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post #181 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Can we first agree to stop all namecalling and try to have a good discussion?

I agree with you on many things but I have a concern about the soundstage. Large soundstage are, according to me, not something that point out a neutral speaker. Yes, if the speakers have a large soundstage on recordings that have a large soundstage, but if the speakers are artificial creating a large soundstage, I would not call them neutral. Some speakers even give a large soundstage on mono recordings!

I also prefer rather flat FR so I don't feel that some frequency are not reproducing the music correct.

Yes, I am in agreement about not arguing anymore.

When I was speaking of a large soundstage, I didn't mean to imply that a large sound stage goes hand in hand with a neutral speaker. Remember, I said I'd rather have all of that stuff rather than a speaker with a "ruler flat FR." The ability to create a large 3-dimensional soundstage/have great horizontal and vertical dispersion is more important to me than a "ruler flat FR." I obviously don't want dips and peaks of more than 3dB, but you get what I mean. What I really want is what has been stated by others: a speaker that simply conveys what is on the recording without adding any color. In other words, as transparent as possible

Thanks for the measurements, Curtis. So there you have it; not "ruler flat" but still VERY enjoyable to my ears. And to me, that's all that matter.


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post #182 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by remodeler View Post

Nin what do you mean by accurate in reference to video? If you mean things sounding as real as possible then that just doesn't happen. The example I see most used is gunfire. I've heard guns from up close. You do not want to reproduce that in a room even if you could. As for the audio sounding just like the sound engineer intended, My Klipsch get close enough for me. Cars sound like cars and trains sound like trains that is all I care about. If you meant accurate reproduction of surround material then yes I do fuss with that.


No, I wonder if you don't care if the projector is set-up and calibrated right?

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post #183 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I am saying that is part of the reason....but certainly not the only reason. Only going by what Jim and Dennis say since we have not seen a third party measurement of the Songtower...but I trust them as well as others, such as yourself, that have them or have heard them. Someone local to my office has offered me a listen...and I hope to do so.

The FR on the Sierras is relatively flat as well. Not as flat as the classic CBM-170 (but I also understand that the NRC may have changed their measuring technique since the 170 measurements).



http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/mea...scend_sierra1/


Curtis...

I am surprised that the Sierra's FR is not as flat as the CM-170's, as the cabinet on the CM-170s is less inert then the Sierra's, (correct me if I am wrong) with cabinet resonance which to me would add to coloration. Please Curtis take no offense, I have heard the Sierra's here at my house in the GTG we had, and I think they are Phenenomal, extremely good performers at their price range, I would be proud to own a pair.


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post #184 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefano-M View Post

Alegria Audio Emmas. Company, such that it was, is out of business. Solid speakers though IMO (obviously, I suppose).

The pics man! Where are the pics?

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I have Ino audio i32s and Ino audio ProfundusY-2 (will soon have ProfundusY-4).

Never heard of them. Where are the pics man!? The pics!

Hmm...I feel like I've said that before.
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I am saying that is part of the reason....but certainly not the only reason. Only going by what Jim and Dennis say since we have not seen a third party measurement of the Songtower...but I trust them as well as others, such as yourself, that have them or have heard them. Someone local to my office has offered me a listen...and I hope to do so.

Gotcha - cool. Well, I respect your opinion very much, so I am looking forward to your impressions. Please post them in my thread or the Salk owner's thread if you do in fact get a listen, whether your impressions are good or bad. Thanks!


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post #185 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 04:22 PM
 
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An older shot before I upgraded the TV, and one after the TV was upgraded, and the subwoofer received woofer on woofer technology...
LL
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post #186 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Curtis...

I am surprised that the Sierra's FR is not as flat as the CM-170's, as the cabinet on the CM-170s is less inert then the Sierra's, (correct me if I am wrong) with cabinet resonance which to me would add to coloration. Please Curtis take no offense, I have heard the Sierra's here at my house in the GTG we had, and I think they are Phenenomal, extremely good performers at their price range, I would be proud to own a pair.

No offense taken at all. Simply, there are other factors besides that FR....and I think, as far as the Sierras go, the crossover, cabinet, and symmetrical off-axis response all contribute......although I really don't know what the secret sauce is. I'd like to see third party vertical off-axis measurements though.

Here are Ascend's measurements:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages.../srm1meas.html

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post #187 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Gotcha - cool. Well, I respect your opinion very much, so I am looking forward to your impressions. Please post them in my thread or the Salk owner's thread if you do in fact get a listen, whether your impressions are good or bad. Thanks!

With what everyone says about them, I can't imagine my impressions being bad. I will get to hear them.....just have to make the time.

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post #188 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 04:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

No offense taken at all. Simply, there are other factors besides that FR....and I think, as far as the Sierras go, the crossover, cabinet, and symmetrical off-axis response all contribute......although I really don't know what the secret sauce is. I'd like to see third party vertical off-axis measurements though.

Here are Ascend's measurements:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages.../srm1meas.html

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post #189 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 04:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

With what everyone says about them, I can't imagine my impressions being bad. I will get to hear them.....just have to make the time.

I thought they were pretty good, for whatever thats worth. That and three bucks ought to be able to get you a cup of coffee.
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post #190 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefano-M View Post

I thought they were pretty good, for whatever thats worth. That and three bucks ought to be able to get you a cup of coffee.

LOL! I should have added people that I know and have heard at least a few speakers that I have heard as well.

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post #191 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefano-M View Post

An older shot before I upgraded the TV, and one after the TV was upgraded, and the subwoofer received woofer on woofer technology...

Cool - thanks! The traditional boxy look may not appeal to some, but I've always had a soft spot for it. They look good next to the TV upgrade.

So did the company get bought out, or did they just close shop? I'd like to hear a pair of those some time.
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With what everyone says about them, I can't imagine my impressions being bad. I will get to hear them.....just have to make the time.

You'd be surprised. I don't mean that I think you'll dislike them, but there is just no perfect speaker, so someone is bound to eventually not like them.
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I thought they were pretty good, for whatever thats worth. That and three bucks ought to be able to get you a cup of coffee.

LOL...I think? Hmm...I think that one went over my head a little. It's past my bedtime.

So did you actually hear them? Oh wait...now I get it. That was your two cents, and then add three bucks...coffee...DUH! Wow, I need to get some sleep. Seriously though, what were your thought of them? I always like to read about other opinions.


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post #192 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

You'd be surprised. I don't mean that I think you'll dislike them, but there is just no perfect speaker, so someone is bound to eventually not like them.

True...but knowing people that like the same thing that I like, and them liking the Songtower......I'm pretty sure it will not be me not liking them.

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post #193 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by quadriverfalls View Post

Anyway, what the ruler flat FR graph people fail to realize.... is that their hearing acuity is FAR from ruler flat. In fact, I'd bet you would be VERY hard pressed to find anyone with ruler flat hearing acuity, let alone very close.


Politely: Your logic seems to be a bit off... Regardless of what my 'FR' hearing is, shouldn't a 'flat' speaker better (no 'room discussions) produce at home what I heard live? IE: My hearing is what it is... Home, live or otherwise.


I will agree that flat FR (speaker integration w/ room) is a component of accurate music playback.



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post #194 of 511 Old 06-17-2008, 10:41 PM
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I really don't know what the secret sauce is.

I do. Dave gave me a diagram.
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post #195 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 04:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Cool - thanks! The traditional boxy look may not appeal to some, but I've always had a soft spot for it. They look good next to the TV upgrade.

So did the company get bought out, or did they just close shop? I'd like to hear a pair of those some time.

The company closed shop. It should be noted that the company was more of a one man show.

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LOL...I think? Hmm...I think that one went over my head a little. It's past my bedtime.

So did you actually hear them? Oh wait...now I get it. That was your two cents, and then add three bucks...coffee...DUH! Wow, I need to get some sleep. Seriously though, what were your thought of them? I always like to read about other opinions.

I did actually have a chance to listen to them with a reasonable variety of material. I thought they were very, very good; I certainly couldn't find any real flaws with their presentation. As compared with my speakers, I'd say the SongTowers are more detailed and a bit more dynamic; not enough to get me to have a big urge to upgrade, but definitely enough to get me to take notice.
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post #196 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Never heard of them. Where are the pics man!? The pics!

I have some pics from when I got them. I have now moved them to a better place, but you can at least see the system (top that do 80Hz and up, and bassspeaker that do 80Hz and below)









If you have heard the little speaker Guru QM10, you have listen to some of the qualitys this speakers have.

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post #197 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 06:01 AM
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I like the "diffraction ledge" under the tweeter.

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post #198 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 06:31 AM
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I like the "diffraction ledge" under the tweeter.

read my thoughts. Too bad, looks like a nice speaker. Interesting way of dealing with time alignment. Not even a strip of felt to try and stop diffraction...
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post #199 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

True...but knowing people that like the same thing that I like, and them liking the Songtower......I'm pretty sure it will not be me not liking them.

Oh...gotcha. Sorry; I was half asleep while typing last night. I understand now.
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The company closed shop. It should be noted that the company was more of a one man show.

I see. It's too bad they closed; I am a fan of the "little" guys. They just seem to actually care more about their customers and are really passionate about what they do. That's not to say bigger companies aren't, but you get the idea.



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I did actually have a chance to listen to them with a reasonable variety of material. I thought they were very, very good; I certainly couldn't find any real flaws with their presentation. As compared with my speakers, I'd say the SongTowers are more detailed and a bit more dynamic; not enough to get me to have a big urge to upgrade, but definitely enough to get me to take notice.

We seem to have similar tastes, which is another reason I wish I could hear those Emma's. Oh well; tis not meant to be.

So how would you describe the sound? And how is the crossover integration from the mid woofer to the tweeter?

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I like the "diffraction ledge" under the tweeter.

yeah - I was wondering why there was an edge there. I assume the front baffle is staggered the way it is to help with time and phase accuracy?

NIN - those are some crazy looking speakers, but it's about how they sound that matters. Do you have any measurements or links to "professional" reviews? The design is both intriguing and confusing IMO. What country is the company based out of?

You said you spoke Swedish, right NIN? So do you like In Flames (especially their older stuff)?


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post #200 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Well the threads title say it all. Are you looking for speakers that are correct and neutral? If not, why and what are you looking for?

LOL, no, I want incorrect sound and speakers on the positive side
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post #201 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 07:35 AM
 
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I see. It's too bad they closed; I am a fan of the "little" guys. They just seem to actually care more about their customers and are really passionate about what they do. That's not to say bigger companies aren't, but you get the idea.

This was certainly the case in Alegria Audio's case. I'm not even sure that he was trying to be profitable, just doing it for the love of the hobby.

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So how would you describe the sound? And how is the crossover integration from the mid woofer to the tweeter?

The sound obviously has its pros and cons.

Imaging and soundstaging are top notch. Even in my stereo configuration, it is easy to get immersed in the sound, and they image well beyond the edge of the speakers. It certainly impresses my significant other at least.

Detail is perhaps a bit veiled as compared with the best I've heard, particularly as compared with the SongTowers. Emma however certainly isn't bad in this regard, just average for its price.

Another flaw is that Emma does lack a bit of slam/dynamics when used on its own, which is a side effect of its design goals (medium bookshelf designed to extend down to 35Hz). Ultimately I paired it with a subwoofer to at least mitigate that problem to some degree.

Ultimately what won me over with Emma was her ability to render voices and the instruments I know, and project them into the room. Few if any other speakers I've listened to can do it quite as well. There's just a palpability to it that's hard to describe in any other way other than the cliche that you can swear the performer is in the room with you.

As far as integration goes, sound wise it is excellent. From a technical standpoint, I understand that may have been at least some part of the revision to Mk2 (which is what I own), and Dave from Ascend may have had some part in helping with that. I know the XO was lowered, although I'm not entirely sure why. From what I've seen on the specs of the two drivers, they're well within their operating range at both points, although there is certainly more to it than that.
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post #202 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefano-M View Post

This was certainly the case in Alegria Audio's case. I'm not even sure that he was trying to be profitable, just doing it for the love of the hobby.

You gotta love those guys! I feel bad that he went under. Does he still work somewhere else in the industry?



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Originally Posted by Stefano-M View Post

The sound obviously has its pros and cons.

Imaging and soundstaging are top notch. Even in my stereo configuration, it is easy to get immersed in the sound, and they image well beyond the edge of the speakers. It certainly impresses my significant other at least.

Detail is perhaps a bit veiled as compared with the best I've heard, particularly as compared with the SongTowers. Emma however certainly isn't bad in this regard, just average for its price.

Another flaw is that Emma does lack a bit of slam/dynamics when used on its own, which is a side effect of its design goals (medium bookshelf designed to extend down to 35Hz). Ultimately I paired it with a subwoofer to at least mitigate that problem to some degree.

Ultimately what won me over with Emma was her ability to render voices and the instruments I know, and project them into the room. Few if any other speakers I've listened to can do it quite as well. There's just a palpability to it that's hard to describe in any other way other than the cliche that you can swear the performer is in the room with you.

As far as integration goes, sound wise it is excellent. From a technical standpoint, I understand that may have been at least some part of the revision to Mk2 (which is what I own), and Dave from Ascend may have had some part in helping with that. I know the XO was lowered, although I'm not entirely sure why. From what I've seen on the specs of the two drivers, they're well within their operating range at both points, although there is certainly more to it than that.

The Emma's sure do sound impressive. They seem to have almost all of the qualities I look for in a speaker, especially the accuracy of the vocals and instrument reproduction. It seems that many people these days have gotten so used to the artificialness of the utter crap out there, that they don't even care for a proper midrange reproduction anymore. They think it's "too forward and detailed." What a shame...

As far as bass response, I couldn't care less with a bookshelf/monitor speaker. That's what subwoofers are for. All I'm looking forward is the ability to properly blend with said subwoofer.

So Dave from Ascend had a hand in the design of the MK2's? Did he help with the crossover? I assume this was before Dave started Ascend Acoustics?

All in all is sounds like the Emma's bring the emotional happiness that we're all looking for; sound like you've got a keeper.

Just out of curiosity, how much did they retail for?


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post #203 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

So Dave from Ascend had a hand in the design of the MK2's? Did he help with the crossover? I assume this was before Dave started Ascend Acoustics?

I think it is was in the last year or two....well after Dave started Ascend Acoustics. I think Ascend is about 8 years old now.

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post #204 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 09:06 AM
 
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You gotta love those guys! I feel bad that he went under. Does he still work somewhere else in the industry?

He still does it as a hobby to my knowledge, and makes some DIY designs.

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So Dave from Ascend had a hand in the design of the MK2's? Did he help with the crossover? I assume this was before Dave started Ascend Acoustics?

I'm not sure to what extent he helped Tim, but I understand there was some interaction. This was after Ascend, about two years ago.


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All in all is sounds like the Emma's bring the emotional happiness that we're all looking for; sound like you've got a keeper.

Very true.


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Just out of curiosity, how much did they retail for?

$699; I got B-stock for ~500.
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post #205 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 10:11 AM
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$699; I got B-stock for ~500.

That's an amazing price for audio nirvana. It would figure that he went out of business.

Kudos to you, Stefano-M.


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post #206 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 10:35 AM
 
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Unfortunately, I'm not shocked that he couldn't afford to keep that up. The drivers alone retail for $300. Combine that with solid, well braced cabinets veneered in real wood and made in the USA, and good quality XO components, and I can see how he took a loss.
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post #207 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 11:24 AM
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Unfortunately, I'm not shocked that he couldn't afford to keep that up. The drivers alone retail for $300. Combine that with solid, well braced cabinets veneered in real wood and made in the USA, and good quality XO components, and I can see how he took a loss.

That makes it real tough, especially if he was buying parts off the shelf and not in quantity.

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Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.

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post #208 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 11:29 AM
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Unfortunately, I'm not shocked that he couldn't afford to keep that up. The drivers alone retail for $300. Combine that with solid, well braced cabinets veneered in real wood and made in the USA, and good quality XO components, and I can see how he took a loss.

Yup - That'll do it. Bummer...


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post #209 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 11:46 AM
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Yeah, you lose a little on each one but you make it up in volume.
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post #210 of 511 Old 06-18-2008, 12:02 PM
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No, I wonder if you don't care if the projector is set-up and calibrated right?

I don't have a projector. I do have a Dlp and I did as much calibration as I could using Avia.
It could probably be better if I hired a pro but for me it's excellent. Skin tones look natural and clarity is top notch.
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