The new C3X1080 review. - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

When I first got my RS1 I was shocked how bad SD looked on it, including Dark City. I was coming from CRT (and only had an 8' wide screen at the time) but all off a sudden only HD looked good to me. Not so much because of the extra resolution but because the RS1 looked very digital to me (human skin would never look natural to me in SD). I tried various scaling solutions but only pristine titles were tolerable. I just tried a few titles last night (with the Sim2) and was pleasantly surprised. Like Art, I wouldn't use Dark City as a demo, but overall SD images looked a lot more natural - had more depth etc. All this to say that going from an RS1 to a Sim2 for SD is a marked upgrade imo. It's hard to say how a specific title like Dark City would compare between the RS1 and the SIM2 (frankly I don't find it looks good on either thus I'm probably not a good judge).

A dark SD title that I use periodically to test sub/surrounds is Blade 2. When I went from CRT to the RS1 this title looked very disapointing to me. Last night I noticed it looked pretty darn good - I was shocked actually.

I'm getting long winded here, but what I'm trying to say is that while I wouldn't go so far to say that the Sim2 is better than the RS1 on blacks, it's not a world apart either. Yes, the RS1's on/off is better, but if you haven't seen what strong ansi contrast does to bring out detail and depth in a picture, you should.

As for size of screen, mine is 11' wide (2.35:1) so we're not worlds apart either. On top of that, I have a HP (hardly necessary for the C3X1080 and arguably not ideal), but with my RS1 I had to change bulbs after a few hundred hours; it's nice to know I have some room to spare with the C3X1080. It will make a difference on your size screen. You would see MUCH more detail and depth. This is a VERY revealing projector imo.

I have a Prismasonic lens and it's not wide enough for the C3X1080 (because the Sim2's lens is recessed) and I now need to upgrade it. I was stressed about doing this because the Prismasonic offers a pass-through mode which other lenses do not - and I didn't want to have to pay thousands of dollars simply to have a mechanism to move the lens out of the light path for 16x9 material, but I will say that having experimented with the projector's internal scaler, I can compress the image to produce a 16x9 image (with the anamorphic lens in place) without much degredation to the image (i.e. very acceptable).

Yes, the projector has 3 zoom memories per input. I have made 2.35, 1.78and 1.85 ratios.

Hope this helps.

I was also coming from CRT (G70) when I got an RS1. I found out that you absolutely could not changed the factory settings without heavy penalties. This projector cannot be tweaked without pelnalties, making the picture terrible. This projector has actually to be de-ISF to look alright. I found out also that with the RS1 I prefered the picture of Bluray to HDVD. And I love SD on the RS1. It is better than CRT with good source material. With good material I don't care about Bluray and HDVD anymore. Dark City looks better on the RS1 (at factory settings) than on the G70. I believe that most people poohpoohing the RS1 have changed the factory settings.
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post #542 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 01:28 PM
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I have just spoken to an ISF tech that setup a C3X1080 and he stated that in his opinion it is the best Digital projector he has ever seen. High praise indeed. (CM to refrain yourself from quoting this )


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

I will still measure units...........but I simply am not posting them anymore.

That is a shame Jason. It is your perogative but I hope that you reconsider and do as HoustonHoyaFan has mentioned you have done in the past-

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If the unit is defective, throw the review out and publish one on a in-spec unit. You had done that in the past IIRC with a SIM2 3000 where you also measured a low lumen number and then revised the review. Everyone understood. Publish the info and let people individually deceide the importance of that particular parameter. That was what was great about the AVS community.

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post #543 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

I have just spoken to an ISF tech that setup a C3X1080 and he stated that in his opinion it is the best Digital projector he has ever seen. High praise indeed. (CM to refrain yourself from quoting this )

No problem, I'd place it second of those i've seen anyway

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post #544 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 01:59 PM
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Couldn't help yourself
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post #545 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

I have just spoken to an ISF tech that setup a C3X1080 and he stated that in his opinion it is the best Digital projector he has ever seen.

I second that opinion. There may be some better projectors but they are either quite a bit more expensive (HT5000) or in the outer stratosphere (cinema grade 3-chip).
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post #546 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Free View Post

BTW, I am very neutral in my reporting. I have no stake in this, so I report what I see, and I am not seeing this projector "wipe the floor" with the RS1. I see that it provides a very satisfying image, and a bit more depth in bright scenes than the RS1 (I have a very good RS1 btw). The fades to black, and black bars are superior on the RS1, but not by a huge amount.

Phil,

I find the C3X 1080 much better than the RS1 (though I don't know if I would say it "wipes the floor with it" ). Any change in your feelings now that you've had a little more time with the unit?
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post #547 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

Couldn't help yourself

oops

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post #548 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ View Post

Phil,

I find the C3X 1080 much better than the RS1 (though I don't know if I would say it "wipes the floor with it" ). Any change in your feelings now that you've had a little more time with the unit?

First of all, I think I have a very good RS1. I really don't see the bright corners that much, and it throws a really nice image.

I need to spend more time with the 1080, and hope to this weekend, but I am finding it very satisfying. It is almost as good as the RS1 in black level, and has the extra depth in the bright scenes. The image is overall more consistent. The colors are very rich, while still being accurate.

I had hoped that it would meet the spec's that Sim2 advertised, and it would be more versatile, especially for larger screens if it had, but fortunately I waited, and didn't order a new screen, and it is working fine with the one I have.

I think a doubling of the CR, and light output, and we are pretty close to the holy grail. Maybe they will achieve this with an upgrade to the 5000, and the DC4 chip.

Phil
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post #549 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 03:05 PM
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**** it, I've ordered the new screen anyway. There is something wrong if this projector can't light up a 59" x 139" studiotek... I'm also going to be using a 1.45 throw (TI lens) and ISCO 3.
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post #550 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

**** it, I've ordered the new screen anyway. There is something wrong if this projector can't light up a 59" x 139" studiotek... I'm also going to be using a 1.45 throw (TI lens) and ISCO 3.


Hmm.... I am thinking HT5000 for my 70" X 168" scope . ISCO 3 / microperf / 1.3 gain Ultra Matte.... I wish I could get a way with a C3X1080 but apparently not..

Remember, you'll likely get a steep lumens drop at a couple hundred hours.

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post #551 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Hmm.... I am thinking HT5000 for my 70" X 168" scope . ISCO 3 / microperf / 1.3 gain Ultra Matte.... I wish I could get a way with a C3X1080 but apparently not..

Remember, you'll likely get a steep lumens drop at a couple hundred hours.

I believe that you are making the right move.

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post #552 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 03:30 PM
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Jeff is going through the traditional "I wish I could get away with a C3X 1080" nonsense all the while secretly lusting and longing for the top of the line HT5000 . And the only one that doesn't know that he's already decided to get a 5000 is him . The C3X 1080 would be like a half hard-on. Jeff needs the HT5000 viagra.
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post #553 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 04:05 PM
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Those who place so much weight on measured numbers in the quest for objectivity may, in fact, be less objective than those who have had the opportunity to subjectively evaluate the images rendered by a diversity of projectors over many years. I wince everytime I read a post from someone who has never experienced a given projector for any length of time -- if at all -- declare that they are rethinking their buying decision based on posted measurements -- measurements which may or may not be accurate, let alone properly interpreted.
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post #554 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Those who place so much weight on measured numbers in the quest for objectivity may, in fact, be less objective than those who have had the opportunity to subjectively evaluate the images rendered by a diversity of projectors over many years. I wince everytime I read a post from someone who has never experienced a given projector for any length of time -- if at all -- declare that they are rethinking their buying decision based on posted measurements -- measurements which may or may not be accurate, let alone properly interpreted.

True but it has merit as a starting point.It gives one something to latch onto. I would never recommend buying without seeing a projector using familiar software but knowing lumens,on/off ANSI etc gives one some ideas that can be a piece of the puzzle during demos.

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post #555 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Those who place so much weight on measured numbers in the quest for objectivity may, in fact, be less objective than those who have had the opportunity to subjectively evaluate the images rendered by a diversity of projectors over many years. I wince everytime I read a post from someone who has never experienced a given projector for any length of time -- if at all -- declare that they are rethinking their buying decision based on posted measurements -- measurements which may or may not be accurate, let alone properly interpreted.

I see your point and think it contains some validity but also think you are muddying the waters by grouping a whole bunch of different issues together. It makes perfect sense for someone to make decisions based on *meaningful* measurements. People don't have the luxury of just trying a 30K projector for "a given length of time". Whether the measurements someone is basing decisions on are accurate or inaccurate, or due to a bad unit, is an entirely different ball of wax.
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post #556 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

... I wince everytime I read a post from someone who has never experienced a given projector for any length of time -- if at all -- declare that they are rethinking their buying decision based on posted measurements -- measurements which may or may not be accurate, let alone properly interpreted.

If they were making their decision based on requiring a certain light output for a required screen size, then not rethinking their decision makes me wince!

If pj maker were required to comply with something similar to the old FTC RMS power amplifer spec than one set of problems would be solved. Instead of saying it was a 2,000 lumen 10,000:1 CR pj, they should be required to say minimum of 2,000 lumens from 10% to 100% vdeo with a dE < 3 and 10,000:1 on/off CR. The RMS spec in the '70s put a stop to the 300 watt amps which turned out to 50 watts from 20, to 20,000 with THD 1%.
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post #557 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ View Post

Jeff is going through the traditional "I wish I could get away with a C3X 1080" nonsense all the while secretly lusting and longing for the top of the line HT5000 . And the only one that doesn't know that he's already decided to get a 5000 is him . The C3X 1080 would be like a half hard-on. Jeff needs the HT5000 viagra.

I'm waiting for Art to hit the "I wish I could continue to live with DC3" when the HT5K DC4 hits. DC3 works for me
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post #558 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 05:02 PM
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I just installed my C3X1080, which replaced a C3X-E. Things are great except for one really odd thing. I have a Series 3 Tivo connected to a Denon 4306 receiver via HDMI, which is then connected to the C3X1080 via HDMI. If I ask the Tivo to upconvert SD content (even just to 480p), then everything is fine. But if I ask the Tivo to send content in its "native" form (i.e. 480i30 for SD content), then the picture that the C3X1080 projects looks horrible -- everything is magenta!

This worked fine with my C3X-E.

Is anyone else experiencing anything like this?

Steve
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post #559 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 05:02 PM
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Congrats Free! Sounds like things looking up with your C3X1080. I cant wait til Ted gets his Ferrari Red one so I can see what all the noise is about.
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post #560 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfisher64 View Post

I just installed my C3X1080, which replaced a C3X-E. Things are great except for one really odd thing. I have a Series 3 Tivo connected to a Denon 4306 receiver via HDMI, which is then connected to the C3X1080 via HDMI. If I ask the Tivo to upconvert SD content (even just to 480p), then everything is fine. But if I ask the Tivo to send content in its "native" form (i.e. 480i30 for SD content), then the picture that the C3X1080 projects looks horrible -- everything is magenta!

This worked fine with my C3X-E.

Is anyone else experiencing anything like this?

Steve

You should really connect to the PJ direct if you wish for the best PQ. The vast majority of Sim2 owners do this, and its highly recommended by most of the experienced users and reviewers.

The on board VP is outstanding and any other processing can degrade it including C2s etc.

Try running direct to see if that cures this issue.

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post #561 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Hmm.... I am thinking HT5000 for my 70" X 168" scope . ISCO 3 / microperf / 1.3 gain Ultra Matte.... I wish I could get a way with a C3X1080 but apparently not..

Remember, you'll likely get a steep lumens drop at a couple hundred hours.

It will need to be the HT5000.

The 1080 would yield 15fL new (using 1.17 gain for the perf)

The HT5000, which we all know will deliver 1800-2000 calibrated lumens, would yield 27fL new, this can obviously be dimmed and cranked up later.

Just for information, the 2 lamp version will be along soon, the hit being touted as $10k.

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post #562 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfisher64 View Post

I just installed my C3X1080, which replaced a C3X-E. Things are great except for one really odd thing. I have a Series 3 Tivo connected to a Denon 4306 receiver via HDMI, which is then connected to the C3X1080 via HDMI. If I ask the Tivo to upconvert SD content (even just to 480p), then everything is fine. But if I ask the Tivo to send content in its "native" form (i.e. 480i30 for SD content), then the picture that the C3X1080 projects looks horrible -- everything is magenta!

This worked fine with my C3X-E.

Is anyone else experiencing anything like this?

Yes, try setting everything on the Tivo to output at 720p and/or 1080i and see if that solves the problem and please report back. I had some problems with Native on a DirecTV box but since I could care less about SD material did not wast too much time on it - changing it to a higher resolution solved the issue.
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post #563 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

You should really connect to the PJ direct if you wish for the best PQ. The vast majority of Sim2 owners do this, and its highly recommended by most of the experienced users and reviewers.

The on board VP is outstanding and any other processing can degrade it including C2s etc.

Try running direct to see if that cures this issue.

The unit only has two HDMI inputs. For many users it's very easy to exceed that number and going direct as not an option - an HDMI switcher is going to be necessary. Due to some of the problems that exist with HDMI there is always the *possibility* that may introduce some problems, but otherwise should in no way affect the image detrimentally, and should do nothing more than route the HDMI signal while letting the PJ do all the processing.
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post #564 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ View Post

The unit only has two HDMI inputs. For many users it's very easy to exceed that number and going direct as not an option - an HDMI switcher is going to be necessary. Due to some of the problems that exist with HDMI there is always the *possibility* that may introduce some problems, but otherwise should in no way affect the image detrimentally, and should do nothing more than route the HDMI signal while letting the PJ do all the processing.

True. Direct is always the preferred method if possible, and obviously would involve a switching unit with more than 2 HDMI sources. Allowing these particular PJs to process almost always results in a cleaner picture. A HOST version is due in the New year that would help those with more sources and install issues. Hit is said to be $3k-$4k extra. THE HT5000 and HT3000e will also be available in HOST versions, the HT3000 HOST being a DC4 machine. Hope thats of interest.

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post #565 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ View Post

Yes, try setting everything on the Tivo to output at 720p and/or 1080i and see if that solves the problem and please report back. I had some problems with Native on a DirecTV box but since I could care less about SD material did not wast too much time on it - changing it to a higher resolution solved the issue.

Yes, if the Tivo upconverts to 480p, 720p, or 1080i, then everything is fine. 480i is unwatchable, and I was concerned that maybe there is a problem with the projector, especially since this worked fine with the C3X-E.

I will try connecting it direct and see if that works.
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post #566 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 05:50 PM
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Steve please give me your impression of the 1080 compared to the C3Xe. Im currently currently a happy C3Xe owner, thanks!
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post #567 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfisher64 View Post

Yes, if the Tivo upconverts to 480p, 720p, or 1080i, then everything is fine. 480i is unwatchable, and I was concerned that maybe there is a problem with the projector, especially since this worked fine with the C3X-E.

I will try connecting it direct and see if that works.

I just reread your first post, I missed that you already had found the same "fix".
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post #568 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 06:02 PM
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The other problem I have found with going direct, is that the brightness adjustment on this projector is too coarse. There are ten steps of adjustment on my Crystallio, in between each single step in the C3X's brightness adjustment.

Phil
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post #569 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 07:27 PM
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I just bought the Geffen 6 x 2 HDMI switcher... I would imagine the switcher is decent and in no way can degrade the 'bits'...


Quote:
I am thinking HT5000 for my 70" X 168" scope . ISCO 3 / microperf / 1.3 gain Ultra Matte....


CM says: The 1080 would yield 15fL new (using 1.17 gain for the perf)



Well hell, then I should be more than fine with a 59" x 139" studiotek, non perf... and using 1.45 throw (T1) won't hurt either.

My guess is I will still be able to use low lamp Iris closed... Maybe after a coupple hundred hours I'll have to turn the lamp up or open the iris.

By the way... when you need more light output but want to retain as much contrast as possible, do you use the high lamp output and keep iris closed? What's the difference between High lamp Iris closed and Low lamp Iris open?

Looks like I should still have plenty of lumens...

By the way, what't the diff between ultramatte 1.3 and studiotek 1.3?
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post #570 of 877 Old 12-07-2007, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Steve please give me your impression of the 1080 compared to the C3Xe. Im currently currently a happy C3Xe owner, thanks!

I've only had the 1080 for about a day or two, and its picture is certainly terrific (except for the problem with 480i SD that I mentioned early).

On the other hand, the C3X-E was also terrific! To be honest, I didn't notice a huge difference once the C3X 1080 was callibrated (out of the box it did not look good). And when I asked my daughter, she said she loved the picture -- it looked just like the C3X-E!

I don't know how to do all the measurements (lumens, CR, ANSI) that folks here do (I wish I did), and I'm sure my memory is quite imperfect, but I think they both have a fantastic picture and I'm very happy.

I also don't have a Blu-Ray or HDVD player (I can't give up the convenience of a Kaleidescape), and so I'm not yet really taking advantrage of 1080p, let alone 1080p/24.
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