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post #91 of 157 Old 09-14-2009, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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All right, then we'll shoot for the end of October or so. I'll collaborate with Terry and Patrick. PM me and we'll chat more.

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post #92 of 157 Old 09-14-2009, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

All right, then we'll shoot for the end of October or so. I'll collaborate with Terry and Patrick. PM me and we'll chat more.

I am going to shoot for the end of Oct. first week of November. I am still gathering information on how to perform, but I do know that it will be between all price ranges with the participants comparing speakers against speakers of similiar prices but more expensive as well. I think it will be over more than one weekend and will probably be quite a bit of work and the fun will be after the test. I will not partiicipate but will help administer. I hope to NOT know which speakers are A or B. To my mind and other advisors level matching, equalizing the bass differences, and speaker positioning in the room are the biggest hurdles to at least a somewhat "fair" test.

I would like to have speakers being compared first in their own price category and then being compared against a preferred speaker of a more expensive price. Or I may not have time to do all that and I will compare against random selections. Obviously, Craigs are very inexpensive so I would tend to want to compare them from a "polk or infinity" from Amazon or Best Buy of a similiar price. Not sure, but I will post my thoughts as I develop my protocols. Frankly, this will be a lot of work but hopefully interesting if nothing else.

RIght now, I have four people in mind for the test. Two are people not on the forums but are considered very knowledgeable. Two are on the forums and partiicipate regularly. For the most part, except for one speaker and one participant, I think they are unfamiliar with the speakers that will be tested. I will ask for a full disclosure for participants as to whether they have heard any of the speakers in the comparisions and whether they are very familiar (as in own) or somewhat familiar. One thing this will not determine is what is the "most accurate speaker". One of the people I contacted correctly pointed out to me that some initially indentify something that is exactly the opposite of accurate because they have a conditioned bias. In other words, they think an overly bright or laid back speaker as accurate.

That all being said, this is not Harmon so I can only adjust speaker positioning and the room by making comparisions with switching positions and a number of samples.
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post #93 of 157 Old 09-14-2009, 08:05 PM
 
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Randy ... don't fret over price. Feel free to put the WAF-1's up against more expensive speakers, just as Brandon and the guys in Wisconsin plan.

Afterall, the whole point of these guys is to give some high end sound (and looks) for budget money. Let's see what they can do.
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post #94 of 157 Old 09-14-2009, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Randy ... don't fret over price. Feel free to put the WAF-1's up against more expensive speakers, just as Brandon and the guys in Wisconsin plan.

Afterall, the whole point of these guys is to give some high end sound (and looks) for budget money. Let's see what they can do.

Thanks Craig. Makes sense and makes it a little easier.
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post #95 of 157 Old 09-14-2009, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Randy,

Kudos to you for all the hard work and putting this together. One thing is for sure: you were right when you said this will not be easy. That's a fact. And no matter how well planned out and carried out things go, there will be naysayers and critics. Ignore them and have yourself a good time. No matter the results, we all look forward to a good read when you're finished.

Thanks for doing this Randy, and not just because certain brands are involved. Thanks simply for just putting in the time and effort. Best wishes to you man.

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post #96 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 05:56 AM
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You guys should get some Geddes Abbey speakers involved!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #97 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

I am going to shoot for the end of Oct. first week of November. I am still gathering information on how to perform, but I do know that it will be between all price ranges with the participants comparing speakers against speakers of similiar prices but more expensive as well. I think it will be over more than one weekend and will probably be quite a bit of work and the fun will be after the test. I will not partiicipate but will help administer. I hope to NOT know which speakers are A or B. To my mind and other advisors level matching, equalizing the bass differences, and speaker positioning in the room are the biggest hurdles to at least a somewhat "fair" test.

You might find this article of interest:
http://www.audioholics.com/buying-gu...listening-test

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #98 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 07:53 AM
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LOL! I knew that link looked familiar. Saw it about 15 posts ago. You might find Craig's response of intererst.

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Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

FYI, you might be interested if you haven't seen it:
http://audioholics.com/buying-guides...listening-test

Nothing new maybe but recent vintage anyway. The main point is how difficult it is to get reliable results. Many listening tests discussed in this forum have been full of big problems, but the bottom line "results" get quoted and repeated out of context in a way that completely hides the issues and limitations of the results. It's a shame that those who run those have insisted on treating them as meaningful and definitive, rather than just an interesting day for the participants.

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buzzy_ ... These speaker listening tests are always interesting. Nuance and friends may be having a small GTG to compare bookshelf speakers under "sighted" conditions.

Blind tests are useful, but one must be careful about the results from a blind test, too. Below is a copy/paste from almost 2 years ago in regards to a blind test we had here:

Quote:


Originally Posted by craigsub
Hi all - Here is a link to the blind bookshelf speaker test in Affordable Audio.

http://www.affordableaudio.org/aa2007-10.pdf

Let's have a friendly chat about the results ... I will start with the following thoughts.

1. We had a great time.

2. I think the panel members came away with a greater understanding of how hard audio truly is to get a grasp on when blind listening is brought into the equation. Specifically, guys who were SURE they were hearing one thing were reporting different results under blind conditions.

3. NO purchase decisions should be made based on this test ... each listener was hearing different likes and dislikes from each speaker, and .... this deserves bold print .... NO speaker was unanimously picked over its AB competitor

Even with this caveat being posted, people were pretty fired up after this was done.

Hopefully, Randy and Nuance can put together their listening sessions. I am pretty sure they won't be declaring their test is any sort of absolute endorsement nor condemnation of any product.

They will probably just end up having lots of fun.


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post #99 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You guys should get some Geddes Abbey speakers involved!

I have Earl's speakers but I would not consider the Abbey a bookshelf. I do have also his Harpers and will consider putting them in the test if there is enough interest. I don't want to get so many that it gets harder to do than it aleady is. Once I have the protocols set-up, I will list the speakers I have or have available and can get a consensus of what should be considered. If no consensus, I will decide.
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post #100 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You might find this article of interest:
http://www.audioholics.com/buying-gu...listening-test

Craig

It is and I did read that. I also have a PM to Sean Olive and hopefully he will give me some guidelines, although he is a busy guy and I wouldn't be so presumptuos (sp.) that he will have the time.
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post #101 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Rijax View Post

LOL! I knew that link looked familiar. Saw it about 15 posts ago. You might find Craig's response of intererst.

I hope to do one thing only and that is try to remove sight bias. After that I realize that it will not be scientific and will be subject to limitations. That is a given. My thought is to not reveal the identity of the speakers until all the tests are complete and the results have been tabulated and then the participants and the forum will learn the results at the same time. If possible, I would also like to conduct it such that I am not even sure of the results until the tabulation is given to me by a third party.

This is a ways away though and the best laid plans of mice and men.....so I don't want to say for sure how eveything will be done until I talk to more people about methodology.
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post #102 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 09:27 AM
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Sounds good, Randy. Just have fun with it.

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post #103 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

buzzy_ ... These speaker listening tests are always interesting. Nuance and friends may be having a small GTG to compare bookshelf speakers under "sighted" conditions.

Blind tests are useful, but one must be careful about the results from a blind test, too. Below is a copy/paste from almost 2 years ago in regards to a blind test we had here:



Even with this caveat being posted, people were pretty fired up after this was done.

Hopefully, Randy and Nuance can put together their listening sessions. I am pretty sure they won't be declaring their test is any sort of absolute endorsement nor condemnation of any product.

They will probably just end up having lots of fun.

Not sure what you mean on this ...

"one must be careful about the results from a blind test" - in what way?

"people were pretty fired up after this was done" - which people, fired up about what?
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post #104 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 06:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

Not sure what you mean on this ...

"one must be careful about the results from a blind test" - in what way?

"people were pretty fired up after this was done" - which people, fired up about what?

Buzzy_ ... There are a lot of reasons to be careful. Blind testing removes bias, but not preference.

A blind test is a great way of finding out how much each individual likes a product. But, taking those results as a form of decision making event is a bad idea.

Taking the results as a guide towards helping is a good idea.

The fired up people ... this is all history now.
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post #105 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 07:04 PM
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The fired up people ... this is all history now.

The only people I remember being all fired up.... were the ones who missed that dinner.

John W.
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post #106 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

Not sure what you mean on this ...

"one must be careful about the results from a blind test" - in what way?

"people were pretty fired up after this was done" - which people, fired up about what?

There was an audioholic article posted earlier about what could be done to skew a blind test, definitely not a bad one, and you should also read the comments as many people have added many other possible issues. (See post #97)

I guess you could say I was one of the people who was supposedly 'fired up' lol but there was in fact no real fire involved.

First, there was an issue with a switcher used... There's a technical post on the Ascend forum about it, basically, switcher was used to attenuate some speakers, and every speaker which was attenuated 'lost'. Why 'lost'? Well, each speaker was attributed a mark... Can't recall what it was based on, but it was something like "X scored 68 while Y scored 79". (the switcher messed up attenuated speaker's crossover..)

Here's a quote from... hmm... '07

Quote:


There was quite a few comments like these:
Quote:


For the purists out there – this wasn’t about heavy-duty critical listening intended to yield published results designed to convince, cajole or influence a decision on speakers. No one will be publishing charts/graphs or imposing their opinion on anyone based on what was heard/listened to. It was simply he chance to compare and enjoy.

The time spent was special and enjoyable because of the people I got to interact with.

The audio was the catalyst, but we spent more time talking with each other than we did listening to speakers. I guess that’s why these gatherings are referred to as "get togethers" rather than Listening Test Meetings or Subwoofer Shoot-out Summits.

Yet, for some reason now, there was definitive marks, and look at this measurement and this other measurement, that proves that test was perfect! The results are indisputable... Those who say otherwise weren't there, those who were were all in perfect agreement with the finality of the tests... Huh, no!

Quote:


The Ascend 340 was better than the Acculine in my opinion, but others did not agree. At this point preference of presentation probably plays a bigger role than quality as there was nothing "wrong" with the sound with either pair like I felt with the NHT and Dana's.

Quote:


I thought the blind testing yielded some very interesting results. It most definitely proved just how subjective speakers really are. What one person liked a lot, another person didn’t like in the least.

During the testing, there were 4 rows of seats and some of them stretched from one side wall to the other. If you were in one particular seat and had determined a particular speaker was noticeably better, in another seat your opinion became the opposite. And more than likely, in yet another seat, your opinion would change again.

It sounds to me like basically everyone knew that "the situation was flawed" as you put it. Given what we discovered, (effect of veil, switcher, etc..), it really shines a new light on the result (or question marks if you prefer...)


My point for the last few posts, was that the results, the scoring, the 'winners', could not be taken with any kind of credibility. As someone said, "It allows people to get an idea of what the speaker does well, and what it doesn't do well -- where its compromises and tonality lie.", it doesn't even allow to do that given all the problems I've mentioned before, and even according to the people who DID participate in the GTG.


Anyhow, a few easy things not to get wrong. 1) don't use a switcher might might mess up crossovers...
2) don't get so many listeners so that so many are seated in absolutely bad spots, such as, 4 rows spanning from one wall to another... There's what's called a "sweet spot" for listening to speakers, and this is right in the center of both speakers... The exact spot varies depending on speakers, speaker placement, room, etc... But, you definitely want to be sitting in the sweet spot when rating speakers. Sitting outside of the sweet spot makes performance much worst... Averaging all good/bad spots makes very little sens...

If you get people saying things like: "If you were in one particular seat and had determined a particular speaker was noticeably better, in another seat your opinion became the opposite. And more than likely, in yet another seat, your opinion would change again." after the test, then you can be certain that you can't take with any credibility a subjective 'score' you've compiled for each speaker...

Anyhow, usually, it's all common sens stuff... Level matching is another issue... You definitely want speakers to play at the same volume. But having done a couple comparisons & EQ messing with, I can tell you that how you level match might be an issue... Anyhow, pretty much whatever you do, you'll probably not get a perfect test everyone will agree with... You just have to make sure you don't do some stuff very badly...

Quote:


As I said, many said that depending on the listening position, the sound changed dramatically and even favorites changed... Seems to me like there was an issue there. Usually you judge speakers by the sweet spot. Not average of many listening positions which dramatically change the sound...

You can't really, for example, take say 40 listening positions, 30 of which might have been considered bad, and average the results from them all...

Anyhow, as I said, no matter what you do, people will probably be able to find some faults, I guess the best thing to do is present your data and results honestly, being careful not to draw incorrect conclusions. When presented as such, not much anyone can argue with, but if you come up with something like, X scored 45, and Y scored 55, so 55 won, then yeah, chances are people will challenge your results... And the worst of all, speakers are subjective... 2 people might listen to two speakers and prefer different ones... The preference aren't that important, the descriptions/differences/strengths/weaknesses/etc are... imho...
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post #107 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I disagree and think winners and/or losers based on ratings is a good idea (so do Sean Olive and Floyd Toole, for what it's worth. They didn't assign number scores, but they did rank them first, second, third, etc). The important thing to remember is the results should not be taken as "speaker A won so it will always be better than speaker B, so buy speaker A." The results only apply to those listeners in that room using those electronics. If you keep that in mind then there is nothing to get "fired up" about. Obviously that didn't stop some people, though...

My final "piece of advice" is to ignore those who do "get fired up." They are usually the type of people who are either upset because their brand lost (angry based on biases) or simply love to argue and won't stop until they've exhausted themselves doing so. There is a major difference between that type of person and the person who gives constructive criticism to help in the future. Don't get those two types of people confused, as constructive criticism is good. Again, ignore those who only want to wine and argue for the sake of it and don't let them ruin your fun. Those same type of people even bash Toole and Olive's tests.

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post #108 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 07:39 PM
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Something to consider in rankings is they're not necessarily absolute. I look at rankings more like probabilities. Even though it's a hard number, there's fuzziness associated with it. With increasing sample sizes, fuzziness tends to go down and one might reasonably expect 1 to change places with 2 or 3.

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post #109 of 157 Old 09-15-2009, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I disagree and think winners and/or losers based on ratings is a good idea (so do Sean Olive and Floyd Toole, for what it's worth. They didn't assign number scores, but they did rank them first, second, third, etc). The important thing to remember is the results should not be taken as "speaker A won so it will always be better than speaker B, so buy speaker A." The results only apply to those listeners in that room using those electronics. If you keep that in mind then there is nothing to get "fired up" about. Obviously that didn't stop some people, though...

My final "piece of advice" is to ignore those who do "get fired up." They are usually the type of people who are either upset because their brand lost (angry based on biases) or simply love to argue and won't stop until they've exhausted themselves doing so. There is a major difference between that type of person and the person who gives constructive criticism to help in the future. Don't get those two types of people confused, as constructive criticism is good. Again, ignore those who only want to wine and argue for the sake of it and don't let them ruin your fun. Those same type of people even bash Toole and Olive's tests.

Say what you will, but when you have a large number of listeners, not sure of the exact count, four rows, probably at least 6 seats per row, for >24 listeners, reducing every listener's thoughts to a score, such as 55, and then presenting it to represent a speaker's performance, is worthless. Especially when a large number of listening positions (majority?) were inadequate.

Again, such blind tests should be limited to a reasonable number of listeners. If there's place for say 6 or 8 good listening positions, cramming 40 people, spanning 4 rows, from one wall to the other, isn't beneficial at all for the test, it's actually the opposite, it's detrimental. Again, when people after the test say things like: "If you were in one particular seat and had determined a particular speaker was noticeably better, in another seat your opinion became the opposite. And more than likely, in yet another seat, your opinion would change again.", how can you put any worth to the results?

Again, you cannot average the score of , say, 10 abysmal listening positions, 10 bad ones, 6 not so bad, and 6 decent to get a definitive score on speaker performance. It's ridiculous.

But hey, what else can you do? If there was 30 listeners, and notes go like:
A) I like these, good and tight bass, not bright at all
B) I disliked these, no bass at all, bright at times
C) I like them, good bass, bit recessed highs and mids, overall not bad
D) I hated them, way too much bass, recessed treble...

So you do what, list all 30, all of which are contradicting themselves? No.. You average results... (well if you're lazy and don't want to do what you should be doing )

A) 60 vs 55
B) 40 vs 65
C) 50 vs 40
D) 30 vs 35
--------------
45 pts vs 49 pts

So is this the same as the above? Seeing every comment? Does this mean the same thing? Does this have the same worth? No... Even looking at the final score, 45 vs 49, you might think one was better, but actually, looking at just the four scores might tell a different story... (And as I said, speakers are subjective, so knowing you scored 40 on one and 65 because you like more bass and one had more bass... Again... Is worthwhile of mention)

Again, you have some people trying to discredit others: "people who are either upset because their brand lost (angry based on biases) or simply love to argue ", but that's just the same old stories with these forums. It's much easier to try to discredit someone than to rebuke their arguments.

What is also easy is build straw man fallacies: "I disagree and think winners and/or losers based on ratings is a good idea.". Basically, you present someone's argument as something it's not, and disprove this made up argument. It's simply a logical fallacy mostly employed by people with old grudges...

"the best thing to do is present your data and results honestly, being careful not to draw incorrect conclusions."

Again, if you had, say, 30 listeners, an honest way of presenting the results would be to present every test sheet for every listener. That would be interesting to see as a result, because it would give the reader a decent idea of what transpired in the test. Again, it's simply presenting your data in an honest and correct fashion... One has to be careful not to present incorrect conclusions... Just presenting one mark averaging the good/bad listening positions definitely isn't the best idea imho.
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post #110 of 157 Old 09-16-2009, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

I have Earl's speakers but I would not consider the Abbey a bookshelf. I do have also his Harpers and will consider putting them in the test if there is enough interest. I don't want to get so many that it gets harder to do than it aleady is. Once I have the protocols set-up, I will list the speakers I have or have available and can get a consensus of what should be considered. If no consensus, I will decide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

It is and I did read that. I also have a PM to Sean Olive and hopefully he will give me some guidelines, although he is a busy guy and I wouldn't be so presumptuos (sp.) that he will have the time.

I look forward to reading all about the tests, definitely PM Sean Olive too!

btw, OT we are trying to match Geddes designs with DIY. Augerpro has done an incredible job with many, many driver/waveguide measurements and he is very close to a $200/per speaker DIY solution that will be simply be untouchable.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post17188327

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post #111 of 157 Old 09-17-2009, 04:04 AM
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Lots of reports received on this thread

Suggest you get back ON TOPIC and keep ON TOPIC, or you will be asked to leave the thread
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post #112 of 157 Old 09-17-2009, 07:19 AM
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Very interesting.....back on topic, are the WAF-1 shipping?
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post #113 of 157 Old 09-17-2009, 07:36 AM
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Yes they have been shipping.
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post #114 of 157 Old 09-17-2009, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Very interesting.....back on topic, are the WAF-1 shipping?

How do you think I got my pair?

Randy, please do start a thread on your upcoming test. And if you wouldn't mind, can you like it here?

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post #115 of 157 Old 09-17-2009, 10:49 AM
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How do you think I got my pair?

Randy, please do start a thread on your upcoming test. And if you wouldn't mind, can you like it here?

How long did it take to complete your order?
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post #116 of 157 Old 09-17-2009, 11:30 AM
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How do you think I got my pair?

Randy, please do start a thread on your upcoming test. And if you wouldn't mind, can you like it here?

Well Nuance, I'm hoping you didn't get man boob implants now!

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #117 of 157 Old 09-17-2009, 11:34 AM
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How long did it take to complete your order?

Randy, you've got a PM.

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post #118 of 157 Old 09-17-2009, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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How long did it take to complete your order?

A couple minutes, then they shipped the next day and got here two days from that point.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
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post #119 of 157 Old 09-17-2009, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Well Nuance, I'm hoping you didn't get man boob implants now!

Me too, as I'd never leave my bedroom if I had a pair of boobs to play with.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
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post #120 of 157 Old 09-17-2009, 02:29 PM
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Randy, you've got a PM.

Got it and sounds like they are on their way. Update-arrived yesterday-very quick turn around. Have not had a chance to listen to yet.
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