Burn-in: Real Or Imagined??? - Page 22 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 665 Old 01-25-2009, 07:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Randybes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You know you guys are killing science with EGO. No wonder we have intelligent design. Earl, good for you for not coming back! Whatever happened to attacking the argument not the person? Or is it me? I see it as please accept my argument or you are an idiot-whatever. I think I may convert to a subjectivist view.
Randybes is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 665 Old 01-25-2009, 09:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
krabapple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: in a state bordered by Kentucky and Maine
Posts: 5,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randybes View Post

I think I may convert to a subjectivist view.

Sorry, how would that make any sort of sense?

I've been to a few conferences in my own field (biology) where the arguments got heated. It didn't for a moment lead me to consider becoming a creationist. Nor did science seem to be in any mortal danger.

I'm also wondering how anyone can be sure anyone has 'left' here, besides a private communication to that effect.....
krabapple is offline  
post #633 of 665 Old 01-25-2009, 11:14 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1006 Post(s)
Liked: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Sorry, how would that make any sort of sense?

Not to speak for Randy, but I don't think he was being literal about converting to subjectivism. Just expressing frustration, which I share.

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #634 of 665 Old 01-25-2009, 11:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
jj_0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the rain
Posts: 752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

Todd, I don't understand: what's the difference between a mode and a resonance? In my usage, both are the same, and are produced by self-reinforcing reflections or inputs. Or, mathematically speaking, both are eigenfunctions of the wave equation with boundary conditions.

--Andre

Indeed, and you can add false "boundaries" with radiators with delayed, filtered, processed, etc, signal applied. Needless to say they aren't real, physical boundaries belonging to the room.

James D. (jj) Johnston
jj_0001 is offline  
post #635 of 665 Old 01-26-2009, 05:25 AM
Senior Member
 
gedlee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 342
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Randy and all

The system here messed up and I was not notified of any postings to this thread for nearly two weeks. I did not stay away for any other reason than I did not know that a discussion was going on. I thought it dies as so many of these arguments do.

Hence I am not at all up to speed on the discussion, too much has passed. But I did notice that JJ had some comments to me about "smoothness' in a LF fitting algorithm.

Smoothness of the response in any room in the statitistical region is always a fixed quantity - as Schreoder proves "66% of the time it is between +6 dB and -11 dB ..." so of course absolute smoothness in any large venue is not going to happen. But in a small room, in the modal range, the "smoothness" is much worse than what it is in the statistical region - fewer modes greater variance. The LF algorithm for setting up the subs will seek to make the small room much more like the large room or much more like the "smoothness" found in the statistical region, but it is doubtful that it could ever be "smoother" than the large room (although with multiple subs this is not a given and it could be the case, but I seriuosly doubt it). So setting the subs to yield the "smoothest" spatial and spectral response is most likely going to yield the same statistics as a large room, which is not actually all that smooth at all. Its all relative.

Earl R. Geddes
GedLee
gedlee is offline  
post #636 of 665 Old 01-26-2009, 05:30 AM
Senior Member
 
gedlee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 342
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

Todd, I don't understand: what's the difference between a mode and a resonance? In my usage, both are the same, and are produced by self-reinforcing reflections or inputs. Or, mathematically speaking, both are eigenfunctions of the wave equation with boundary conditions.

--Andre

Andre - not to speak for Todd, but a mode and a resonance are not the same in physics jargon. One is the spectral location of the Eigenfrequency and the other is the spatial shape of the Eigenmode. They relate to the same modal solution set, but are different manifestations. In math we would say that the mode is the solution set or function associated with a specific characteristic value of the solution.

Earl R. Geddes
GedLee
gedlee is offline  
post #637 of 665 Old 01-26-2009, 06:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Randybes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Not to speak for Randy, but I don't think he was being literal about converting to subjectivism. Just expressing frustration, which I share.

Sanjay

Correct.
Randybes is offline  
post #638 of 665 Old 01-26-2009, 06:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Randybes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post


I'm also wondering how anyone can be sure anyone has 'left' here, besides a private communication to that effect.....

I wasn't sure and I was wrong.
Randybes is offline  
post #639 of 665 Old 01-26-2009, 07:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
krabapple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: in a state bordered by Kentucky and Maine
Posts: 5,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Not to speak for Randy, but I don't think he was being literal about converting to subjectivism. Just expressing frustration, which I share.

Sanjay

I didn't think it was literal; I just don't get how one would go, even figuratively, from 'I'm frustrated with the tenor of the debate between experts' to 'it almost makes me want to embrace pseudoscience'.

Earl: if you aren't getting new post notices, perhaps check that your email software isn't auto-tagging AVSForum notices as 'junk mail'. I've seen that happen.
krabapple is offline  
post #640 of 665 Old 01-26-2009, 07:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Randybes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I didn't think it was literal; I just don't get how one would go, even figuratively, from 'I'm frustrated with the tenor of the debate between experts' to 'it almost makes me want to embrace pseudoscience'.

Earl: if you aren't getting new post notices, perhaps check that your email software isn't auto-tagging AVSForum notices as 'junk mail'. I've seen that happen.

Let's go back to regular debate on stereo bass. I just was disappointed in the tone of the debate and the personal attacks. If that doesn't upset you, then that's fine-it does me because I thnk an outside observer might see it as less than professional. That was my point. I would expect it at a Texas school board meeting!

However, just to clarify, what I said about becoming a subjectivist was hyperbole.
Randybes is offline  
post #641 of 665 Old 01-26-2009, 08:24 AM
Senior Member
 
gedlee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 342
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Earl: if you aren't getting new post notices, perhaps check that your email software isn't auto-tagging AVSForum notices as 'junk mail'. I've seen that happen.

The thing is that I have gotten ALL of them since yesterday, but nothing before that until Jan 18th. So its not any filters on my end unless they change, but I'm not changing them.

Earl R. Geddes
GedLee
gedlee is offline  
post #642 of 665 Old 01-26-2009, 08:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
bwaslo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 822
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randybes View Post

I thnk an outside observer might see it as less than professional.

Given the title of this thread, it seems unlikely anyone looking for a professional take on stereo bass or room modes would stumble into it. Anyone thought of starting a new thread with a relevant title?

DIY Synergy horn spreadsheet
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

XSim -free crossover designer and simulator
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bwaslo is offline  
post #643 of 665 Old 01-26-2009, 12:20 PM
Member
 
cap'n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post

Andre - not to speak for Todd, but a mode and a resonance are not the same in physics jargon. One is the spectral location of the Eigenfrequency and the other is the spatial shape of the Eigenmode. They relate to the same modal solution set, but are different manifestations. In math we would say that the mode is the solution set or function associated with a specific characteristic value of the solution.

I agree with this. FWIW, in my dictionary:

Mode: physics: "Any of numerous patterns of wave motion"

Resonance: physics:"The increase in amplitude of oscilation of an electric or mechanical sytem due to a periodic force whose frequency is equal or very close to the natural undamped frequency of the system".

A related question is whether you can add or remove modes from a room. if you define the mode as strictly the individual standing waves series for each set of walls, then you can't. If the modes are considered as the combined standing wave pattern for all axial, tangential and oblique paths, then i think you can remove them at least. As an example, if you add sources at randomized locations throughout the space you can make the the response arbitrarily flat (spatially). I modelled this in a previous paper using 5000 subs in a small room - quite flat I assure you!
I'm not so sure you can make the room have MORE modes (consider one sub in the corner, exciting all modes equally as a reference, then add more subs)...?
cap'n is offline  
post #644 of 665 Old 01-26-2009, 12:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
jj_0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the rain
Posts: 752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 38
I'm out of this thread. It's not worth the effort to argue about other people's straw-man proposals.

Earl, I pretty much (but not quite in the edges) agree with your last statement in most ways. It would require a blackboard to explain and I think most people here would want to stuff the e^jwt's up our noses if we did it here.

James D. (jj) Johnston
jj_0001 is offline  
post #645 of 665 Old 01-26-2009, 12:36 PM
Member
 
cap'n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

Given the title of this thread, it seems unlikely anyone looking for a professional take on stereo bass or room modes would stumble into it. Anyone thought of starting a new thread with a relevant title?

Good idea, how about "Stereo Bass: real or imagined"?
cap'n is offline  
post #646 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 05:40 AM
 
goneten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Oh well, at least after 22 pages we can agree that cable burn-in is true. No ?

Oops.

Regards,
goneten is offline  
post #647 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 06:25 AM
Senior Member
 
gedlee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 342
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I still don't get notified of posts in this thread.

Todd, I agree that I don't see how any electronic means can "add modes". If there were a lot of them, like the walls were covered, then one could simulate a mode and it would begin to approach a true mode, but a limited number of sources could only roughly approximate such a thing.

Also, I don't think that you can "remove" a mode from a room. You can setup situations that won't excite it, but its still there. And in fact, no matter what you do it will get excited in a transient way, albeit talking transients and LF modes is kind of silly.

Earl R. Geddes
GedLee
gedlee is offline  
post #648 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 07:57 AM
Member
 
cap'n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post

I still don't get notified of posts in this thread.

Todd, I agree that I don't see how any electronic means can "add modes". If there were a lot of them, like the walls were covered, then one could simulate a mode and it would begin to approach a true mode, but a limited number of sources could only roughly approximate such a thing.

Also, I don't think that you can "remove" a mode from a room. You can setup situations that won't excite it, but its still there. And in fact, no matter what you do it will get excited in a transient way, albeit talking transients and LF modes is kind of silly.


I have also pondered the difference between "removing" and cancelling or not exciting a mode.
cap'n is offline  
post #649 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 08:32 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1006 Post(s)
Liked: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

Given the title of this thread, it seems unlikely anyone looking for a professional take on stereo bass or room modes would stumble into it. Anyone thought of starting a new thread with a relevant title?

That would be a good idea, starting around post #416.

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #650 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 11:36 AM
Advanced Member
 
jj_0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the rain
Posts: 752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by cap'n View Post

I have also pondered the difference between "removing" and cancelling or not exciting a mode.

Well, the physics won't generally permit you to remove energy from the mode, unless we go to the absorbtion stuff that I still regard as way too complex for the consumer. So, you don't excite it, or you excite it in a way, using phase or delay, etc, that drives it into a different behavior.

But barring adding absorbtion to the room, or using a very complex system, it's not going anywhere unless you actually eliminate the energy storage in the room. That's what modes are all about, energy storage, when they arise from the physical room arrangement.

HOWEVER: Now we have active devices, things like loudspeakers, that can also arrange to put energy into the room, even at frequencies where the room doesn't store annoying amounts.

And, once again, modes are due to the reflections from the walls.

You can simulate reflections at farther (nearer would be cool (but my thiotimeolene doesn't work yet) ) distances by using delays. You can do this in any number of ways, some natural and some artificial. Again, I point to the method of images, as cranky and complex as it is, for more evidence that this is a valid interpretation.

There is one wart: The difference in the radiation pattern as reflected from the wall vs. emitted from a woofer.

I submit that at bass frequencies, the difference between the wall (planar reflection) and the speaker (simulated reflection from point source) is moot.

So, barring useless semantic dickering, you can add modes. No, they certainly aren't originally present.

Now, if you all wish to argue otherwise, perhaps we should start a new thread on linear algebra?

N.B. "nodes" are not part of this particular discussion, should you read "node" it's evidence that jj's finger did not move quite far enough to the right while typing "mode".

James D. (jj) Johnston
jj_0001 is offline  
post #651 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 01:57 PM
Member
 
cap'n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
This is really interesting and I also think it should be a new thread. Also thinking it would be a very interesting AES workshop and/or paper session. When I get mroe time I would like to try simulating some ideas. To me, I need to see some results. So, I would like to see a spatial plot showing the added modes. That would be very convincing.
cap'n is offline  
post #652 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 02:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Randybes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I don't mind starting a thread, but should it be here or in the audio theory area?
Randybes is offline  
post #653 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 02:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
krabapple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: in a state bordered by Kentucky and Maine
Posts: 5,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Theory.
krabapple is offline  
post #654 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 02:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Randybes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Theory.

Hopefully, the participants will post here-


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post15668293
Randybes is offline  
post #655 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 03:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1006 Post(s)
Liked: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randybes View Post

I don't mind starting a thread, but should it be here or in the audio theory area?

Can't the mods break off part of this thread to start a new thread?

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #656 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 03:34 PM
Member
 
cap'n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randybes View Post

Hopefully, the participants will post here-


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post15668293

I am on to this new thread, let's see if it flies...
cap'n is offline  
post #657 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 04:15 PM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have no comment on this.
JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #658 of 665 Old 01-27-2009, 07:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Randybes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,622
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Can't the mods break off part of this thread to start a new thread?

Sanjay

That would be great if they could
Randybes is offline  
post #659 of 665 Old 01-28-2009, 03:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
QueueCumber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Farmer McGregor's Garden
Posts: 6,089
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
They can, you just need to ask whoever is modding this particular forum.

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
-- Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
QueueCumber is offline  
post #660 of 665 Old 01-28-2009, 11:11 PM
Newbie
 
AudioGrasshopper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Living in Los Angeles. For those pretentious and crabby, originally from East coast.
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post

I can't ever guarantee you a demo YOU will find "convincing" since that's a preference issue, and you've already seen one paper, and illegimately dismissed it. I doubt, then, that you will ever be convinced.

I'll quote a person who said to me, at the 'First Conference in Audio in Digital Times", then, when I was showing (at the time) 4 bit/sample perceptual coding: "Mr. Johnston, that is never, ever going to amount to anything."

You remind me of him.

Cheerio, yourself.

Dearest JJ_0001,

Based on your reply, I am convinced Cap'n understands the concepts; presents them in an intelligent light; and believe it would be best for the readers in this blog for you to move on and reconsider posting contradictory, circular, and largely academic concepts.

It's clear, time to move on JJ, let others offer insightful contributions. Perhaps you should consider starting another post about material more familiar to your knowledge base such as a comparison between DTS, Dolby, and Logic7. I would be very interested to read about your findings in this context. Please let us know.
AudioGrasshopper is offline  
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off