Do Some CD Players Sound Better than Others? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 536 Old 06-26-2008, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Lee (QSC) View Post

CD players can sound different, but there's no reason they have to unless at least one of the players being compared is inaccurate.

Whether a CD player sounds better or not should first depend on what's being played on it. A crappy recording on a good player should still sound crappy in all its glory; the player's job is just to accurately and faithfully convert the digital audio datastream from the disc into audio signal voltages.

Or, if their output levels are different, right?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #92 of 536 Old 06-26-2008, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Or, if their output levels are different, right?

Yes, if their output levels have not already been normalized for the comparison, then judgments on perception are inherently faulty. I made my comment on the assumption that differences in output levels would be compensated for.

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QSC Audio Products, LLC
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post #93 of 536 Old 06-26-2008, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Funny thing is those support some reasons why I neither ski nor motorcycle.
...

He should have posted stats on cars and driving as well
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post #94 of 536 Old 06-27-2008, 04:25 PM
 
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We're debating about whether CD players sound different? Really?

What's next on the list for the QUOTE objectivists UNQUOTE, whether all animal meat tastes the same?

Whether all red wine tastes the same?

Whether all water tastes the same?

What the hell happened to OBJECTIVITY!?
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post #95 of 536 Old 06-27-2008, 04:47 PM
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Don't worry Chris, if you don't like the answers you're seeing, you can just ignore them.
Quote:


Actually, those of us who have both an engineering background and
experience of blind comparisons, would be *much* more likely to tell
you that well-designed CD players (of any price) should *not* sound
different, and generally do not.

--- Stewart Pinkerton, rec.audio.high-end, 1 Sep 2005 (or so)

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post #96 of 536 Old 06-27-2008, 05:12 PM
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I can't find that particular quote from Pinkerton.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #97 of 536 Old 06-27-2008, 05:54 PM
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http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/50...r-good#t357519

Note he's not saying they ALL sound alike. Indeed, when I found this quote I was looking for a different one wherein he described differences he has heard under blind testing. But those differences were far more subtle and far less common than is generally believed.

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post #98 of 536 Old 06-27-2008, 06:09 PM
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Here's an inflammatory tidbit, from April 2005
Quote:


Given that my current Pioneer DV-575A cost £109, plays any kind of
silver disc, and in a level-matched blind test sounds identical to a
'state of the art' £2200 Meridian 588 'dedicated' CD player, I'd say
that your 'value for money' recommendation is doubtful. :-)

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/40...ations#t271252

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post #99 of 536 Old 06-27-2008, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

We're debating about whether CD players sound different? Really?

What's next on the list for the QUOTE objectivists UNQUOTE, whether all animal meat tastes the same?

Whether all red wine tastes the same?

Whether all water tastes the same?

What the hell happened to OBJECTIVITY!?

LOL, objectively I'm laughing my a$$ off reading this thread. Anyone posting that they can't hear a difference between players needs to list their system in totality from here on out, please!!! The absolute funniest thread I read was someone asking for level matching transports during comparison testing
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post #100 of 536 Old 06-27-2008, 09:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

Don't worry Chris, if you don't like the answers you're seeing, you can just ignore them.--- Stewart Pinkerton, rec.audio.high-end, 1 Sep 2005 (or so)

Answers? All I see is a bunch of unqualified nonsense.

Generally speaking, I'm prone to ignore ********. I'm surprised you don't agree...?
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post #101 of 536 Old 06-27-2008, 09:36 PM
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I'm just giving you a hard time because you seem to have elevated yourself as the decider of what's objective and what's not. I find that amusing in itself. I've actually been involved in the Nordost thread too much to parse everything that's going on here.

As for my Stewart Pinkerton quotes, I guess you have to know your rec.audio.* history more than you do.[*] Along with the likes of Arny Krueger he is/was pretty famous/infamous for staking out the objectivist position on Usenet. But he was serious about the science and took the time to do quite a few DBTs, at least back in the previous century. Not saying he was perfect, just that he was serious. But of course that just means he earned the wrath of his adversaries all the more. Heck, one of his opponents even crafted a five-part treatise called WHY STEWART PINKERTON IS UNRELIABLE. So when people whine about how repetitive these ob/sub debates are on this forum, they don't know the half of it.

So I did not intend to commit a sort of transitive argument from authority fallacy, I kind of expected that many people here already knew who Stewart was, and what he has done along these lines in the past---and is likely still doing! He's still a denizen of the Usenet.

[*] Or maybe you've decided he's not objective!

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post #102 of 536 Old 06-27-2008, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

... The absolute funniest thread I read was someone asking for level matching transports during comparison testing

Yes, perhaps you should attend a few meetings at The Boston Audio Society since you are in Boston.
Perhaps you might pick up a few good points on how to conduct a meaningful comparison, yes?
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post #103 of 536 Old 06-28-2008, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Here is the MS Word sheet I made for her:


Motorcycles in NY accidents per year



4,912 Total Accidents
306,629 Total Motorcyclists
-----------------------------------------
~15 out of 1,000 riders are involved in an accident (150 out of 10,000)



190 Fatal Accidents
306,629 Total Motorcyclists
SIZE]

Interesting.
Do you know how many people
read these posts and how many have their heads spontaneously explode after reading the "all cd players are the same" posts?
190 Fatal Accidents
306,629 Total Posts

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #104 of 536 Old 06-28-2008, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Yes, perhaps you should attend a few meetings at The Boston Audio Society since you are in Boston.
Perhaps you might pick up a few good points on how to conduct a meaningful comparison

WHY??????????
Whats the point????????
What is with the insistence (just like a religious nut) to listen to all music blind.
I have this picture of a bunch of guys sitting around with long thin walking canes continually smashing each other while...........

I better stop, I feel a funny pressure in my head.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #105 of 536 Old 06-28-2008, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

WHY??????????
Whats the point????????
What is with the insistence (just like a religious nut) to listen to all music blind.
I have this picture of a bunch of guys sitting around with long thin walking canes continually smashing each other while...........

I better stop, I feel a funny pressure in my head.

eljr LOL, funny image. Being here is a little like viewing a train wreck, I don't want to but it's pretty difficult to look away... Thank you sir, may I have another.

I'm curious with level matching of transports. A transport's job is to read off the bits from an optical disc, then spit that digital data out to a DAC. Of course I'd level match DAC's output to do an A/B but transports? C'mon CharlesJ, are you really calling me out? .... are you saying there is a difference between output levels (volume) between transports in a digital bitstream?
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post #106 of 536 Old 06-28-2008, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

eljr LOL, funny image. Being here is a little like viewing a train wreck, I don't want to but it's pretty difficult to look away... Thank you sir, may I have another.

I'm curious with level matching of transports. A transport's job is to read off the bits from an optical disc, then spit that digital data out to a DAC. Of course I'd level match DAC's output to do an A/B but transports? C'mon CharlesJ.... are you saying there is a difference between output levels (volume) between transports?

OK, here is what I am saying.

I have two hundred dollars in my pocket I go down to Best Buy I pick up this Oppo stuff. I go home and listen to it and I am thrilled. All is right with the world.

Now, I am that same person 30 years later. I go down to the two channel showroom at the home theater store. I come home with a high end CD transport and D/A converter. My pocket is shy about $15,000 but I am thrilled. All is right with the world.

Next I come here and really smart people (like Jeopardy smart) jump on everyone who post anything about upgrading their system (unless it's related to speakers and even then the anthem is room treatments) and announce that they have to be blind to understand what they are hearing.
They throw out numbers, grafts volunteer lessons in psychology etc...

So I am thinking I got through 50 some odd years of life with my eyes open and the few times I closed them I generally bumped into things. You know my judgment was thrown of as a result. (knocked over a lamp as a kid!)

Well all this conflicting information, life's experiences and listening with my eyes open vs. blind smart people with lots of graphs starts to build pressure in my head. Knowing how dangerous that is I immediately jump to another forum.

That's what I'm saying.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #107 of 536 Old 06-28-2008, 08:07 AM
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Whoa, no wonder I hadn't been following this thread. It had been dead for almost a year until recently. I was following it, back then
Quote:
Of course I'd level match DAC's output to do an A/B but transports

I agree that if someone talks about level matching digital outputs, they would be in error. Doesn't disqualify the entire conversation though, just correct it and move on.

Michael
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post #108 of 536 Old 06-28-2008, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

WHY??????????
Whats the point????????
What is with the insistence (just like a religious nut) to listen to all music blind.
I have this picture of a bunch of guys sitting around with long thin walking canes continually smashing each other while...........

I better stop, I feel a funny pressure in my head.



I think the writers at MotorTrend and Car and Driver should do all their road test blind as well. We can eliminate brand image from impacting the test. Is it a Lexus LS460 or a Chevy Malibu your actually driving?

JohnG
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post #109 of 536 Old 06-28-2008, 06:17 PM
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Hardee har har... hey, I got another funny one for ya.

Why don't we have professional wine testers do blind tastings, too?

Oh, wait. They do.

You guys can make all the silly analogies you want, but what I see are people effectively suggesting that they need to see their equipment, or at least know what brand they're running in order to hear it properly! I'd have to get my hearing checked if I had that problem.

Michael
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post #110 of 536 Old 06-28-2008, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValhallaPC View Post

All tweaks make a difference except for the delusional skeptic who makes his own limited physics based on his limited understanding.

Vibration isolation makes a huge difference for the transport. I needed to use two steps of isolation to take care of all the vibrations.

ERS Paper also decreases the jitter which makes it sound hairy and full. It has the greatest effect on the inside of the casing because of the reflections inside. Around the power cord also makes a huge improvement because it reduces RFI.

I'm using Nordost Valhalla power cord to add a special flavor to the sound, it adds special jitter to the sound which gives the illusion of more openness. The longer the Valhalla the more openness but the less low-level detail.

I'm also using Valhalla AES/EBU digital cable, it added some coolness flavor to the sound.


I couldn't agree more with ValhallaPC, except perhaps the hairy part. If your system is resolving enough everything makes a difference; what you had for dinner, the viscosity of your pasta, the phone call you just hung up from, the alcohol content of your wine, what you wrap around your equipment.VERY perceptive and perhaps the best post I've seen you make yet. Get a girlfriend though Valhalla. There are a whole bunch of chicks interested in ERS and Valhalla Power cords at CES. You may want to walk around there in Jan '09 - you may find your perfect mate. ERS btw really made a difference in the Zanden DAC's that were upgraded with it. Easily audible and even the partly deaf objectivists here would be able to hear it in a double blind test.
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post #111 of 536 Old 06-29-2008, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

We're debating about whether CD players sound different? Really?

What's next on the list for the QUOTE objectivists UNQUOTE, whether all animal meat tastes the same?

Whether all red wine tastes the same?

Whether all water tastes the same?

What the hell happened to OBJECTIVITY!?

No one says that there are no difference, but in most cases it is VERY small and sometimes you cannot even hear them.
But the mainreason people hear big difference is both placebo and different levels. You have to match the levels to 0,1 dB to know that what you're hearing is not because of different levels.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #112 of 536 Old 06-29-2008, 11:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

I'm just giving you a hard time because you seem to have elevated yourself as the decider of what's objective and what's not. I find that amusing in itself. I've actually been involved in the Nordost thread too much to parse everything that's going on here.

You must be confusing me with Chu.

Quote:


As for my Stewart Pinkerton quotes, I guess you have to know your rec.audio.* history more than you do.[*] Along with the likes of Arny Krueger he is/was pretty famous/infamous for staking out the objectivist position on Usenet. But he was serious about the science and took the time to do quite a few DBTs, at least back in the previous century. Not saying he was perfect, just that he was serious. But of course that just means he earned the wrath of his adversaries all the more. Heck, one of his opponents even crafted a five-part treatise called WHY STEWART PINKERTON IS UNRELIABLE. So when people whine about how repetitive these ob/sub debates are on this forum, they don't know the half of it.

I've read that treatise before, pretty funny. I am somewhat familiar with Pinkerton, sure. I'm not a usenet reader though.

I'm a pretty unabashed objectivist. But I'm also careful to be that honestly and across the board. I don't pick and choose objectivity when it suits my beliefs.
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post #113 of 536 Old 06-29-2008, 11:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

No one says that there are no difference, but in most cases it is VERY small and sometimes you cannot even hear them.
But the mainreason people hear big difference is both placebo and different levels. You have to match the levels to 0,1 dB to know that what you're hearing is not because of different levels.

I can agree with that.

Aside from some very cheap and poor quality CD players, most CD players sound excellent.

It's not hard to get great CD playback. A couple hundred bucks or so and CD playback is solid. Differences beyond this level of performance (cost aside) are minor and subtle. But sure they are there. This is sticking with solid-state players.

People crying huge differences with CD players are exaggerating. They are like amplifiers, differences are extremely minor, and may often be not audible. Compared to the room, or the speakers, changes in CD players are dwarfed or even completely masked as to be inaudible. In many cases the differences may be so small that most or all of perceived difference is placebo.

That's my experience, and I think it's also a fair and honest and objectively defensible position. But DACs and analog stages do differ.

Just for my own disclosure and history, for instance I purchased an NAD cd player for my system to replace an old sony CD changer. I felt immediately it sounded better with analog and had more detail, but this was done sighted. However, I ended up using that same player as a transport (where I believe there are no audible differences) because I ended up slightly preferring the sound as decoded by my receiver which I felt is more detailed. The extra cost to purchase a nicer NAD cd player rather than other options was thus wasted. I've just moved to a Musical Fidelity CD player, which I now use analog out because it sounds superior to all of the above. I did this because my NAD is on the fritz. I did my own self-blinded test between the MF cd player as player and as transport (which should sound identical to the NAD as transport since it depends on the receiver's DACs entirely). As for methodology since I'm sure that will be assailed, my receiver remote has an analog/digital button to choose between A or D inputs, and the delay the same in switching from one to the other. I turn off the receiver's display and press the button a large number of times so that I don't know which one I'm listening to, and then A/B various material. On some material it's hard or impossible to tell any difference. On other material it's possible, but subtle. Every once in a while when I feel confident I hear difference that has been repeated and I decide which I prefer, I turn on the receiver display to see what it was I preferred. In this instance I preferred the analog output of the MF cd player. When I have done this in the past (many times) with my NAD cdplayer, I usually always preferred the receiver as the decoder rather than the NAD.

I haven't compared the NAD and MF analog a/b yet since I don't have a self-blinded way to do that, and I would need a helper. But I will get around to that at some point.

I'm sure the objectivists will decry my methods, and I'm sure the subjectivists will decry my assertion that all transports should sound the same.

But what's new. I guess that's the new purpose of the high-end forum.
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post #114 of 536 Old 06-29-2008, 11:28 AM
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Quote:


I'm a pretty unabashed objectivist.

But you see, that's just it, Chris. You can't make a claim as certain as that, while at the same time 1) blasting others for a supposed lack of objectivity and 2) providing evidence that you deviate from objectivity yourself (as we all do, sometimes).

By all means, Chris, I don't think you should refrain from criticism, even of fellow objectivists. You're an eloquent and effective debater. But it does seem that you conflate being wrong with being unobjective a bit too easily; and that you hold others to a standard of objectivity to which you don't hold yourself.

To bring it back to the CD debate, your own experience ought to tell you the tension between your objective beliefs and your subjective experience. And of course you know how much a blind test can suddenly snap your subjective experience closer in line with your objective beliefs. I really do not know of anyone who has done more blind testing with transports and DACs/all-in-ones than Stewart Pinkerton. His results should be eye-opening for any intellectually honest audiophile. Not only did many different players fade into audible equality when tested blind; but some of them that did prove to sound different were found to actually distort the sound (whether on purpose or by negligence I do not know). At the same time, he did acknowledge quality differences that were subtle but real in many cases.

Michael
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post #115 of 536 Old 06-29-2008, 04:18 PM
 
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I have a question that perhaps can be answered here.

First off, my equipment is not even close to most of yours but I would like to ask my question anyway.

I purchased speakers that for me are the cat's meow and in my current budget. I believe the speakers are well above the performance level of my amp and pre and I am not sure my CDP is mating well with my speakers (IMO).

Now I am really enjoying my set-up for HT and in particular my new center changed everything sonically for movies for the better.

I am running a Sony Blu-ray into NAD Masters and the sound is quite pleasing to me. It is crisp but not too forward (I hate these adjectives but this is the best I can do). My intent is to upgrade to Simaudio in the future. Both Amp and Prepro and most likely a dedicated Stereo Preamp with HT bypass.

Now my current CDP is a Rega Saturn. To me, on many recordings, it sounds a tad on the dark side. Nothing like the sound I get from Blu-ray. Not all recordings are bad but it just seems to me that I have talked myself into the fact that this CDP, while quite good to very good, is not a good match with my Dynaudio Confidence speakers.

In fact I was thinking that my first change might be the CDP and perhaps give another player a try before upgrading my Amp and other gear (I have to upgrade each piece a step at a time and a new CDP could be purchased right away but amps etc will need to wait).

When reading threads like this it would appear that I would not obtain a sonic change by changing the CDP out for a different one.

Why does my Rega Saturn sound a tad on the darker side then to me? I find it hard to believe that I am not able to find a player with a different sound although it may not be better just different?

I love my Dynaudios but I am not thrilled many times with CD playback but I am always thrilled with HT...

I understand that recording quality comes into play and the genre of the music comes into play but I would still like to acheive a slightly different sonic signature with CDP playback.

Thanks-
Rick
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post #116 of 536 Old 06-29-2008, 05:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CETA1 View Post

I have a question that perhaps can be answered here.

First off, my equipment is not even close to most of yours but I would like to ask my question anyway.

I purchased speakers that for me are the cat's meow and in my current budget. I believe the speakers are well above the performance level of my amp and pre and I am not sure my CDP is mating well with my speakers (IMO).

Now I am really enjoying my set-up for HT and in particular my new center changed everything sonically for movies for the better.

I am running a Sony Blu-ray into NAD Masters and the sound is quite pleasing to me. It is crisp but not too forward (I hate these adjectives but this is the best I can do). My intent is to upgrade to Simaudio in the future. Both Amp and Prepro and most likely a dedicated Stereo Preamp with HT bypass.

Now my current CDP is a Rega Saturn. To me, on many recordings, it sounds a tad on the dark side. Nothing like the sound I get from Blu-ray. Not all recordings are bad but it just seems to me that I have talked myself into the fact that this CDP, while quite good to very good, is not a good match with my Dynaudio Confidence speakers.

In fact I was thinking that my first change might be the CDP and perhaps give another player a try before upgrading my Amp and other gear (I have to upgrade each piece a step at a time and a new CDP could be purchased right away but amps etc will need to wait).

When reading threads like this it would appear that I would not obtain a sonic change by changing the CDP out for a different one.

Why does my Rega Saturn sound a tad on the darker side then to me? I find it hard to believe that I am not able to find a player with a different sound although it may not be better just different?

I love my Dynaudios but I am not thrilled many times with CD playback but I am always thrilled with HT...

I understand that recording quality comes into play and the genre of the music comes into play but I would still like to acheive a slightly different sonic signature with CDP playback.

Thanks-
Rick


Rick

I see you are from the Bay Area. Me too. We have a great audio club up here that many AVS'rs are members of...BAAS..Bay Area Audio Society. No meets are pending but if you are interested I would gladly host you one on one and answer your question personally
The great thing about BAAS is there are both subjectivists as well as objectivists where we all espouse our beliefs but at the end of the day we are all friends and have a hreat time with one another
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post #117 of 536 Old 06-30-2008, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

You must be confusing me with Chu.



I've read that treatise before, pretty funny. I am somewhat familiar with Pinkerton, sure. I'm not a usenet reader though.

I'm a pretty unabashed objectivist. But I'm also careful to be that honestly and across the board. I don't pick and choose objectivity when it suits my beliefs.

Yes, asians and people from the upper NW states tend to look the same.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #118 of 536 Old 06-30-2008, 11:19 AM
 
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But you see, that's just it, Chris. You can't make a claim as certain as that, while at the same time 1) blasting others for a supposed lack of objectivity and 2) providing evidence that you deviate from objectivity yourself (as we all do, sometimes).

By all means, Chris, I don't think you should refrain from criticism, even of fellow objectivists. You're an eloquent and effective debater. But it does seem that you conflate being wrong with being unobjective a bit too easily; and that you hold others to a standard of objectivity to which you don't hold yourself.

My objection (punny ) is that there are a number of people who continually berate other users for being 'subjectivists,' and having silly or irrational or completely non-scientific and non-rigorous explanations or complete non-explanations for things they purport to hear, yet these 'objectivists' who enter thread after thread and turn it into a pointless and stupid pissing match are fundamentally anti-science. THATS what bothers me. They fundamentally do not believe in the scientific method, they do not believe in data, knowledge, study, or even fact. In other domains, they hold beliefs that are equally as preposterous as the subjectivists they insult and berate which does nothing but drag the quality of this forum into a useless text-screaming chamber.

It's not just that people are occassionally not completely objective. It's that they disdain and fundamentally hate science. Yet they enter this forum and make-believe that they are carriers of the torch of science and objectivity simply because that is a strong argumentative position. That's the only reason they care about science at all is because it allows them to argue more vociferously, and more strongly berate other people who think whatever it is that they think.

But on other topics? Several of these same persons believe strongly that science is not only ignorant, misleading, wrong, imperfect; it is dangerous or politically motivated or corrupted. They believe that science is a giant conspiracy to mislead and deceive.

That's what bothers me. Many of the objectivist arguments here are not wrong at all, they're just grossly dishonest and opportunist. Science is being used, even if that science is correct, by people who fundamentally despise scientific objectivity.
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post #119 of 536 Old 06-30-2008, 11:28 AM
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Nice speech. The problem is, what I responded to was:
Quote:


We're debating about whether CD players sound different? Really?
...
What the hell happened to OBJECTIVITY!?

What was apparent at the time was that what set you off was the subject matter.

I'll be perfectly honest with you. I don't give a rats ass if someone is irrational or unobjective in other forums or circles where I'm not involved. There are plenty of effective and accomplished scientists who are irrational about other aspects of their life or their beliefs. So the hell what? If I stopped working and interacting with people who weren't consistently objective I'd not work at all. If someone carrying a coherent argument on the topic at hand, I'm content letting that argument can stand and fall on its own merits. If your personal disgust for Chu Gai and others makes that hard for you to do, I sympathize, but don't piss on the rest of us over it. Is Bob Lee on your black list too? Am I? CharlesJ? rsbeck?

Now, if you want to take this thread off the rails and continue complaining about certain persons here that aren't objective enough to suit your tastes, or lose their objectivity on topics that are close to your heart, so be it. But as much as a pissing match as this may be, it was on an interesting topic. You're not coming off as righteous as you'd like to be.

Michael
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post #120 of 536 Old 06-30-2008, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

We're debating about whether CD players sound different? Really?

What's next on the list for the QUOTE objectivists UNQUOTE, whether all animal meat tastes the same?

Whether all red wine tastes the same?

Whether all water tastes the same?

What the hell happened to OBJECTIVITY!?

Please understand, the discussion is whether different CD players--not different CDs--sound different.

Bob Lee
Applications Engineer
QSC Audio Products, LLC
Costa Mesa, Calif.

Secretary, Audio Engineering Society
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