Do you want a neutral and correct speaker? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 511 Old 07-02-2008, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

^ aren't all speakers inaccurate? I mean, first you'd have to define accuracy, but you know what I mean. There is no speaker without a flaw, therefore all speakers are inaccurate, no? If so, NIN's point is moot.

Actually, I think some speakers exhibit a persistent coloration that shines through on everything played through them. More accurate speakers allow more of the sound of the recording to come through with less coloration. Having been in it for more than 40 years, I can assure you that many speakers from the 60s and 70s and beyond had a "house sound" while others from the same era attempted to impart less character to the music.

I have an uncle who's been in it for more like 60 years who often told me to listen to different versions of the same piece of music: a good speaker will highlight the (sonic) differences in the different performances while others will impart their own signature making different performances sound the same.

Tony

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post #452 of 511 Old 07-02-2008, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

if the speaker give all music the same "sound"

is the statement that I think means nothing....I can use $50 insignia speakers and play AC/DC then play Rush. they definitely will not sound the same so his point about giving all music the same "sound" does not make sense to any of us.

There is simply not an accurate speaker period, there is always a flaw. I wish people would get over that fact and go listen and joy what they like instead of debating what is accurate and not accurate.

Speaker accuracy acceptance is 100% a personal choice.

I do think that some speakers in the right invoriment can be 100% transparent for most humans. That's what I call an accurate speaker for the main population.

The fact that we all don't buy the same speakers has nothing to do with the fact that most of us like accurate/neutral sound reproduction. Very few buy speakers 100% based on sound.

Debating speakers accuracy and so on do I find interesting myself.

/Chuck

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post #453 of 511 Old 07-02-2008, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuck V View Post

I do think that some speakers in the right invoriment can be 100% transparent for most humans.
/Chuck

So, we can see through them?

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post #454 of 511 Old 07-02-2008, 09:33 AM
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Where are all the in room FR graphs? Anechoic is one thing, I mean my speakers say they're damn near perfectly flat from 50h-20k @ 1w @1m, but in room at ~90 watts (reference level) and 2.5 meters is an entirely different story. I'm +/-27dB from 60h-6k.

Also, I've moved 3 times with these speakers. This is the flattest measurement I've taken. You should've seen the echo chamber. I think I was swinging up to 40dB through the middle there. Anyway, you people have no idea how your speakers measure in room. Make your graphs. I think it would be enlightening for us all.

This is in room.


Manufacturer graph.
[img]http://**********/images/stories/News/reference1-fr.jpg?phpMyAdmin=YbJVjkIDoHbfGxM3KDJWoOYA8h9[/img]
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post #455 of 511 Old 07-02-2008, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

^ aren't all speakers inaccurate? I mean, first you'd have to define accuracy, but you know what I mean. There is no speaker without a flaw, therefore all speakers are inaccurate, no? If so, NIN's point is moot.


Well, I hope you understand the difference between having 5% fault and 65% fault. Just because the 100% perfect speaker don't exist, don't make all speaker "neutral". So if one wants the most neutral speakers, one must look for the one with smallest faults.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #456 of 511 Old 07-02-2008, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

if the speaker give all music the same "sound"

is the statement that I think means nothing....I can use $50 insignia speakers and play AC/DC then play Rush. they definitely will not sound the same so his point about giving all music the same "sound" does not make sense to any of us.

There is simply not an accurate speaker period, there is always a flaw. I wish people would get over that fact and go listen and joy what they like instead of debating what is accurate and not accurate.

Speaker accuracy acceptance is 100% a personal choice.


The fact IS that some speaker ARE more neutral than others. Like I and Chuck said, many speaker do give the same sound to the music it reproduce. For exampel, if one speaker have a treble that is "too hot", it will reproduce ALL music with the same signature. If a speaker reproduce the treble correctly with low distortion it will make all music sound more different than the speaker that will give the same "hot treble" sound to everything.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #457 of 511 Old 07-03-2008, 05:54 PM
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There's no such no such thing as a neutral and correct speaker, just good ones and bad ones and ones that are closer to nueutrality than others. .

One shall stand... One Shall Fall... - Optimus Prime
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post #458 of 511 Old 07-03-2008, 08:56 PM
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The fact IS that some speaker ARE more neutral than others. Like I and Chuck said, many speaker do give the same sound to the music it reproduce. For exampel, if one speaker have a treble that is "too hot", it will reproduce ALL music with the same signature. If a speaker reproduce the treble correctly with low distortion it will make all music sound more different than the speaker that will give the same "hot treble" sound to everything.

Yes, Got it!

Bad speakers make all music sound bad...good speakers stop us from buying more speakers

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post #459 of 511 Old 07-03-2008, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Yes, Got it!

Bad speakers make all music sound bad...good speakers stop us from buying more speakers

No, bad speakers make some music sound good. Good speakers make some music sound bad. Got it ?
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post #460 of 511 Old 07-04-2008, 11:37 AM
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Interesting quote from Kevin Voecks of Revel:

Quote:



Voecks: We can easily predict which loudspeakers will be preferred and which will not. For example, a speaker that measures poorly on axis will never be preferred in our double-blind listening tests. Also, listening tests correlated best with our measurements conducted in an anechoic chamber, like the one we have at the Harman facility in California. In that chamber, we perform 72 measurements from different positions that, all together, make up a sphere surrounding the speaker. This technique of measurement and the software used to process the resulting data are called Spin-o-rama.

We do a traditional on-axis measurement as part of the "Spin-o-rama" measurement, but the "listening window" is the most useful measurement of the direct sound. It is comprised of 10, 20, and 30° horizontal off-axis measurements, and ±10° vertical measurements.

Another listening preference that is reliably reproduced [is the effect of] speaker resonances. Research shows that resonances are audible and influence listener preferences. Speakers with resonances are not preferred by our listening panel. The best way to detect a resonance is to compare a single-point measure with an averaged on-axis response processed with Spin-o-rama. If a peak that is found with a single measurement goes down when you look at the averaged and processed multiple measures, then the peak was due to microphone placement. If the level of the peak does not drop when many on-axis measurements are averaged, then the peak is one coming from the speaker and due to a true resonance.

Spin-o-rama plots also describe a loudspeaker's off-axis response. Up to10kHz, the off-axis response also will predict which speakers are preferred by our listening panel. Those speakers without large resonances and which have an off-axis response similar to the on-axis response are most often preferred. That's why we endeavor to make the off-axis response similar to the on-axis measurement.

http://stereophile.com/interviews/608kev/

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post #461 of 511 Old 07-04-2008, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitsum View Post

No, bad speakers make some music sound good. Good speakers make some music sound bad. Got it ?

But either way that still means bad sound; so it's almost a waste of time.

One shall stand... One Shall Fall... - Optimus Prime
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post #462 of 511 Old 07-04-2008, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond Leggs View Post

But either way that still means bad sound; so it's almost a waste of time.

Too deep for your understanding, I see.

Tony

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post #463 of 511 Old 07-04-2008, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

Where are all the in room FR graphs? Anechoic is one thing, I mean my speakers say they're damn near perfectly flat from 50h-20k @ 1w @1m, but in room at ~90 watts (reference level) and 2.5 meters is an entirely different story. I'm +/-27dB from 60h-6k.

Also, I've moved 3 times with these speakers. This is the flattest measurement I've taken. You should've seen the echo chamber. I think I was swinging up to 40dB through the middle there. Anyway, you people have no idea how your speakers measure in room. Make your graphs. I think it would be enlightening for us all.

Excellent point. I'd say you are closer to +/- 14 dB than 27, since if your baseline was about 85 dB, none of your measurements were off by more than 14.

I started graphing my in room response last weekend and when it was looking like the graph you posted I stopped because I thought I was doing it wrong, LOL. I don't have a radio shack sound level meter, I have a $1000 Quest dosimeter so I didn't know if the settings were the same (namely A, B or C scale). I'll try doing mine again soon, but ya I was getting some swings from around 90 to 79 one or two octaves apart
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post #464 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond Leggs View Post

But either way that still means bad sound; so it's almost a waste of time.


No. Think about it. If you listen to a "bad" recording that have too much treble. A more neutral and good speaker will reproduce that without adding more treble and distortion. The recording will sound "bad"
Take speaker 2 that are adding more treble and also add distortion to the sound. Then the recording will sound even worse.

So I would say that a neutral speaker will sound best on all music.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #465 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 10:21 AM
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No. Think about it. If you listen to a "bad" recording that have too much treble. A more neutral and good speaker will reproduce that without adding more treble and distortion. The recording will sound "bad"
Take speaker 2 that are adding more treble and also add distortion to the sound. Then the recording will sound even worse.

So I would say that a neautral speaker will sound best on all music.

It all depends on the drugs!!!


Btw, you keep posting like you are the authority and what you like is what everyone else likes.

meaning you are really saying So I would say that a neautral speaker will sound best on all music FOR ME


How many pages does it take for you too learn that we are not you?? We are all different. I like my music to sound a different way period. I dont call it neutral I call it Doug's EQ, I have some music where I add bass into it, some music where I tweak the upper end but that is my preference, I dont care at all if no one else does it that way.

All the proper brands on here talked about daily are good speakers and they pay sound back for us in the way that we like.

That is all that matters!!

You want something different then go buy it but this has to be one of the dumbest circular discussion going on here

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post #466 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post

Actually, I think some speakers exhibit a persistent coloration that shines through on everything played through them. More accurate speakers allow more of the sound of the recording to come through with less coloration. Having been in it for more than 40 years, I can assure you that many speakers from the 60s and 70s and beyond had a "house sound" while others from the same era attempted to impart less character to the music.

I have an uncle who's been in it for more like 60 years who often told me to listen to different versions of the same piece of music: a good speaker will highlight the (sonic) differences in the different performances while others will impart their own signature making different performances sound the same.

That makes sense to me. I'd have to agree for the most part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Well, I hope you understand the difference between having 5% fault and 65% fault. Just because the 100% perfect speaker don't exist, don't make all speaker "neutral". So if one wants the most neutral speakers, one must look for the one with smallest faults.

Of course I understand that some have more faults than others. And remember, I am the one who first used the phrase "one must find the speakers of whose faults he/she can live with;" you just copied it. You're preaching to the choir man.

This thread is kind of getting pointless. The same things are being said over and over, just in different ways. But no matter how your phrase it, there is not currently (nor has there been) a perfectly 100% neutral speaker that is 100% accepted as such by the majority of people on this planet. Sure, many of us would like a more transparent speaker, but no speaker is perfect, at least not yet. And that's the only 100% factual statement we can make.

We're all starting to sound like a broken record. So due to the language barrier of some and the sheer lack of understanding of others, I'm going to bow out of this one. I actually "get it," but some don't and perhaps never will. It's frustrating for sure but at least we can say we tried to educated them. They're just too stubborn and naive to get it.


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post #467 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 11:02 AM
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We're all starting to sound like a broken record. So due to the language barrier of some and the sheer lack of understanding of others, I'm going to bow out of this one. I actually "get it," but some don't and perhaps never will. It's frustrating for sure but at least we can say we tried to educated them. They're just too stubborn and naive to get it.

I know I fully understand the point behind this thread and I think its a very selfserving promotional thread. NIN74 wants a very neutral speaker setup and he is passing his opinion off as fact.

The only fact is that we all want something, and that something just could be a different sounding speaker setup. Is that such a bad thing? NIN74 thinks its bad and he is upset about all the crappy speakers available. Well I disagree, I could list 10 popular speakers that have a huge following and are loved by their owners. Does NIN74 actually think we care if he doesnt like our speakers?

NIN74 should post the speakers he thinks sucks, instead of hiding from his true opinion!


16 pages of the same lame arguement over and over. You would think he would be bored with it and realize we may just be different then he is?

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post #468 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 11:18 AM
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Maybe this may help clear it up a bit.

Not only is there no such thing as a 100% neutral speaker, and while it's true that every speaker has a degree of faults, the faults that different speakers exhibit are............well...........different.

If we take Nin74 example regarding high frequency performance only, than yes, the speaker that has less high frequency distortion "should" be considered more neutral..........but..........what if that speaker that has less high frequency distortion has more mid frequency distortion, or more distortion off-axis than on? Than that speaker may well NOT be considered more neutral. And then add to that the factor of room acoustics where one room may make one speaker sound more neutral and another room may make another speaker sound more neutral.

There are just wayyyyy tooooo many variables. Then when you add to those variables, the variable that all of us has different tolerances as to what we can accept and not accept regarding speaker performances, not only with what we psychologically prefer, but also our varying physical abilities in how we perceive sound, is it no wonder that peoples opinions will differ as to what speaker is more neutral than the other?

So yes, all speakers have faults, AND they exhibit these faults in many different ways, AND all the faults vary from one degree to another, AND these same faults that speakers have is also present in MANY different ways both in our physical ability to hear as well as our personal preferences as to what we like or don't like.

So with that in mind, there is just no way that one can make any kind of general statement regarding speaker neutrality and how ANY of us would preceive that neutrality. (and to those that may quote the Olive papers regarding the double blind test at Harmon, that was only measuring neutrality in ONE facet of speaker performance and that was frequency response).

I know that this has been all said before, but I just thought I'd reword it a bit to see if it made any more sense to those that disagree.
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post #469 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

It all depends on the drugs!!!


I see you don't understand this simple things and instead behave like a 10 year old boy. Very unserious.




Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Btw, you keep posting like you are the authority and what you like is what everyone else likes.


Where did I do that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

meaning you are really saying So I would say that a neautral speaker will sound best on all music FOR ME


Well, maybe you like distortion and crappy sound, not my problem.




Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

How many pages does it take for you too learn that we are not you??


You maybe should learn to read? I did ASK a question.



Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

We are all different.


Studies show that we are not so different at all. So please, check things out before making stuff up.



Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I like my music to sound a different way period.


Yes, I understand you like distortion and bad sound.




Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I dont call it neutral I call it Doug's EQ, I have some music where I add bass into it, some music where I tweak the upper end but that is my preference, I dont care at all if no one else does it that way.


And I don't care about it either, I just asked a question. If it was to hard to read, you maybe should get someone to read it for you?



Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

All the proper brands on here talked about daily are good speakers and they pay sound back for us in the way that we like.


"Good sound" is whatever. Good reproduction of the music signal, is another thing. That is what high fidelity is about. Maybe you are not interested in that but others are.



Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You want something different then go buy it but this has to be one of the dumbest circular discussion going on here


No, dumb is not understanding the simple fact I have pointed out. Maybe mommy can help you?

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #470 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

This thread is kind of getting pointless. The same things are being said over and over, just in different ways. But no matter how your phrase it, there is not currently (nor has there been) a perfectly 100% neutral speaker that is 100% accepted as such by the majority of people on this planet.


Well, it is rather simple. Some speakers ARE better to reproduce the musical signal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Sure, many of us would like a more transparent speaker, but no speaker is perfect, at least not yet. And that's the only 100% factual statement we can make.


Yes, but I want the closest to perfect I can get. And many speakers do color the sound extremly much, and maybe someone likes that, but that is nothing for me.

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post #471 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

16 pages of the same lame arguement over and over. You would think he would be bored with it and realize we may just be different then he is?


Or maybe you could learn a thing or two. Many studies have showed that you are DEAD WRONG!

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post #472 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 06:19 PM
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So in answer to your original question NIN, is YES. I would like a neutral and correct speaker, but the problem is, is that it doesn't exist and if it did exist, what would be neutral and correct for me, may, and very likely will NOT, be neutral and correct for you.

And if you disagree with what I am saying, than please respond to my previous post.
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post #473 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 06:37 PM
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I think we're all supposed to bow down to the Ino Audio (or whatever they are) speakers that NIN has because nothing else is even close to being as neutral or accurate as his speakers. That's what he wants. He wants to know why we have crap and he has the best so why not feed his ego.
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post #474 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnickrand View Post

I think we're all supposed to bow down to the Ino Audio (or whatever they are) speakers that NIN has because nothing else is even close to being as neutral or accurate as his speakers. That's what he wants. He wants to know why we have crap and he has the best so why not feed his ego.

I thought he liked the Guru QM-10 more?
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post #475 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 07:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnickrand View Post

I think we're all supposed to bow down to the Ino Audio (or whatever they are) speakers that NIN has because nothing else is even close to being as neutral or accurate as his speakers. That's what he wants. He wants to know why we have crap and he has the best so why not feed his ego.

All neutrality is likely lost when using the Denon as a processor.
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post #476 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 07:41 PM
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Look, we all know you're trying to sell something. Just tell us what it is and go away.
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post #477 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 07:49 PM
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So, boys and girls, i think NIN wins big time here, no one can argue successfully with him, bow down and obey, is his thread anyway. NIN congrats, you are the most neutral and correct speaker,err, poster in these forums.
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post #478 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 07:51 PM
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The problem with most trying to define 'accurate' or 'correct' is they're only looking at certain pieces of the puzzle ... or only in two dimensions. You also have to look at measurements in not only freq and amplitute, but in the time domain as well. And you have to measure in the time domain across the vertical and horizontal plane. Time domain also has to include phase of individual drivers, and how they sum.

There are so many things to look at, the bottom line is there's no consensus on what accurate or correct is. We designers have some pretty good ideas on how to get close, but the missing part is recreating all the spatial and time elements that a REAL performance has.

And YES, I most certainly want that in a speaker. It's what I strive every day to recreate in my designs.

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post #479 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post



You want something different then go buy it but this has to be one of the dumbest circular discussion going on here

You mean Circle-Jerk.

what you do in the privacy of your own listening room is your business.

But on a more Serious notes almost everybody is going to prefer one speaker over another for whatever reason weheather it is Neutral and correct or not.

One shall stand... One Shall Fall... - Optimus Prime
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post #480 of 511 Old 07-06-2008, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

I see you don't understand this simple things and instead behave like a 10 year old boy. Very unserious.







Where did I do that?





Well, maybe you like distortion and crappy sound, not my problem.







You maybe should learn to read? I did ASK a question.






Studies show that we are not so different at all. So please, check things out before making stuff up.






Yes, I understand you like distortion and bad sound.







And I don't care about it either, I just asked a question. If it was to hard to read, you maybe should get someone to read it for you?






"Good sound" is whatever. Good reproduction of the music signal, is another thing. That is what high fidelity is about. Maybe you are not interested in that but others are.






No, dumb is not understanding the simple fact I have pointed out. Maybe mommy can help you?



OMFG What a Prick! Grow up... If you would like, I could paypal you a quarter so you can buy a life...?

He who dies with the most toys wins.
Just make sure your toys are over 18.


System 1: Harman Kardon AVR-745, AV123 X-Statik, X-Voce, X-LS, MFW-15
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