The new C3X1080 review. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 07:01 AM
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Health Nut, if I was you I would definitely send your intended measurements over to SIM2 to have them verify the actual throw ratios of their lenses and have them recommend which one would be most appropriate.

Its my feeling that the long throw lens should be better, but like CM suggests being at one end, specially the shortest end, of the extremes of the lens could also lead to more CA andcould potentially leave you without flexibility if you need just a little more/or less size.
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post #182 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

Health Nut, if I was you I would definitely send your intended measurements over to SIM2 to have them verify the actual throw ratios of their lenses and have them recommend which one would be most appropriate.

Its my feeling that the long throw lens should be better, but like CM suggests being at one end, specially the shortest end, of the extremes of the lens could also lead to more CA andcould potentially leave you without flexibility if you need just a little more/or less size.

Cat,

The throws are well known, its the fact he's right at the crossover point between the 2. The issue isn't so much CA, theres other factors specific to the C3X1080.

Ive got this covered by pm

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post #183 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 07:20 AM
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Do any of you know what version of HDMI the C3X 1080 supports?
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post #184 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

So you are saying that if I am at 1.7, I should try to see if I can get to 1.71 and maybe take a chance on the T2 lens working? Or are you saying I should mount it at 1.5 and use the T1 lens...

In case you missed my last post...PM me again and I'll get you sorted, no problem.

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post #185 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 07:55 AM
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I mentioned earlier in this thread that I received my C3X1080 yesterday and am awaiting installation assistance, but I thought I'd throw out my initial impressions of the unit, image, etc.

I do have MC - even in the center of the screen, but my understanding that no C3X1080 is going to be perfect in this respect (folded light path being the main culprit). I have a couple other issues that I won't bore you with, but the biggest surprise is that the max throw distance on my unit is 2.1, NOT 2.6 as advertised. Don't know whether that's a defect with my unit or SIM changed the specs. I spent way to much time dissembling my equipment rack (because I normally use the top of it as a projector shelf and had to move it about 16 inches to go from a 2.8 throw to a 2.6 throw) in vain.

Anyway, once I McGyver'd a makeshift projector stand and got the projector positioned correctly it was close to midnight and started to watch some material. I had a mental list of everything I wanted to check out (material I know extremely well) and started with King Kong. OMG! The depth! Blacks were VERY good (my projector history was CRT -> RS1), punch was great, it simply looked amazing. I normally watch only a minute or so of each chapter and move on, but I was mesmerized. I had to force myself not to watch the entire movie (considering the time and the amount of material I wanted to get through before going to bed).

Next up was Unforgiven. The beginning of this film has a lot of candlelit scenes that was too challenging for my CRT and ery much improved upon with my RS1. With the C3X it was like being there. Awesome. Almost watched the whole friggin' movie... took some willpower to move on.

I then watched a bit of Black Snake Moan. Holy @#@#! Again, incredible depth, punch and clarity. I am simply not a good enough writer to describe how the dramatic increase in image quality pulls you into the movie.

I also watched a bit of Viva Las Vegas because with the RS1 I had noticed some scenes with major color saturation and I wanted to compare. Elvis' neon pink sweater was very similar (so I guess it's in the source). Anyway, the film looked amazing - I was IN Vegas!

That's as far as I got in 3 hours... I should have made it through a LOT more than that, but I kept forgetting to hit chapter skip and never wanted to get up to change the disc...

I can honestly say these were the best images I have ever seen and I can't wait to check out more material. Here's the kicker (and this may discredit me with some of you): I have a 132" 2.35:1 HIGH POWER screen. I expected to have to wear sunglasses, I had ND2 and ND4 filters on hand. I simply lowered the lamp power to 200 watts from the get-go and never needed them. Was it bright.. hell YES, but somehow it was acceptable. I measured over 700 lumens (again, low lamp so not indicative of the projector's full light output) and it was over 50 foot lamberts. Ideally I like it in the 20's so I'm VERY surprised. What I was watching last night was probably less (with an anamorphic lens in place) so I'll have to re-measure.

I also closed the Iris at one point. Compared to open iris it seemed, well, dimmer, but I resisted the urge to open it back up again and spent 50% of my time last night with it closed. The manual infers that it's better open, so I'll play around with that some more.

OK, I'll shut up now. :-)
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post #186 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I received my C3X1080 yesterday and am awaiting installation assistance, but I thought I'd throw out my initial impressions of the unit, image, etc.

I do have MC - even in the center of the screen, but my understanding that no C3X1080 is going to be perfect in this respect (folded light path being the main culprit). I have a couple other issues that I won't bore you with, but the biggest surprise is that the max throw distance on my unit is 2.1, NOT 2.6 as advertised. Don't know whether that's a defect with my unit or SIM changed the specs. I spent way to much time dissembling my equipment rack (because I normally use the top of it as a projector shelf and had to move it about 16 inches to go from a 2.8 throw to a 2.6 throw) in vain.

Anyway, once I McGyver'd a makeshift projector stand and got the projector positioned correctly it was close to midnight and started to watch some material. I had a mental list of everything I wanted to check out (material I know extremely well) and started with King Kong. OMG! The depth! Blacks were VERY good (my projector history was CRT -> RS1), punch was great, it simply looked amazing. I normally watch only a minute or so of each chapter and move on, but I was mesmerized. I had to force myself not to watch the entire movie (considering the time and the amount of material I wanted to get through before going to bed).

Next up was Unforgiven. The beginning of this film has a lot of candlelit scenes that was too challenging for my CRT and ery much improved upon with my RS1. With the C3X it was like being there. Awesome. Almost watched the whole friggin' movie... took some willpower to move on.

I then watched a bit of Black Snake Moan. Holy @#@#! Again, incredible depth, punch and clarity. I am simply not a good enough writer to describe how the dramatic increase in image quality pulls you into the movie.

I also watched a bit of Viva Las Vegas because with the RS1 I had noticed some scenes with major color saturation and I wanted to compare. Elvis' neon pink sweater was very similar (so I guess it's in the source). Anyway, the film looked amazing - I was IN Vegas!

That's as far as I got in 3 hours... I should have made it through a LOT more than that, but I kept forgetting to hit chapter skip and never wanted to get up to change the disc...

I can honestly say these were the best images I have ever seen and I can't wait to check out more material. Here's the kicker (and this may discredit me with some of you): I have a 132" 2.35:1 HIGH POWER screen. I expected to have to wear sunglasses, I had ND2 and ND4 filters on hand. I simply lowered the lamp power to 200 watts from the get-go and never needed them. Was it bright.. hell YES, but somehow it was acceptable. I measured over 700 lumens (again, low lamp so not indicative of the projector's full light output) and it was over 50 foot lamberts. Ideally I like it in the 20's so I'm VERY surprised. What I was watching last night was probably less (with an anamorphic lens in place) so I'll have to re-measure.

I also closed the Iris at one point. Compared to open iris it seemed, well, dimmer, but I resisted the urge to open it back up again and spent 50% of my time last night with it closed. The manual infers that it's better open, so I'll play around with that some more.

OK, I'll shut up now. :-)

Sounds good. PM me if you need any help with the menus etc. 700-800 lumen's is about right. Max power is giving me around 1200.

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post #187 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 08:28 AM
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CM, what is the "well known" throw on the lens? 2.6 or 2.1 or varies by unit?

It seems that Ian has had to "McGyver" his setup to accomodate the throw and apparently was able to get his Prismasonic to work once he lessenned the zoom, despite the recess.

It sounds like an amazing image, Ian. What are the effects of closing the iris? Less lumens/more CR? Sounds like a very nice image. 8) Congratulations!

Im gonna have to take a look at Kong, again, and Unforgiven now! 8)
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post #188 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 08:28 AM
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Wow. The lumen numbers keep going down. Looks like I may not have to change out my High Power screen.

Phil
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post #189 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

Wow. The lumen numbers keep going down. Looks like I may not have to change out my High Power screen.

Those are D65 numbers. 800 dimmed 1200 undimmed, those arent low.

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post #190 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfisher64 View Post

Do any of you know what version of HDMI the C3X 1080 supports?

1.3

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post #191 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Those are D65 numbers. 800 dimmed 1200 undimmed, those arent low.

Are these number with iris on or close?
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post #192 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

Ideally I like it in the 20's so I'm VERY surprised. What I was watching last night was probably less (with an anamorphic lens in place) so I'll have to re-measure.

Glad you didn't have to spring for a new one. Frequently the case design and recess will dictate a large diameter lens.

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post #193 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Glad you didn't have to spring for a new one. Frequently the case design and recess will dictate a large diameter lens.

I'm not sure I'm out of the woods just yet - I may have to go Panamorph or ISCO. While I got it positioned so that I can see the entire image (without obstruction), the sides have a vertical strip of color artifacting - like the edge of the prism is in the way. I'll play with it some more soon, but I was happy enough to get the level of performance that I did - if only temporary - so I could enjoy the projector!

And enjoy I did.
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post #194 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

what light output can it do at say 8000K and a good contrast on off (say 5000:1) ?
remember guys, dlp is king of ansi contrast, reaching sometimes up to 800:1
and that is very very important for daylight scenes
and with a scope format screen, I don't miss the 20000:1 of some machines

Well over the 1200 at D65 im getting, didn't measure uncalibrated lumens but it was easily noticeable. I don't want to guess but around 1500. I've spoke to Jason and he should have his numbers up soon.

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post #195 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

CM, what is the "well known" throw on the lens? 2.6 or 2.1 or varies by unit?

It seems that Ian has had to "McGyver" his setup to accomodate the throw and apparently was able to get his Prismasonic to work once he lessenned the zoom, despite the recess.

It sounds like an amazing image, Ian. What are the effects of closing the iris? Less lumens/more CR? Sounds like a very nice image. 8) Congratulations!

Im gonna have to take a look at Kong, again, and Unforgiven now! 8)


The manual states that leaving the iris open allows the full performance of the projector (color performance etc), but closing it increases contrast ratio. I'll play with it some more and let you know what I see.
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post #196 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post

I'm not sure I'm out of the woods just yet - I may have to go Panamorph or ISCO. While I got it positioned so that I can see the entire image (without obstruction), the sides have a vertical strip of color artifacting - like the edge of the prism is in the way. I'll play with it some more soon, but I was happy enough to get the level of performance that I did - if only temporary - so I could enjoy the projector!

And enjoy I did.

I thought that would be the case. I'll sort your AR stuff now.

Welcome to the club.

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post #197 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Those are D65 numbers. 800 dimmed 1200 undimmed, those arent low.

Didn't say they were low, but they are a lot lower than the original reports. Doesn't matter to me, I just don't have to spring for a new screen.

Phil
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post #198 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

Didn't say they were low, but they are a lot lower than the original reports. Doesn't matter to me, I just don't have to spring for a new screen.

Those were uncalibrated. The first proper calibrated figure, which i porovided myself, was 1300.

It is, however, less than the C3X. A C3Xe can give 1500.

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post #199 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 09:27 AM
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Getting a bit snowed under atm as Saturday is a busy day for me. I'll try to keep up with the PMs

Im also tied up setting up a PJ demo for a friend who wants to move up from an RS1. I called in some favors and we will show the RS1, VW200, 15s1, HT380 or HT3000e and the C3X1080, all back to back then the HT5000 seperately... I hope it all works out. Will report back. Already seen some surprises.

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post #200 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Those were uncalibrated. The first proper calibrated figure, which i porovided myself, was 1300.

It is, however, less than the C3X. A C3Xe can give 1500.

I don't think the C3Xe has an iris, does it? I suppose on the new proj. even with the iris open, it does restrict light a bit to get higher CR.

Phil
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post #201 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

I don't think the C3Xe has an iris, does it? I suppose on the new proj. even with the iris open, it does restrict light a bit to get higher CR.

The first set of user figures (which were higher than the HT5000) were as a result of some idiot working from fL who then used the wrong gain figure......oooops

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post #202 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 10:50 AM
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From Ian_Currie>
max throw distance on my unit is 2.1, NOT 2.6 as advertised

That is upsetting. The current throw distance spec at the Sim2 site is 1.75-2.48. My setup is 2.1+ and it can't be changed.

As far as pixel misconvergence is concerned on a projector of this caliber if it's more than 1/2 it's going back. It really should be 1/4 pixel for a 32K machine.

I hope we get some realistic specs on what we can expect.
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post #203 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 10:54 AM
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Ummmm.... so Sim2 updated their specs on the T2 lens to 1.75-2.48 but you are saying You are only achieving 2.1?? that is not even close to 2.48.... Something doesn't seem right, they wouldn't be off that much...

Can anyone with a T2 lens measure the other end and see if they are getting 1.65, 1.7, or 1.75.... Would you mind checking the other end, it would be greatly appreciated...

Quote:


The manual states that leaving the iris open allows the full performance of the projector (color performance etc), but closing it increases contrast ratio. I'll play with it some more and let you know what I see.

If I'm using only a 10' wide scope screen and I have to use a 1.6 throw since I'm using the T1 lens, I will have to use low lamp and nearest to closed setting on the iris... Will the projector be calibrated fairly close to D65 for such a setting, or is the calibration independent of which mode/iris/lamp setting is chosen?
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post #204 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Ummmm.... so Sim2 updated their specs on the T2 lens to 1.75-2.48 but you are saying You are only achieving 2.1?? that is not even close to 2.48.... Something doesn't seem right, they wouldn't be off that much...

Can anyone with a T2 lens measure the other end and see if they are getting 1.65, 1.7, or 1.75.... Would you mind checking the other end, it would be greatly appreciated...



If I'm using only a 10' wide scope screen and I have to use a 1.6 throw since I'm using the T1 lens, I will have to use low lamp and nearest to closed setting on the iris... Will the projector be calibrated fairly close to D65 for such a setting, or is the calibration independent of which mode/iris/lamp setting is chosen?

You can set D65 in any configuration. Even without a cal, dialing in to .313 and .329 will be very close.

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post #205 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 11:17 AM
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I have read the recent Audioholics column, which essentially states that 3DLP front projectors (which typically go for >30K) are a total ripoff, since that there's no factual reasons why they should be so expensive. The columnist went on to say that 3LCD (or 3LcOS, or 3DILA) front projectors with comparable feature sets typically cost one-tenth of their 3DLP brethrens, their only drawback being a more visible screen-door effect (but he claimed that also that one is rapidly becoming a non-issue).

Having long debated with myself whether I should invest in a 3DLP, I read all of this with much interest. Personally, I am entirely neutral to the issue of 3DLP vs 3LCD. What is the sentiment out there?

PS: I am secretly hoping to initiate a brawl...

PPS: I had originally posted this in the wrong sub-forum. This thread is where I wanted to post!
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post #206 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Ummmm.... so Sim2 updated their specs on the T2 lens to 1.75-2.48 but you are saying You are only achieving 2.1?? that is not even close to 2.48.... Something doesn't seem right, they wouldn't be off that much...

Can anyone with a T2 lens measure the other end and see if they are getting 1.65, 1.7, or 1.75.... Would you mind checking the other end, it would be greatly appreciated...

When I ordered, the max throw of the T2 was 2.6; I wasn't aware of them changing the spec! Even still, I'm not getting 2.4. Keep in mind that it could just be my unit...

I'd also be very interested in what others are getting for min and max throw using the T2.
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post #207 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aag View Post

I have read the recent Audioholics column, which essentially states that 3DLP front projectors (which typically go for >30K) are a total ripoff, since that there's no factual reasons why they should be so expensive. The columnist went on to say that 3LCD (or 3LcOS, or 3DILA) front projectors with comparable feature sets typically cost one-tenth of their 3DLP brethrens, their only drawback being a more visible screen-door effect (but he claimed that also that one is rapidly becoming a non-issue).

Having long debated with myself whether I should invest in a 3DLP, I read all of this with much interest. Personally, I am entirely neutral to the issue of 3DLP vs 3LCD. What is the sentiment out there?

PS: I am secretly hoping to initiate a brawl...

PPS: I had originally posted this in the wrong sub-forum. This thread is where I wanted to post!

I repeat the answer i gave you on that forum...............I read that too. Probably the least informed statement ever. 3chip DLPs cost so much due to the optical components especially the prism used to combine the light. At that stage it makes no sense but to equip it well in every other area otherwise you would end up with a sub par PJ that still msrp'd for $20K. As an example, the light engine alone of an HT5000 (at cost) will buy you 4 RS1s

The subject has been covered in great detail many times in the $20k forum.

If its your intention, as you state,to cause a brawl, then that probably explains why you dont own a 3chip DLP

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post #208 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 12:25 PM
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Let's face it - ultimately none of us care about one technology over another for the sake of it. It's because we prefer the advantages of one over another.
If there was a 3-chip LCD at 30k which outperformed the Sim2 in pure PQ, flexibility, light output, etc and had no serious disadvantages like dust blobs, etc. Then we'd all be raving about it (or at least those who could afford it would).

However, it just doesn't exist. Even comparing something like the budget JVC HD1 and the Sim2 D80e is fraught with difficulty - even in pure PQ terms they each have their strengths and weaknesses.

To say one tech is overpriced compared to another is simply missing the point. It's performance per dollar that we care about and all techs seem to be similar in this regard. It's too competetive a market for them not to be.

Sim2's are often regarded as carrying a price premium, however looking at their current range, it's hard to see where.

Just my 2c
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post #209 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

As an example, the light engine alone of an HT5000 (at cost) will buy you 4 RS1s

This may be a valid point - but I am still left wondering (1) why collimating light across three mirrors is so much more costly than collimating it through three LCDs, and (2) whether - and, if so, why - mirrors are optophysically superior to LCD panels.

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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

makes no sense but to equip it well in every other area...

Any additional quality features are certainly a strong argument in favor of the C3X1080, but it would appear to me that they are irrelevant to the question of DLP vs other technologies.

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Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

If its your intention, as you state,to cause a brawl, then that probably explains why you dont own a 3chip DLP

The actual reason is more trivial than that. I have a separate projection cabinet that hosts all the AV gear. Currently I have an old VW12HT equipped with a long-throw lens. It does the job alright, but it is dim. I haven't yet been able to identify a sufficiently bright high-end projector that wouldnt cause a thermal problem. The C3X's side-exhaust design is interesting and may actually solve that aspect for m
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post #210 of 877 Old 12-01-2007, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aag View Post

This may be a valid point - but I am still left wondering (1) why collimating light across three mirrors is so much more costly than collimating it through three LCDs, and (2) whether - and, if so, why - mirrors are optophysically superior to LCD panels.



Any additional quality features are certainly a strong argument in favor of the C3X1080, but it would appear to me that they are irrelevant to the question of DLP vs other technologies.



The actual reason is more trivial than that. I have a separate projection cabinet that hosts all the AV gear. Currently I have an old VW12HT equipped with a long-throw lens. It does the job alright, but it is dim. I haven't yet been able to identify a sufficiently bright high-end projector that wouldnt cause a thermal problem. The C3X's side-exhaust design is interesting and may actually solve that aspect for m

I'll answer briefly as this is OT

1. Its the cost of the glass and the prism, and that wont change anytime soon. Unlike electronics, lenses havent tumbled in price. The optics involved are far more complex than LCD.

2. As I said, it makes no sense to equip a 3dlp light path with cheap components and software. It would still be an expensive machine. It cant be done cheaply.

Can we get this thread back on track as its a C3X1080 specific thread and people are looking for some help.

If you want more detailed answers, start a new thread on here or do a forum search, Ill be happy to help.

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