut off anymore. In every track I hear new low-level sounds I never heard before, I didn't even know there was anything there!

I still have the Ultimate Outlet between P300 and Premier (cables not long enough). I'm hearing some reduced dynamics and speed from it, little less highs and lows.


Later I replaced the Ultimate Outlet with JuiceBar and it didn't help much. It sounded very boring, there was no speed, there was only low-level detail and nothing else.
Having only the DAC1 plugged into P300 seems to be the best.

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post #5 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 07:33 AM
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Hard wire the P300 into the Premier with valhalla!!

mark

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Art's and my buddy Steve Bruzonsky! And Oneobgyn if I ever make it to NorCal!
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post #6 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Maybe you should sell the Premier and buy one of the older models like the P600 with the features that you like if the P300 does not provide enough power. A lot of guys are upgrading so you likely can get some great deals. You already appear to have all of the ERS paper that you would need.

I didn't buy the Premier without backup plans. I need it for my computer, it saves me more electricity. The computer used to use a 2nd P300 with a table fan cooling it, but it blew up after a week, so I have temporarily used an Ultimate Outlet for the past half year.

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post #7 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 09:00 AM
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Have you tried turning on your subwoofer???

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:

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post #8 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Have you tried turning on your subwoofer???

He's using headphones...

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post #9 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 11:53 AM
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This is a loony thread. Sorry, but the idea of plugging a P300 into the Premier is self-defeating. I have the P300 and run it from a 220v outlet and downstep the electricity to source components. I wouldn't even consider rigging a setup like this.

And plugging a computer into a P300? Yeah, that makes my browser run smoother.
And don't even get me started on all that paper? The P300 can light that stuff up, it's so hot.

Boy that P300 looks really tremendous on top of a desk.

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post #10 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 12:15 PM
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I know what you should do as your next tweak!!!

You should build a Faraday Cage around all (or most) of your electronics equipment. It's extremely simple and will defeat any electromagnetic radiation from passing through into your electronics. Also, in the event of an EMP explosion, it would protect your electronics!

It just involves getting some layer of conductive material to surround the electronic device and then grounding that conductive material. I'm thinking of building one out of simple aluminum foil insulation and lining my equipment room with it.

-Chris B.



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post #11 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 12:27 PM
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Very, very funny. And your setup with the aluminum is also flame retardant.

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post #12 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romanesq View Post

This is a loony thread. Sorry, but the idea of plugging a P300 into the Premier is self-defeating. I have the P300 and run it from a 220v outlet and downstep the electricity to source components. I wouldn't even consider rigging a setup like this.

You wouldn't consider getting Premier?

The voltage from the wall is around 243, the output of Premier is 233. When it goes into P300 it downsteps it a little further (somewhere around 140-180 volts I believe), and then the P300 outputs 120 volts from that. I don't see the problem with this.


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Originally Posted by romanesq View Post

And plugging a computer into a P300? Yeah, that makes my browser run smoother.

The biggest difference came from plugging computer into Premier. There are new low-level details everywhere even with mp3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by romanesq View Post

And don't even get me started on all that paper? The P300 can light that stuff up, it's so hot.

Boy that P300 looks really tremendous on top of a desk.

P300 is not hot if it's upside down with the cover slightly open. I used to run DAC and amp like that 24/7 for half a year, it was just barely warm. I'm using headphones so the ICEpower amp doesn't draw much power, the display of P300 said 10 watts total. Now with the DAC1 it says 0 watts.

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post #13 of 154 Old 02-04-2007, 08:17 PM
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Also, in the event of an EMP explosion, it would protect your electronics!

That's only true if you have no external cables leading in. Or, in this case, cables from the inside leading out. Thus, Farraday cages works for fighter jets and deep mountain bases, but not necessarily for much else.

Btw: plugging a computer into a power conditioner is not necessarily a bad idea.

First, modern computers have very sensitive clocks, and if you clean up the power, you may actually fix problems like the occasional blue screen, if those problems are caused by jitter.

Second, a switching power supply generates lots of noise on the power circuit. If you plug the switching power supply into a balanced power transformer, much of that noise will be canceled out in the coil, and not transferred to other equipment.

However, power cords and power strips very seldom affect power quality, and thus sound quality. In the few cases where this happens, it's because of some flaw in an individual specimen being replaced, or some really cheap crap like 18 awg extension cords. Also, once, I've heard of galvanic interference because of different metal alloys, but that was a freak case :-)


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post #14 of 154 Old 02-05-2007, 12:17 AM
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ValhallaPC, have you checked the PSAudio.com forum. You can get a response from the staff on these questions.
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post #15 of 154 Old 02-05-2007, 12:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ValhallaPC View Post

I remember something else now, I tried some Sorbothane feet under the P300 before and got too much bass so I promptly removed it. I'm going to try it tomorrow, but first I need to rest my body from tweaking 24 hours in 2 days.

Music sounded fine today, more low-level detail everywhere, in movies I hear laptop harddrive spinning and other subtle stuff I never heard before.

But in music something subtle is missing from the bass, so I put some Sorbothane feet under the P300, now I get too much bass! Bass is emphasized and there is less midrange detail. It made it sound worse, the bass and midrange sound less distinct now, it sounds muddy. I think my impressions were similar almost a year ago when I last tried it, I need to try to find it in my megabytes of logs.

The rubber feet made bass heavy, dull, boomy and muddy.

Next I changed to tennis balls, but suddenly music stopped playing, Valhalla conductor came loose from P300 and I had to solder it back. It takes about a day to warm up my system again.

But it doesn't seem like tennis balls give tight enough bass transients. I need to get 15 more Solid-tech Feet of Silence, I asked a dealer how much discount I get.

If I buy something I need to buy enough to complete my system, I don't want to keep spending money on shipping, I'm too poor for that. I also asked PS Audio how much 100 Harvesters cost. I will thread a conductor through the holes so in the end it gets very cheap. I can hang the Harvesters in the ceiling. Maybe there's a problem when sleeping though. Sort of like stars blinking in the sky.

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post #16 of 154 Old 02-05-2007, 05:05 AM
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You have not aligned your system for proper synergism in accordance with well established feng shui principles. As a result, your energies are fighting each other and your chakras are most assuredly in disharmonious contention leading to the problems such as you've described.

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post #17 of 154 Old 02-05-2007, 05:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

You have not aligned your system for proper synergism in accordance with well established feng shui principles. As a result, your energies are fighting each other and your chakras are most assuredly in disharmonious contention leading to the problems such as you've described.

The series called '********!' had an episode about that. I have seen all episodes...

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post #18 of 154 Old 02-05-2007, 10:27 AM
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The Premier can handle equipment up to 1500 volts. The P300 is up to 300. Doesn't make any sense handicapping this and spending the dough that way. (Have been interested in the Premier to add a projector to the mix, but it doesn't allow me to use the 220v outlet and downstep to equipment like the P300.)

I"ll test the computer into the P300 but I'm skeptical it has real discernible impact.

I also run the P300 upside down with the cover partially open. It's still hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValhallaPC View Post

You wouldn't consider getting Premier?

The voltage from the wall is around 243, the output of Premier is 233. When it goes into P300 it downsteps it a little further (somewhere around 140-180 volts I believe), and then the P300 outputs 120 volts from that. I don't see the problem with this.



The biggest difference came from plugging computer into Premier. There are new low-level details everywhere even with mp3.


P300 is not hot if it's upside down with the cover slightly open. I used to run DAC and amp like that 24/7 for half a year, it was just barely warm. I'm using headphones so the ICEpower amp doesn't draw much power, the display of P300 said 10 watts total. Now with the DAC1 it says 0 watts.


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post #19 of 154 Old 02-05-2007, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOLDFLOW View Post

ValhallaPC, have you checked the PSAudio.com forum. You can get a response from the staff on these questions.

He uses more of his real name over at the PS Audio forum and doesn't say the sort of totally crazy things he says here. Tell ya somethin?

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:

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post #20 of 154 Old 02-05-2007, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

He uses more of his real name over at the PS Audio forum and doesn't say the sort of totally crazy things he says here. Tell ya somethin?

Yeah because they wouldn't understand what Valhalla is trying to achieve. Only a few enlightened ones here on the forum can understand that the chase for perfect sound never ends.





Valhalla I still think you should build a Faraday cage around your power plants, amps, and other gadgets to protect them from electro-magnetic radiation. And from a rating of 1-10 with 10 being the best, this would be a 1,000,042. Imagine being able to stop all those evil electro-magnetic waves from polluting your sound? You would even be able to use a cell phone near the equipment and not get interference!

-Chris B.



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post #21 of 154 Old 02-05-2007, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

He uses more of his real name over at the PS Audio forum and doesn't say the sort of totally crazy things he says here. Tell ya somethin?

Yeah, I think your analysis of the PPP on the PS Audio forum is a little more insightful, though less entertaining.
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post #22 of 154 Old 02-05-2007, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Valhalla I still think you should build a Faraday cage around your power plants, amps, and other gadgets to protect them from electro-magnetic radiation. And from a rating of 1-10 with 10 being the best, this would be a 1,000,042. Imagine being able to stop all those evil electro-magnetic waves from polluting your sound? You would even be able to use a cell phone near the equipment and not get interference!

What is the price for the Faraday cage? What do I need?

I got back from Stillpoints and the ERS Paper roll costs $5500 in Sweden, they gave 30% discount. I don't know what they were thinking since it's only $3935 from Partsconnexion for an equal amount (225 sheets).

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post #23 of 154 Old 02-06-2007, 07:00 AM
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"With radio's and smaller appliances, a Faraday cage can be built by using two cardboard boxes: one should fit tightly inside the other, and the item to be covered should itself fit reasonably well inside the smaller box. That is about the most work involved--finding the right size boxes! The outer box is then covered with aluminum foil or Mylar, as from a cheap "space blanket." A grounding wire is then taped to the foil. I then cover the foil with black 6 mil plastic, taped securely in place, to protect the foil from ripping. At the end of the ground wire I attach a cheap small alligator clip from Radio Shack. The item to be protected is placed inside the inner box, which acts as insulation from the outer box, and any EMP hitting the foil and is bled away by the ground wire."

Taken from http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/em...aday_cages.htm

All it is is a conductive material or fine conductive wire mesh is completely wrapped around something and is securely grounded. Through some laws of physics, electrical charges and electro-magnetic radiation will not be able to travel inside the cage.

-Chris B.



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post #24 of 154 Old 02-06-2007, 09:25 AM
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Quote:


He uses more of his real name over at the PS Audio forum and doesn't say the sort of totally crazy things he says here. Tell ya somethin?

Well the staff over at the PS Audio forum also says some crazy things.

If the cost of ERS paper is abhorrent, then why not try to find vendors of RFI impregnated cloths or for that matter RFI sprays or paints? You could consider painting your room with copper impregnated paints that are used for boats to take advantage of the RFI blocking ability of copper. An unintended benefit considering the paint is used for other purposes.

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post #25 of 154 Old 02-06-2007, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Well the staff over at the PS Audio forum also says some crazy things.

If the cost of ERS paper is abhorrent, then why not try to find vendors of RFI impregnated cloths or for that matter RFI sprays or paints? You could consider painting your room with copper impregnated paints that are used for boats to take advantage of the RFI blocking ability of copper. An unintended benefit considering the paint is used for other purposes.

People use paint for looks? I don't care about looks, it's a waste of money, like clothes and shaving.

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post #26 of 154 Old 02-06-2007, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Either I'm insane or I'm hearing new detail and speed than yesterday. I guess burn in might be true then. I have computer plugged into it now, might be why.

I woke up and listened, it sounded better but I refused to believe. I didn't listen for the whole day and now I listen again. Still sounds better than yesterday.

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post #27 of 154 Old 02-07-2007, 09:55 AM
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Well if you read the BSAudio ooops sorry typo PSAudio forums you will see many people having issues with this anvil called the P3. Several fellows report the sound sucks after they installed them and are told just wait let it burn in and get used to the system it only gets better. A couple of people reported getting shocked by them.I count at least 6 people in one thread who have a clicking sound.At least six noisey fans. Two people with power shutting off. One fellow who had working gear then after plugging into the P3 it had burned up and needed fixing. A couple of display issues.DJ Paul says all units are shipped to them and tested, so somebody is dropping the ball.And with all the issues people still keep going to them and are holding on to the bad gear they own waiting for the DJ to come up with fixes.
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post #28 of 154 Old 02-07-2007, 10:33 AM
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the funny part about this is that it is a physical fact that human auditory memory is about 4 seconds. THis is a proven thing that cognitive Psychologists use when doing all sorts of tests.

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post #29 of 154 Old 02-07-2007, 10:52 AM
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the funny part about this is that it is a physical fact that human auditory memory is about 4 seconds. THis is a proven thing that cognitive Psychologists use when doing all sorts of tests.


Try to tell that to the DJ. If you keep listening you just get used to it. At least thats whet they hope.
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post #30 of 154 Old 02-07-2007, 11:13 AM
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the funny part about this is that it is a physical fact that human auditory memory is about 4 seconds. THis is a proven thing that cognitive Psychologists use when doing all sorts of tests.

That is not true. Valhalla PC is obviously hearing more detail and speed than he hear the day before. I bet you the bass is much faster. In fact I would not be surprised if it is as fast as the midrange.

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