Burn-in: Real Or Imagined??? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

Since when do i not only have to have all this incredibly high end gear and a PhD to understand the basic laws of physics? I have been in the industry PROFESSIONALLY (that means i get paid for it) for 18 years. I have taught classes and graduated from of one of the most respected Audio classes in the industry.

Where are your qualifications other than going to Granite audio and watching them play with the test gear that you have no idea what they are testing?

Your horse seems to be getting higher all the time steve.

My only qualifications are subjective listening and setup of my system, knowing my system, enjoying my system, and using my ear/brain which the Lord gave me.
It makes me happy regardless of arguing by folks that my ear/brain is all placebo.

I dont' pretend to know what I don't know. Some of you do. You have great vidoe qualifications. You are a really nice guy. You have been a lotta help to folks in the video industry. But thats where your qualifications end. You are no more qualified to be an expert "objectively" re burn-in than I am. David Reich, former owner of Classe, who as a Theta engineer designs Theta products including the Enterprises, is. He advises re burn-in. And my subjective listening has verified this at least with some Theta products including the Enterprise amps. Good enough for me. if not good enough for you thats fine, you are entitled to your own opinion. But don't think your horse is any higher than mine. HA!

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post #32 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:25 PM
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Steve, you asked a question in this thread. I answered with my opinion and why i think it is not. Are you going to offer any insight as to why you think it is so?

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post #33 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

His horse is nowhere near as high as oneobgyn. He cannot add anything constructive to a technical discussion because he isn't technical. He believes in magic. Being insecure and miserable doesn't help either.

Now I would like for oneobgyn to explain to me in his own words how cables can burn in and how it's possible for electrons to burn in. I have low expectations of this happening, but there is a first time for everything I guess.

--Regards,

If I am insecure and miserable its only after reading your asenine comments!

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post #34 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:31 PM
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But thats where your qualifications end. You are no more qualified to be an expert "objectively" re burn-in than I am.

I Disagree. I do not own high end gear, but guess what... they follow the same friggin laws! From DC to light, we have consistent laws in our universe. And i have observed lots, have worked with amp and power supply design guys for years.

And as far as audio knowledge, Syn Aud Con is one of the greatest brain trusts that there is. And the most fun there always pops up whever any of the exotic things here that you swear by is mentioned. We referred to them as Dr. cables. since you need a Dr. salary to afford them.


I will say to you Steve, offer one iota of proof. and measurement, any white paper or even email that states what happens to cause the sonics to improve and i will shut up. (provided the paper or email is not total gobbledy gook garbage)

And again i ask, how come burn in ONLY results in improvements. Why has nobody ever liked the sound less?

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post #35 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

When talking about the differences between subtle and major... it is pretty simple.

A. "I am really enjoying my new system. Over time, it seems to have just tightened up a bit. not sure what it is, i just seem to like it more every day."

B. "Wow, over the last 8 days of running the system 24/7 with a test disc, it is like i have an entirely different sound."

how come with burn in it is always better? Since the sound so RADICALLY changes... isn't it logical that some folks might think that it got worse over burn in?

Dizzman, legitimate point.

As an audiophile, when one makes some system improvement that moves you forward, its easy to say that its so much better than before. Thats how it feels to one like myself or even OB. Its magic. Its wonderful. ITS EMOTIONAL.

But yes, if you were to chart what I've done in my system over the years, and somehow give it a grade scale of 1-100, the improvements would be much smaller percentages I'm sure. And at times I've tried an adjustment or tweak for months and gone backwards and some time later made the proper adjustment to get back where I was and even more forward.

Subjective audio is emotional. If you add up all the adjectives as one's system goes forward sonically, over time, the adjectives percentage add up to way more than the whole. I readily admit that. But audio is a passion - those that really enjoy it can't take the passion out of it. Passionate terms will be used to describe system improvements. But read my forum signature which warns the wary to beware. HA!

But no question in my mind - my change from Aerial 10Ts to Aerial 9s, and now from Bryston 7Bs to Theta Enterprises, has unlocked for me the secret of audio youth. How that translates percentagewise I don't know - its emotional and enjoyment for me, not percentages. I do percentages in my law practice only.

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post #36 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

Ob does not claim massive improvements. he has stated numerous times that he is no longer entirely sure of some of that stuff. Just that his system works for him and he is happy with that.


As I said to Mike, so also to you, relax it is only goneten


BTW goneten, what Dizzman says re my feelings about cables is exactly that. Please try to show up more often so that you know what you are talking about
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post #37 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

And again i ask, how come burn in ONLY results in improvements. Why has nobody ever liked the sound less?

But I have. Not from burn-in of speakers or Theta gear. But from some system and cable changes. Years ago, pre Granite Audio, I upgraded from Transparent Supra to Ultra speaker cables - what a rip off that whole Transparent scene was for me. I blew it. I really didn't perceive my system sounding better with the new speaker cables. API Power Wedge Ultra balanced power conditioner - system sounded better upon demo, but living with it, took out some of the life. I've made mistakes setting bass crossovers that fooled me, too. Many,many others. I don't have to be right all the time. This is a hobby. This is about enjoyment of the music. I think some of you get much more enjoyment out of arguing than the music. I mean, you have NO Subjective experience listening to high end gear and whether some burn-in makes some difference as sometimes recommended by some manufacturers. You do not engineer, design or conduct over time listening tests of high end gear. yet you have formulated strong opinions based on lack of subjective knowledge - only your limited objective belief for which your qualifications aren't much more than mine (which are admittedly objectively zilch).

But I still like ya and know you're a great guy.

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post #38 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 04:51 PM
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There is no type of equipment (including power cords) for which I have not heard the effects of break-in (better term perhaps than burn-in if there is a plasma TV involved).

The effect is not due to acclimating since my normal procedure when getting a new display piece for the store is to set it up in a locked room during the initial burn-in period. I pop in for a minute or so once a day to see how things are coming along. At some point I hear things improved to the point where I am ready to have customers listen to the equipment. I suppose it's possible this is due to my expectations but it is certainly not due to getting used to the sound nor to warm-up. Some units take hundreds of hours to achieve their best sound but most items are at least acceptable within 50 to 100 hours.

BTW: I do have a physics degree, although I really don't think it's very meaningful to this discussion.
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post #39 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 05:19 PM
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OK, valid observation. THen are you able to, (or do you care) offer a suggestion as to what is happening to improve said sound? I am not asking in an antagonistic manner, i am just wondering what it could be.

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post #40 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 06:20 PM
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Actually Steve I have a degree in Engineering (graduated first in my department and was class marshal at graduation), and taught college (actually university) freshman physics to put myself through law school. I wasn't even a nerd. Could have done a lot better if I didn't devote my first two years being on our hockey team, the only division one sport we had. I certainly did bring the team average up a bit.

Science and engineering like the law are constantly changing and new stuff is constantly being discovered and incorrect prior rationales replaced by the new. Engineers often think they know it all and can eplain anyhing from their experiencial base. Audio is ant art as well as a science. Things are tried often without a real reason and listening results in an adoption of the thing for which at the time a real rational is not known. Orienting parts on a board at an angle and viola better. Then look for an explanation, radiated fields interfering with something else perhaps by induction. But it can't be right. Right you morons, your engineers say it can't be, so it can't. Yea right. Try doing nothing with a circvuit different other than using a very very expensive board like Teflon over standard but high quality junk. rationale or why the better board material works better in wide bandwidth ircuits such as Spectral. sure there is. But the board effct doesn't even show up in standard circuit design parameters.try an oil fillled cap which measures in many parameters worse than say a mylar or polyprop. But in the right place he oil fillled sounds better. doesn't enter into any design calcs.

Try Dr. Keith Johnson, John Curl and other brilliant designers. I've really had enough of this. You naysayers just babble on in your ignorant bliss.

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post #41 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

But Curt, per your theory, the ears and brain adjust, and it all sounds the same.
Burn-in, break-in, different amps, different components, different speakers - they all sound the same when you keep on extrapolating your illogical theory logical.

I don't think I've ever said that all amps sound the same. I did say recently that three of us techs (well, two techs and one saleman! ) compared a Bryston 3B to a generic Korean made amp with the same basic specs, and there was no difference that I could hear between the two.

I've NEVER said all speakers sound the same either.

I compare the cabling/breakin/obscure tweak stuff similar to your car driving better after you washed and vacuumed it. I've experienced that, but I also know that putting the car on a dyno before and after washing it will yield the identical results.


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post #42 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 07:12 PM
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i really don't see the point of this thread. is it just to "talk" or have something to do? i mean seriously, its obvious from the first post this would turn into an arguement thread, something that really has been discussed and re-discussed a thousand times over. amps sound the same, cables are the same, breakin, blah, blah, blah. these threads only start flames and i think that many would agree with me that they always end up being closed because it gets nasty and insulting. i understand steve that you made this thread so "the usual suspects" wouldn't hijack your thread, but what did you expect to get out of this one?


now, don't get me wrong i know what its like to ask a question and post a thread and have the naysayers down your throat about something, but threads like these are really a waste a bandwith. lately there have been too many pointless threads that are grown adults arguing about the same things over and over again. im not trying to go down anyone's throat, but this forum has been getting pride involved a little too much lately and i think everyone should just relax a bit and let humility take its place.

btw, i do agree with you that break-in does make a difference.

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post #43 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 08:16 PM
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Now there's a laid back Canadian answer if I ever saw one. Lay down the weapons, can't we all just get along (or in BC... a-'bong')?

What's wrong with discussion?

As is to be expected by the scientific side (which includes me), all I want is for someone to show me that cables, burn in, etc makes a difference. I'll forever shut up and will switch camps. That's why we keep discussing it, at least I do. Perhaps someone in the tweaker camp CAN show me that there's a difference. I'm still waiting though.


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post #44 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Anthony A. View Post

i understand steve that you made this thread so "the usual suspects" wouldn't hijack your thread, but what did you expect to get out of this one?

Exactly what you said, so the usual suspects wouldn't hijack the Theta Enterprise thread!!!@@ Ain't that a good enough reason?

Besides, nothin' wrong with a discussion re break-in. I disagree a lot with Dizzman, but he puts all his cards on the table and doesn't hide anything - unlike some. I respect that.

Speco has disappeared. Speco where are you??? Come on Speco - you can answer the two questions posted at the start of this thread???

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post #45 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

Now there's a laid back Canadian answer if I ever saw one. Lay down the weapons, can't we all just get along (or in BC... a-'bong')?

What's wrong with discussion?

As is to be expected by the scientific side (which includes me), all I want is for someone to show me that cables, burn in, etc makes a difference. I'll forever shut up and will switch camps. That's why we keep discussing it, at least I do. Perhaps someone in the tweaker camp CAN show me that there's a difference. I'm still waiting though.

Show you! If someone came up with a detailed physics answer explaining this phenomena, you would deride it like the government derides UFOs!!!@@@

If you came up with a physics answer for this phenomena and didn't hear the improvement with burn-in of a high end audio component, you would say that your mind was fooling yourself and go by your supposed "objective" argument.

So long as you spend your time arguing and not listening, burn-in will be non-existent to you regardless of whether it exists. TOUCHE!!!@@@

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post #46 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

As is to be expected by the scientific side (which includes me), all I want is for someone to show me that cables, burn in, etc makes a difference. I'll forever shut up and will switch camps. That's why we keep discussing it, at least I do. Perhaps someone in the tweaker camp CAN show me that there's a difference. I'm still waiting though.

i'ts not like you have not been offered the opportunity. we 'talked' about you traveling to my room a little while back; you were going to get back to me......so don't point any fingers other than at yourself.

get your arse down here, bring your cables, and we'll settle this.

with all due respect, of course.

i've got some single malt we can enjoy after the issues are resolved.
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post #47 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 06:33 AM
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You're right, I've been remiss in getting down there. Is it July already? Dang!


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post #48 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 07:56 AM
 
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Cables can't burn in. Electrons can't burn in.

Never have and never will.

There is no evidence to support the contention that cables burn in because there is none.

--Regards,
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post #49 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Please show you are serious about discussing burn-in of components, speakes and accessories/cabling by discussing it in this thread, instead of taking over other threads here at this forum. Thanks.

I ask that folks answer the following several questions on this subject:

1. Objective/scientific, even psychological/marketing information justifying your opinion on this subject.

2. Experience with your own audio and home theater components, etc. Did you hear sonic changes or see video changes with burn-in or not? If yes, over how long a period of time. With what components?

The only thing I've heard burn-in with is speakers. I've never seen or heard it in any other equipment.

My newer philosophy on these topics is, "who gives a rats ass as long as it functions as advertised and it sounds great." It really doesn't concern me whether or not burn-in exists, as long as the features and build quality I payed for do exist.

Here is my justification for buying the equipment I buy, "it is my money, and I'll spend it on what I like."

P.S. I'm not intending to be rude towards anyone, I'm just being blunt.

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
-- Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)


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post #50 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 09:21 AM
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There are two constants always reported with burn-in:

1. Burn-in always improves the sound.

When you buy something for its sound, and that sound undergoes a change, it has just as much chance of changing for the better as it does changing for the worse. Yet burn-in always changes for the better.

How does burn-in know what your personal taste is so it can change the sound in that specific direction?

2. Burn-in automatically stops when it sounds right.

When the sound of something is changing, there's no reason it won't continue past what you like. For example: over the course of weeks, the sound of a new component starts to mellow out in the highs while the bass continues to tighten. At some point this continuing change should yield mushy, rolled-off highs and etched, overly-tight bass. But that has never ever been reported to happen.

How does burn-in know what your personal taste is so it can stop changing when the sound is best to you?

Of course, the alternative explanation to the above is that you're simply getting used to the sound. But that's too bizarre and unrealistic to be seriously considered by audiophiles.

Sanjay

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post #51 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 10:34 AM
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Proving that burn in exists and that boutique cables really do work is very simple. First start with presenting objective facts to the other party, the best way to practice this is (actually there are two, but you may not have access to a canine):

1. Find a wall in your house that is completely bare, place an average size chair right in front of it, with enough room for you to sit down and face the wall. Present your argument to the wall.

2. Find your dog. Sit him down and present your argument to your dog. This one is tough because he may turn his head to the left or right, like dogs do, but it is much more realistic, in fact nearly exactly the response that can be expected from these completely delusional people.


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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

There are two constants always reported with burn-in:

1. Burn-in always improves the sound.

When you buy something for its sound, and that sound undergoes a change, it has just as much chance of changing for the better as it does changing for the worse. Yet burn-in always changes for the better.

How does burn-in know what your personal taste is so it can change the sound in that specific direction?

2. Burn-in automatically stops when it sounds right.

When the sound of something is changing, there's no reason it won't continue past what you like. For example: over the course of weeks, the sound of a new component starts to mellow out in the highs while the bass continues to tighten. At some point this continuing change should yield mushy, rolled-off highs and etched, overly-tight bass. But that has never ever been reported to happen.

How does burn-in know what your personal taste is so it can stop changing when the sound is best to you?

Of course, the alternative explanation to the above is that you're simply getting used to the sound. But that's too bizarre and unrealistic to be seriously considered by audiophiles.

Sanjay

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post #52 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

There are two constants always reported with burn-in:

1. Burn-in always improves the sound.

When you buy something for its sound, and that sound undergoes a change, it has just as much chance of changing for the better as it does changing for the worse. Yet burn-in always changes for the better.

How does burn-in know what your personal taste is so it can change the sound in that specific direction?

2. Burn-in automatically stops when it sounds right.

When the sound of something is changing, there's no reason it won't continue past what you like. For example: over the course of weeks, the sound of a new component starts to mellow out in the highs while the bass continues to tighten. At some point this continuing change should yield mushy, rolled-off highs and etched, overly-tight bass. But that has never ever been reported to happen.

How does burn-in know what your personal taste is so it can stop changing when the sound is best to you?

Of course, the alternative explanation to the above is that you're simply getting used to the sound. But that's too bizarre and unrealistic to be seriously considered by audiophiles.

Sanjay

Hi Sanjay;

I think "You" just put in words on this Post what I have been thinking.

Terry

My "New" Home Theatre Pics 3/22/2012.

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post #53 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 10:57 AM
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Im with ya here steve.
I had a "significant" improvement after around 200-300hrs of break in with my 9s.
It was enough so that my wife even noticed it, and for what its worth, shes far from an audiophile, or someone who even cares, but one day, out of the blue, she commented that she thought I had done something else like buying a new amp or "something", she even went as far as to go look and make sure all my gear was the same.
I laughed, and new right then and there, I was not imagining the improvement that, coincidently, and eerily, matched exactly the sound I was looking for!
I kid just slightly there, but the bass did in fact tighten, and the soundstage opened up considerably, which is what my wife noticed immediately.
No science can EVER prove my wife wrong!
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post #54 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longtimelurker View Post

Proving that burn in exists and that boutique cables really do work is very simple.

i know your post is not meant to be taken seriously. but your above comment really goes to the heart of the issue.

subjectivists (people like myself who believe their ears) have no need for proof, subjectivists are not asking for feedback from objectivists, and subjectivists are already happy with their point of view.

in fact; subjectivists are not even against deciding that all cables sound the same or that electronics don't break-in......if that is what their ears tell them.

subjectivists simply would appreciate being allowed to discuss their perceptions without a ration of excrement from those who don't see the world the same way.

i realize that this will never happen here.
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post #55 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 12:27 PM
 
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Burn-in always improves the sound.

Actually I would disagree in part to this statement. Case in point is most ARC gear which out of the box IMO tend to sound better than the next 100 hours or so of burn-in
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post #56 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 12:28 PM
 
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I've never seen or heard it in any other equipment.

You obviously have never owned any tube components.
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post #57 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 12:33 PM
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i do want to point out mike that the title of this thread is;

Burn-in: Real Or Imagined???

So that to me says that this is a space for a discourse. Of course it figures that the folks who (on the objectivist side) take it to extremes are not here.

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Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...

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post #58 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

You obviously have never owned any tube components.

Yep. I don't own or use tube gear. I was considering ARC gear, but that latest Stereophile review of the 110 really settled my mind that it isn't worth the risk of getting such terribly matched amplifiers or stereochannels in a single piece of equipment.... For now I'll continue to stick with gear that is more easily matched.

I was impressed by the BAT gear at the HE2007 and would consider those, but I have to admit, that recent ARC review has scared me off for now. When I become convinced that I can buy tube gear and be completely assured that the channels are matched to a reasonable degree, I'll reconsider. If I hear any break-in, I'll make sure to add that to any future statements.

I haven't used tubes since my father got rid of our early 70s Fisher receiver when I was 12 or so (21 years ago). Back then I was too young to consider things such as burn-in or listening critically, so I don't remember anything like that occurring.

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post #59 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 12:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Yep. I don't own or use tube gear. I was considering ARC gear, but that latest Stereophile review of the 110 really settled my mind that it isn't worth the risk of getting such terribly matched amplifiers or stereochannels in a single piece of equipment.... For now I'll continue to stick with gear that is more easily matched.

I was impressed by the BAT gear at the HE2007 and would consider those, but I have to admit, that recent ARC review has scared me off for now. When I become convinced that I can buy tube gear and be completely assured that the channels are matched to a reasonable degree, I'll reconsider. If I hear any break-in, I'll make sure to add that to any future statements.

I haven't used tubes since my father got rid of our early 70s Fisher receiver when I was 12 or so (21 years ago). Back then I was too young to consider things such as burn-in or listening critically, so I don't remember anything like that occurring.

You need some serious lessons Que

First advice is to forget about reviews and ALWAYS let YOUR ears and YOUR wallet be YOUR judge
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post #60 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 01:14 PM
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It's more likely because they have no interest in engaging a provocateur like yourself, Steve. Had someone more credible started this thread I suspect they would participate. But I'm sure they both understand that your intentions never are fully noble when you start threads like these.

And just to stay on topic: I have conceded in the past that I'm willing to believe in speaker burn-in, though I'd love to see it demonstrated. I also believe that burn-in of cables and solid-state electronics is nothing more than placebo/mental.

As for tubes---they probably never stop changing, honestly, but I don't know enough about them to quantify how much they might drift and whether or not that would be audible.

And that will do it for me.

Michael
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