AV123 really irritates me now - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Let me tell you a little story....


Back in Sept. of 2007 I purchased a complete set of AV123 spekers. Monitor 1's for front and center, Rocket dipolds for the rear, and ordered their NEW and "soon to be released' X-plosiv Subwoofer. Well fter a couple of months I received my monitor 1's followed by the Rocket dipolds. (November 11, 2007) At that time I asked when the subwoofer would be shipped. I was told later in November. The that date pssed and I asked again and I was told December. Then I never heard again from AV123.

So fast forward to early February and I again contact AV123 only to find out now that the X-plosiv subwoofer is still in development and there is no expected completion date for my order! It has now been 7 months since I bought and paid for everything. AV123 never updated me on the status, they have just left me hanging and have made it my responsibility to check on their progress.

Is waiting 7 months normal for small speaker shops like this? The communication is sub par at best. I would just get my money back but I want all the speakers to match.

They should have never taken orders for a product they didn't plan on developing. AS far as I know it's still just a sketch on a napkin.


Live and learn I guess. But AV123 certainly lost me as a good reference for their customer service.

What would you guys do at this point?


Thanks for letting me vent...

CitznFish
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post #2 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 01:57 PM
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A subwoofer is the one speaker in a home theater that doesn't have to match. It just needs to play as low and loud as you need (hopefully, accurately) and high enough to blend with your sats. So, what I would do is consider another, available AV123 sub, or something from Hsu Research, Outlaw Audio, or SVS. Each of these brands offers high value, low cost subs that should blend well with your speakers.

Oh, and I'd ask for a refund for the sub from AV123.

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post #3 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 02:05 PM
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AV123 charged your credit card for a X-plosiv in September 2007?

If not, this is a tempest in a teapot as subs don't need to "match" your other speakers.

In a situation provided with maximum amplification, perform a disciplined action.
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post #4 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biffva View Post

AV123 charged your credit card for a X-plosiv in September 2007?

If not, this is a tempest in a teapot as subs don't need to "match" your other speakers.

correct. they charged my credit card back in Sept. 2007
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post #5 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitznFish View Post

correct. they charged my credit card back in Sept. 2007

And you haven't asked for a refund yet?

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post #6 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 02:37 PM
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That's kinda weird for them to charge for the sub. I ordered my MFW 15 along with my Rockets back in Nov '07. I had to pay for the Rockets up front to get the special sale. For my order on my MFW 15, I am not charge until it is shipped.

As stated at ********** they are going through some growing pain especially with their new products. That's the risk I am willing to take for the product and the price. If you are not happy with it, going with SVS or Hsu are also great options.
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post #7 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 03:09 PM
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AV123 made some changes to the X-plosive which drastically changed its timeframe. They changed to a new amplifier and the factory moved into a new building. Understand the frustration but check with av123 to get refund and go somewhere else. Easy as pie!
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post #8 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 03:40 PM
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I SERIOUSLY doubt that your CC was charged for the sub. AFAIK, the sub has never been officially released and like was mentioned above, went through a couple of last minute changes and a plant move which will make for a better product in the long run, but caused the delays you mention.

I'd suggest a switch to the MFW-15, but it's been so incredibly well received, it's on back order as well. It seems that everything they release of late has turned to gold and folks just can't get enough. They can't seem to get out of their own way in that regard I guess.

Look, a sub is no big deal. As long as it plays as deep as you would like with a reasonable amount of SPL's and accuracy, brand doesn't really matter. Besides, AV123 builds cabinets for more than 30 other speaker manufacturers around the world. If you look around you will most certainly see some other manufacturers subs with the same or very similar veneer and finish options.

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post #9 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitznFish View Post


What would you guys do at this point?


Thanks for letting me vent...

CitznFish

Well, I certainly wouldn't start a thread attempting to tarnish a company's rep with an already well known GREAT customer service rep. I would have been more mature and patient. Don't you think taking this up with their upper management staff would have been more effective?

Hey, you asked!

So did they charge you the full amount, or just take a deposit? Whichever one it was, YOU let them do it. That was your decision pal.

P.S. This has nothing to do with av123. I would feel the same if the guy said the same things about "Always With Wings." This could have been handled better and easier.

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post #10 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Well, I certainly wouldn't start a thread attempting to tarnish a company's rep with an already well known GREAT customer service rep. I would have been more mature and patient. Don't you think taking this up with their staff would have been more effective?

Hey, you asked!

So did they charge you the full amount, or just take a deposit? Whichever one it was, YOU let them do it. That was your decision pal.

.

So, how do you REALLY feel Nuance?

No kidding though.... a simple phone call might go something like this....

Customer: When am I going to receive my X-Plosive sub?
AV123: Well, as you know.... because of a few, that made so much adeau about nothing, we can no longer speculate about release dates. Sorry.
Customer: So, when can I get my sub? I'm getting pretty impatient.
AV123: Until we have product in warehouse, I just can't say. I'm terribly sorry. May I suggest you might want to check offerings from HSU or SVS?
Customer: What about eD? I've heard they're pretty good.
AV123: I've not personally heard the eD subs. Great reputation, but they are in the same situation as we are with regard to back orders I've heard.
Customer: So you don't know when I will get my sub?
AV123: No, sorry.... we can no longer give release/ship dates until we have product in the warehouse. Sorry.
Customer: Ok, please take the charge off my card for the sub.
AV123: There was no charge ON your card for the sub. Only the speakers that shipped and then, only when they shipped. Your CC # is being used to hold your place in line when the X-Plosives are released. Is it your wish that I cancel you from the pre-order list?
Customer: Yes, I guess. But, I'm still upset.
AV123: Again, we are very sorry. But in the long run the changes we made will make the sub even better at no additional cost to our customers. We felt it important to make those changes to please ALL of our customers. Is there anything else we can help you with?

John W.
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post #11 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 04:55 PM
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New Egg does this great thing where if they don't have a product in stock, they won't let you place an order for it, even a pre-order. I am sure they lose a lot of business that way. Then again, they have the top rep on the web for computer parts for a very good reason. Not selling items they do not possess is one of the reason they have the rep that they do. Their rep has made them hugely successful.

I've notice these factory direct companies (AV123 is by no means alone) sell products they do not possess. Unfortunately for us and fortunately for them, they all do this so if you are going to buy from one of these companies this is how you end up doing business. It seems to me these places have become too successful too quickly and can't keep up. People setting up top notch HD systems is really driving the market beyond what it used to be.

I guess you could cancel the order and go to amazon or JR and buy what they have in stock from established manufactures.
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post #12 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meparch View Post

I've notice these factory direct companies (AV123 is by no means alone) sell products they do not possess.

I don't think it's been established that AV123 *sold* a sub to the OP.

Unless you've direct experience in this matter, it would seem fair for you not to make claims such as AV123 selling products, that as you put it, they do not possess.

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post #13 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 05:27 PM
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Instead of whining on here, call the company and get it fixed.

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post #14 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 06:19 PM
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On the av123 forum you can directly talk with the ceo of the company. When i was having issues with my mfw15 that is what I did and problem solved. Might be worth a try.
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post #15 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 06:38 PM
 
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I'd be willing to bet Mark will jump into this thread eventually and sort everything out. I've seen him do this many times, I don't know where he finds the time to monitor all the audio forums. In any event, I'm sure AV123 will make things right. Good luck!
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post #16 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 06:47 PM
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it's not very hard to discover or observe a history of product delays from nearly any company with a strong web presence. i'd just be a bit more reluctant to impulsively purchase and expect things that are not in distribution yet, or nowhere near it for that matter. i'm sure they'll resolve and publicly respond.
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post #17 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 08:56 PM
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I think the idea of going public on a forum like this for certain problems is the necessary last resort for dealing with these online companies that live and die off word of mouth. We always hear about the great experiences but rarely do we hear about the bad experiences. It's the only leverage customers have in the end if something goes wrong.
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post #18 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biffva View Post

I don't think it's been established that AV123 *sold* a sub to the OP.

Unless you've direct experience in this matter, it would seem fair for you not to make claims such as AV123 selling products, that as you put it, they do not possess.

Actually I can go on their web site and order items that have yet to be made. So my statements were both VERY FAIR AND ACCURATE! One trip to their forum will confirm this. The policy is a far cry from companies that simply won't take an order for items not in stock, ready to ship, which is exactly the point I made. This guys problem is he ordered an item that was not in production and never received it. This is exactly what you can do on many of these web sites (I am not singling out AV123 here). Now he may not have been actually charged for the item but he certainly ordered it.

This is a difference between placing a preorder and an actual order. Amazon does this and makes it very clear they do not possess the item and won't be selling it for whatever amount of time. New Egg takes it one set further and simply won't take a order for an item they do not possess. They will tell you when you get have the item in stock.

These companies can save themselves and people interested in their products a lot of grief by not accepting orders unless the item is ready to ship. They could do a preorder wait list or a notify list in stead of an actual order.

My suggestion to you is to not call people out unless you know they are wrong. Reading the eD guy's blog or one trip to the AV123 forum will quickly give you a good picture of what these companies are doing and the problems they are creating for themselves.
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post #19 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Well, I certainly wouldn't start a thread attempting to tarnish a company's rep with an already well known GREAT customer service rep. I would have been more mature and patient. Don't you think taking this up with their staff would have been more effective?

Hey, you asked!

So did they charge you the full amount, or just take a deposit? Whichever one it was, YOU let them do it. That was your decision pal.

.

Yeah sure, like waiting 7 months isn't being patient. And he was charged based on some false promise of delivery within a reasonable time frame. THATS what he signed up for.

To the OP, get your money back, the clowns at AV321-boom don't deserve a penny of it with sloppy service like this.
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post #20 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meparch View Post

New Egg does this great thing where if they don't have a product in stock, they won't let you place an order for it, even a pre-order. I am sure they lose a lot of business that way. Then again, they have the top rep on the web for computer parts for a very good reason. Not selling items they do not possess is one of the reason they have the rep that they do. Their rep has made them hugely successful.

Newegg rocks! I just built a quad core PC for my folks and ordered all of my parts from them. Nice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meparch View Post


My suggestion to you is to not call people out unless you know they are wrong. Reading the eD guy's blog or one trip to the AV123 forum will quickly give you a good picture of what these companies are doing and the problems they are creating for themselves.

Judging from their popularity and well received products and customer service, I'd say that they aren't creating problems for themselves. The real problem was created by the OP himself when he supposedly (hasn't been confirmed yet) ordered a product that wasn't in production yet. Did he NEED to do that? NO! It's his fault that he didn't have the patience to wait until the product was finalized and available. There is no one to blame but himself, but instead he created a stupid thread bashing a company.

This applies to ANY company by the way, not just AV123. If a company offers pre-orders on a product not yet available, the buyer is the only one who makes the decision to purchase. Release dates get pushed back sometimes, no matter what the item is. Anyone with common sense knows this. No one forced him to buy then and there.

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post #21 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Shinobiwan View Post

Yeah sure, like waiting 7 months isn't being patient. And he was charged based on some false promise of delivery within a reasonable time frame. THATS what he signed up for.

To the OP, get your money back, the clowns at AV321-boom don't deserve a penny of it with sloppy service like this.

Who said he had to wait 7 months to ask for his money back? Who said he had to make a per-order rather than waiting until it was released? AV123 didn't; only he did. It hasn't even been confirmed that his card was charged more than a deposit to hold his pre-order. So then he starts a thread bashing a company because of his poor decision making? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

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post #22 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quadriverfalls View Post

So, how do you REALLY feel Nuance?


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post #23 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Who said he had to wait 7 months to ask for his money back? Who said he had to make a per-order rather than waiting until it was released? AV123 didn't; only he did. It hasn't even been confirmed that his card was charged more than a deposit to hold his pre-order. So then he starts a thread bashing a company because of his poor decision making? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

Lots of trolls around tonight...

If you bothered to read his post you'd see that he ordered and stuck with that decision based on delivery claims made by AV123. What's he gonna do, call them out on the first hurdle or sit patient and believe the claims they make? When he questioned them on the schedule they fed him rubbish stating delivery by the end Nov and eventually came clean in Feb, saying the sub wasn't ready. Nice of them to be honest and even better of them to really keep him up to date instead of the other way around. Clearly the guy wants the sub and was also willing to wait but from what he's said, they took the ----. Its strange that you think he's stepped over the line by posting his experience here. What would it take before its deemed a problem? 12 months? 2 years?

Seems you have to be your own customer service these days.

Its funny that you said the OP should be a little more mature about this, how ironic. Seems you can't stand criticism without resorting to calling folks trolls. Seriously, your a waste of my valuable time, laters.
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post #24 of 466 Old 03-22-2008, 11:39 PM
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Developmental delays happen. Doesn't matter what industry it is. If you buy something that is yet to be released, you need to be prepared for delays. It is odd that they charged his card, if they indeed did. One reason may have been if they were offering special pricing.... But if you don't want to wait anymore, just cancel your order, and order something that isn't vapor ware.
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post #25 of 466 Old 03-23-2008, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinobiwan View Post

Its funny that you said the OP should be a little more mature about this, how ironic. Seems you can't stand criticism without resorting to calling folks trolls. Seriously, your a waste of my valuable time, laters.

Excuse me sir, but you seem to be just as guilty by being so quick to cast blame AV123's way. Let's all take a breath for a second, take the gloves off and try and sort through this with cool and collected heads.

First, let's take a look at a few things....
  • AV123 does NOT accept payment in full for items not even released yet
  • If by chance that human error caused him to be charged for the item, a quick phone call would easily have fixed that issue
  • There are several threads on the AV123 forum detailing some recent production issues and their efforts to get them resolved
  • The owner of AV123 openly posts his personal cell number here and on all forums encouraging those with issues to give him a call so that he can get them straightened out

AV123 is not like New Egg. They are not a huge reseller of products and parts. They don't have massive numbers of folks answering the phones, dealing with CS issues and monitoring purchases, back orders or whatever.

They are a small mom and pop business with less than a dozen full time employees that happens to manufacture speakers and electronics and sells them via the internet. Of course, I'm not talking about production employees, but office, warehouse, customer service etc.

So, if the OP was inadvertantly charged for the sub (which I still hold in doubt since.... a firm selling price hasn't even been released yet), a phone call to his rep (the person he had to give his order and CC # to) would have been easy enough to get the charge reversed. Nothing at all hard about that.

The owner of AV123 is passionate about every single one of his customers being 100% happy. He bends WAY over backwards to make certain that those with issues are taken care of promptly and with respect and dignity. Like I mentioned, he posts his cell number often on the forums and encourages those with ANY problems to contact him PERSONALLY to get them resolved.

So, I would suggest, rather than openly bashing AV123 for something they may or more likely may not have done, a phone call to the OP's rep would have been the first order of business. With a call to the owner himself if he felt in some way slighted. To come here and trash the company this way, is wrong IMHO.

But, MY opinion isn't the one that counts. So, I would suggest to the OP to get busy and make a couple of calls. He will be treated fairly and with respect and taken care of.

John W.
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post #26 of 466 Old 03-23-2008, 12:36 AM
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It is great that AV123 keeps people informed of their development pipeline and what is going on behind the scenes. To allow people to place orders for speakers still in the design phase or prototyping is just asking for this very sort of thing. Ford wouldn't take orders for their latest concept car from the web if when they don't know when or even if the prototype will be put into production. I'm sorry, but it is silly to sell an item not in the warehouse let alone not even on the production line. At least wait for them to be loaded on the boat before you have people place orders. AV123 would serve themselves better by allowing people interested in future products to sign up for a news letter than hand over their CC numbers.

With that said I'll probably put an order down for some rockets real soon. Least they are on the boat. Sure the new speaker designs are very interesting and some are just down right cool like the new rocket center but I won't be ordering any of them since they don't even exist.
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post #27 of 466 Old 03-23-2008, 01:05 AM
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Quote:


I'm sorry, but it is silly to sell an item not in the warehouse let alone not even on the production line. At least wait for them to be loaded on the boat before you have people place orders. AV123 would serve themselves better by allowing people interested in future products to sign up for a news letter than hand over their CC numbers.

With that said I'll probably put an order down for some rockets real soon. Least they are on the boat. Sure the new speaker designs are very interesting and some are just down right cool like the new rocket center but I won't be ordering any of them since they don't even exist.

But, the point that I'm trying to make is you CAN'T purchase an item that they don't yet have.

I admit, they now do have a targeted seling price of $399 each in black with a $50 up charge for premium veneers. They didn't have this back in 11/07 that I'm aware of.

So, for SH**s and giggles, I just tried to buy one and got this....


As for any type of future product "PRE-ORDER" list.... if it's something I really want, I'd GLADLY give my CC# to get in line and be the first to get one. Nowing FULL WELL that targeted release dates are just that.... targets, estimates, guesstimates with no expectations what so ever about exactly when I would receive the product.

John W.
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post #28 of 466 Old 03-23-2008, 01:15 AM
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I haven't dealt with AV123 directly but I know quite a few people who have and the thing that stands out about this story the most is the fact that the OP claims he was already charged for the sub. I'm not saying the OP is lying but I really doubt it and I'm sure a simple call would have fixed that.

Second, it is a legitimate practice to allow pre-orders on products that aren't released/available yet. People get excited about new products they see and want their place in line. There's nothing wrong with it.

Finally, although it can be annoying, with the amount of business they do and the allegedly smallish staff they have, it's a little difficult to expect them to update all their customers about everything. Sometimes, companies just don't have the manpower or hours and the burden falls on the consumer.
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post #29 of 466 Old 03-23-2008, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meparch View Post

Actually I can go on their web site and order items that have yet to be made. So my statements were both VERY FAIR AND ACCURATE! One trip to their forum will confirm this. The policy is a far cry from companies that simply won't take an order for items not in stock, ready to ship, which is exactly the point I made. This guys problem is he ordered an item that was not in production and never received it. This is exactly what you can do on many of these web sites (I am not singling out AV123 here). Now he may not have been actually charged for the item but he certainly ordered it.

This is a difference between placing a preorder and an actual order. Amazon does this and makes it very clear they do not possess the item and won't be selling it for whatever amount of time. New Egg takes it one set further and simply won't take a order for an item they do not possess. They will tell you when you get have the item in stock.

These companies can save themselves and people interested in their products a lot of grief by not accepting orders unless the item is ready to ship. They could do a preorder wait list or a notify list in stead of an actual order.

My suggestion to you is to not call people out unless you know they are wrong. Reading the eD guy's blog or one trip to the AV123 forum will quickly give you a good picture of what these companies are doing and the problems they are creating for themselves.


You said that AV123 *sells* products that they do not have.

You're either changing the definition of selling or you're not telling the truth.

Which one is it?

In a situation provided with maximum amplification, perform a disciplined action.
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post #30 of 466 Old 03-23-2008, 05:40 AM
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All this back and forth is stupid. All it seems to me is that some of the people above who are loyal fans of av123 are just bashing the original poster about his experience with the sub. Some of what he said may be right, some may be wrong.

AV123's problem (imo) is that they are setting expectations for everything too high (which has been said many times). They give a lot of promises on products (be it from when they are shipped to when they are complete) and as of late can't follow through with it. Hey, crap happens, we all know that, but still, you can't put all the blame on the OP for being frustrated b/c a sub that he ordered awhile ago hasn't come out yet when he/she's been given dates of when it will ship that have passed.

So chill out on the OP and stop acting like AV123 is godly and they can do no wrong. They can't, NO company can. Just because you all have had great experiences with a company, doesn't mean everybody has. We need to hear all of the postivies and the negatives and so does the actual company so they can improve their company and come as close as possible to doing no wrong. Besides, I don't think his complaint really is that bad compared to 95% of the complaints I hear from people. Anyways thats enough for me.
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