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post #271 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 01:35 PM
 
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Bias can never be removed from the equation. The second you gaze upon a new set of "geewiz-miracle-cables", is the second that you become biased. The brain can and will anticipate differences whether they exist or not.

It is difficult to believe that one made a mistake in the purchase of a "geewiz-miracle-cable" and hence one will get buyers remorse and so the brain will come up with all kinds of reasons to justify the purchase of said "miracle" cable.

Cognitive dissonance.

--Regards,
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post #272 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Bias can never be removed from the equation. The second you gaze upon a new set of "geewiz-miracle-cables", is the second that you become biased. The brain can and will anticipate differences whether they exist or not.

It is difficult to believe that one made a mistake in the purchase of a "geewiz-miracle-cable" and hence one will get buyers remorse and so the brain will come up with all kinds of reasons to justify the purchase of said "miracle" cable.

Cognitive dissonance.

--Regards,

While that seems a reasonable explanation, it nonetheless, does not explain why QueueCumber spend some big bucks and did not hear anything.

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post #273 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

While that seems a reasonable explanation, it nonetheless, does not explain why QueueCumber spend some big bucks and did not hear anything.

Cheers, John

He lacks imagination.

Seriously, either (1) there are no differences and he is not biased to anticipate them or (2) there are differences and he is biased to ignore them. Your ball.

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post #274 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 02:32 PM
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Quote:


It is difficult to believe that one made a mistake in the purchase of a "geewiz-miracle-cable" and hence one will get buyers remorse and so the brain will come up with all kinds of reasons to justify the purchase of said "miracle" cable.

Why? Many people are very insecure that their equipment isn't 'revealing' enough. I've heard more than one salesman say that maybe you need a 'better' amp, source, speakers to appreciate the difference. Besides, how many people marry the wrong person...a bitch...a bastard...and spend years if not lifetimes with them?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #275 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 02:36 PM
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Perhaps if Jeffmac had served it, you might've had a different impression Ron. I'll have to try it.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #276 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 02:40 PM
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Jeffmac would not be caught dead cooking with or serving it.
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post #277 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 02:49 PM
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Probably not! I don't know if there are better wines to be had for $2, but then again I don't know many wines at all for $2, so it's not saying much. Note that in an ABC News article about Two Buck Chuck, another blind taster put it dead last---and a $130 bottle came in next to last!

Part of the problem with Chardonnays is that people don't seem to agree on how they should taste. Buttery? Fruity? Oaky?

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post #278 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 02:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Why? Many people are very insecure that their equipment isn't 'revealing' enough.

The brain is anticipating an improvement. That improvement could stem from a number of reasons not related to sound quality itself (which I believe is the case in most instances).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I've heard more than one salesman say that maybe you need a 'better' amp, source, speakers to appreciate the difference.

Bingo ! The salesman has released the trigger. As soon as he tells the customer what he needs or what he will expect to gain (or hear) is the second that his mind will be anticipating a difference (the power of suggestion).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Besides, how many people marry the wrong person...a bitch...a bastard...and spend years if not lifetimes with them?

Buyers remorse. Take cables for example. Cables usually have an exchange period of about a week (or two). But the mind has trouble not hearing what it should be hearing, afterall, the salesman conveniently conditioned his brain to anticipate the difference with subjective desciptors.

So, yeah, sometimes this can backfire. But the problem is that even when it does, the customer, not knowing any better will attempt to "burn in" the cables until his brain is conditioned to accept the new sound as an improvement.

Justification is the name of the game.

Problem is, by the time his brain has convinced him that the new sound, subjective as it may be, is better than before, his return period has expired. Whether a difference exists or not has no meaning anymore because his mind will surely create differences that never existed to begin with.

Ouch.

--Regards,
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post #279 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 03:34 PM
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Yes, but is it as good as Thunderbird?

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post #280 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 03:43 PM
 
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I wish someone --anyone--could present an argument that supported cable burn in. The question is whether or not electrons can burn in. Perhaps the electrons become arranged in a specific pattern once current flows.

Who knows ! As long as the concept makes money. Oh, for those who look down on me and claim heretic. . .let me remind you that I biwire.

I biwire not because I think it sounds better but because it sure looks pwetty.

--Regards,
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post #281 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

He lacks imagination.

Seriously, either (1) there are no differences and he is not biased to anticipate them or (2) there are differences and he is biased to ignore them. Your ball.

Hi

For the sake of completeness let us add one more possibility:

2) There are differences and he did not perceive them

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post #282 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 03:58 PM
 
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Another possibility is that he perceived the differences but is too ashamed to admit it for fear of being exposed as a fruitcake.

--Regards,
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post #283 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Hi

For the sake of completeness let us add one more possibility:

2) There are differences and he did not perceive them

That might be (3) but, imho, it is the same as (2). His (or anyone's) conscious perception is but a version of objective reality filtered by subconscious mechanisms. I doubt he has a sensorineural deficit.

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post #284 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Another possibility is that he perceived the differences but is too ashamed to admit it for fear of being exposed as a fruitcake.

Doesn't stop most of us.

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post #285 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

He lacks imagination.

Seriously, either (1) there are no differences and he is not biased to anticipate them or (2) there are differences and he is biased to ignore them. Your ball.

To be fair, I did try to justify the purchase afterwards when realizing I didn't hear any difference. I was embarressed, but I told myself that at least they looked cool, were made out of silver (so corrosion/oxidization wouldn't be an issue), and were likely very well constructed as well (as they appeared to be). OK, to be completely honest, they would also probably garner me some "respec" (as Ali G. would say) among the community.

I didn't post about my experience of not hearing anything until recently. One, because I felt foolish for not trying them out before hand and for assuming it might be possible that they make a difference I would hear without proof before hand. Two, I didn't want to admit I wasn't hearing a difference (to my credit though, I didn't use my "limited" imagination to pretend that I did either ).

I certainly was open to either side of this issue when I went in to buy the cables. I was aware of both sides of the argument from being on these fora for some time. My thinking was, if they do make a difference, I'm possibly missing out on better sound in my system. I also have a friend who swore that it made a tremendous difference in his system. Those were the influences going on in my mind when I finally took the leap. To me the measurements on the Nordost site seemed the most assuring, and their expense and history pages made it seem reasonable that there might be some type of research going on to make the cables. I also heard a system using them with B&W 800Ds before, that sounded good, and since I had the 802Ds at the time I felt it definitely couldn't hurt the sound, so I went with their cables.

I could have been biased either way, since I was teetering between both points of views. I also believe that consciousness effects reality in ways we can not understand with science, so it is possible that, even if something should do nothing, a person's beliefs can be strong enough to influence, one, their own experience of things for the better or worse, and/or two, their perceptions can subtly change their reality (much in-line with the uncertainty principle) towards their expectations. Perhaps these two are the same difference, though at a quantum level how we observe/approach things does effect how they behave.

Like I said, I like to think I have an open mind. I just don't happen to hear a difference. I have said on other threads that I am actually happy for that fact, it will save me a lot of money in the future. Do I think other people are not hearing differences? Only they know for sure, and perhaps if they believe they do hear differences strongly enough, they do, simply because they believe they do. It does stink IMO to have to spend so much extra money, merely because one can't help but believe in something.

In any case, I posted my experiences simply to prove the point that some of us have tried cables out and didn't hear anything and based our point of view on that experience, not on the basis of approaching it before hand with our minds already made up on the issue.

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post #286 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

I biwire not because I think it sounds better but because it sure looks pwetty.

You sit behind your speakers?!

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post #287 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 04:38 PM
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Many differences in say competently constructed cables which can be both measured and modeled, simply don't rise to the level of audible differences.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #288 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Many differences in say competently constructed cables which can be both measured and modeled, simply don't rise to the level of audible differences.

And on those occasions where cables can make a difference it is due to those measured differences (RLC) and well understood modeling and not *magic.*

Shawn
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post #289 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I could have been biased either way, since I was teetering between both points of views. I also believe that consciousness effects reality in ways we can not understand with science, so it is possible that, even if something should do nothing, a person's beliefs can be strong enough to influence, one, their own experience of things for the better or worse, and/or two, their perceptions can subtly change their reality (much in-line with the uncertainty principle) towards their expectations. Perhaps these two are the same difference, though at a quantum level how we observe/approach things does effect how they behave.

Like I said, I like to think I have an open mind. I just don't happen to hear a difference. I have said on other threads that I am actually happy for that fact, it will save me a lot of money in the future. Do I think other people are not hearing differences? Only they know for sure, and perhaps if they believe they do hear differences strongly enough, they do, simply because they believe they do. It does stink IMO to have to spend so much extra money, merely because one can't help but believe in something.

In any case, I posted my experiences simply to prove the point that some of us have tried cables out and didn't hear anything and based our point of view on that experience, not on the basis of approaching it before hand with our minds already made up on the issue.

I understand and I hope you understand that I used the term bias in an operational sense, not implying awareness or intent.

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post #290 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 05:08 PM
 
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As I suspected

No coments on the CABLE COOKER


HMMMM




I made some wires last night and put them in the oven to burn in....They were burning just fine till the smoke alarms went off, It said bake at 140 for 25 minutes, dont know what the hell happened.....

Not sure EZ off can get the goop off my oven bottom


DAMN BURN IN POST!


had to leave windows and doors open to get the rubber burn in stench out!



Now you must excuse me I have a date with a HOTTIE tonight.... ( no pun inteded ) Just ironic that it has happend while this thread is going on....Maby there will be more cable burining in tonight LOL I doubt it LOL
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post #291 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I understand and I hope you understand that I used the term bias in an operational sense, not implying awareness or intent.

If you mean that in the systemic sense that, a device always measures a certain way despite any outside considerations (such as a thermometer that is alway 2 degrees higher than the actual temperature), then I understand. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you mean.

I wasn't describing my entire process and experience, previous to and directly afterwards, in conflict with your post. Your post just became a jumping point for me to describe what was going on in my mind during the whole process, for the benefit of portraying the experience as truthfully as possible. I didn't go out and buy cables to disprove anything, and I didn't go out and buy them because I already believed they would work. I bought them because I was afraid that they might work and I was missing out on something. My initial response to your post was mostly driven by the humor I found in the statement about my "imagination," but quickly turned into something a lot longer (ideaphoria).

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post #292 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic C View Post

As I suspected

No coments on the CABLE COOKER


HMMMM




I made some wires last night and put them in the oven to burn in....They were burning just fine till the smoke alarms went off, It said bake at 140 for 25 minutes, dont know what the hell happened.....

Not sure EZ off can get the goop off my oven bottom


DAMN BURN IN POST!


had to leave windows and doors open to get the rubber burn in stench out!



Now you must excuse me I have a date with a HOTTIE tonight.... ( no pun inteded ) Just ironic that it has happend while this thread is going on....Maby there will be more cable burining in tonight LOL I doubt it LOL

Who cares about the cooking details. Tell us how they tasted!

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post #293 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic C View Post

As I suspected

No coments on the CABLE COOKER


HMMMM




I made some wires last night and put them in the oven to burn in....They were burning just fine till the smoke alarms went off, It said bake at 140 for 25 minutes, dont know what the hell happened.....

Not sure EZ off can get the goop off my oven bottom


DAMN BURN IN POST!


had to leave windows and doors open to get the rubber burn in stench out!



Now you must excuse me I have a date with a HOTTIE tonight.... ( no pun inteded ) Just ironic that it has happend while this thread is going on....Maby there will be more cable burining in tonight LOL I doubt it LOL

VIC,

Your hottie tried to pick me up last weekend. But I am a middle age old married fogie and don't need more complications. I gave her your ####.

Truthfully, she saw the big "hole" where my Dwin (out being repaired) is supposed to be, and the big heavy power cords, and she said I was just too much for her. She was afraid too spend more time with me, she might become "burned-in"!

I told her you had the same Dwin I have but your little Dwin works. She said that
she can handle big or small so no big deal!!! ENJOY!!@@

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post #294 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Many differences in say competently constructed cables which can be both measured and modeled, simply don't rise to the level of audible differences.

Chu

Would you care to educate us on what is the level of perceptibility or to use your own terms, the "level of audible difference"?

Frantz
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post #295 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 08:58 PM
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i can show two cables (lets just use video for a second) and show that one has rock solid +/- .5 ohms throughout its frequency spectrum, and that another is all over the map, i al talking really bad. THen show you an EXTREMELY complex test pattern on screen and you will not be able to tell which is which.

So you may think that the one is far better than the other and objectively it is, however the difference is in this case outside the range of visible difference.

With audibility it is the same, we have to recognize that there are things from an accuracy standpoint that instrumentation can show, that we cannot see or hear. Test gear is far far far more accurate than the human ear.

THe other side of this however is that the test gear cannot tell us if the sound is good. However it can tell us if there is any difference in the performance of the two wires.

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post #296 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Chu

Would you care to educate us on what is the level of perceptibility or to use your own terms, the "level of audible difference"?


I am not speaking for Chu. I am sure he may have more to offer.
Here is one chart from a Journal paper:
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_crit.htm

This uses very sensitive signal, pink noise and bandwidth. As you can see, the wider the bandwidth that the differences are, the lower the threshold of detection, JND. The narrower, the higher. Also, not what happens at each end of the audible bands, how the ear/ brain, becomes less sensitive.

Florentine, Mary, et al 'Level Discrimination as a Function of Level for Tones from .25 to 16kHz. Journal of Acoustic Society of America, 81(5) May 1987, pg 1528-1541.

This is about level change of single frequency. Support the previous chart.

Axiom's experimentation of distortion. Not the levels needed at low frequency:
http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html#
and
http://www.mastersonaudio.com/features/20040401.htm

AES has a paper on how well different sounds can be volume matched, such as speech, different music, etc. Not very well.
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post #297 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

You sit behind your speakers?!


He may have lights and mirrors back there for all to see from the listening seat
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post #298 of 665 Old 07-18-2007, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

One hundered million homeless winos can't be wrong.


The testers were professional wine tasters. The most expensive one didn't score well at all. The second place winner was a bottle about $12 or so. What can I say.
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post #299 of 665 Old 07-19-2007, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

The testers were professional wine tasters. The most expensive one didn't score well at all. The second place winner was a bottle about $12 or so. What can I say.

I know. It was a joke, that if 100 million homeless winos drink it, then it must be great stuff. It is modeled after slogans used sometimes in advertising, e.g. "1 million people can't be wrong," or "10 million Americans can't be wrong." Basically it is advertising through the fallacy of appeal to people ad populum. Of course, it is total horse crap....

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post #300 of 665 Old 07-19-2007, 04:14 AM
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Charles answered more than sufficiently Frantz. Now all you've got to do is determine the FR differences between two cables given their L, C, R data for the lengths you're using be they interconnects or speaker wire.

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