James Randi’s attack on high performance audio - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Would've been informative to see how they were connected at the speaker. Did you notice? Could it have been some bi-wiring legerdemain? Any idea why they had to go in-wall after all one ought to be able to piggy-back the wires on the back of the amp.


Sorry. I guess I didn't make it very clear about what was actually there. I wish I would have gotten a picture. The in-wall wire wasn't 'in a wall'. It was just strung from the back of the amp, to the speaker.

Okay, after going through my photos, it looks like I did a picture. It doesn't show the speakers themselves, but it clearly shows the in-wall and the Magnums laying next to each other going fron the amp to the speakers. They simply hooked and unhooked each cable to show the difference. They demoed their AVt modules as well.


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post #722 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by James R. Geib View Post

Quite an interesting topic!

Does anyone else find that when their car is cleaned properly that their sound system actually sounds better? I think this is a great example as to why individuals perceive differences among various cables, when there is no filter in-line with the cable.

I can understand that a difference could potentially be heard if there was an impedance mismatch, but I'm on the side of the fence that says: No-one can hear a difference between $2 a foot speaker cable and $500 a foot if the cables are constructed properly.

Until it's proven in a valid test, I'll always believe the above, and that's coming from someone who has spent about $1000 on cables in the past. I've recently sold my speaker jumpers, but I'm holding on to my actual speaker cables for sentimental reasons, not acoustical! They simply look better/more impressive than anything I can find at a big box store!

Differences among actual components is another story....

I find it amazing, and frankly, quite provocative, that well educated individuals ( who've presumably had at least some formal exposure to the principles of Psychology,) regularly ignore the most relevant component in any audio chain; that is, the one between their ears.
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post #723 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 06:08 PM
 
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If you've got something more detailed, I hope you'll share it.

Ok.





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Who in their right mind would tear apart a $9800 pair of speaker cables?

Yes it is a real Transparent cable, here is the serial number etched into the upper left hand corner on the bottom of the primary network box. Serial #1192

Opening the first end I discovered that it was completely empty! Total jewelry factor here.

Upon opening the other end I discovered they did have some parts in there, you can see the leads were soldered to the openings in the positive and negative tails. The two points you see were covered by a thin layer of poured plastic, it looked a lot like the stuff you can buy at the auto parts store to cover the ends of your tools in plastic.

I clipped the leads and cut off the blue plastic cup revealing the two leads sticking out of a mass of epoxy.

Once I knifed away the epoxy I found two components, a capacitor measuring 1000 Pico farads and a resistor measuring 31.7 Ohms, to their credit they did use a high quality 1% resistor (meaning that the resistance will vary by only 1% from the stated resistance).

Now for the good part, the big network box! After removing the label and four screws I separated the box and found a cardboard box filled with a different green epoxy with putty used to cover any gaps in the cardboard when the epoxy was poured.

After chipping away at the green epoxy for about 1\\2 an hour I found an inductor. There was also a black tar at different places in the cube of epoxy, I have no idea what this was used for as it has no uniform shape, so maybe it is cheaper "filler" than filling the entire box with the epoxy. You can see that the inductor is placed within the positive leg that has been cut in half. In other words the inductor is placed in series with the positive leg of the cable. This means it will add itself to the speaker's crossover and move the crossover point of the speaker. Not good engineering in my opinion!

Here is the inductor with the casing fully removed.

This was recovered over the internet but all of the pictures were not available since this is so old.
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post #724 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 06:27 PM
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to their credit they did use a high quality 1% resistor

Priceless.
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post #725 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 06:29 PM
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I've seen this. A pity this was taken apart by a brute so that one can't reconstruct the circuit. But yes, nothing suggests a large price tag.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #726 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 06:36 PM
 
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I've seen this. A pity this was taken apart by a brute so that one can't reconstruct the circuit.

But that is the thing, there is no "circuit" and the only difference between this and MIT is that MIT has a bit nicer network box.
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post #727 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rto View Post

I find it amazing, and frankly, quite provocative, that well educated individuals ( who've presumably had at least some formal exposure to the principles of Psychology,) regularly ignore the most relevant component in any audio chain; that is, the one between their ears.

But....but....I heard a difference when I wasn't expecting to (and or the opposite of what I expected) . I can't tell you how many times I've heard subjectivists make that argument as proof that the placebo effect couldn't possibly be at work.

Joking aside, I think this humorous article may be part of it:
http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html

In a nutshell, the way some of us see the world is so drastically different it's almost as if we are observing two different worlds. The only conclusion I can come to with regard to many subjectivists is that they truly are unable to observe the placebo effect and/or certain psychological tendencies within themselves. In fact, if you think about it it's rather funny. They often accuse us of being close minded and thinking science "knows it all". But in fact it's the objectivists who are quite open minded...we are open minded because we know our own senses and perceptions are often not accurate.
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post #728 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 07:21 PM
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This is the first and last time I'll ever make a comment on this subject (as I'm about to get into the cable business), re the photos:

.. .. .. ..

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
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post #729 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 08:51 PM
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We are having a similar discussion on the DIY audio forum..about cables..as usual!!! Never whoulda guessed!

Here is a post of mine from that thread. I find it fits here quite well. I was having a minor discussion with Jneutron. He is a Physicist, the kind of guy who tells exploratory physicists in supercollider research whether their given experimental desires are even remotely possible or not-then has to create the gear to do so. He's an amicable guy. We have relatively humane discussions. Me on the intuitive subjectivist/philosophical side of the table, and he sorta on the other. We both prefer not to label people, and I'm not here to put words into his mouth.So we'll leave it at that. Be it known, though, the moderators there have bigger hammers and use them more often. The DIY audio crowd is just plain nuts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm not really interested in the measurements, or the math, John.

As a matter of fact I went out of my way to totally do away with any math, in any way possible, in anything that I do. (I'm talking hard math, calculus, record keeping, lab books, etc, etc) It's sort of a pointed argument of 'walking the walk' but still coming across with the goods, at the cutting edge..as a way of showing clearly to the 'objectivist' (I dislike labeling anyone, - it is a word I am forced to use) crowd that one can still do cutting edge work..without any of the numbers, whatsoever.

Ie analytical work is obviously necessary but that rigorous structured systems will not always take one as far as the given person may go. Some people can and do operate well outside of such caste systems and --do extremely well, thank you very much. The idea of doubting someone as they do not fit into the 'defined methodology' is quite insulting, to say the least. (Not saying that you indulge in such) Ie, open your mind. That old saw. One that many a 'scientist' is in serious need of having a boot up the ass on. I'm about to deliver one.

An example being Crick, nearly on his deathbed, admitting to a horrified near-religious-about-structure 'system' of 'investigation', in his given field..that he intuited the basics of the DNA spiral while wasted on LSD. Horror of horrors!

Both Sy and Anatech (Sy and Anatech are moderators on that forum) are aware of this particular item's existence. Both are silent for the moment as I have asked them to be. Neither of them have heard said cable, but both are highly intrigued, as the science rather explicitly shows it's face as the item itself is acknowledged in it's existence. Pardon me, I'm sure you know the Latin phrase for this point, I forget it for the moment.

What I'm saying is I did this one, for the vastly larger part without any math, without any records, without writing a single thing down, without any rigorous testing systems and without any education. All this was done clearly as a point of destination, and the methodology was specifically chosen by me, when I was 18. I am 43. This is one result. It was and is a running experiment in non-linear thinking, which has spanned....25 years. So, you won't get any math, no research papers, no white papers. Merely the object itself. Which, in the end, is more than enough.

You may find this cable to actually be useful as a tool in helping you wrangle some considerations you have in your own line of work. It is a very interesting thing, this cable.

I would hazard a guess that it might actually be far more difficult to do things the way I'm doing them, but for me.. it is a natural....and it's a blast.

We both know that the objectivist crowd, by it's very nature, will likely do everything in it's usual non-self reflective capacity to ignore such a 'trick', but it's worth a shot. I'm not wasting my energy, it's the way I operate. I've done this on the AVS forum about 8 times now. The pattern is that the objectivists are slapped down into silence for about a month (when I provide a dang amazing result). Then their senseless buzz begins again.

Sometimes I think it is connected to specific aspects of social structure within the context of mental wiring surrounding emoting and empathy, but that is generally a sentence that many an objectivist would see as an alien language...which says it all. One of my favorite lines, 'hoisted by their own petards'.

But then again, most blatantly verbal objectivists are not at the top of their given trade, and are really the mass of engineers marching through the rather stonily silent intuiters among them, who are the ones who get the real work done. Ie, balance.

Balance requires at least an even amount of intuition along with the extreme objectivism, otherwise nothing works. The universe is about balance. And those who practice life within extreme objectivisim -like a religion- are almost, to a man, incapable of seeing that, due to the radical position of extreme objectivism.


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Ken Hotte

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post #730 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by KBK View Post

We are having a similar discussion on the DIY audio forum..about cables..as usual!!! Never whoulda guessed!

Here is a post of mine from that thread. I find it fits here quite well. I was having a minor discussion with Jneutron. He is a Physicist, the kind of guy who tells exploratory physicists in supercollider research whether their given experimental desires are even remotely possible or not-then has to create the gear to do so. He's an amicable guy. We have relatively humane discussions. Me on the intuitive subjectivist/philosophical side of the table, and he sorta on the other. We both prefer not to label people, and I'm not here to put words into his mouth.So we'll leave it at that. Be it known, though, the moderators there have bigger hammers and use them more often. The DIY audio crowd is just plain nuts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm not really interested in the measurements, or the math, John.

As a matter of fact I went out of my way to totally do away with any math, in any way possible, in anything that I do. (I'm talking hard math, calculus, record keeping, lab books, etc, etc) It's sort of a pointed argument of 'walking the walk' but still coming across with the goods, at the cutting edge..as a way of showing clearly to the 'objectivist' (I dislike labeling anyone, - it is a word I am forced to use) crowd that one can still do cutting edge work..without any of the numbers, whatsoever.

Ie analytical work is obviously necessary but that rigorous structured systems will not always take one as far as the given person may go. Some people can and do operate well outside of such caste systems and --do extremely well, thank you very much. The idea of doubting someone as they do not fit into the 'defined methodology' is quite insulting, to say the least. (Not saying that you indulge in such) Ie, open your mind. That old saw. One that many a 'scientist' is in serious need of having a boot up the ass on. I'm about to deliver one.

An example being Crick, nearly on his deathbed, admitting to a horrified near-religious-about-structure 'system' of 'investigation', in his given field..that he intuited the basics of the DNA spiral while wasted on LSD. Horror of horrors!

Both Sy and Anatech (Sy and Anatech are moderators on that forum) are aware of this particular item's existence. Both are silent for the moment as I have asked them to be. Neither of them have heard said cable, but both are highly intrigued, as the science rather explicitly shows it's face as the item itself is acknowledged in it's existence. Pardon me, I'm sure you know the Latin phrase for this point, I forget it for the moment.

What I'm saying is I did this one, for the vastly larger part without any math, without any records, without writing a single thing down, without any rigorous testing systems and without any education. All this was done clearly as a point of destination, and the methodology was specifically chosen by me, when I was 18. I am 43. This is one result. It was and is a running experiment in non-linear thinking, which has spanned....25 years. So, you won't get any math, no research papers, no white papers. Merely the object itself. Which, in the end, is more than enough.

You may find this cable to actually be useful as a tool in helping you wrangle some considerations you have in your own line of work. It is a very interesting thing, this cable.

I would hazard a guess that it might actually be far more difficult to do things the way I'm doing them, but for me.. it is a natural....and it's a blast.

We both know that the objectivist crowd, by it's very nature, will likely do everything in it's usual non-self reflective capacity to ignore such a 'trick', but it's worth a shot. I'm not wasting my energy, it's the way I operate. I've done this on the AVS forum about 8 times now. The pattern is that the objectivists are slapped down into silence for about a month (when I provide a dang amazing result). Then their senseless buzz begins again.

Sometimes I think it is connected to specific aspects of social structure within the context of mental wiring surrounding emoting and empathy, but that is generally a sentence that many an objectivist would see as an alien language...which says it all. One of my favorite lines, 'hoisted by their own petards'.

But then again, most blatantly verbal objectivists are not at the top of their given trade, and are really the mass of engineers marching through the rather stonily silent intuiters among them, who are the ones who get the real work done. Ie, balance.

Balance requires at least an even amount of intuition along with the extreme objectivism, otherwise nothing works. The universe is about balance. And those who practice life within extreme objectivisim -like a religion- are almost, to a man, incapable of seeing that, due to the radical position of extreme objectivism.


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"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.

One word: "medication"
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post #731 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 09:22 PM
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One word: Idiot.

You, my friend..are one of the one's who goes silent for about a month. Then you need to be slapped down again. You are one of the reasons I left this forum. Like I said. Incapable of basic balanced reason.

Ken Hotte

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post #732 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 09:36 PM
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Balance requires at least an even amount of intuition along with the extreme objectivism, otherwise nothing works. The universe is about balance. And those who practice life within extreme objectivisim -like a religion- are almost, to a man, incapable of seeing that, due to the radical position of extreme objectivism.

Faith is the maintenance of belief in the absence of evidence. Religious allusions only serve to remind us that in this context, the audio subjectivist wears no clothes.
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post #733 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rto View Post

Faith is the maintenance of belief in the absence of evidence. Religious allusions only serve to remind us that in this context, the audio subjectivist wears no clothes.

But the scientific method requires no faith? Hardly. Every methodology used to describe the purported way of the world is faith based. Heck, even resort to logic requires faith.
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post #734 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 11:00 PM
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The Buddhists don't call it 'The middle way' for nothing. It's about balance.

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
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post #735 of 1770 Old 10-16-2007, 11:22 PM
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OK, so you invented something with no "science" involved. we are fine with that. And not testing or evidence... also fine with it. No white paper, no peer review, but it is revolutionary and we just have to take your word for it...

OK ken, then if this thing is so magical, there will be no problems showing its superiority... right? there are many of us here who are willing to put up with all sorts of outlandish claims... as long as you can prove it. A single DBT with some moderate controls is all that is needed.

But wait, testing shows that we do not believe, so we would fail... only those who free their minds to the call of interplanetary craft are able to see the truth... Am i close?

And what are these amazing discoveries of yours that cause folks to run with their tails between their legs? i do not recall Q ever shutting up? or Dr. Grant, or me for that matter.

The only thing consistent between your "disappearances" is a sudden spike in nonsensical ravings about shifting light rays or men in black vans...

The science world has another good saying "put up or shut up" if you have something, and it is earth shattering, we look forward to seeing and hearing about it.

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
http://commonsensehasdied.blogspot.com/
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post #736 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 05:20 AM
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Let me comment on Blu Ray's photo and text:

The inductor, resistor and capacitor is almost guaranteed to be an anti oscillation network due to the high capacitance of the cable. It's a well known fact that some amps will oscillate when connected to a (relatively) high capacitive load, usually esoteric amps where the manufacturer lacks the R&D to put their amp under multiple loads to simulate real life conditions. The amps oscillate at ultrasonic frequencies and either smoke or start taking out tweeters.

In fact our good friend KBK saw this problem at a local Vancouver setup where the customer was popping mids and tweets on a regular basis. He changed out the esoteric cable for something far more generic, problem solved.

So those three components are in the cable not to enhance the audio per se, but to counter shortcomings of the cable. What a piece of sh*te!

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post #737 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Party View Post

But the scientific method requires no faith? Hardly. Every methodology used to describe the purported way of the world is faith based. Heck, even resort to logic requires faith.

The Scientific method requires the formulation of an hypothesis based upon observation, which must bear repeated independent testing for the community to have any confidence in it's validity. Subjectivists essentially say: "trust me." The level of faith required to support that position simply is not comparable. Oh, and BTW, any argument from authority is logically fallacious, so I'm afraid you've merely dug that hole a little deeper.
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post #738 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 05:29 AM
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I've heard various versions of the Crick/LSD story. None of them direct quotes from the man.

Since you've corresponded with JNeutron, perhaps if John so agrees and is of the inclination, you'll send him a loaner. I'm not so sure the universe is about balance so much as it is about randomness.

BlueRay, I'm more on your side than not. I simply wish that the deconstruction of the MIT cable had been done with more care so that an electrical model, accurate with respect to the identification of their properties had been done.

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post #739 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

Let me comment on Blu Ray's photo and text:

The inductor, resistor and capacitor is almost guaranteed to be an anti oscillation network due to the high capacitance of the cable. It's a well known fact that some amps will oscillate when connected to a (relatively) high capacitive load, usually esoteric amps where the manufacturer lacks the R&D to put their amp under multiple loads to simulate real life conditions. The amps oscillate at ultrasonic frequencies and either smoke or start taking out tweeters.

Another thing that should be noted about those photos. They are NOT MIT cables. And they are NOT the same technology that MIT uses in their boxes. All component outside of the wire in MIT cables are in parrallel. MIT doesn't 'roll off' the highs, and MIT doesn't put anything in series of the main cable.

I find it funny that a couple of the 'objectivist' here so easily make the judgement that the photos that Blueray posted (which are old and have been around for while) are an indication that ALL cables with network boxes are the same. They're not. And saying so is an out and out lie. So Blueray and QQQ, you guys really don't sound so 'objective' to me.

Look, no matter what I say here, you guys are not going to change your stance. However, if you or anyone else here are truely interested in what MIT products ACTUALLY do, then I would suggest to find a dealer to audition them for yourself. Like I said earlier, even their little AXt modules are beneficial. And they're an inexpensive and easy way to try the technology for yourselves.

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post #740 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 06:22 AM
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The Buddhists don't call it 'The middle way' for nothing. It's about balance.

I see. So you think that no math, no written record, no rigorous testing systems, no education is "balance"? Mmm-hmm.
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The pattern is that the objectivists are slapped down into silence for about a month (when I provide a dang amazing result).

You have got to be kidding. This is the biggest load of horse manure I've ever seen you write, Mr. Blue Shift, and that is saying something.

Your standard modus operandi here is to spout off about something you picked up cruising the net or some "alternative" science journal. It's something that you either quite obviously don't understand or which is based on specious free energy pseudoscience or whatnot. When you're called on it, you prattle about the limitations of western science or the neoconservatives or the men in black vans parked outside your house.

Most of the time you're vague and/or incoherent, something you blame on anything from simple trade secret protection to the need to protect yourself from the international geopolitical forces working against you, depending on your mood that day. On the rare occasions when you actually provide something relatively coherent and concrete it has proven relatively easy to refute (hence my nickname for you above).

Is that what you call slapping us down? If so, slap away, but I don't think JNeutron or any other serious thinker who reads your material is fooled.

Michael
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post #741 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 06:36 AM
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"All component outside of the wire in MIT cables are in parrallel. MIT doesn't 'roll off' the highs, and MIT doesn't put anything in series of the main cable."

A component in parallel can roll of the highs too.That is basically what a series crossover is. A capacitor in parallel with the speaker will roll off the high end. An inductor in parallel will roll off the bottom end.

Shawn
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post #742 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"All component outside of the wire in MIT cables are in parrallel. MIT doesn't 'roll off' the highs, and MIT doesn't put anything in series of the main cable."

A component in parallel can roll of the highs too.That is basically what a series crossover is. A capacitor in parallel with the speaker will roll off the high end. An inductor in parallel will roll off the bottom end.

Shawn

Um... I'm talking about parrallel to the speaker cable itself. You're talking about parallel to the speaker. So not the same thing. You can run a straght wire from your amp to your speakers, and also run in parallel, an MIT speaker cable and still get the advantage. I know this, because I heard it first hand at the RMAF. They had a speaker 'bi-wired' with a straight piece of MIT's 'in-wall' rated wire, and a MIT Magnum MA cable. As I said before, the guy was behind the speaker setting things up, and simply unplugged the Magnum MA while there was music playing through the system, leaving the 'in-wall' rated wire still connected. The sound field immediately collapsed.

This wasn't a demo. I wasn't even looking at the guy or the system when the guy did this. But while talking to a friend, we both heard the sound drastically change, and turned our heads, and saw what he had just done. So no one can say is was 'in our heads' or 'our imaginations'. We weren't even actively listening when this happend. And the MIT guy was just getting things ready for the day's show.

Look, audition MIT, or don't. But if you insist on continuing to knock MIT's products without any actual experience with them, then you're simply talking out of your keesters.

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post #743 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 06:55 AM
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An example being Crick, nearly on his deathbed, admitting to a horrified near-religious-about-structure 'system' of 'investigation', in his given field..that he intuited the basics of the DNA spiral while wasted on LSD. Horror of horrors!

OK, let’s talk balance.

The discovery of the double helix is one of the more controversial areas in biology. Certainly the discovery was dependent on the understanding of X-ray diffraction theory, which is a fairly mathematical undertaking. Rosalind Franklin had generated the Xray data, and knew that the structure was some type of helix, and knew the phosphate backbone was on the outside. Chargaff discovered that there were 4 base pairs and that A=T and G=C. Watson then built his cardboard model, and saw how the hydrogen bonds lined up. This quickly led to the concept of a double helix composed of two strands of DNA in a ‘parallel – anti-parallel” configuration. Linus Pauling was also actively working on the structure of DNA and certainly would have soon deduced its structure had Watson and Crick not discovered it first. The paper: “Molecular structure of Nucleic Acids” was published in Nature in April of 1953.

Aldous Huxley 1st tried mescaline in 1953, and 1st tried LSD on Christmas Eve 1955. “The Doors of Perception” was published in 1954. Crick read Huxley and was a big fan. Crick refused to discuss any alleged drug use, although he advocated the legalization of Marihuana, and seemed to have an intimate knowledge of LSD. He was also a friend to other intellects who used LSD in the ‘60’s. Yet, it appears unlikely that he took LSD or any psychotropic during the time period prior to ’53, nor is it important to the discovery of DNA’s structure.
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post #744 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 07:08 AM
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"Um... I'm talking about parrallel to the speaker cable itself. You're talking about parallel to the speaker. "

If the component connects from positive to negative (parallel connection) in the cable that IS in parallel with the speaker.

"You can run a straght wire from your amp to your speakers, and also run in parallel, an MIT speaker cable and still get the advantage."

And a parallel filter would still be active in that setup. A capacitor in parallel would still roll off the top end even with another set of cables hooked up. As frequency increases the capacitors impedance will get lower and lower which at some point (determined by the value of the capacitor and the impedance of the speaker) will begin dumping more and more high frequency material to ground bypassing the speaker. This result in a first order low pass filter.

An inductor in parallel has the opposite effect. As frequency drops its impedance drops and at some point (again determined the value of the inductor and the impedance of the speaker) will begin dumping more and more low frequency material to ground bypassing the speaker. This results in a first order high pass filter.

Path of least resistance (OHMs Law) and all that.

Shawn
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post #745 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 07:11 AM
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BTW the first order slope of the filters referenced above would be when connected to a load with a flat impedance. If the speakers impedance varied wildly in the area of the filters response the response of the filter will vary wildly too.

Shawn
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post #746 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 07:34 AM
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Rutgar, I'm with sfogg on this one. (Not that you're surprised.) You're making distinctions without a difference.

Michael
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post #747 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 08:00 AM
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Ken, sounds like there's a million bucks just waiting for you to reach out and take it with your new cables!

(I'm sure James Randi would be more than happy to perform the test at a secret undisclosed location so as not to tip off the Men In Black...)
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post #748 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 08:26 AM
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Rutgar, I'm with sfogg on this one. (Not that you're surprised.) You're making distinctions without a difference.

Michael, I'm not really sure what you're saying. But let me try and clarify my position. If you have a capacitor in parallel with a single piece of straight wire. You're still going have a 'short' because of the low wire resistance. So a pair of straight wires going to a speaker box, is going to be a 'short' compared to anything else that might be in parallel with that same set of wires. And I'm NOT talking about something in parallel to the individual wires of the straight speaker wires. Becuase in that case, that would be some sort of filter.

Bottom line is though, all of this talk about networks, filters, etc., is just a smoke screen. We can't really discuss what's in the MIT boxes because it's a closly guarded secret and has many patents. So whatever is or isn't in them, is moot. What does matter is what the end result is. And for me, it's a result that I found appealing in my own system. I'm not trying to sell anyone anything here. I'm simply pointing out the the effect of MIT's multipole technology is real, it works, and it's noticable to anyone who will actually give their products a fair and comparable listen. From there, it's up to each individual as to whether or not the price of the MIT's worth it to them for what they do. For me, it was a yes. For someone else... maybe not.

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post #749 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 08:37 AM
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Well, not really. If you have a capacitor in parallel with a single piece of straight wire. You're still going have a 'short' because of the low wire resistance. So a pair of straight wires going to a speaker box, is going to be a 'short' compared to anything else that might be in parallel with that same set of wires.

I seriously doubt that's what MIT is doing, because what you're describing truly would have no electrical effect whatsoever. One thing I think we have to agree on is that MIT intends for its network boxes to have some sort of electrical effect, even if we don't know precisely what it is.
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We can't really discuss what's in the MIT boxes because it's a closly guarded secret and has many patents.

Yes, it is a closely guarded secret, although their own marketing literature would lead you to believe otherwise. In it there are quite technical-sounding descriptions of what their network boxes accomplish: "multipole technology", "articulation bandwidth", and so forth. They offer the "Multipole Explained" document as a PDF file. The problem is, it doesn't explain anything, really, because this notion of "articulation pole" is non-standard terminology so that they can appear to explain what their product does while actually revealing nothing substantive.
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Bottom line is though, all of this talk about networks, filters, etc., is just a smoke screen.

Nonsense. It didn't seem like a smoke screen to you when you used BluRay's photos to differentiate Transparent's products from MIT's. Then you were more than happy to point out objective reasons why MIT's cables were superior.

Michael
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post #750 of 1770 Old 10-17-2007, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

I seriously doubt that's what MIT is doing, because what you're describing truly would have no electrical effect whatsoever.

Exactly my point! The way it was wired at the RMAF it shouldn't have had any electrical effect. But it did. One pair of cables acted as a direct 'short'. A pair of Magnum MA's was also connected in "parallel" and the effect was quite obvious. So the conclusion HAS to be that whatever it is going on that it's NOT a typical filter found in a speaker crossover, and that whatever it is, it works in total parallel to regular straight speaker wire.

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Nonsense. It didn't seem like a smoke screen to you when you used BluRay's photos to differentiate Transparent's products from MIT's. Then you were more than happy to point out objective reasons why MIT's cables were superior.

Now you're laying a smoke screen on top of a smoke screen. It was Blueray who claimed that the photos also represented MIT's cable boxes. I simply pointed out that he was lying.

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