Who Has Done a True DBT Audio Test? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 120 Old 11-13-2007, 03:56 PM
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What do you offer as a viable alternative, Bulldogger, to sighted, no level matching, listening evaluations that can span hours if not weeks and months?

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post #62 of 120 Old 11-13-2007, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

What do you offer as a viable alternative, Bulldogger, to sighted, no level matching, listening evaluations that can span hours if not weeks and months?

Well if you put it that way. I guess it is a more useful than sighted listening.

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post #63 of 120 Old 11-13-2007, 05:39 PM
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When you drive amps beyond their design limits, what you found is expected

Yes, strange how the results followed what science predicted... :-)
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post #64 of 120 Old 11-13-2007, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I've seen it quite a few times. Guess I never have taken it that seriously.

There is more than one valid way to implement DBT. E.g.,in sensory testing we have ABC(HR), ABX, ABXY....the implementations vary with what question is being asked. Obviously a randomized DBT of multiple subjects in a drug trial is not quite the same protocol as an audio DBT where we are testing one person's claim of audible difference. They all share randomization and 'double blindness' however. ABX happens to be particularly suited to testing for perception of audible difference -- where we seek a yes/no answer rather than a quality rating. And no, the subject doesn't HAVE to know what two things are being compared, but neither is it required for them NOT TO. That's context dependent too. When the subject already claims to know the diff between two particular things, you compare those two things. When the question is more abstract, you needn't necessarily tell the subject what is being compared. You can just ask them to tell (in the case of ABX) whether X =A or X=B. (And btw, if A and B don't sound different to them, then they are consciously GUESSING, which may invalidate the test...it's kind of pointless to continue to test someone who sincerely claims NOT to hear differences during the test itself)

Have you read any of the links I posted about ABX? If you want to know more you could ask at www.hydrogenaudio.org. In addition to the HA page I already linked to, they also have a wiki page about ABX.
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post #65 of 120 Old 11-14-2007, 10:59 AM
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No, I did not read any more of the links. Thanks for them. It's interesting stuff. I once made my living doing such test and was excited to do published work. Now this is just a hobby for me. Trust me, I'm very aware of what kind of results you get with DBT. Now, I make my living about as far away from Exp. psychology as one could imagine. But then, if I were in that field, I would not be able to afford all of this nice sounding stuff. Why don't some of you make some recommendations as to what your experience has taught you are sound buying decisions based upon ABX. Electronics, speakers? Just curious. Pick any budget that you like and let me know what you think.

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post #66 of 120 Old 11-19-2007, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

This is NOT double blind testing. In true double blind, you would not even be sure if ANY change had been made.

That is the purpose of X, which is randomly chosesn as either A or B. ABX is indeed double-blind testing.

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post #67 of 120 Old 11-19-2007, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

No, I did not read any more of the links. Thanks for them. It's interesting stuff. I once made my living doing such test and was excited to do published work. Now this is just a hobby for me. Trust me, I'm very aware of what kind of results you get with DBT. Now, I make my living about as far away from Exp. psychology as one could imagine. But then, if I were in that field, I would not be able to afford all of this nice sounding stuff. Why don't some of you make some recommendations as to what your experience has taught you are sound buying decisions based upon ABX. Electronics, speakers? Just curious. Pick any budget that you like and let me know what you think.

These mostly aren't based on personal ABX. They're based on good research done by others such as Floyd Toole.

Spend the bulk of your budget on speakers and room treatment. Buy speakers with good (even) on- and off-axis response, in low-resonance enclosures. Experiment with speaker and listener placement. Your placement options will multiply if you employ subwoofers. Consider digital bass management, levels, distance correction and room correction, as well as multichannel sources and playback. Buy an amp/receiver that can drive your speakers to your preferred levels without clipping.

Frankly, everything else in the signal chain that's controllable by the user, pales in significance to the sonic effects of what I've listed above.
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post #68 of 120 Old 11-20-2007, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

These mostly aren't based on personal ABX. They're based on good research done by others such as Floyd Toole.

Spend the bulk of your budget on speakers and room treatment. Buy speakers with good (even) on- and off-axis response, in low-resonance enclosures. Experiment with speaker and listener placement. Your placement options will multiply if you employ subwoofers. Consider digital bass management, levels, distance correction and room correction, as well as multichannel sources and playback. Buy an amp/receiver that can drive your speakers to your preferred levels without clipping.

Frankly, everything else in the signal chain that's controllable by the user, pales in significance to the sonic effects of what I've listed above.

Do you own audio and video equipment? What did YOU buy? Sure I know about room treatments, yadaydayda. I have a thread on diffusers here in this section of the forum. Guys laud ABX so I want to see if what you would buy matches what I think sounds great. I mean walk the walk.

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post #69 of 120 Old 11-20-2007, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Do you own audio and video equipment?

Of course. Have you read any of Floyd Toole's work? Do you have a clue why I've made the recommendations I made?

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What did YOU buy? Sure I know about room treatments, yadaydayda. I have a thread on diffusers here in this section of the forum. Guys laud ABX so I want to see if what you would buy matches what I think sounds great. I mean walk the walk.

That's not walking the walk. That's a pissing contest. I certainly don't give a flying rat's rear about what you think about what I own. My system is a conglomerate of stuff bought over the course of a decade or so; I certainly don't claim it adheres to all the advice given above -- and that's because I've learned a lot over those years. Indeed, my next purchase is likely to be new loudspeakers, based on the advice I give above. I already use room treatment, a subwoofer, digital room correction, and multichannel playback -- that pretty much covers what I wrote, right?

So, care to challenge any of that advice on its merits, or are you just looking to play a 'gotcha' game that you've already lost?

And btw, have you seen the results of Mike Lavigne's blind cable comparison?
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post #70 of 120 Old 11-20-2007, 02:50 PM
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Well, whatever you have krabapple, make sure to polish your AC plugs. That way if anyone says your system sucks, you can always say, but you've never heard it polished plugs.

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post #71 of 120 Old 11-21-2007, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Of course. Have you read any of Floyd Toole's work? Do you have a clue why I've made the recommendations I made?



That's not walking the walk. That's a pissing contest. I certainly don't give a flying rat's rear about what you think about what I own.
And btw, have you seen the results of Mike Lavigne's blind cable comparison?

Yes, I have seen Floyd Toole's work and read a lot of other's positions on the subject as well. Yes I know why you asked about if I was familiar with Floyd's position. I want to know YOURS as you are not Floyd Toole and I have read already a lot of what Floyd says. If it's your position that you use DBT to buy audio gear then show how you have used that method to buy stuff yourself. . My position is that you just listen to the gear and buy what you think sounds best. That's what I do. I think most who advocate DBT don't actually use it themselves. Beside I first ask for recommendations of gear based upon your experience using DBT. You don't have to state what you actually own if that bothers you. That's why I phrased it that way FIRST. Ok, I got 10K to spend, what would you buy based upon DBT? You can pick the price point and make a recommendation. Gotta confess, it it's not high-end gear, I'll likley have no opinion. Ask me the same question about my method and I'll gladly recommend a pre-amp or speakers or an amplifier that I like. I think Mcintosh's new C2300 pre-amp has outstanding measurements and sounds great!! How's that? That's all I am asking that you do. If you ridicule my "sighted" method, I'd like to see the results of yours. That is not a pissing contest. It is just backing up your position. . I have learned quite a lot about acoustical treatments. I'll be glad to show you some pictures of my room with large DIY bass traps , DIY absorption panels, and diffusers. I have experimented with parametric eq and have several measurements of my room. I have a chart with records of my measurements at each mike position that I keep in my file cabinet. How about you? Is your room treated? Pics?

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post #72 of 120 Old 11-21-2007, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Well, whatever you have krabapple, make sure to polish your AC plugs. That way if anyone says your system sucks, you can always say, but you've never heard it polished plugs.

Well we know that all he needs is a 25.00 CD player as they sound identical to a 5 thousand dollar one. Right? How about you? What do you recommend? Can I pick up some amps at Radio Shack that will match the ones I am using now? Do all amps sound the same? All CD players? Help me out. I am just a dumb audiophile who doesn't know anything. Show me the light. or rather the dark, blind test results.

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post #73 of 120 Old 11-21-2007, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Well, whatever you have krabapple, make sure to polish your AC plugs. That way if anyone says your system sucks, you can always say, but you've never heard it polished plugs.

Well we know that all he needs is a 25.00 CD player as they sound identical to a 5 thousand dollar one. Right? How about you? What do you recommend? Can I pick up some amps at Radio Shack that will match the ones I am using now? Do all amps sound the same? All CD players? Help me out.Show me the light. or rather the dark, blind test results.

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post #74 of 120 Old 11-21-2007, 02:44 PM
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You know a subjectivist is floundering when he resorts to absurd overstatement of the objectivist position. That, and making demands for equipment lists and pics. It's never pretty to see.

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post #75 of 120 Old 11-21-2007, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Yes, I have seen Floyd Toole's work and read a lot of other's positions on the subject as well. Yes I know why you asked about if I was familiar with Floyd's position. I want to know YOURS as you are not Floyd Toole and I have read already a lot of what Floyd says. If it's your position that you use DBT to buy audio gear then show how you have used that method to buy stuff yourself.


My position is not that I use DBT to make purchases. My position is that many claims made about comparative sonic attributes of gear and formats, are unreliable without DBT evidence or evidence from measurements.

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My position is that you just listen to the gear and buy what you think sounds best. That's what I do.


And then what claims do you make about the sound of your gear? That it sounds better than X? Bzzzt. That's where audiophiles make fools of themselves, by ignoring the existence of psychological biasing factors....something science has long recognized and accounted for.

The difference between you and me, then, is that while neither of us uses DBT directly to buy gear (I'd be happy to, though if the option were offered to me), I don't make unsubstantiated claims about the sound of my gear.


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Ok, I got 10K to spend, what would you buy based upon DBT?

Based on DBT? Well, I guess you'd want to buy an ABX comparator first. They used to go for $600, so after that you have PLENTY to spend on stuff that you've proven to yourself , sounds different.

Me, I'd spend a bunch on speakers that adhere to the qualities of 'good sounding speakers' elucidated by the CRC/Harman work done by Toole and Olive-- which used DBTs in its research. IIRC, Mirage, JBL, and a few other companies (usually Canada-based) sell speakers that do that. And I'd spend another bunch on either self-made or commercially-made room treatments, like Ethan Winer's Realtraps, or the Rives Audio stuff. In fact, I might spend a few thou and have Rives or Terry Montlick do a full acoustic work-up of my space. Or invest in great measuring gear and software myself.

The remaining piddly amount would be spent on commodity gear, like AVRs, digital front ends, and cables. There, it's mainly down to what features they offer (including how loud they can play without distortion), what formats they play, what connectors they have, respectively.


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You can pick the price point and make a recommendation. Gotta confess, it it's not high-end gear, I'll likley have no opinion.

Gotta confess, I honestly don't care what your recommendations are, and your sighted evaluations are worthless to me. Come up with some new tricks, doggie, if you want me to keep throwing you treats.
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post #76 of 120 Old 11-21-2007, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Well we know that all he needs is a 25.00 CD player as they sound identical to a 5 thousand dollar one. Right?

You know what must scare the piss out of you, doggie? That sometimes that might be true.

I recommend the Oppo line, myself. I think their top price is a few hundred bucks, and they play just about anything you can throw at them on disc.


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How about you? What do you recommend? Can I pick up some amps at Radio Shack that will match the ones I am using now? Do all amps sound the same?

When they're level-matched and not driven to distortion, chances are they do. You got evidence that says otherwise? (Hint: your sighted testimony doesn't count)



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All CD players? Help me out. I am just a dumb audiophile who doesn't know anything. Show me the light. or rather the dark, blind test results.

No one says 'all X sound the same" without qualification, you dumb audiophile.
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post #77 of 120 Old 11-21-2007, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

You know a subjectivist is floundering when he resorts to absurd overstatement of the objectivist position. That, and making demands for equipment lists and pics. It's never pretty to see.

Must be what happens when a psychologist has a psychological breakdown resulting in audiophile-rage.

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post #78 of 120 Old 11-21-2007, 03:41 PM
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What, is Michael Fremer in the house?
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post #79 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

No one says 'all X sound the same" without qualification, you dumb audiophile.

Exactly what I thought. You can't back up your position with examples and have to just resort to name calling. Admit it. YOU brought up room treatments. That was a farce as you can't back that up either. I have seen many objectionist say that all CD players sound the same. Remember the "perfect sound forever." I mean how can perfect sound different? Radio Shack just as good too? OoooooK.

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post #80 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

You know a subjectivist is floundering when he resorts to absurd overstatement of the objectivist position. That, and making demands for equipment lists and pics. It's never pretty to see.

What's the big deal about backing up your position? If for example you say your car is just as fast as mine. Can't I ask what kind of car it is? Many objectionist have said that all CD players sound the same.

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post #81 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

You know what must scare the piss out of you, doggie? That sometimes that might be true.
.

Not at all. I know from my work that the real fool here maybe you. Unless you can say that all of the food products you buy are generics, you are the one who is being made a fool of and may not even know it. You could save yourself much much more than audiophiles spend on cables by stopping being suckered into buying brand name food products. Those products do not beat generic in DBT. Bet you got a Sh11 load of them at home right now?

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post #82 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 05:09 AM
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My position is not that I use DBT to make purchases. .

Then let's just cut the crap and say that you do the same thing as audiophiles and make purchases based upon sighted listening. Futher, not one of you on this thread is making product decisions with prerhaps exception of cables based upon ABX or DBT.

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post #83 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 05:21 AM
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not one of you on this thread is making product decisions with prerhaps exception of cables based upon ABX or DBT.

Well some smart people do the tests (you can be smart without it too but....), IMO if you are not doing these test you dont really know the truth.

Hey, its your money and there are worse things to blow it on.

I have DBTed 2K receivers vs $200 receivers using separate amps, you dont want to know the truth of that one and not that you care but the same can be said about 10K vs 5K or 2K sometimes.

Not all are the same but the some people do waste a ton off money on products that truely dont improve anything but dont let that stop you. Room treatments for one will improve a system 10 fold before equipment does (like you posted!)

Please dont ever do a DBT either I wouldnt want you to ruin your hobby!!

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post #84 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 05:26 AM
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If you ridicule my "sighted" method, I'd like to see the results of yours. That is not a pissing contest. It is just backing up your position.


You dont believe that the "placebo" effect is very strong? There are hundreds of case studies out there are you just ignoring?

"Sighted" method is a seriously flawed method, if you put a 10K option and a 5K option in front of the customer and he knows the price tag, 9 out of 10 times he will decide the 10K option sounded better. Not that he would buy it but his decision is tainted once he knew the price tags.


I love your tag line.....Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.词典

Its really ironic

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post #85 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Well some smart people do the tests (you can be smart without it too but....), IMO if you are not doing these test you dont really know the truth.

Hey, its your money and there are worse things to blow it on.

I have DBTed 2K receivers vs $200 receivers using separate amps, you dont want to know the truth of that one

Not all are the same but the some people do waste a ton off money on products that truely dont improve anything but dont let that stop you.

Please dont ever do a DBT either I wouldnt want you to ruin your hobby!!

I have performed many DBT. I know the results. I also know that most of those on the high horses making fun of audiophile buy a ton of other stuff that is just as much of a farce. Are audiophiles "being had?" Of course but so is everyone every day of the week at the supermarket and in every facet of life in which they make purchasing decisions based upon subjective measures. Our memory is poor and our senses are poor too. Ever wonder why everything taste like chicken?

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post #86 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 05:37 AM
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Are audiophiles "being had?" Of course but so is everyone every day of the week at the supermarket and in every facet of life in which they make purchasing decisions based upon subjective measures. Our memory is poor and our senses are poor too. Ever wonder why everything taste like chicken?

so true!

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post #87 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You dont believe that the "placebo" effect is very strong? There are hundreds of case studies out there are you just ignoring?

"Sighted" method is a seriously flawed method, if you put a 10K option and a 5K option in front of the customer and he knows the price tag, 9 out of 10 times he will decide the 10K option sounded better. Not that he would buy it but his decision is tainted once he knew the price tags.


I love your tag line.....Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.词典

Its really ironic

Go back in the thread and read my post on placebo effect. You must have not read it to think that I don't understand it. Sure someone will pick the 10k stuff as sounding better. They will also pick a more attractive person as being smarter than a less attractive person, a more expensive car as being superior to a less expensive car, a person with glasses as being smarter than a person without, all based upon EXPECTATION or when that expectation takes the form of an experiment, placebo. As for my sig., oh it's very appropriate. Imagine someone with the experience in experimental psychology that I have being so attached to the theories that I can't even buy a loaf of bread or date a beautiful woman? Some life that would be. This is just a hobby for me. There is a place for science in that hobby. Only geeks are so attached to science that they can not lead a normal life. Being so attached to my education that I could not lead a "normal" life,now that's being blinded. For the record, three of the biggest "tweaks," I know are engineers, one for NASA and one with a PHD. How could that be? Because they are able to just live life and not be force to live life as the geeks we are beneath.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #88 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 06:17 AM
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I see your point of view now!

Quote:


They will also pick a more attractive person as being smarter than a less attractive person

I always thought the less attractive person was smarter in the public's eye

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #89 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I see your point of view now!



I always thought the less attractive person was smarter in the public's eye

No, the beautiful person is considered more attractive according the the Social Psychology studies. TV news anchors for example and SOMETIMES political candidates. Not now though as there are some U.S. Presidential candidates that I consider down right ugly. When I was an undergrad we conducted an experiment and asked subjects to make judgements based solely upon a picture about the qualities of the subjects presented in photographs. Hey if you are beautiful, then you are associated with all of the positive adjectives. Ugly and it's easier to attribute even criminal characteristics to the person.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #90 of 120 Old 11-22-2007, 06:41 AM
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Wow! Honestly What a strange study. Considering that Engineers, Geeks, Scientists, PhDs in General are not good looking and are considered smarter.

bw, I think politicians are seldom smart, they just have lots of money and can "sell" crap to the dumb public!!

Anyhow....enough of the fun OT stuff.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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