Do Some CD Players Sound Better than Others? - Page 18 - AVS Forum
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post #511 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee (QSC) View Post

DulcetTones, if you're interested in brain activity and music, I would recommend the book This Is Your Brain on Music, by Daniel Levitin.

Will make a note of it, thx.
Although if it takes away my enjoyment of music can I sue you for damages
Only kidding.
Still, I like the website I provided because they have done some very interesting experiments.
Have you had a chance to check it out Bob?

Michael, the point of the quoted experiments does not matter if the differences are heard or not, the point is that they have identified another aspect of interaction of music with the brain beyond the previously known studies for pitch/contour/rythm/meter.
This interaction is also pretty dramatic and surprising, touching on regions now that include emotions/attention/novelty/and error detection, and furthermore actual parts of the brain involved in speech and language processing (this is interesting because the music was pure piano).

My point is this.
The above test is a perfect example and way for ending once and for all those that argue for or against that a listener enjoys system expensive more than system cheap or there is no difference.

However if someone believes they do hear a difference and prefers one over the other, then it should be comparable to the results found in the experiment I quoted above.
It is an ideal test because the listener just sits and listens to all the products blindly without even having to select either A-B-etc and the measurements would not lie.

Personally I would love to see this kind of test involving WAV/FLAC/cheap player/moderately expensive player/no player but use music server-pc.

Lets not forget that in the design/development of some products it is a combination of measurements and ear listening (seen this mentioned by a few speaker manufacturers and other product types as well).
Now the above test does away with any arguments because it does not matter if something is being measured or not, or what those factors are.
It should appear on the above test and if differences occur then it raises the question what factors are causing it, otherwise it can be used as part of the argument by the those who are objective.

But lets not forget that it really is not possible at the moment to use auditory perception as a science for the objective side, as I have seen throughout this discussion.
As that article shows, it is far more complex than is usually presented with evidence highlighting how strongly we can react differently to the same music but with subtle differences.

Until someone does a comparable experiment to the one I quoted, I am keeping an open mind.

Its late stopping there but hopefully the point gets across.

Edit:
The point is Bob that I do not believe we actually measure everything that is relevant to our listening.
Otherwise you would not have speaker manufacturers testing crossovers by ear, and other product manufacturers using ear as well.
I am not saying everything is done by ear, just at times it seems to be a combination of ear and measurements.
So, if we cannot clarify 100% whether we measure every factor involved with listening, we have to look for an alternative (that being measuring brain response in the context provided by the experiment quoted).
Ok I am really really really off to bed now

Cheers
DT
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post #512 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

This foolish analogy again....

Just because some things naturally vary enough to make a sensory difference, doesn't mean EVERYTHING does.

There's no reason to believe that steaks 'should' be indistinguishable to anyone except people with stuffed noses, and very good reason to believe that properly built CDPs 'should' be indistinguishable.

As to 'better' or 'worse', you can BET that the 'sighted' factors will affect your emotional response to the taste of the steak. So , yeah, if you wanted to eliminate that effect during comparison , you'd do it blind, just as is done with WINES. So if one steak came from a top-flight steakhouse and the other from the local diner, you'd make sure that the tasters DIDN'T KNOW in advance which was which.

Take the pickle out Krabapple, this was clearly said tongue in cheek.

What's clear from this and other threads is that there are people that enjoy music and equipment and then there are
people (no names mentioned) who have anger issues and try to use the boards to bully others who don't share their views.

Many people here point to studies and articles suggesting that there is no difference in "insert equipment type here", but I wonder how many of the posters have actually taken the opportunity of comparing cd players or whatever under blind or nonblind conditions. Sure, it's hard to do a proper abx test but I suspect that many here haven't even tried the "high-end" cd players because "they can't possibly" sound any different from any other competently designed one. This isn't like trying out tourmaline balls at home you know! I put down the $$ for the "better" piece because I heard the difference in my own system. I'm not suggesting to you that it was night and day, but real nonetheless. If the $$ had been $$$$ then I might not have felt that it was worthwhile, but everyone has their own idea of what the diminishing return is worth. It boggles me that people have speaker cable that cost more than my speakers and I think they are nuts, but if I were a gajillionaire then perhaps I'd think differently.

I think the usefulness of this thread has faded long ago, it's too bad.

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post #513 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 07:29 PM
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Not necessarily. You need to read the 5th post Michael
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...75&postcount=5
Now as the saying goes, "if the shoe fits"

Oh you've got to be kidding. If you think Steve was acting in good faith then I've got a pair of $10K cables to sell you.
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Interesting in my mind is that Steve Bruzonsky who never backs down from any heated debate has abandoned this thread a long time ago.

Good for him. What's your excuse?

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post #514 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 07:40 PM
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DT, I must still disagree with your claims about the relevance of that study. Like you say, that study highlights the complex involvement of the various parts brain when presented with musical content; and it discusses the sometimes dramatic differences in brain activity when different musical stimuli are presented.

But in this case, we're referring to situations where (at least we claim) there are no audible differences. Identical content is presented, but the brain reacts differently due to extrasensory input: brand and price knowledge, for instance. The brain isn't reacting to differences at all, it's creating them. That is the fundamental difference here.

Now I know, you might say: but how do you know there are no audible differences? Well, there's one way we can insure that: by not only using the same content, but even the same equipment. As a previous poster said, Floyd Toole and Tom Nouisane have both done experiments where the listener was told different equipment was being used in each test, when in fact that wasn't the case. And listeners still claimed to hear differences in many cases.

The purpose of blind testing, then, is to minimize the likelihood that such extrasensory influence occurs. But it doesn't change the kind of complex brain activity discussed in that research! It's still there.

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post #515 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 07:40 PM
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post #516 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 07:44 PM
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I think the usefulness of this thread has faded long ago, it's too bad.

So why are you still here---and still writing no less?

Michael
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post #517 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

It is one human performance BTW not two.
They removed the rubato and articulation.

I find it quite incredulous that you are arguing with this and saying it is totally different.

First, you mean *incredible*, and second, if you actually knew what rubato and articulation were, you wouldn't find it incredible. They aren't necessarily subtle effects.

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So now you can tell the difference without an AB blind test for classical music that is identical apart from the rubato and articulation,

Yes, I guarantee you I could do that, and I bet you could too. And I bet the scientists weren't testing to see if the difference was audible, they were testing to see what the audible difference meant in terms of brain area activation.

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and furthermore you can 100% identify those nuances in the expressive piece?

As you've noted, a piece tends to become notably less 'expressive' if you strip away all 'rubato and articulation'.

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Again I find it interesting instantly there are people who disagree when this is a scientific test done by a reputable establishment.

And again, how about pointing to the particular paper you have in mind?
Please?

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Only conclusion I can reach is that if it does not fit your view it needs to be discredited.

Now do not get me wrong, I just feel to use these for that purpose are jumping the gun for the reasons I have explained earlier and the only way we will ever know which side is right will be when an establishment such as the Center for Complex Systems and Brain Sciences does a relevant test.

Cheers
DT

I get the impression that you think repeating the words 'Center for Complex Systems and Brain Sciences' lends weight to what you write, as if it were *especially* science-y. (Ooh, it even has the word *complex* in it!) I work in science and academia, and I'm perhaps overfamiliar with universities giving impressive names to their 'Centers'.

Your argument so far is still irrelevant to the subject of this thread...and to previous mentions of 'audio quality' perception being colored by non-audible factors.
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post #518 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

Ok Krabapple.
You provide for us all the neuroscience articles/experiments you use then.

WTF?

You pointed us to Dr. Large's page, which contains links to dozens of his publications (actually you pointed to his front page, and told us to then click on publications). You mentioned reading five papers. I'm just asking you to point me to the particular one you're citing, about 'rubato and articulation'.
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post #519 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Well, I am fairly new here but it seems clear that debate on EVERY cd player thread here is very different. Instead of sharing impressions and opinions on the players people jump out from behind curtains as it were to announce in a deep chest pounding manner that "all CD players are the same".



Nope, they don't do that, but it certainly seems that certain folks love to trot out that bogus cartoon of 'objectivists' when they feel cranky/threatened and have obviously no argument or desire to discuss the matter on its merits. It's very, very predictable of them, rather intellectually lazy, and possibly dishonest.

AGAIN (because it has been said at least once already on this thread), no one is saying 'all CD players sound the same' without exception or qualification.
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post #520 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

So why are you still here---and still writing no less?

Why am I still here? Not really sure. Why are you here at all on the "high end" forum when you clearly don't believe in "high end" gear? Just to argue it seems.

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post #521 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 08:50 PM
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I can't remember which page it was on (this thread has gotten long), but one of you guys referred to some guy named Pinkerton and how he did a dbt showing no difference between cdplayers. Does anyone know what equipment was used, what cd players were compared etc...? Just curious. Otherwise, he could just be some guy who compared a $100 Sony to a $150 Yamaha on his Bose speakers for all I know.

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post #522 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 08:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

Oh you've got to be kidding. If you think Steve was acting in good faith then I've got a pair of $10K cables to sell you.Good for him. What's your excuse?


and I say to you Michael

get off your high horse

you really are getting to be a bore

people ask you honest questions and they get condescending answers. I forgot that you really don't want to tell us how to spend our money.

I say to you "BS"

DT and others have put simple questions to you and all you do is put them down. I forgot that you are the one who dictates how the debate goes. You really are a sad weenie Michael. I'm going to listen to some music . You sometimes just can't see the trees for the forest.
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post #523 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

My point is this.
The above test is a perfect example and way for ending once and for all those that argue for or against that a listener enjoys system expensive more than system cheap or there is no difference.

And that's ridiculously illogical, at least if what you've described so far is correct. You're analogizing reponses to REAL, and 'grossly' measurable differences in audio 'output' (differences created by varying known dimensions of performance sound, predicted to be within the realm of AUDIBLE, even if the subjects can;'t verbalize the cause of the difference) , with responses to measurably *miniscule* differences in sound waves -- differences so small that they are NOT predicted to be audible in the first place.

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However if someone believes they do hear a difference and prefers one over the other, then it should be comparable to the results found in the experiment I quoted above.

No, because the stimuli are very, very different in the two 'experiments'.


Quote:


It is an ideal test because the listener just sits and listens to all the products blindly without even having to select either A-B-etc and the measurements would not lie.

Personally I would love to see this kind of test involving WAV/FLAC/cheap player/moderately expensive player/no player but use music server-pc.

Actually, the closest to what you want was done by a Japanese group (Oohashi et al) for 'high sample rate' material vs redbook, using custom built playback gear/loudspeakers. They found some fMRI differences too, but the results didn't really make much sense (the listeners failed an ABX test, and the brain effect took awhile to kick in, and lasted far longer than the stimulus itself) and another Japanese group was unable to replicate the positive effect. Look up 'hypersonic effect' if you're interested.
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post #524 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 08:59 PM
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people ask you honest questions and they get condescending answers.

OB, you are the last person qualified to lecture me on how to conduct civil debate. Have you even read your own posts? By all means, shove off. You have a nice system, go enjoy it.

Michael
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post #525 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Actually, the closest to what you want was done by a Japanese group (Oohashi et al) for 'high sample rate' material vs redbook, using custom built playback gear/loudspeakers. They found some fMRI differences too, but the results didn't really make much sense (the listeners failed an ABX test, and the brain effect took awhile to kick in, and lasted far longer than the stimulus itself) and another Japanese group was unable to replicate the positive effect.

In addition, the responses were not in areas related to auditory function but in areas heretofore not related to audition.

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #526 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 09:03 PM
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Why am I still here? Not really sure. Why are you here at all on the "high end" forum when you clearly don't believe in "high end" gear? Just to argue it seems.

Who says I don't believe in high end gear? It's very, very easy to spend lots of money without wasting it on snake oil. And if you'll recall I've never claimed perfect CD players are cheap. Krab has, but I'm genuinely not sure. I'm just claiming (guessing) they actually exist.

Michael
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post #527 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

OB, you are the last person qualified to lecture me on how to conduct civil debate. Have you even read your own posts? By all means, shove off. You have a nice system, go enjoy it.

I think he's confusing you with me.

OBGYN, Michael's the good cop, I'm the bad lieutenant.
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post #528 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I think it's clear you don't understand what you responded to. Regards, Steven.

Why don't you tell me what it means, then.
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post #529 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 09:07 PM
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Oh jeez, Krab, I just hope you don't look like Harvey Keitel.

Michael
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post #530 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 09:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

OB, you are the last person qualified to lecture me on how to conduct civil debate. Have you even read your own posts? By all means, shove off. You have a nice system, go enjoy it.

Typical you and consistant with the passive aggressive individual you are Michael.

My system has been out here for years and scrutinized to the Nth degree by people like you who live in a closet and offer nothing that they have in the way of a system. All we hear are DBT's ad nauseum. People here in this forum rightly or wrongly like to talk about issues that that we care about but you "Always" inflict your comments to the point that you drive good people away. Perhaps I should say to you, "shove off".
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post #531 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 09:31 PM
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Passive aggressive? Nonsense. I'm quite actively aggressive.

I thought you were going to listen to music. But I'm not surprised you had to come back and see my response! As someone said pages ago, it really is amazing that the people who complain the most bitterly about the content in this thread also seem to stick around anyway. In your case, you not only keep on reading but you stay in the game with a steady stream of personal attacks!

So again: I don't need to be lectured by you.

Michael
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post #532 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 09:34 PM
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We should all take a breath.
Frankly now . . .
Why am I here . .
Frankly, I can afford to spend bags of money on A/V equipment.
Yet, I do not have unlimited resources. If I drop 200 large on audio equipment, it's real money. If that 200 large has been wasted on snake oil, it's money I should have spent somewhere else, or money I should have saved for retirement.
Over the past 5 years, I have dropped more money on A/V equipment than I care to admit. I have had both $100 CD players as well as $2000+ CD players.
Frankly, the $2000 player is a total waste of money.
I have spent over $5000 on amps that have never worked well. They sound great when they run, but up time is a small fraction the time I have owned them.
These are the unspoken truths of "high end'.
I am currently planning the addition of a dedicated HT. The costs can be staggering. Frankly. I am tired of the crap. I want to know what matters, and spend my money wisely.
Way back when, when projection technology was young, the 20K forum reflected the bleeding edge of projection equipment. It now reflects the lunatic fringe of audio equipment. Frankly, I stick around, hoping to read about the relative advantages of 3 chip DLPs, the best projectors for 12' plus screens, effective ultra-low frequency audio solutions, etc. I don't give a gnats butt about speaker wire, inter-connects, transports, etc. Yet, 95% of the posts here are related to those topics.
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post #533 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 09:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

Passive aggressive? Nonsense. I'm quite actively aggressive.

I thought you were going to listen to music. But I'm not surprised you had to come back and see my response! As someone said pages ago, it really is amazing that the people who complain the most bitterly about the content in this thread also seem to stick around until the bitter end. In your case, you not only keep on reading but you stay in the game with consistent personal attacks!

So again: I don't need to be lectured by you.

Michael..young man...and you are a young man because I have kids your age...you need to have a look in the mirror but alas I think you would see yourself sticking around until the bitter end. In all the years I have been around AVS I have admitted my mistakes more than many times but you Michael, you remain the poster child for God knows what.I have never once seen you admit a mistake on your part. Thank goodness I am retired and can spend my time, monies and energies doing what I want.Listening to the Eagles right now typing on my laptop.
I remain amused that your day job allows you so much discretionary time that you hang out here on AVS trying to make monkeys of us here in the High End Forum.
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post #534 of 536 Old 07-17-2008, 10:35 PM
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Anyone heard this poor man's Esoteric X01 D2? Not looking for pro reviews, but your fine setup with this unit. Debate is fine, but I'd rather see postings talking about good high end sound on a spam budget even in a above $20,000+ forum.

$1,500 Cambridge Azur 840c using twin Analog Devices AD1955 24 bit DACs


$16,000 Esoteric X01 D2 also using AD1955 & BB1704
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post #535 of 536 Old 07-18-2008, 01:14 AM
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After all of this "debate" I think the answer to the OP is; Some people think so and others don't. Despite all of the posturing and rancor, both sides are short on provable facts, so you will have to make up your own mind about what to believe.
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post #536 of 536 Old 07-18-2008, 04:06 AM
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Thank you

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
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