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post #91 of 220 Old 01-19-2008, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

Well Steve, I guess you will have to come visit me to find that out

BTW we are having a BAAS meeting today at my house and I will be highlighting Vladimir Lamm's new ML 3 Reference mono amps. At $139K/pair I am little nervous about a lightening storm here today which could fry these amps but as I told you Steve in my 30 years of living here in California I have never been in a lightening storm. I would say however that I have ridden out countless earthquakes and my home is well bolted down. Turning up these Gotham subs however can produce some very serious sub sonic rumble so I don't want to loosen anything from the foundation of my house. Too bad you can't be here today Steve as there are some serious AVS members attending
Dizzman
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Ron Party
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and we will be introducing our newest BAAS member...Health Nut who will be wearing an "I love lawyers who are anal" button

can I see a picture of that?????

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post #92 of 220 Old 01-19-2008, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

can I see a picture of that?????

OK
LL

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Art's and my buddy Steve Bruzonsky! And Oneobgyn if I ever make it to NorCal!
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post #93 of 220 Old 01-19-2008, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Mark,that's the same photo you took of our Italian waitress last March when I took you to that restaurant. You're not gonna fool me. I'd know those knickers (MS the i, should be o) anywhere.

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post #94 of 220 Old 01-19-2008, 09:48 PM
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hahahaha@@@@@

mark

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Art's and my buddy Steve Bruzonsky! And Oneobgyn if I ever make it to NorCal!
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post #95 of 220 Old 01-20-2008, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Unfortunately unplugging doesn't work very well if you're at work when a surge hits.

And most surges are not direct hits. Chi Gai, you tips on whole house surge protection are great.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #96 of 220 Old 01-21-2008, 06:29 PM
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Wouldn't having a large battery collection to supply power to the home provide more consistent and predictable power? I know that isn't necessarily feasible, but the basic premise of delivering lower quality power to the battery source and allowing balance to occur across grids as demands change in different areas. This isn't really related to surge protectors (I guess it is indirectly if you can supply constant, clean power at the home location).
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post #97 of 220 Old 01-21-2008, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teamrivers View Post

Wouldn't having a large battery collection to supply power to the home provide more consistent and predictable power? I know that isn't necessarily feasible, but the basic premise of delivering lower quality power to the battery source and allowing balance to occur across grids as demands change in different areas. This isn't really related to surge protectors (I guess it is indirectly if you can supply constant, clean power at the home location).

If ya wanna manufacture a nice clean battery powered UPS sinewave to feed my dedicated home theater panel which provides power to my PS Audio Premier for front end non amp audio gear, APC S15 UPS providing power to my upcoming Sim2 C3X 1080 and Lumagen Radiance, and all the dedicated circuits providing power to five Enterprise monoblocks and three Aerial subs, please be my guest. I would luv it - at a cheap cost, of course. How soon can you deliver??? I am first in line. Bulldogger's next. Who wants to be next, next and next???

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post #98 of 220 Old 01-21-2008, 07:54 PM
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This device already exists, it's a power regeneration system. From what I've read here, it's also about $10-20K.

Hey, good, fast and cheap, which two do you want?

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post #99 of 220 Old 01-22-2008, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

If ya wanna manufacture a nice clean battery powered UPS sinewave to feed my dedicated home theater panel which provides power to my PS Audio Premier for front end non amp audio gear, APC S15 UPS providing power to my upcoming Sim2 C3X 1080 and Lumagen Radiance, and all the dedicated circuits providing power to five Enterprise monoblocks and three Aerial subs, please be my guest. I would luv it - at a cheap cost, of course. How soon can you deliver??? I am first in line. Bulldogger's next. Who wants to be next, next and next???

I'd leave that up to the engineers and marketeers....
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post #100 of 220 Old 01-22-2008, 05:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

This device already exists, it's a power regeneration system. From what I've read here, it's also about $10-20K.

Hey, good, fast and cheap, which two do you want?

OK Curt please give us the info. Don't leave us standing in awe waiting for the curtain to open???

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post #101 of 220 Old 01-23-2008, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

OK Curt please give us the info. Don't leave us standing in awe waiting for the curtain to open???

Sounds like we're heading in the right direction for solving the problem. I'll have to research in that direction...
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post #102 of 220 Old 01-24-2008, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Curt isn't responding to the challenge??? Lotsa hot air!!!@@@???

Anyway, here's photos of the Innovative Technology whole house surge protections being installed in a few minutes, the larger one on my 400 amp line, the smaller one on my home theater power panel.
LL
LL
LL

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post #103 of 220 Old 01-24-2008, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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If you have expensive gear and don't have appropriate whole house surge suppressors shame on you. AV Doogie referred me to Innovative Technology/Eaton and they are a winner. I web searched and web searched an I couldn't find any sites other than Eaton's which really streams full of power quality producs and solid information (way beyond my understanding).

For anyone interested, here's the website. Go down on the right side and click on your state for your distributor:

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...TVSS/index.htm

Now it may be that some like The Bland or Art may have whole house surge suppression installed by their custom installers and not even know it. But I would triple check this, and then check the brand to see if its any good. Minimal UL rating means it survives minimum standards but not that it will necessarily last very long.


http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...TVSS/index.htm

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post #104 of 220 Old 01-24-2008, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Turns out my 400 amp service is two 200 amp lines coming in. We can't get at a 400 amp line. So we gotta put one of the PTE160s on each of the 200 amp lines coming in.
Which essentially means that I've got a PTE160 on each of the 200 amp panel boxes and a PTE048 on the home theater panel box (the latter is off a 100 amp isolated transformer in the east 200 amp panel box).

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post #105 of 220 Old 01-30-2008, 07:45 AM
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Compared this product from Eaton: Applying a Cutler-Hammer surge suppression device to your service entrance (Stage 1) will reduce a voltage surge to an acceptable level for appliances and surge strips.
Service Entrance (Stage 1) Products

*** Best Protection ***

The CH Surge Panel is our type CH Loadcenter with a fully integrated whole-home surge protector. The patented surge design provides 75ka per phase, whole-home surge protection.
Clipper Home Surge Protector (CHSP) - can be retrofitted to any manufactures loadcenter.


vs. this product suggested to Steve: PTE160 and PTE048

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Art's and my buddy Steve Bruzonsky! And Oneobgyn if I ever make it to NorCal!
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post #106 of 220 Old 01-30-2008, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mburnstein View Post

Compared this product from Eaton: Applying a Cutler-Hammer surge suppression device to your service entrance (Stage 1) will reduce a voltage surge to an acceptable level for appliances and surge strips.
Service Entrance (Stage 1) Products

*** Best Protection ***

The CH Surge Panel is our type CH Loadcenter with a fully integrated whole-home surge protector. The patented surge design provides 75ka per phase, whole-home surge protection.
Clipper Home Surge Protector (CHSP) - can be retrofitted to any manufactures loadcenter.


vs. this product suggested to Steve: PTE160 and PTE048


Cutler Hammer is a division of Eaton Corp.

FWIW, Eaton bought the IT product line a few years back because they were looking for a 'top of the line' suppression company to compliment their product line.

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post #107 of 220 Old 01-30-2008, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Doogie View Post

Cutler Hammer is a division of Eaton Corp.

FWIW, Eaton bought the IT product line a few years back because they were looking for a 'top of the line' suppression company to compliment their product line.


Yea - I saw that on Eaton's website. They own lotsa companies in the power quality realm.

Mark, if you give a call to your Chicago distributor for power quality stuff like both Innovative Technology and Cutler Hammer, you can ask him your questions and he can explain what he recommends for you and why.

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post #108 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mburnstein View Post

Compared this product from Eaton: Applying a Cutler-Hammer surge suppression device to your service entrance (Stage 1) will reduce a voltage surge to an acceptable level for appliances and surge strips.
Service Entrance (Stage 1) Products

*** Best Protection ***

The CH Surge Panel is our type CH Loadcenter with a fully integrated whole-home surge protector. The patented surge design provides 75ka per phase, whole-home surge protection.
Clipper Home Surge Protector (CHSP) - can be retrofitted to any manufactures loadcenter.

vs. this product suggested to Steve: PTE160 and PTE048

I have the Cutler-Hammer CHSP Ultra. Two of them, one for each 200 Amp panel. 8,000 sq. ft. house

http://www.shop.budgetgenerator.net/...1&productId=29

I searched around a few years ago and found that they provide the best bang for the buck. Perhaps Steve's are overkill? More for industrial use than residential?
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post #109 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 07:02 AM
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Another thing to keep in mind, now that I've had these whole house surge protectors for a few years is that you must also protect the back door. By that I mean if you have a invisible fence for dogs and/or a lawn sprinkler system, you must also have a surge protector in the garage outlet.

We have 3 1/2 acre yard, with the invisble dog fence covering most of the yard. In addition, our lawn sprinkler system has 22 zones with 5 heads on each zone. (I'm OCD about my lawn, lol!). Numerous buried electrical control boxes for all these heads. A few years ago we had a lightning strike in our back yard. Spike went up through either the sprinkler or the dog fence line. Fried both control boxes (dog fence and sprinkler) in the garage where they were plugged in. That's as far as it got, but now that we also have such things in the garage as a food freezer and a extra refrigerator (big family), I have put a surge protector there as well. Biggest and best powerstrip kind I could find.

Of course, in the event of a direct lightning strike, no surge protector of any kind will help you, but in case of a near-miss, it's good to have the back door protected.
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post #110 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Curt isn't responding to the challenge??? Lotsa hot air!!!@@@???
.

Sorry, missed this challenge..

Here, this is the basis of which I speak of:


http://www.purepoweraps.com/aps.htm

THe incoming AC is filtered down to DC, then is regenerated to AC again. I'm sure there's whole home solutions out there, I haven't researched it though. Whether this regenerated power is any better than good clean incoming AC from the power company is anyone's guess.

I'd like all of you installing your surge protectors to take the following challenge:

Once these protectors are installed, take the screw for the neutral wire coming into your breaker box, and loosen it. A lot. Wiggle the incoming neutral wire so that it makes and breaks contact with the breaker panel. Have all of your sensitive electronic equipment turned on, your HT, your computers, whatever. See if your surge protectors save EVERYTHING in your home, and if not, see if you can collect insurance money from these protector companies that I would assume back their product with some kind of guarantee.

This test wil simulate a real life power surge scenario. Let's see if your equipment gets protected.

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post #111 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 07:49 AM
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How does it simulate a real life power surge scenario?

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post #112 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 08:06 AM
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Simple. The two commercial installation falures that involved a power surge both involved trees coming down on a power line. THe neutral snapped, causing fluctuations on both legs of the 110 line coming in. In both cases lots of equipment in the restaurant and night club got damaged.

Loosening the neutral at the breaker box will exactly simulate loss of the neutral which the surge protectors should protect.

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post #113 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

Simple. The two commercial installation falures that involved a power surge both involved trees coming down on a power line. THe neutral snapped, causing fluctuations on both legs of the 110 line coming in. In both cases lots of equipment in the restaurant and night club got damaged.

Loosening the neutral at the breaker box will exactly simulate loss of the neutral which the surge protectors should protect.


Please locate and show me where surge suppression is supposed to protect from loss of neutral in either IEEE or UL standard testing. I have not seen this specification.

Without knowing the exact mode of failure for this restaurant equipment, and the type of surge suppression which was attached at the time, I can not provide much information as to the type of protection which should have been afforded by any surge suppression device.

Curt, A panel with a proper bonding from neutral to ground (driven ground and water connection) should be able to maintain proper voltage levels if the split loads are fairly balanced. Without a proper bond, I can see the voltage levels being imbalanced with any load imbalance. There are other circumstances to consider here.
1) You may have lost the ground connection, and therefore, any surge suppression may have become useless
2) Surge suppression devices have a MCOV rating (maximum continuous over voltage). Meaning that the suppressor will allow voltage levels to downstream equipment if they are below the MCOV rating. Typical suppression devices using MOV's will have a MCOV rating somewhere around 270-370V....if you have a voltage imbalance of 210v on one leg and 30v on the other due to imbalanced loads, you can see where equipment downstream may be damaged.
3) A restaurant probably has a three phase service where additional considerations come into play depending upon the service configureation, type of surge suppression (they are not created equal), and grounding/bonding issues.

These are just examples above.

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post #114 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 09:26 AM
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AV, I won't argue with you, you and I are almost always on the same page.

I used that example as to me it's much more of a 'real world' possibility than a large 300V+ surge as caused by lightning. At least in this neck of the woods of the Pacific Northwest.

In the cases of the lost neutral, the ground to the building was still intact. You're right of course, there's almost never a perfect balance between hot legs coming into a typical home. So if the neutral was lost in a home, I'd bet that one side of the 110 line would swing to say, 150V+, the other would drop well under 100 volts.

So to me, while other areas may vary depending on climate and quality of incoming power, it's foolish to spend a bunch of money on this surge protection when the type of surge may never occur.

I'd think that you'd then have one very ticked off customer that expected his equipment to be protected no matter what kind of surge the house gets hit with. As an installer, you'd then have to tell the customer that 'oh, no, that kind of surge won't be protected by that equipment we sold you'. etc.

Now, I do remember being at my cousin's place in Switzerland way back when. He was into electronics as well, and I remember him wanting to fire up his stereo to show me what it could do, and it was dead when he turned it on. He shrugged, said that lightning had taken his stereo out again, and had a new rectfier and fuse installed within 20 minutes and proceeded with the demo. Perhaps the MOV type of surge protector would have protected in that case.

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate here. How many end users really do their research on things like power conditioners/surge protectors to see what they really do?

In the 25+ years I've been involved in the electronics industry, I've seen a bunch of TVs fail due to lightning strikes, and the two failures due to lost neutrals. I personally use no protection in my house (insert illegitimate child joke here), run lots of a/v equipment 24/7, and have never lost anything due to a surge. When I go on vacation, I unplug all sensitive electronic equipment, and don't worry about possible damage to equipment while I'm gone.

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post #115 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 10:54 AM
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What's a lot of money to you Curt? And btw, does your local telco use any kind of protection?

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post #116 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 11:06 AM
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate here. How many end users really do their research on things like power conditioners/surge protectors to see what they really do?

With internet available to almost everyone, you can do your due diligence, however, the industry standards for surge suppression (as well as power conditioning and many other electronic devices) are still being vetted out. The few standards that we have for much of this stuff is poorly specified, misunderstood, and still abused by some of the manufacturers. Marketing of some of these products is also misleading.

Quote:


In the 25+ years I've been involved in the electronics industry, I've seen a bunch of TVs fail due to lightning strikes, and the two failures due to lost neutrals. I personally use no protection in my house (insert illegitimate child joke here), run lots of a/v equipment 24/7, and have never lost anything due to a surge. When I go on vacation, I unplug all sensitive electronic equipment, and don't worry about possible damage to equipment while I'm gone.

It is that one time you have a surge in which you may wish you had some protection! Listen to your parents...protection is good


One thing I can say about all of the surge suppression I have seen tested....the vast majority of units perform their intended function. These devices are not all created equal, but at least the majority of the devices will limit the damage if not signifcantly divert the surge energy as needed.

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post #117 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

What's a lot of money to you Curt? And btw, does your local telco use any kind of protection?

The telco 's typically use protection....much of which I have seen is probably obsolete. It is for protection of their equipment and not the customers though.

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post #118 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 11:36 AM
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Chu, no idea if the local telco uses protection. I'd guess they are. My own little 6 line, 12 station telephone system has nothing on it unless it's already internal in the power supply.

But again, there you're talking about 1000's of feet of wiring that's exposed, strung from telephone pole to telephone pole. THat's subjected to lightning strikes, static electricity, etc. I'd expect them to put in some kind of protection... so I don't have to.

A couple of last points to counter AV: I'd guess that the money I'd spend on surge protection to 'properly' protect against surges would far exceed the time and material spent repairing stuff that could possibly blow up at my place over a 25 year period. But again, if I'm gone for long periods of time, I unplug my equipment.

AS AV says above, a lot of specs are misused and not properly understood by end users never mind manufacturers. That's a problem right there.

Let me throw a surge protection system that I personally would think would work, but I don't know how practical it would be. It's based on a decades old circuit called the crowbar. Funny enough, I haven't seen the circuit used in consumer electronics, but have seen it in a Carver pro amp, an entry level one, the PxM900.

What the circuit does is sense an overload/overvoltage condition, and that then triggers an SCR, a very fast silicone switch. THe SCR is placed across the AC or DC power supply lines, which are shorted out in the case of an overload condition. That then blows the power supply fuse, and it disconnects the power supply from whatever it's driving.

So off the top of my head, how about we change all main breakers in a house to fuses, as breakers are very slow acting compared to fuses. I'm just talking the 100/200 amp mains, not each 15-30 amp breaker in the panel.

Build a crowbar circuit that detects any voltage spike say over 140 volts that are long enough in duration to potentially damage equipment. THe crowbar circuit then blows the main breaker panel fuses.

Disclaimer: I haven't researched this at all, this is off the top of my head that could provide a solution that is effective, cheap, and will alert the end user that 'hey, there's a problem here'.

The Carver amp used that system in that low end amp, and it worked quite well. Mind you, the damn crowbar SCR shorted out, so I went through 5 fuses before I realized that it was the protection device itself that was bad..

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post #119 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 12:25 PM
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Curt, I don't think the crowbar approach you're envisioning would react fast enough to limit damage.

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post #120 of 220 Old 02-08-2008, 12:55 PM
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That's possible. Like I said, I've done no research, it just seemed like a possible approach.

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