Burn-in: Real Or Imagined??? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mike lavigne View Post

just once i'd like to see an objectivist say;

".....ya know, i've had lots of high end electronics that i purchased new; i listened to them for quite awhile and i never heard any significant changes as they aged.....so i must conclude that changes during break-in are a myth."

or....

"i did quite a few cable comparisons of some of the more spendy cables with basic cheap cables and i never could hear any differneces in my SOTA system. therefore; i think all cables pretty much sound alike and spending big bucks for cables is crazy".

if they did say that; i would respect it and then we'd have something to actually talk about regarding performance as opposed to position taking. i could then ask about which gear or which cables he was referring to; find out about his system and methods, and then i could draw my own conclusions about what he said. we would be considering opinions and perceptions about performance of specific gear.

this is what should be happening with questions on this or any forum.

there would actually be some VALUE to the bandwidth used.......as opposed to this continual rehash of crap.

BUT.......

it will never happen here for 2 reasons;

1. if (and that is a big IF) they listen they will hear what any listener hears.
2. it is easier to spout dogma than to do the work. for some reason people love to proclaim what is not possible without ever investigating for themselves.

I've done those things. So far I haven't heard the things people claim about sound differences. You know that though. I wasted $3K on cables with no benefit to be found, and haven't heard burn in on any of my components to date. I heard more change in the sound of a system when using my old Carver receiver from Highschool and turning the "sonic hologram" button on and off....

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post #92 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Try not to tell that, in person, to one of the foremost researcher in perceptual coding, and acoustics in the field:

http://home.comcast.net/~retired_old_jj/

i would not only tell him exactly that; since he works for Microsoft here in Redmond i would invite him over for a listen.......but none of that codec gap crap......it would be vinyl.

i looked at his picture on the link......i may have met him at one of our local audio club meetings (i'm not 100% sure).
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post #93 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 09:32 PM
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Thats the thing, i'll forget the solid state amp burn in for a minute just for arguments sake, lets focus on cable burn in and boutique cable vs. appropriately gauged zip cord (balanced/unbalanced notwithstanding).

I have NEVER tested those things, ever. I will never test cable A vs. cable B (again, gauge appropriate, balancing disregarded), or will never test burn in of a cable, because physics I learned as a non-physics major 12 years ago still tell me that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

Its the same reason serious research money is not being spent on faster than light travel, I can only prove on paper that it is not possible, as I can only prove on paper that there are NO differences in the sound, you either believe or you dont. I am however CERTAIN that dropping 3k or 20k on cables will make someone believe they are better. The marketers of some of this junk have obviously consulted with psychologists.

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Originally Posted by mike lavigne View Post

BUT.......

it will never happen here for 2 reasons;

1. if (and that is a big IF) they listen they will hear what any listener hears.
2. it is easier to spout dogma than to do the work. for some reason people love to proclaim what is not possible without ever investigating for themselves.

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post #94 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by scottsol View Post

with products from good designers it is inevitable that if there is a break-in change it will result in better -not worse- sound.

"Better" based on the designer's personal tastes. How can he predict that consumers who bought his gear for the way it sounds will like it more if that sound changes? How would the designer keep it from changing past its best sound?

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post #95 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by anupmc View Post

Who says burn-in always improves the sound? Some vocal minority???

Indeed, audiophiles. Reports of burn it are always positive.
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Take a look on Audiogon, lots and lots of equipment for sale after just a couple of months of use... not all from buyer's remourse or changed circumstances!

Wow, and you accuse me of making a lame argument. BTW, I looked on Audiogon and didn't see anyone who was selling their gear because they didn't like the way the sound changed. Can you point to a link where this is mentioned? Thanx.
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when a manufacturer prototypes a piece of gear, hes going to put it through its paces and get the unit well burned-in as he develops it. I could imagine a final prototype having 100s of hours of burn-in before the designer is satisfied and the design is frozen.

Why would they then turn around and sell it with sub-optimal sound?
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Does anyone here actually believe that a brand-new piece of equipment fresh off the factory floor sounds identical to a 6-month old unit thats been used daily?

Of course. What do you think changes in 6 months?

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post #96 of 665 Old 07-15-2007, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I've done those things. So far I haven't heard the things people claim about sound differences. You know that though. I wasted $3K on cables with no benefit to be found, and haven't heard burn in on any of my components to date. I heard more change in the sound of a system when using my old Carver receiver from Highschool and turning the "sonic hologram" button on and off....

Queue;

i appreciate the feedback with your personal listening experiences.

please give a few details regarding the cables you tried, the gear that seemed to not change with breakin and the system context......also how long ago you had these experiences.

if you prefer; just get into one issue initially.....or only what's reasonable.

regards,

Mike
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post #97 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Indeed, audiophiles. Reports of burn it are always positive

Very few people are actually going to broadcast that they don't like the way something sounds after they've spent money on it. Simple logic.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Wow, and you accuse me of making a lame argument. BTW, I looked on Audiogon and didn't see anyone who was selling their gear because they didn't like the way the sound changed.

Right ... so if I'm trying to sell something on Audiogon, I'll advertise that it sounds crap?? Come on, use some imagination please, or at least a better argument.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Why would they then turn around and sell it with sub-optimal sound?

Because they don't have a choice. They can of course choose to burn-in the device at the factory before selling it. Which is often done.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Of course. What do you think changes in 6 months?

The science of burn-in/break-in is nothing new. Thermal changes in a complex system of electonic components is aboslutely going to cause physio-chemical changes that influence the operating characteristics of the system. Now, one could argue that these changes over a relatively short-span of a couple of 100 hours of use are minute and not audible... but you cannot argue that there are no changes whatsoever.

Speak to any manufacturer of electronic components and ask them if there isn't such a thing as burn-in. Speak to the Military whether they burn-in their equipment to ensure that only systems which have reached their stable operating condition are used.

As for the argument about clocks/watches, computers etc... they all go through wear and tear and eventually operate differently than when new (however minutely... not to mention memory leaks in bloody Windows ).
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post #98 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 04:22 AM
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Frantz said...
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believe that some electrolytic capacitors need to a number of cycle to fully "form" the electrolyte.. That in itself could account for the difference some people including myself have heard in amps and other electronics...

Overly simplistic and completely overlooks things like propensity of amps and preamps to generated RFI from other components leading to IM distortion, output impedance, stability into given loads and a host of other factors. If a capacitor truly needs to be 'formed', it is done so by a gradual application of voltage which can 'form' the oxide layer on the metal (tantalum, aluminum). To do otherwise is to ensure both premature failure and the inability of the capacitor to meet its stated capacity.

Quote:


Speakers need some burn-in if only for the capacitors in (most) crossovers.

The manufacturing tolerance in the drivers far exceeds changes that occur in the capacitors even if they're 1% tolerance.
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I had an interesting experience with a Magnepan speaker, I think it was the 3.5 which would audibly "flap" in the presence of a loud bass transient (some here would jump at this and tell me there is no such thing) You would hear the panel hitting the magnet... So much that I began not playing certain cuts or albums, one of them I remember was the Dave Crusin Sheffield Direct-to-disc album... After a few weeks of playing same system, same amps. etc..

Why attribute that to capacitors? Why not attribute it to the material tightening up a bit as a result of both environmental and electrical exposure? Sort of like a small amount of residual plasticizer leaching out which makes the material conform tighter. Of course there are bass transients. That's not limited to a particular frequency range but more like rise time.

As some others have noted, they do not notice that their system has changed until they replace their tubes. Those who subscribe to themselves having heard break-in are unable to hear inner-groove distortion in vinyl. No one can balance their speakers to within a few tenths of a dB unless they use a meter. And once again, why is break-in invariably a process that leads to something better? Why don't they break-in for the worse?

Regarding Steve's earlier goading, he didn't hear break-in with Bryston primarily because Bryston did not 'prime' Steve's psyche with the idea. Theta did. Steve, and many of us, are susceptible to this in varying degrees and numerous studies have been carried out in psychological, sociological, and even marketing publications. Priming is the placing of a thought, an idea, into a person's mind without their implicit knowledge that affects their subsequent behavior for a period of time. For example, if you create a sense of urgency in an individual, they are less likely to help someone in need regardless of their profession. There are many other examples. Further, Steve ought to consider other factors, assuming he can, regarding his disposition during various times. Nothing much sounds good to me if I've had a lousy day. I need time to unwind. Maybe you do too. How's your performance in the sack Steve if a case isn't going your way, the weather is hot, and traffic was backed up? Further, critical listening itself can and does result in selective auditory focussing that results in different presentations making its way into long term hearing even though the actual presentation hasn't changed one iota. That's nothing more than the brain/ear reducing the information that impacts it.

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post #99 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 04:27 AM
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Speak to the Military whether they burn-in their equipment to ensure that only systems which have reached their stable operating condition are used.

Sure. Can I also speak to the Military about their use of psychics too? Can I speak to them about why they've got nurses doing Reikii on patients in our taxpayer funded hospitals? Can I speak to them about their high priced toilets and coffee makers too? Let's not attribute too much to our ability to discriminate differences that take place hours/days/weeks apart.

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post #100 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Chu. Nice to see you.

Now that you are here, are you gonna answer question #2:

2. Experience with your own audio and home theater components, etc. Did you hear sonic changes or see video changes with burn-in or not? If yes, over how long a period of time. With what components?

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post #101 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

2. Experience with your own audio and home theater components, etc. Did you hear sonic changes or see video changes with burn-in or not? If yes, over how long a period of time. With what components?

There are two possible answers:

1. Yes but one cannot distinguish between a real sonic change and one due to expectation mechanisms and neural adaptation without structured, blind ABX testing under controlled conditions.

2. No (but this, too, might be due to expectation mechanisms and neural adaptation without structured, blind ABX testing under controlled conditions). Parenthetical statement added in the interests of equability.

Thus, these anecdotal inquiries are pretty useless.

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #102 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 07:46 AM
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I've gotten used to bad sound or rather found that after listening to it for an extended period of time, it became more likeable. Try listening to single driver speakers as an example. Different companies spin that different ways like break-in. It's just listener adaptation to me. I think some devices take time to warm up, but that's a hell of a lot different from break-in. You'll generally find that as the price for something goes signficantly up the manufacturer calls for increasing amounts of break-in. Now, are they using crappier capacitors or inductors? Or maybe they're doing it because they need you to get acclimated to spending 10x or more for something than you had to?

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post #103 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by anupmc View Post

Very few people are actually going to broadcast that they don't like the way something sounds after they've spent money on it.

Then how do you know, since you can't find negative reports of burn-in? Or is that something you simply believe without any evidence to support?
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so if I'm trying to sell something on Audiogon, I'll advertise that it sounds crap??

You were the one implying folks were selling things on Audiogon because they don't like the sound after burn-in. If they don't mention it, then how do you know? Or, again, is it something you just believe with any supporting evidence?
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Because they don't have a choice. They can of course choose to burn-in the device at the factory before selling it. Which is often done.

Huh? They don't have a choice, but they often choose to do it? Which is it?
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As for the argument about clocks/watches, computers etc... they all go through wear and tear and eventually operate differently than when new (however minutely...

Wear and tear is different from the burn-in phenomenon reported by audiophiles, where sound quality improves with usage. Clocks/watches don't tell time better with more wear and tear. Burn-in, as being discussed in this thread, has no objective evidence to support it. Just completely anecdotal "I hear it" type stuff.

Is listener adaptation so unreasonable an explanation that you'd rather believe that electronic components change to suit the personal tastes of a listener?

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post #104 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mike lavigne View Post

Queue;

i appreciate the feedback with your personal listening experiences.

please give a few details regarding the cables you tried, the gear that seemed to not change with breakin and the system context......also how long ago you had these experiences.

if you prefer; just get into one issue initially.....or only what's reasonable.

regards,

Mike

For component break-in, I haven't noticed it on anything I currently own (in my profile), and stuff I've sold recently, before that I had never even been aware of it as a consideration, but certainly never heard anything to make me believe it was an actual issue with equipment I had used for over a decade (Carver equipment and JBL speakers). I believe if it were a real consideration I would have noticed a long time ago on my own, not after hearing about it from someone else and then suddenly noticing it.

As far as cables and burn-in. I had a full setup of Nordost Frey cables through my entire setup from initial source interconnects to speaker cables. Before those I had entry level Monster cables and Acoustic Research cables, and didn't notice any difference in sound when switching any of them for the others. In my last system change I went from the Nordost to BetterCables for every aspect of my system, and again no change in the sound quality. The Nordost had more than a year and a half to burn-in and I didn't hear any changes in the sound, and when I switched them out for those BetterCables, still no difference, as I already mentioned.

The cable experiences were all in the last two years, as before that I just used cables I bought with my Carver gear in the late 80s. I hadn't really considered it a potential issue with my system until recently and decided it was better to be safe than sorry. I only ended up being sorry that I wasted $5K on all the Frey cables. (I was wrong in my initial post, I actually spent $5K, not $3K - The speaker cables alone were $3K without tax, and the interconnects were around $2K with tax....)

I guess, at the least I can come away from the experience with the direct knowledge that none of those tweaks work for me. I even recently tried making my own cable elevators with ceramic bowls and tea cups, something people claim makes a difference to the sound. I heard no differences with that either, but I have some nice pictures to commemorate the event (the picture below only shows the speaker cables being elevated, but later I even tried it with the interconnects elevated as well).

I like to think I have an open mind, and I'm willing to try things if people say they will work, but I get a little pissed off if I spend a lot of money on something that is supposed to do something and it turns out to not do anything (such as the cable purchases). I would much rather have spent the $2500 I didn't get back when I sold those cables on something else, like new monoblock amps for the Sophia 2 surrounds or Watch Center speaker I recently purchased. What pissed me off more than that, was the dealer claiming they get less margin on cables than anything else for giving discounts. I found out later that that was an outright lie, they actually get more margin on cables than most anything else they sell. That is the last time I buy anything from that guy (or store).


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post #105 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I've gotten used to bad sound or rather found that after listening to it for an extended period of time, it became more likeable. Try listening to single driver speakers as an example. Different companies spin that different ways like break-in. It's just listener adaptation to me. I think some devices take time to warm up, but that's a hell of a lot different from break-in. You'll generally find that as the price for something goes signficantly up the manufacturer calls for increasing amounts of break-in. Now, are they using crappier capacitors or inductors? Or maybe they're doing it because they need you to get acclimated to spending 10x or more for something than you had to?

So Chu, you are admitting that sound quality isn't important to you at all, you can listen to an i-pod on crappy single driver speakers and psychologically speaking, you can will yourself to enjoy it as much as being at the live concert!!! You are quite amazing indeed!!!@@@

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post #106 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

So Chu, you are admitting that sound quality isn't important to you at all, you can listen to an i-pod on crappy single driver speakers and psychologically speaking, you can will yourself to enjoy it as much as being at the live concert!!! You are quite amazing indeed!!!@@@

The music is more important than anything else to me as well. I will enjoy music I truly love if it is on the radio played through a crappy car stereo system. I would prefer a steady signal to a satellite signal that is dropping out all the time due to object interference with the microwaves, as those breaks in auditory continuity detach me more from the immediate experience. Listening to music I truly love out by the pool on outdoor Niles speakers can be just as involving for me as listening to music in my dedicated room. It is all a state of mind.

Do I like to hear the added detail and "lifelike" dimensionality of a dedicated, well-setup system, and do I prefer it? YES! Does not having that kind of setup prevent me from becoming emotionally attached and moved by music I relate to? NO! Can a great system provide a more immersive and "real-sounding" reproduction of the original event? Indeed, but I won't let not having that gear stop me from enjoying the initial reason for owning that gear in the first place, to indulge my deep and lifelong love of music and everything it touches in my spirit.

That being said, it can be more satisfying to hear and feel the full range of music on a well built system. When I listen on my system, I hear and feel the event, especially with the low frequency bass reproduction ability of my speakers. Whether or not it moves me more at that particular moment is more a product of my state of mind, than the actual system and its added benefits.

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post #107 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 11:32 AM
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Chu

I do not think I attributed this to capacitors... If it appears to you that way, I am correcting myself here...
At this juncture and the more you post, it seems that your experience with high quality HT or Audio is remote, so there is not much you can bring in the way of personal observations, that would substantiate or refute claims of perceived phenomenon. I could be wrong and if so please do correct me.

On the subject of what is brought by a great system. Like many here I can enjoy music on anything that plays it, even through a telephone! The highest level of emotional involvement is when I am listening to the real thing followed by the experience of a great system... The best example I can give is that of a recipe... for say beef... The essence of the dish is beef... Take away some salt, this spice that spice... Yes, it is still beef but the recipe has changed and while it can be ok it is no longer great. Same with a music system, the good ones add or substract in a way that does not change the basic recipe too much.. The bad ones do at the end play music but they dramatically change the character of the recipe and these changes are deleterious, it is still beef but ...

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post #108 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

The best example I can give is that of a recipe... for say beef... The essence of the dish is beef... Take away some salt, this spice that spice... Yes, it is still beef but the recipe has changed and while it can be ok it is no longer great. Same with a music system, the good ones add or substract in a way that does not change the basic recipe too much.. The bad ones do at the end play music but they dramatically change the character of the recipe and these changes are deleterious, it is still beef but ...

That is similar to what I am trying to convey. It tastes more satisfying if a 5 star chef prepares your meal, but you don't have to go hungry if you can't afford to hire a 5 star chef to follow you around and cook every meal you eat. At the least, I don't starve myself of nourishment simply because I have a 5 star meal I can eat later when I am home.

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post #109 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 12:03 PM
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So Chu, you are admitting that sound quality isn't important to you at all, you can listen to an i-pod on crappy single driver speakers and psychologically speaking, you can will yourself to enjoy it as much as being at the live concert!!! You are quite amazing indeed!!!@@@

What is it about lawyers who extrapolate into areas that no one had any intent of going to?!

I'm simply saying that if a system has quirks, even gross deficiencies, if a person continues to listen to that, and in the absence of anything else (like concerts), it starts to become their reference. You get used to things Steve. Like you getting used to your wife or your wife to you. Or to the way a car handles where we maximize its positive aspects but minimize its shorcomings. I don't have single driver speakers but have heard them. I consider them royal crap. BTW, what happens to your new amps if the speaker outputs were somehow shorted?

Quote:


At this juncture and the more you post, it seems that your experience with high quality HT or Audio is remote...

Yes, Frantz, it did appear you were attributing things like amp and speaker break-in to capacitors. Rereading it, it still doesn't seem like you thought there were any other more likely explanations. I happen to be of the opinion that if this type of oscillatory behavior regarding break-in actually occurs, it is hardly synonymous with high quality or high end which ought to embrace the concept of robustness. Perhaps you are of a different persuasion? How's your personal experience with controlled listening tests?

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post #110 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 12:06 PM
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this discussion is much like what we see when people of a left leaning and right leaning political bent get together.

One side here is offering suggestions and possibilities as to what is happening, some say it might be real, but very subtle, some are saying it is not real and offering psychological reasons as to what might be going on.

Then some are saying it is absolutely real and if you miss it then you are obviously a flawed individual.

Mike has been honest. He has stated that he has no idea, and does not care. That is a valid viewpoint. However to keep saying the same thing and to assume that if the difference was not heard that there must be something flawed with the listener is not adding to the discussion.

On a note that was mentioned earlier, if some amp needs 200 hours of bun in, why is it not done at the factory?

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post #111 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 12:42 PM
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i am both a cable and burn in believer. having said that, i would like someone to comment on how my "listening" is flawed in how i came to my conclusions. first off, when i get a new component or cable, i plug it straight into my system and let it play constant for about an hour. i then return and do a critical listening test for another 1-2 hours. i then proceed to leave the component or cable playing on repeat (with the amp off) for about 2 weeks straight. now, i am very familiar with my system and my reference tracks have been played to death so i can hear them even in my sleep. as an example, when i first got a power cable from a well known manufacturer, i thought it was very rolled off and very muddy. 2 weeks later (not having listened to it for 2 weeks -- so NO, my brain did not "get accustomed to it") i re-listened to it and voila.... it was well balanced, detailed and not the least bit muddy. hmmm.


the exact same thing has happened with my cd player and preamp.


so someone, please explain to me how this occured (not scientifcally, in layman's terms) and how my perception "changed" over the course of "break-in".

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post #112 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 01:10 PM
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"so someone, please explain to me how this occured (not scientifcally, in layman's terms) and how my perception "changed" over the course of "break-in""

It could have been as simple as your mood changed. Or you imagined the change... you went in expecting 'break in' after all. Or your hearing changed. Or maybe it really did change.

Without some kind of control then like it or not you really have no proof of which of the above it is.

Mood has a larger impact on perception then most people realize. For example... I setup one blind test in my system where I consistantly passed the test the day I set it up. The next day (same setup) when I ran the test I couldn't pass it and flat out knew I wasn't going to be able to pass it while I was taking it. Later that night after I relaxed and destressed from work I was passing the test again. Do I think the components changed for a little while when I wasn't passing the test? Nope... I think I did.

Likewise our hearing changes throughout the day. Stick a pair of earplugs in your ears a half hour or hour before you go do some critical listening and see if ones perception of their system is different then say coming home to listen to the system after being in a noisy restaurant for a couple of hours.

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post #113 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 01:17 PM
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I knew a guy who bought two power cords and also ascribed to the break-in thing. He plugged one in, waited 2 weeks or so and then did an A/B comparison to the other power cord. He said the difference was profound. Later, I found out that the one he plugged into the wall, was never plugged into anything else. IOW, there was a wall outlet with a cable dangling from it. What happened there?

And Anthony...again, hearing is a lossy process and does not readily lend itself to long term comparisons. How's your ability at matching your speakers outputs without using an SPL meter?

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post #114 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony A. View Post

when i first got a power cable from a well known manufacturer, i thought it was very rolled off and very muddy.

Why would you buy something with that sort of sound? Did you think it would sound better eventually?

Sanjay

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post #115 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 02:04 PM
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Why Sanjay! Manufacturers use techniques which are of a highly proprietary nature and most certainly not published in any journal for the very real fear that their ideas would be quickly absconded by copy cats. They know full well it is well within their capabilities to design a product which asymptotically approaches a design that has taken years to perfect. The many listeners they use to beta test the intermediate designs are invariably taken from those who belong to the same organizations that they do such as the Masons who are well schooled in how to keep an oath of secrecy. It takes time for an addition such as a power cable to conform to a system. It's like a pair of shoes or gloves. After all, if the cable doesn't fit, we must acquit.

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post #116 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

this discussion is much like what we see when people of a left leaning and right leaning political bent get together.

On a note that was mentioned earlier, if some amp needs 200 hours of bun in, why is it not done at the factory?

lol


Extremely astute observation. Some manufacturers do.

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post #117 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 02:47 PM
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"Extremely astute observation. Some manufacturers do."

For quality control purposes. They want to catch the infant mortalities....

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post #118 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 03:43 PM
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Let's take one more approach here that is similar to burnin, but not quite. For those that believe, let me throw this out there: If you believe that burnin changes sound quality, then we need to assume that characteristics of the amplifier and the electronics therein change somehow. Whether you believe that the silicone substrate of transistors change, whether electron flow improves over time through components, it's really immaterial. Somehow the device changes.

What tolerance level should therefore be used in stereo equipment? Did you know that many capacitors are rated at +100%, -10%? THat means a 100uF capacitor can measure up to 200 uF or down to 90uF and still be considered to be within tolerance/spec.

Resistors are typically +/-10% or +/- 5%. I'm sure some audiophile amps use no less than 1% precision resistors, but certainly not all of them, and not in the whole amp/preamp/processor.

Now, if you're with me so far, let me take this one step further based on my service experience. A well designed XXX device (you fill in the blank with whatever component you want) will be designed to operate properly with much wider tolerances than I've stated above. I've seen some power supplies that come in to me with some fault unrelated to certain capacitors in these sets that have drifted far off value. For example, the power supply has a bad series of solder joints that cause it to stop working. I resolder them, it works fine. I then check the capcitors that are known to drift in value, and while the set is working fine, I find that the capacitors have dropped 70% in value. THe picture of the Barco projector however remains unchanged, because the set is DESIGNED to work with these parts that have drifted. I change the caps for good measure, and send the unit out the door, having done some preventative maintenance.

I remember going through a Soundstream power amp a number of years ago because one channel went into protect mode. I repaired that channel, then realized that the 'functional' side sounded much worse than the repaired side. As in the power supply example above, the capacitors in the working channel (as well as the defective channel) had drifted way off the original value due to the heat generated by said amp. Once I changed the caps in both channels, it sounded the way it should. The customer was not an audiophile per se, but did notice when his left channel died completely..

I'll bet though that his frequency response was way off spec for at least 3 years prior to the one channel dying completely.

I'd further state that I could swap out some parts in all of your audio systems with components that were 50% off the engineered value and you self professed golden ear types would never hear the difference.

Just a thought.

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post #119 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 04:15 PM
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i would not only tell him exactly that; since he works for Microsoft here in Redmond i would invite him over for a listen.......but none of that codec gap crap......it would be vinyl.

i looked at his picture on the link......i may have met him at one of our local audio club meetings (i'm not 100% sure).


Next time you go to your audio club, see if it is he. Have at it, ask away to your heart's content.
He is more than a codec person though. He is fluent in the proper protocols, etc. Maybe you will learn something and maybe you will buy that education for free.
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post #120 of 665 Old 07-16-2007, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
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Slight change here for you. Is that real ply on the wall, curved? You bent it and apply it? How thick, cherry? Very nice.
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