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post #1 of 665 Old 07-13-2007, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Please show you are serious about discussing burn-in of components, speakes and accessories/cabling by discussing it in this thread, instead of taking over other threads here at this forum. Thanks.

I ask that folks answer the following several questions on this subject:

1. Objective/scientific, even psychological/marketing information justifying your opinion on this subject.

2. Experience with your own audio and home theater components, etc. Did you hear sonic changes or see video changes with burn-in or not? If yes, over how long a period of time. With what components?

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post #2 of 665 Old 07-13-2007, 11:22 PM
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Naw. I think we should discuss Theta Enterprise amps here instead. The discussion will be a lot calmer.

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post #3 of 665 Old 07-13-2007, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
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1. Objective/scientific, even psychological/marketing information justifying your opinion on this subject.

Others can address this. I ain't no engineer. But I know what moves me and what I like. I pay the $$$ and I get to enjoy my system. That's what counts. But technicians from companies like Theta Digital tell us with some components that certain burn-in is necessary for the sonics to be at their best. Good enough for me that is if I happen to hear it myself.

2. Experience with your own audio and home theater components, etc. Did you hear sonic changes or see video changes with burn-in or not? If yes, over how long a period of time. With what components?

I've experienced this with various Theta gear that I've owned - Theta Generation VA DAC, Theta Voyager, Theta Compli, Theta Casablanca versions 1,2 and 3.
Theta advised a few hundred hours burn-in. I haven't kept perfect track, I enjoy my system, but definitely it seems with a few weeks of use I've heard the improvements.

Don't recall with my ex Bryston amps - as first installed them over ten years ago.

Aerial 10T and now Aerial 9 speakers improved sonically with a week or two burn-in. Same with Aerial subs. Aerial says its mechanical break-in which does it.

PS Audio Power Plants. Example - back in 2000, I recall installing my second one,
and sounded nice. Day later took it out, Joe Straceski modded it with Bybee devices. Put in back in, sounded not good. I was pissed that I modded it and ready to take it back to Joe to take out the stuff. But left system on and next day sound was ok and within a few days sound was better than before. Go figure.

Granite Audio power cords. The first ones in my system were fully factory burned-in and sonic and video improvements upon inserting in my system. But next I ordered a large batch of them, I was in a hurry, so Don Hoglund of Granite Audio agreed to do what he never does, give me the power cords before they were fully factory "burned-in". I figured let them burn-in my system. Put in the cords. System audio and video sucked. I was pissed. After a day of letting them burn in, I was still pissed. I pulled them all out and put my old "lesser" power cords in and all was fine. I brought the Granite Audio cords back for full factory burn-in - I think about two weeks. There was and is a 30 day return policy. I put the cords back in my system and - I wasn't pissed. Audio and video better than ever.

Let the "experts" Chu and Speco argue about this. I enjoy.

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post #4 of 665 Old 07-13-2007, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Naw. I think we should discus Theta Enterprise amps here instead. The discussion will be a lot calmer.

The question is will Chu and Speco, etc. even show up in this thread? If so, will they even answer the questions? Or are they simply "Component thread crashers", you know, like the movie "wedding crashers". I mean, if they really cared so much about the topic, why don't they ever start a legitimate thread discussing this, instead of crashing in on everyone else?

Go figure?

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post #5 of 665 Old 07-13-2007, 11:50 PM
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there is no way in this physical universe that anything other than a mechanical device (like a speaker) or perhaps a tube amp can change that dramatically.

I personally feel that what changes is your perception. If the device changed, we could measure it... sorry, but that is a fact.

Over time you get more used to how something sounds and you like it more, and more, and more. I will go back to one of the standard arguments that the objectivists like to use... if it was that noticeable... somebody somewhere would have measured it and shown it to be true.

Subtle changes... i can buy that they cannot be measured, these dramatic changes... sorry, don't buy it.

We can measure sound to the N'th degree, we cannot measure human perception.

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post #6 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

there is no way in this physical universe that anything other than a mechanical device (like a speaker) or perhaps a tube amp can change that dramatically.

I personally feel that what changes is your perception. If the device changed, we could measure it... sorry, but that is a fact.

Over time you get more used to how something sounds and you like it more, and more, and more. I will go back to one of the standard arguments that the objectivists like to use... if it was that noticeable... somebody somewhere would have measured it and shown it to be true.

Subtle changes... i can buy that they cannot be measured, these dramatic changes... sorry, don't buy it.

We can measure sound to the N'th degree, we cannot measure human perception.

Dizzman, thanks for answering the first question. How about answering the second question - what components have you used for which they sounded the same whether the first day or weeks later? Thanks.

And what about speakers? You say that a mechanical device like a speaker may sonically change? Have you noticed this with what speakers?

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post #7 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 12:05 AM
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Steve, i have not travelled to the moon, but i know that it is still governed by the same physical laws as we are.

I do not own high end gear. However i have used the stuff for years. Every model of sony CRT you like to mention, JVC, Barco, Christie, name it.

laws are laws. i know that i have liked things more over time. just a case of preferences evolving.

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post #8 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 12:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

laws are laws. i know that i have liked things more over time. just a case of preferences evolving.

Hey, I didn't know you were a lawyer???

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post #9 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

I personally feel that what changes is your perception. If the device changed, we could measure it... sorry, but that is a fact.

Over time you get more used to how something sounds and you like it more, and more, and more. I will go back to one of the standard arguments that the objectivists like to use... if it was that noticeable... somebody somewhere would have measured it and shown it to be true.

Subtle changes... i can buy that they cannot be measured, these dramatic changes... sorry, don't buy it.

We can measure sound to the N'th degree, we cannot measure human perception.

According to your argument, whatever speakers or amps one uses, if the room measured about the same, they should sound the same, right? Regardless of burn-in. Regardless of what speakers or amps? Regardless of other components?
Dizzman's law is Dizzman's law, right?

But u know what I like about Dizzman? He's honest. He answers the questions. He tells us his high falutin' video experience (he knows his video). He admits apparently lack of high end audio experience.

What kills me is how many folks know everything. I don't know everything. If you're dumb enough to buy something I like and report on that's your problem - I'm simply posting on my usage and subjective impressions. HA! But I don't pretend to be a know it all like some here. And at least I try to learn some objective stuff and I definitely am willing to listen to my ear/brain. Man didn't get technically speaking where he is today by books and theory alone - though you wouldn't know this from Chu, Speco, et al. I betcha they won't even answer the questions in this thread - they just want to be "thread crashers". They NEVER initiate threads about their components and subjective impressions - Bose won't let them. HA!

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post #10 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 01:14 AM
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From what i've viewed/heard over the last 8 years working a store that I believe to at least trick me or be true:
1. plasma tv's seem to have a bit of a better black level after a couple days of being on. Its not much but IMO it does happen
2. some subwoofers seem much louder after a couple days of use. Maybe its the system, maybe its not being as excited about a new woofer and realizing you turned it up to much in the first place
3. some speakers to my ears will sound overly bright and shrill at first and after a short while for many seem to calm down a bit, same as 2 on reasoning
4. i dont think i believe in burn-in on amplifiers, cabling, pre-amps, dvd's, cd players
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post #11 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 07:13 AM
 
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Steve...I too believe in "burn-in" but then again most of my components are tubes and of course the drivers in my speakers. Dizzman is my friend and I feel I am a Godfather to his twins. He has been to my house many times for a listen and we are members of the BAAS. His opinions for me are very valuable. He was one of the people who convinced me that an 18 wpc amp would drive my large 750 lb X-2's with ease. I value what he says.As for burn in, similar analogies, I suppose can be given about new cars with respect to brake wear and first oil change. Having said this I will even go out on a limb and offer up the suggestion of a tweak which I use monthly in my system as well as whenever I purchase a new piece of component or cable for that matter. IMO I believe it to effectively enhance burn in as well as dramatically shorten the time of burn in. This is the "Sytem Enhancer" produced by Jim Auld at Purist Audio Design. It is worth the small investment to use in a system such as yours.
http://www.puristaudiodesign.com/Catalog.html


"The System Enhancer is a compact disc that in just 74 minutes slashes the break-in time for a new audio system from days to a mere 6 hours. By sending a carefully controlled, mathematically designed signal through the system, the CD preconditions system components to work together smoothly and compatiblyremoving the brittleness that a new system often imposes on the music being reproduced.

With Revision B, Purist Audio Design has improved the original System Enhancer by slicing break-in time to 6 hours and adding features that may improve the equipment's sound quality. Used once a month, the System Enhancer continually reconditions a system to maintain peak performance. Each compact disc runs for 74 minutes and is made individually in real timenot pressed from a master copy like ordinary CDs. Using the System Enhancer couldn't be simpler: just drop the special disc into the CD player and push start."


OK Speco and Chu...have at me but I have used this disk for years and I believe it to work.
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post #12 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

there is no way in this physical universe that anything other than a mechanical device (like a speaker) or perhaps a tube amp can change that dramatically.

I personally feel that what changes is your perception. If the device changed, we could measure it... sorry, but that is a fact.

....


Considering that a cold amp is measurably and audibly different from a warm one, plus the fact that thermal cycling of electronic components absolutely has an effect over time, I'm absolutely convinced that burn-in effects are for real.

Of course, the debate could be about whether these thermal cycling effects are actually audible, or in your words "that dramatic...", but theres plenty of empirical evidence to suggest it does.

I'm not aware of any studies which has proven conclusively that there is no audible effect of burn-in with respect to audio equipment... do you know of any?
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post #13 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 08:30 AM
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Hi

I believe that some electrolytic capacitors need to a number of cycle to fully "form" the electrolyte.. That in itself could account for the difference some people including myself have heard in amps and other electronics... For cables, a really touchy subject around here.. I do not believe in burn-in or directionality.. not have I heard any difference between a new and an old cable...

Speakers need some burn-in if only for the capacitors in (most) crossovers. I had an interesting experience with a Magnepan speaker, I think it was the 3.5 which would audibly "flap" in the presence of a loud bass transient (some here would jump at this and tell me there is no such thing) You would hear the panel hitting the magnet... So much that I began not playing certain cuts or albums, one of them I remember was the Dave Crusin Sheffield Direct-to-disc album... After a few weeks of playing same system, same amps. etc.. The bass did become "tighter" and the speaker would not flap with the exact same cuts and albums...

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post #14 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 08:38 AM
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Dizz pretty much summed up my opinion in post 5 (did you expect anything different from either he or I?)

I'll add that speakers _could_ sound different much like a shoe's leather will slowly conform to your feet after you wear them for a while. Similarly, the mechanical properties of a speaker cone, surround and spider could change slightly over the first few 100 hours (and in the case of foam surrounds, the sound will change as it starts flaking away in about 15-20 years after they are new).

Electronic components will drift slightly from cold to warm, but if you're not running your equipment at constant clipping points and have an amp well ventilated, I can't see the sound of your system changing audibly. Besides, I keep all of my amps on 24/7, so they are at a constant operating temperature anyways.

Again to quote Dizz's post 5, your hearing perception does change over time, and I can give a perfect illustration of this: I own a lot of bootleg recordings, I record every concert I go to with A/T mics and a DAT recorder. Depending on the venue of the band along with my seating (did I managed to scalp row 3 tix off eBay?) will depend on how good/bad the recording is. They range from near FM broadcast quality to..well..a tin can..

If I listen to one of the 'tin can' quality fo recordings, they actually start to sound OK after about the 3rd song. The concert ends, you put the CD away, and when you pull it back out a year later to listen to again, it once again sounds horrible until about the 3rd of 4th song, by which time your ear adapts to the poor sound quality. I've observed this in commercial settings and home stereos as well, your ear ends up adapting to whatever setting you're in.

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post #15 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

I will even go out on a limb and offer up the suggestion of a tweak which I use monthly in my system as well as whenever I purchase a new piece of component or cable for that matter. IMO I believe it to effectively enhance burn in as well as dramatically shorten the time of burn in. This is the "Sytem Enhancer" produced by Jim Auld at Purist Audio Design. It is worth the small investment to use in a system such as yours.
http://www.puristaudiodesign.com/Catalog.html

I've used that disc for years, too. I also have an XLO test disc with a burn-in track, too.

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post #16 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

Again to quote Dizz's post 5, your hearing perception does change over time, and I can give a perfect illustration of this: I own a lot of bootleg recordings, I record every concert I go to with A/T mics and a DAT recorder. Depending on the venue of the band along with my seating (did I managed to scalp row 3 tix off eBay?) will depend on how good/bad the recording is. They range from near FM broadcast quality to..well..a tin can..

If I listen to one of the 'tin can' quality fo recordings, they actually start to sound OK after about the 3rd song. The concert ends, you put the CD away, and when you pull it back out a year later to listen to again, it once again sounds horrible until about the 3rd of 4th song, by which time your ear adapts to the poor sound quality. I've observed this in commercial settings and home stereos as well, your ear ends up adapting to whatever setting you're in.

But Curt, per your theory, the ears and brain adjust, and it all sounds the same.
Burn-in, break-in, different amps, different components, different speakers - they all sound the same when you keep on extrapolating your illogical theory logical.

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post #17 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

there is no way in this physical universe that anything other than a mechanical device (like a speaker) or perhaps a tube amp can change that dramatically.

that dramatically?

your comments seem to admit to changes (as a result of burn-in/break-in) but that they are not dramatic. how do you know that these 'minor' changes are not significant to some listeners in some systems? or is that a guess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

I personally feel that what changes is your perception. If the device changed, we could measure it... sorry, but that is a fact.

a fact?

are you sure that we are capable of measuring every sonic change in gear? and then actually relating that measurment to what is good and bad sonically?

if so; that would be a real break-thru in gear design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

Over time you get more used to how something sounds and you like it more, and more, and more. I will go back to one of the standard arguments that the objectivists like to use... if it was that noticeable... somebody somewhere would have measured it and shown it to be true.

honestly Dizz; i respect you and typically respect what you write........but to assume that everything measurable has already been measured is silly. does that really represent what you believe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

Subtle changes... i can buy that they cannot be measured, these dramatic changes... sorry, don't buy it.

if you admit to subtle changes, if there are any changes at all.......then who are you to say what may be in-significant to all?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

We can measure sound to the N'th degree, we cannot measure human perception.

N'th degree?

maybe......but maybe we are just scratching the surface of sound measurement.

i would relate my considerable burn-in experience but i have no faith that meaningful discussion of actual listening experience is possible here. as has been suggested to me by others on this forum; i will reserve my discussion of actual listening perceptions to other forums.
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Equipment can warm up but burn in is pure voodoo. What can actually burn in ? Can electrons burn in ?

Amplifiers, once warmed up (not burned in) and have reached a steady state temperature, usually perform at their best. It makes even less sense for one to claim that cables can burn in because there is nothing in a cable to burn in.

Electrons can't be burned in.

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post #19 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 02:32 PM
 
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mike lavigne,

Quote:


honestly Dizz; i respect you and typically respect what you write........but to assume that everything measurable has already been measured is silly. does that really represent what you believe?

In my opinion, I don't think Dizz claimed that everything measurable has been measured. But rather that everything that can be heard can be measured. That is not a silly claim to make. We have distortion and magnetic analysers that are thousands of times more sensitive than the human ear !

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post #20 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 02:36 PM
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I believe in burn in, but I also acknowledge that to some extent I burn as well i.e. psychoacoustic accommodation over time. Between the two, things do sound better after time and of course, things definitely have to warm up. Gremlins will still plague the synergy from time to time, but of course, those could be bats in my belfry and have nothing to do with electronics.
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post #21 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 02:46 PM
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And the XLO demagnetizing track for your cables and speaker cross over works wonders too. Strange, its no longer available but I guess somebody can come up with a financial incentive for why I posted this.

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post #22 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:08 PM
 
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If cables are burning in then get the hell out of the house and call the fire department !

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post #23 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

In my opinion, I don't think Dizz claimed that everything measurable has been measured. But rather that everything that can be heard can be measured. That is not a silly claim to make. We have distortion and magnetic analysers that are thousands of times more sensitive than the human ear !

what Dizz said......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

if it was that noticeable... somebody somewhere would have measured it and shown it to be true

.......is an 'assumption' that the fact that no one has measured burn-in proves it does not exist. to me that sort of logic 'by elimination' is 'silly'.

yes, test instruments can measure certain aspects of sound to a very high resolution. but we don't know whether those particular measured data points are the whole picture.....or even particularly significant. certainly no very high performance music reproduction products have been designed and built without considerable listening and fine tuning by ear.

why is that?

if what you say is true why would one need to listen? isn't everything measurable?

a question;

could a very knowledgable person who was deaf from birth design a great loudspeaker (for ideal music reproduction) based only on measurements?

would it be more or less likely that he or she could?

if not, why not?

getting back to break-in and burn-in; there is a measure of subjectivity to any issue of musical reproduction performance. if you start off with a belief it can't happen; you will not even believe your ears if it hits you over the head.

FYI; i did not start out with the 'belief' that break-in of electronic gear was a fact.....or that different cables sound different.....or that vinyl sounds better than digital. OTOH i did not start out 'not beliveing' either.

i just listened.
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post #24 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:17 PM
 
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Relax Mike

it is only goneten

You have take his comments for what they are worth---nothing
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post #25 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Lets list the physics degrees of everyone who participates in this thread:

_______________0 _____________

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #26 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:43 PM
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Quote:


Dizzman's law is Dizzman's law, right?

Wow... i have a law now.

I guess (at the risk of having things taken to an extreme degree) i will add to my statements.

What i am saying is that while warm up is real, and things like speakers can wear in a bit, and subtle synergies can show themselves. And caps can do their thing, and the whole system can settle in a bit.

But we get back to the same argument that takes the cable and tweaks threads off the rails. While we are not saying that we can measure perception (we cannot) we have test equipment that is many many magnitudes more accurate (carefully chosen word there) than the human ear (a VERY inaccurate device)

So what i am saying is that again... IF you are hearing a sonic difference that is so dramatic as to proclaim "it sounded broken before, i cannot believe how much it has opened up..." then there is an increase in either level, or sonic reproduction.

The SIA software SMAART system can listen to the audio coming off a source, then listen to the audio in the room and compare the two. this allows an operator to make adjustments so as to most accurately reproduce the source. you can also use it to establish a delta in performance. so that you can then figure out where the issues are and make changes if desired or needed. This system (and many others) can measure to a level of accuracy that the human auditory system is not capable of. IF the system in question had a dramatic change over time, guess what. the system could be measured.

It is important to add that while this system is FAR more accurate than we are, it cannot for a moment tell us if the sound is GOOD... that is what we need humans for.


When talking about the differences between subtle and major... it is pretty simple.

A. "I am really enjoying my new system. Over time, it seems to have just tightened up a bit. not sure what it is, i just seem to like it more every day."

B. "Wow, over the last 8 days of running the system 24/7 with a test disc, it is like i have an entirely different sound."

how come with burn in it is always better? Since the sound so RADICALLY changes... isn't it logical that some folks might think that it got worse over burn in?

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Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
http://commonsensehasdied.blogspot.com/
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post #27 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:44 PM
 
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That is some strong argument you have there, oneobgyn. How are your kids doing ?

Now can you prove that cables can burn in ?

--Regards,
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post #28 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:45 PM
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Since when do i not only have to have all this incredibly high end gear and a PhD to understand the basic laws of physics? I have been in the industry PROFESSIONALLY (that means i get paid for it) for 18 years. I have taught classes and graduated from of one of the most respected Audio classes in the industry.

Where are your qualifications other than going to Granite audio and watching them play with the test gear that you have no idea what they are testing?

Your horse seems to be getting higher all the time steve.

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Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
http://commonsensehasdied.blogspot.com/
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post #29 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 03:57 PM
 
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His horse is nowhere near as high as oneobgyn. He cannot add anything constructive to a technical discussion because he isn't technical. He believes in magic. Being insecure and miserable doesn't help either.

Now I would like for oneobgyn to explain to me in his own words how cables can burn in and how it's possible for electrons to burn in. I have low expectations of this happening, but there is a first time for everything I guess.

--Regards,
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post #30 of 665 Old 07-14-2007, 04:22 PM
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Ob does not claim massive improvements. he has stated numerous times that he is no longer entirely sure of some of that stuff. Just that his system works for him and he is happy with that.

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
http://commonsensehasdied.blogspot.com/
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