Observations of a controlled Cable Test - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 09:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Swampfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee (QSC) View Post

It seems to me the only thing stressful about a good DBT would be if the listener feels he or she has to "prove" something, like "I just have to hear a difference between these cables … otherwise, what will people think of me?"

Anyone who finds any of this remotely stressful needs to get a life.
Swampfox is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 10:14 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Michael Grant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
I think that's more than a bit harsh! There's nothing wrong with having a good solid passion for something like audiophilia; and if there's one thing we probably agree on it's that Mike L. is among the most passionate. A serious challenge to one's passion, no matter what the circumstances, is going to be stressful, even if undertaken voluntarily.

Besides, I would argue that a stress-free life isn't a particularly exciting one. If that's the life to "get" count me out!

Michael
Michael Grant is offline  
post #93 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 10:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Swampfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

I think that's more than a bit harsh! There's nothing wrong with having a good solid passion for something like audiophilia; and if there's one thing we probably agree on it's that Mike L. is among the most passionate. A serious challenge to one's passion, no matter what the circumstances, is going to be stressful, even if undertaken voluntarily.

Besides, I would argue that a stress-free life isn't a particularly exciting one. If that's the life to "get" count me out!

My life is far from stress free. Spending two hours doing a DBT on cables would be a holiday!
Swampfox is offline  
post #94 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 10:28 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Michael Grant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Well yeah but for you and I, cables aren't a budgetary concern!

Michael
Michael Grant is offline  
post #95 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 10:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Swampfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

Well yeah but for you and I, cables aren't a budgetary concern!

Very True.
Swampfox is offline  
post #96 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 11:07 AM
 
tbrunet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 2,750
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Anyone who spends ~$43K on speaker cables does NOT have a budget
tbrunet is offline  
post #97 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 11:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Curt Palme's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 18,957
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Frankly, I didn't really get the 'stress' part of the a/b testing either, but didn't comment..why is a/b testing stressful?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- CRT tech info


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-pro audio website
Curt Palme is offline  
post #98 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 11:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Swampfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrunet View Post

Anyone who spends ~$43K on speaker cables does NOT have a budget

Reminds me of a quote :
"I gave him an unlimited budget and he exceeded it".
Swampfox is offline  
post #99 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 11:19 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Michael Grant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Curt---I would say that on its own, blind testing is perhaps cumbersome and tedious but not stressful. As Bob and I both suggested, the stress comes from the expectations placed on the tests; in this case, that Mike was submitting to a serious challenge to his orthodoxy.

Michael
Michael Grant is offline  
post #100 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 11:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Swampfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

Curt---I would say that on its own, blind testing is perhaps cumbersome and tedious but not stressful. As Bob and I both suggested, the stress comes from the expectations placed on the tests; in this case, that Mike was submitting to a serious challenge to his orthodoxy.

Let's give Mike some credit here. From my understanding he manages a large Automobile dealership. I think he can handle the stress.
Swampfox is offline  
post #101 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 11:45 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Chu Gai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NYC area
Posts: 14,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked: 463
The stress also comes from a lack of practice.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
Chu Gai is online now  
post #102 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 11:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Andrikos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 3,911
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post

Let's give Mike some credit here. From my understanding he manages a large Automobile dealership.

"What can I do to help you ABX speaker cables today?"

Next projector will have LEDs, >=1080 res, >=10 bit color, >14bit CR, >9 bit ANSI CR, >=120Hz, >16ft.L on 12ft 2.35:1 screen, <$12bit price


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Andrikos is offline  
post #103 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 11:46 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Michael Grant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Swampfox---I did not mean to imply he couldn't handle it! I just wanted to acknowledge that it's there and say that it's commendable to face it down.

Michael
Michael Grant is offline  
post #104 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 11:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Swampfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant View Post

Swampfox---I did not mean to imply he couldn't handle it! I just wanted to acknowledge that it's there and say that it's commendable to face it down.


I'm just saying that we are blowing the stress thing way out of proportion. Frankly, I admire Mike L for doing the test and the way he's handled himself.
Swampfox is offline  
post #105 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 12:55 PM
Advanced Member
 
jj_0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the rain
Posts: 752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee (QSC) View Post

They are no more insensitive to subtle sonic differences than sighted tests are. They are, however, amazingly insensitive to imagined sonic differences, which is why they are far more valuable than sighted tests.

Amen, Bob!

What's more, the performance of DBT's in threshold tests gets down to within -->||<-- of the maximum sensitivity permitted by physics.

The evidence for the sensitivity of DBT's is present and accounted for.

The evidence for the total, absolute inaccuracy of sighted testing for small differences due to the auditory sense is also present, accounted for, and overwhelming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Risch View Post

Don't be discouraged by the results, many of these kinds of listening tests are amazingly INSENSITIVE to subtle sonic differences, and the fact that you thought that you were hearing things under the sighted informal sessions before the formal session really doesn't mean much, the formal portion literally changes the way your brain works and 'analyzes' the music.

Jon, please provide me with some concrete, testable, verifiable evidence in support of that claim. It is an extraordinary claim that is directly opposite the entire experience of the credible psychoacoustics community.

In short, my experience with DBT's, is that they and cognates are the only valid kind of auditory testing in existance, that they have shown no such problem at all, of course presuming training and feedback after the decision, as well as a substantial acclimation period.

If somebody didn't find anything, and the test was well done, the overwhelmingly most likely meaning is that there was nothing to hear in the test.

There is, in science, no absolute negative proof, only a cumulative weight of evidence, and that is solidly and incontrovertably, in all cases, on the side of the properly run DBT or cognate.

It is also just as certain that sighted tests are so prone to inadvertant, honest human error, that they are, unless differences are enormous, completely unreliable for the purpose of detecting differences due only to auditory stimulii.

James D. (jj) Johnston
jj_0001 is offline  
post #106 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 01:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bob Lee (QSC)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Costa Mesa, California
Posts: 1,864
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post

I'm just saying that we are blowing the stress thing way out of proportion. Frankly, I admire Mike L for doing the test and the way he's handled himself.

+1 here.

Bob Lee
Applications Engineer
QSC Audio Products, LLC
Costa Mesa, Calif.

Secretary,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Bob Lee (QSC) is offline  
post #107 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 01:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
krabapple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: in a state bordered by Kentucky and Maine
Posts: 5,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Mr. Risch may be right, about different brain activity occuring in 'sighted' vs 'blind', but it doesn't have the implications he thinks it does.

This is a quote from the wiki article on placebo effects. The date links to the actual article by McClure et al published in Neuron, a highly respected scientific journal of neurobiology.

Quote:


A complex fMRI-centred study by McClure, et al. (2004) on the brain responses of subjects who had previously expressed a preference for one or other of the similar soft drinks Pepsi and Coca-Cola, demonstrated that "brand information", which "significantly influences subjects’ expressed preferences", is processed in an entirely different brain area from the area activated in blind taste tests (when their "preferences are determined solely from sensory information").[33] This supports the claim that there are unconscious brain processes that activate the "placebo response".

This certainly doesn't imply that sighted judgement is MORE ACCURATE than judgement from 'pure' sensory input (blind). It implies that 'sighted' input activates a different brain area than 'taste data' input, and the judgment is affected by this -- it's virtually DECOUPLED from actual taste input. That leads to things like inaccurate identification of the drink. People who have a stated preference for Coke, will not be able to tell if it's Coke when blinded...and they will state a preference for 'Coke' even when it's really Pepsi with a Coke label on it. This 'cultural' bias has a brain activity correlate.

Here's the actual abstract of the Neuron paper:

Quote:


Coca-Cola® (Coke®) and Pepsi® are nearly identical in chemical composition, yet humans routinely display strong subjective preferences for one or the other. This simple observation raises the important question of how cultural messages combine with content to shape our perceptions; even to the point of modifying behavioral preferences for a primary reward like a sugared drink. We delivered Coke and Pepsi to human subjects in behavioral taste tests and also in passive experiments carried out during functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). Two conditions were examined: (1) anonymous delivery of Coke and Pepsi and (2) brand-cued delivery of Coke and Pepsi. For the anonymous task, we report a consistent neural response in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex that correlated with subjects' behavioral preferences for these beverages. In the brand-cued experiment, brand knowledge for one of the drinks had a dramatic influence on expressed behavioral preferences and on the measured brain responses.

krabapple is offline  
post #108 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 01:34 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:


Anyone who finds any of this remotely stressful needs to get a life.

lmao, honestly, work has been really boring in the past couple of months so I have to come on here to get excited and alteast create a good amount of stress......I would be falling asleep otherwise

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #109 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 02:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Swampfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

lmao, honestly, work has been really boring in the past couple of months so I have to come on here to get excited and alteast create a good amount of stress......I would be falling asleep otherwise

Now, if the listener received an electrical shock everytime he picked the wrong cable . . . that would be stressful.
Swampfox is offline  
post #110 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 04:20 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,978
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post

Now, if the listener received an electrical shock everytime he picked the wrong cable . . . that would be stressful.

Are you implying that electric shocks are not standard protocol for blind testing?!!

(Rich goes back to drawing board, realization of why people refuse to take part in any more of his tests begins to dawn...)

Rich H


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R Harkness is offline  
post #111 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 04:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CharlesJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike lavigne View Post

an even greater desire for discovery.

That is saying something great. Enjoy the visit with family, the trip to FL and at your leisure return to this avenue of discovery.
CharlesJ is offline  
post #112 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 04:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Chu Gai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NYC area
Posts: 14,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked: 463
I think you can find 'clubs' where people are into that sort of thing, Richard.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
Chu Gai is online now  
post #113 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 05:57 PM
QQQ
AVS Addicted Member
 
QQQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,998
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Surprising ? No.. Remarkable? Certainly.. From the start MikeL has been a gentlemen even in he face of ad hominem posts...

Frantz,

I believe it is surprising insofar as the normal reaction when a persons core beliefs are challenged is to make excuses and cry foul. In fact, when it comes to people failing cable tests it occurs nearly 100% of the time. So for me yes, Mike's reaction is surprising, and that is a compliment .
QQQ is offline  
post #114 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 09:18 PM
Advanced Member
 
JJay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 856
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
MikeL-it seems that it wasn't too long ago that you were going to leave this forum for good and I have been happy to see that you have not only stayed but have become active again. Know that if you keep on this path of cable testing and show that you can tell the difference in cables you will change me into a believer. But until then ....

Mr Hirsh-your post is a fabulous diatribe in denial. Your disciples should be proud....

Jaime

If you can't say anything kind at least have the decency to be vague...
JJay is offline  
post #115 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 11:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dizzman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 5,251
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I will agree with the stress thing.

Almost any kind of testing is stressful. not because i might fail or pass, but because i have to pay attention to things that are normally not part of my focus.

As an example, i just had to do an evaluation of Telepresence solutions. when conducting the conference, my brain was going at double speed analyzing the latency, the audio, the video, trying to then break apart what is related to the codec's and what is related to the gear... etc, etc, etc. So while others came out of the demo saying how awesome it was, i had 100 times more input to process and was wiped after a one hour meeting.

So in any case where a test is happening and you are being serious about it, you will find it stressful due to the fact that you are recording far more stimulus than if you were just sitting back getting comfortably numb.

Proud Daddy to
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Dizzman is offline  
post #116 of 384 Old 11-20-2007, 11:57 PM
QQQ
AVS Addicted Member
 
QQQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,998
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I have not read every post so I don't know what has or has not been said about the stress thing but "stress" is another red herring. Stress might cause some people to fail in certain endeavors, I'm sure some people fail the bar test because of stress, yet amazingly, many people sill manage to pass and become attorney's. Since audiophiles ALWAYS fail the cable comparison test, I think we can logically conclude that stress is not the primary causative factor.
QQQ is offline  
post #117 of 384 Old 11-21-2007, 12:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Peter M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,350
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 37
A personal quest for the truth has to be admired.

Peter M


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Peter M is offline  
post #118 of 384 Old 11-21-2007, 04:42 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Chu Gai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NYC area
Posts: 14,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked: 463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

I will agree with the stress thing.

Almost any kind of testing is stressful. not because i might fail or pass, but because i have to pay attention to things that are normally not part of my focus.

As an example, i just had to do an evaluation of Telepresence solutions. when conducting the conference, my brain was going at double speed analyzing the latency, the audio, the video, trying to then break apart what is related to the codec's and what is related to the gear... etc, etc, etc. So while others came out of the demo saying how awesome it was, i had 100 times more input to process and was wiped after a one hour meeting.

So in any case where a test is happening and you are being serious about it, you will find it stressful due to the fact that you are recording far more stimulus than if you were just sitting back getting comfortably numb.

OK Dizz, but how do you think your stress level would've been had that been the 10th time you'd seen it?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
Chu Gai is online now  
post #119 of 384 Old 11-21-2007, 04:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
NIN74's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Skoghall, va, Sweden
Posts: 3,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ View Post

I have not read every post so I don't know what has or has not been said about the stress thing but "stress" is another red herring. Stress might cause some people to fail in certain endeavors, I'm sure some people fail the bar test because of stress, yet amazingly, many people sill manage to pass and become attorney's. Since audiophiles ALWAYS fail the cable comparison test, I think we can logically conclude that stress is not the primary causative factor.


Correct!

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
NIN74 is offline  
post #120 of 384 Old 11-21-2007, 09:29 AM
Advanced Member
 
jj_0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the rain
Posts: 752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter M View Post

A personal quest for the truth has to be admired.

Hear, hear!

James D. (jj) Johnston
jj_0001 is offline  
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off