Burn-in: Real Or Imagined??? - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 12:24 PM
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Thanx for the heads-up Sean.

Links to: Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 of the summary.

Link to the PDF whitepaper (Sean, the link is broken on your blog site).

Sanjay

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post #332 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Sean, purely out of interest, are you a genuine Tonmeister as your user name suggests?

I assume from McGill, if you are and are in N.America

Yes, I am a genuine Tonmeister with Masters and PhD degrees in Sound Recording from McGill University.

Cheers,
Sean Olive

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post #333 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Thanx for the heads-up Sean.

(Sean, the link is broken on your blog site).

Sanjay

Thanks Sanjay. I fixed the broken links on my blog. The links worked 2 days ago so I suspect the AES may change them from time to time.

Cheers,
Sean Olive

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post #334 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 12:42 PM
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Sean...good to see you on the forums! Keep Todd in line!

Dennis

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
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post #335 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 12:43 PM
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Have any of the blind tests done with single speakers by Harman been reproduced and verified with two speakers using the stereo effect?

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
-- Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)


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post #336 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Thats fantastic.

Do you see yourself becoming involved here?

I'd like to participate if I have the time.

Cheers,
Sean Olive

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post #337 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

Yes, I am a genuine Tonmeister with Masters and PhD degrees in Sound Recording from McGill University.

Thats fantastic.

Do you see yourself becoming involved here?

I think we could all benefit from a good hard dose of reality between the Tsunamis of BS.

(deleted the previous by accident.)

--------------------------------------------
"Wow, do you think you are Adonis"...... "Baby, I'm not A-donis, I'm THE-donis"
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post #338 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

I'd like to participate if I have the time.

Thanks.

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post #339 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Thats fantastic.

Do you see yourself becoming involved here?

I think we could all benefit from a good hard dose of reality between the Tsunamis of BS.

(deleted the previous by accident.)

Ha! Save yourself Tonmeister... Before it is too late!

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here"

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
-- Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)


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post #340 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Have any of the blind tests done with single speakers by Harman been reproduced and verified with two speakers using the stereo effect?

Yes, from time to time we test speakers in stereo to verify that the ratings are more or less the same. Floyd Toole reported in the mid 1980's that listeners tend to be more discriminating with single loudspeaker versus stereo evaluations. He talks about this in his new book Sound Reproduction.

In that same vein, we recently did a listening experiment on loudspeaker/room auto-equalization where we measured 3 different auto-Eq approaches evaluated in mono, stereo and 5.1 modes. We found that listeners' discrimination among the three equalizations decreased monotonically as you went from 1, 2 to 5 channels. So mono is still the preferred mode for loudspeaker testing if you are after the most sensitive, discriminating test.
see http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14622

Cheers
Sean Olive

Cheers,
Sean Olive

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post #341 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 01:53 PM
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Welcome Sean! Hope you stay a while.

One finding of Sean's that had me LOLing was the negative correlation of Consumer Reports speaker rankings with listener preferences!

--Andre
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post #342 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 02:01 PM
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Just multiply by -1.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #343 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Just multiply by -1.

pow(e,i*pi) for me. It looks fancier.

--Andre
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post #344 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Sean...good to see you on the forums! Keep Todd in line!

Dennis

Hi Dennis, and thanks for moderating this forum. I'll try to keep Todd in line. He's busy these days researching and validating a Binaural Room Scanning device we've developed that allows us to measure, playback and make comparative listening evaluations of different virtual automotive audio systems, home theatres, acoustical treatments of rooms.. you name it. It will allow us to hopefully address some of the remaining controversial questions in audio that cannot be easily tested without this device.

Cheers,
Sean Olive

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post #345 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

Welcome Sean! Hope you stay a while.

One finding of Sean's that had me LOLing was the negative correlation of Consumer Reports speaker rankings with listener preferences!

--Andre

I'm working on an article in my blog right now that summarizes my research on the flaws of the Consumer Reports loudspeaker test methods. But you are right, there was virtually no correlation between their predicted accuracy scores of loudspeakers and listener preference ratings (r = 0.05). They are now working on a new test method that will replace the one I tested. The AES preprint is here

Cheers,
Sean Olive

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post #346 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

I fixed the broken links on my blog.

BTW, now that you've passed 5 posts here at AVS, you can put direct links in your posts.

Sanjay

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post #347 of 665 Old 12-31-2008, 04:44 PM
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Sean,

Excellent articles. Thanks for sharing them. Three cheers for the NRC's and its alumni's work in this field.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

Yes, from time to time we test speakers in stereo to verify that the ratings are more or less the same. Floyd Toole reported in the mid 1980's that listeners tend to be more discriminating with single loudspeaker versus stereo evaluations. He talks about this in his new book Sound Reproduction.

Certain 'audiophiles' will raise lots of questions that were settled long ago, simply because they refuse to do the gruntwork of reading the relevant research papers (even when they're pointed to them).

FT's book is a fantastic new resource for home audio. And I've used your and his JAES papers many times on forums like this, in support of arguments against relying on sighed evaluations of audio, so I owe you guys, big time.
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post #349 of 665 Old 01-01-2009, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

I'm working on an article in my blog right now that summarizes my research on the flaws of the Consumer Reports loudspeaker test methods. But you are right, there was virtually no correlation between their predicted accuracy scores of loudspeakers and listener preference ratings (r = 0.05). They are now working on a new test method that will replace the one I tested. The AES preprint is here

Interestingly, I spoke with Paul Barton about this issue 15 years ago when he came to visit me at my shop. They invited him down to look at their test procedures and he said something to the effect of 'uhhh, you know that's wrong, don't you?' and they said something to the effect of 'well, it's the only way we could think of at the time to make it 'unbiased''. So, their operating theory was 'it doesn't matter if the results are wrong or random, as long as it is unbiased'. I even wrote to them several times to explain just how bad their procedure was before even speaking with Paul and each time they wrote back with a 'we know what we're doing' letter.

John
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post #350 of 665 Old 01-01-2009, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

The AES preprint is here

Is this paper on the HK web site somewhere as well?


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post #351 of 665 Old 01-01-2009, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

Yes, from time to time we test speakers in stereo to verify that the ratings are more or less the same. Floyd Toole reported in the mid 1980's that listeners tend to be more discriminating with single loudspeaker versus stereo evaluations. He talks about this in his new book Sound Reproduction.

In that same vein, we recently did a listening experiment on loudspeaker/room auto-equalization where we measured 3 different auto-Eq approaches evaluated in mono, stereo and 5.1 modes. We found that listeners' discrimination among the three equalizations decreased monotonically as you went from 1, 2 to 5 channels. So mono is still the preferred mode for loudspeaker testing if you are after the most sensitive, discriminating test.
see http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14622

Cheers
Sean Olive

Interesting. So, as you increase the number of speakers, variations in the response become less or equally differentiable. I was wondering about that, and had never seen any info on it before, except as suggested occasionally in magazine articles. Thanks for answering.

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There are recent indications that CR may be upgrading its loudspeaker test methods.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...n&dmode=source

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post14619094
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post #353 of 665 Old 01-01-2009, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Certain 'audiophiles' will raise lots of questions that were settled long ago, simply because they refuse to do the gruntwork of reading the relevant research papers (even when they're pointed to them).

FT's book is a fantastic new resource for home audio. And I've used your and his JAES papers many times on forums like this, in support of arguments against relying on sighed evaluations of audio, so I owe you guys, big time.

You will also find that certain 'audiophiles' are pompous and self-promoting.

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post #354 of 665 Old 01-01-2009, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Certain 'audiophiles' will raise lots of questions that were settled long ago, simply because they refuse to do the gruntwork of reading the relevant research papers (even when they're pointed to them).

FT's book is a fantastic new resource for home audio. And I've used your and his JAES papers many times on forums like this, in support of arguments against relying on sighed evaluations of audio, so I owe you guys, big time.

Yes, unfortunately many people today can't seem to consume new information unless it's fed to them in 15 s. sound bites, or a couple of 2-3 sentence paragraphs that can fit on a 15.4 inch screen between the banner ads. Just look at the decline of newspapers, book publishers, and audio magazines and other print media.

That is one of the reasons I started an audio blog: serve small digestible bites of audio science like the sampler tables at the end of aisles at Costco. If the snippet whets their appetite and curiosity, they may choose to invest in the family super-size version of the paper linked at the end of the article.

Cheers,
Sean Olive

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post #355 of 665 Old 01-01-2009, 03:28 PM
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Is this paper on the HK web site somewhere as well?

No, that paper is not on the harman web site since it's still a preprint. We will make it available if there is demand, or if and when it becomes a JAES paper.

Cheers,
Sean Olive

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post #356 of 665 Old 01-01-2009, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

You will also find that certain 'audiophiles' are pompous and self-promoting.

Really?? No way In that regard, they are no worse than some audio researchers and academics I know.

Cheers,
Sean Olive

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post #357 of 665 Old 01-01-2009, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

Really?? No way In that regard, they are no worse than some audio researchers and academics I know.

Somehow that is comforting...

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
-- Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)


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post #358 of 665 Old 01-01-2009, 03:45 PM
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I am glad you are doing the blog; I am interested in the topics, but I don't have sufficient time to dedicate to reading entire papers ATM. Audio is a hobby for me, and any research papers I read are currently in a different field of study. I have made a lot of positive changes in my system, setup and room based on Harman Research, when I have had time to read the material.

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-- Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)


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post #359 of 665 Old 01-01-2009, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

There are recent indications that CR may be upgrading its loudspeaker test methods.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...n&dmode=source

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post14619094

Yes, I was aware that Consumer Reports has decided to modernize their loudspeaker measurements to better reflect how the loudspeakers sound. If they do it right, they could quickly have the best measurements in the audio review industry, which would do a service to the industry and the consumer. As Floyd Toole likes to say, " there is more useful information on the side of a tire than is typically found in a loudspeaker specification sheet."

Cheers,
Sean Olive

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post #360 of 665 Old 01-01-2009, 04:29 PM
 
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Speaking of research papers, Sean (if I may call you that), what are your thoughts on this review of potential pitfalls of 'MUSHRA' and quality-evaluation-type blind tests, versus blind difference tests, by Zielinsky, Rumsey & Bech?

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14393
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