JTR Triple 12LF Review - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 151 Old 09-02-2008, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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For me, the most important component in HT sound is the center channel. Dialogue clarity and overall intelligibility are essential. This is how, budget be damned, I ended up with the massive Aerial Acoustics CC5 center channel. I built my entire system around that and paired the Aerial system with Halcro electronics (SSP200/MC50/MC20) and eventually McIntosh amps (MC501's). Prior to the Aerial, I had a full Revel Performa setup. Needless to say, I was underwhelmed with the center speaker, the C52.

I was perfectly happy with the Aerial system, but life intervened and I had to sell everything. In meantime, I picked up a Klipsch THX Ultra 2 system and a Wyred 4 Sound multi-channel amp to tide me over. Oh, and a Danley DTS-20 subwoofer, a "downgrade" compared to the cost of the Aerials and JL stuff, which turned out to be a major upgrade in terms of sound fidelity and output. You can read about my experiences with the Danley here. The problem was that even though the Klipsch's are horns, they simply could not keep up with the Danley. The sound felt imbalanced. I was so impressed with the Danley that I figured, what the hell, why not jump in all the way with the "pro audio" stuff.

Enter the JTR Triple 12LF. It measures 40"H x 16.5"W x 16.5"D and weighs 125lb (that's solid birch, not MDF). 4ohm, 100db sensitivity, 130db usable output, +-3dB 50hz-18khz.

My system: Wyred 4 Sound 500x3 / 250x4 (1225W into 4ohm for LCR), Integra DTC 9.8, Shunyata Hydra 8 with Anaconda Helix, PS3 bluray, XA2 HDDVD.



The first thing I noticed was the huge sound stage -- BIG SOUND. The second thing was PUNCH, and I'm talking mid-bass punch. My top end is now on par with the Danley's low end tumult. And the third: huge, mindblowing DYNAMICS.

Right away, I could sense the effortless nature of the sound, and its utter and total immediacy -- the sound felt so present and live that I briefly forgot I was listening to speakers. The sound envelops you, and the walls in the room melt away -- the Triple 12LF's make my room feel much bigger than it is (5000 cu sq ft). Yet the staging is noticeably more precise and distinctive than the Aerials. Want to feel someone whispering into your ear? No sweat with the Triple 12LF's -- the soundstage is uncannily realistic.

The Triple 12LF is by far the best center channel I've ever heard, surpassing the venerable CC5. The limitations of the CC5 (efficiency, dyanmic headroom) are no problem here. Dialog is crystal clear and neutral even when accompanied with percussion.

How about music? I am 99% movies and I have a different system for music, so I wasn't expecting anything from the JTR's. I was pleasantly surprised by what I found. Maybe I shouldn't have been, since these were probably designed for music reproduction with concert hall-like dynamics. Jazz sounded so live that I got up and started dancing. From classical to techno, the Triple 12LF's excelled: every instrument and voice had authority and distinction. They energize the room in an incredible way. The music is lifelike and electrifying. Organ music made my hair stand up on end. "The Poem of Chinese Drums", a purely percussion piece of acoustic overload from the Burmester Reference CD III, stomped with fantastic dynamism and clarity on the Triple 12LF's crossed over with the Danley at 60hz. No sweat. I have listened to this piece on everything from JM Lab Grande Utopias to Wilson X2's and the JTR/Danley combo vanquishes them all. It literally left my gut reeling. Power, dynamics, visceral impact, detail -- it's all there in spades.

The downside? They say it's in the eye of the beholder, but you might call the JTR's ugly. They are no frills, finished with truck bed liner. If you want your speakers to look like a work of art, these are not for you.

This past weekend, a friend with a $100k Wilson setup came over for a demo. He was floored by their performance and will soon be joining the JTR club.

They cannot be beaten for price/performance. In all my years as an audiophile, I'd say they're tough to beat for performance, period.

Bravo to Jeff Permanian and Mark Seaton! Job well done.
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post #2 of 151 Old 09-02-2008, 08:52 PM
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Good review glad that you love them.
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post #3 of 151 Old 09-02-2008, 09:04 PM
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Nice writeup. I had a feeling you would like them. I had another person ask me if they were good for music(triple 8's) and I told him that is what they were designed for, home theater was just secondary but the best I heard.
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post #4 of 151 Old 09-03-2008, 01:03 AM
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Told you you would like them! Triple 8's are nearly as good if you have a sub which has substantially clean output up into the 80 hz range.

Yes, I'm taking orders on them...3 week lead time as of now folks but I suspect that is going to be going up!

Also, if anybody needs them to be a floorstanding speaker...Jeff can make you custom stands which match up exactly with the Triple 12 or Triple 8.
Finish wise...custom pretty finishes are available...just be prepared to wait and pay more. Full length grilles are available on any Triple 12 or Triple 8.
Or just enjoy the manly man truck bed finish (YEE HA!).

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post #5 of 151 Old 09-03-2008, 06:47 AM
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So I guess you are really feeling lucky not to have bought the Legacy Audio Focus Maquis HD or something like that.

See? I told you so.... And the good thing is, there are more / better stuff to explore.
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post #6 of 151 Old 09-03-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

Bravo to Jeff Permanian and Mark Seaton! Job well done.

A humble thank you for the praise in relation to some very worthy and credible offerings in the market. The Triple12LFs do still need a subwoofer, but with a good one, they are an absolute steal for the performance and robust build (I keep telling Jeff he needs to raise the prices ).

The T12LF makes for a very obvious point of comparison with its much greater sensitivity and dynamic linearity as compared to more common home audio options (even very expensive ones). Combine those dynamics with a smooth overall power response without any major gyrations as you move around the speaker, and you have a speaker conceived as an easy to use and great sounding pro audio speaker which will work very well as a powerful home theater LCR. As you appear to have found, the subjective benefits are not just at ear-bleed levels, but at low levels as well.

Do enjoy, and be sure to experiment with what running Audyssey in your processor might add to the mix.

Mark Seaton
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post #7 of 151 Old 09-03-2008, 01:20 PM
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Am I clueless?

I understand the dual 12" woofers. But, a 12" mid ... isn't that too big? Also, is there a tweeter?
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post #8 of 151 Old 09-03-2008, 01:53 PM
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Quote:


I understand the dual 12" woofers. But, a 12" mid ... isn't that too big? Also, is there a tweeter?

Never!! for true SQ/SPL/low distortion you need big drivers....comercial guys have it all wrong these days with crappy little 6 1/2" drivers with sensitivity ratings below 90, etc.

where is the tweeter??

These are probably coaxial fitted with a 1” compression driver!!

For about $1K a speaker....they can be the best purchase someone has made for their HT room....ugly yes!!! Hide them behind the false screen wall.

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post #9 of 151 Old 09-03-2008, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceblrc View Post

Am I clueless?

I understand the dual 12" woofers. But, a 12" mid ... isn't that too big? Also, is there a tweeter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Never!! for true SQ/SPL/low distortion you need big drivers....comercial guys have it all wrong these days with crappy little 6 1/2" drivers with sensitivity ratings below 90, etc.

where is the tweeter??

These are probably coaxial fitted with a 1” compression driver!!

For about $1K a speaker....they can be the best purchase someone has made for their HT room....ugly yes!!! Hide them behind the false screen wall.

The Triple12LF's do use a coaxial midrange. The dust-cap on the coax' is a rigid cloth, allowing high frequencies to come through the center of the 12" cone. Larger diameter drivers have two major hurdles in crossing to a tweeter. The first is placement, as the size typically requires large spacing between the mid and tweeter, which makes smooth off axis response difficult. The other problem is high frequency extension. Some 10-15" drivers are well behaved past 3kHz, but that would be the exception rather than the norm, so you need a tweeter capable of crossing lower than most.

The coaxial design entirely gets around the issue of spacing, as the concentric location of the tweeter is as ideal as it gets so far as spacing. This sort of coaxial design has the tweeter enter through the pole piece of the midrange driver. The metal is shaped to mate with the profile of the cone. The cone then serves as a shallow waveguide/horn/lens for the tweeter. A 1" exit compression driver can be very powerful when on a larger diameter waveguide. The 1-3kHz range is in fact the most powerful for such drivers mounted to a coaxial driver like this. This allows a crossover below 2kHz where we get good integration both on and off axis.

The 12" coaxial driver is used such that it won't produce much output below 200-250Hz. This range is very easy for the 12" cone to produce, and up to very high levels, the midrange motor always stays linear, even with big bass events which are handled by the woofers, keeping dialog and other midrange details clear.

I believe the pricing on the Triple 12LFs are a serious value at $1499 each. Jeff or others can correct if the price is in error.

Mark Seaton
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post #10 of 151 Old 09-03-2008, 02:58 PM
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It is a coaxial design with a 1 inch compression driver. Don't be fooled from all the myths out there about driver size and such. There was a guy on here trying to say that 8 inch mids are too big as well with the triple 8's. I would listen before discrediting anything.
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post #11 of 151 Old 09-03-2008, 05:23 PM
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Very nice review there.

Have you tried running them LARGE at all? I am curious about your subjective thoughts on the LF's performance from 40hz-120hz. The LF's are supposed to be pretty robust in this region. Sure would like to know how much slam there is from these without the DTS-20 helping out.

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post #12 of 151 Old 09-03-2008, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Very nice review there.

Have you tried running them LARGE at all? I am curious about your subjective thoughts on the LF's performance from 40hz-120hz. The LF's are supposed to be pretty robust in this region. Sure would like to know how much slam there is from these without the DTS-20 helping out.

The LF version has much more capability below 100Hz with it's higher excursion, 4" VC woofers which employ a copper shorting ring in the motor. They don't need to lean as heavily on the subwoofer as the normal Triple12s, but they are still intended to be used with a subwoofer. Remember that for their size they are quite efficient with lots of headroom. The higher roll off is part of what allows for the high sensitivity and huge dynamic capabilities. Considering that any home theater considering these speakers would have a capable subwoofer, extension below 40-50Hz is mostly a waste anyway, as I would rarely recommend using a crossover for the LCR lower than 60Hz.

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post #13 of 151 Old 09-03-2008, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post


I believe the pricing on the Triple 12LFs are a serious value at $1499 each. Jeff or others can correct if the price is in error.

You got it correct. I suspect Jeff may have no choice but to eventually raise the prices...but for now, jump on the JTR's while they are as low as they are. Also keep in mind, these are sold with Pro Speaker margins (read lousy!) so they are an even better deal than they may seem. If they had nice wood cabinets and came from a marquis consumer audio manufacturer, these would be an easy $4000 each with their sound quality and capabilities.
A 7.1 system with 3 Triple 12 LF's, 4 Slant 8 surrounds and a Danley DTS-20 sells for $9500. $8400 if you get the matching Captivator subwoofer which Mark designed and which is the sub the T-12LF's are designed to cross into. That isn't a small chunk of change but try to find ANY other speaker package with the type of impact, sound quality, pedigree and absolutely staggering output levels those systems are capable of. This is why I've been trumpeting them for months on end.

"Did you make 'em fine-ass-soundin' speakers over there what would sound gooder than hell comin' out of the back of my truck-boat-truck?"

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post #14 of 151 Old 09-04-2008, 06:27 PM
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much as I love 100db + trance I may have to trek down to Harleys House of Sound and take a listen to some JTRs, sometimes I think I push my present system a little hard.
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post #15 of 151 Old 09-04-2008, 06:35 PM
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Harleys House of Sound

They just finished touring WY with the Blind Dog Blues festival and frequently tour WY.

http://www.blinddogbluesfestivals.com/
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post #16 of 151 Old 09-09-2008, 01:43 PM
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I came to Jeff from a different angle then most here. I wanted and expected Hi Fi audio in the Pro Audio world. After going threw the best that JBL, EV, MEYERS, FBT, and EAW had to offer I found JTR. I sold all my rigs and started working with Jeff to take his ideas and technology and bend it to my will so to say. And the end result is a front of house rig that has every one from national touring metal bands all the way down to the most finiky jazz musicians standing and applauding and calling me back for work when ever there in town. And the smiles that are on there faces when they hear there monitor mix is priceless! One speaker trully can do it all if its built right. I have done a host of Installs as well. This has always been after a band has brought me and my small JTR rig into a club to do sound and the owner comes to me after wards and says, "That most cost a fortune to sound that great and be that small". After we run numbers I am usually asked to help them sell there existing rig LOL!!! This is how I became a dealer for him as well. Jeff will custom make me anything you can dream up. And has been a true friend when it comes to making any problems that might arise quickley disapear. Two or Three years from now I see JTR being a household name. A product we expect at a price we can afford!!
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post #17 of 151 Old 09-16-2008, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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As mentioned in the other JTR/Danley thread, I will be hosting an AVS HT demo for these T12LF's due to popular request. PM me for details!
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post #18 of 151 Old 09-17-2008, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

As mentioned in the other JTR/Danley thread, I will be hosting an AVS HT demo for these T12LF's due to popular request. PM me for details!

Hi fugeness,

I applaud you for opening your home to fellow enthusiasts. I'm sure many will be quite impressed with your assembled system. I'll contact you privately on the details, but could you post the possible dates which are set or under consideration? While time has been very tight this year, I could always use an excuse to visit N.CA.

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post #19 of 151 Old 09-20-2008, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Glad some of you could make it today! It was a blast, although watching the WOTW pod emerging scene 3 times was a bit much (due to everyone arriving at different times)! There will be another demo meet Sunday afternoon. PM if you would like to attend.
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post #20 of 151 Old 10-23-2008, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The LF version has much more capability below 100Hz with it's higher excursion, 4" VC woofers which employ a copper shorting ring in the motor. They don't need to lean as heavily on the subwoofer as the normal Triple12s, but they are still intended to be used with a subwoofer. Remember that for their size they are quite efficient with lots of headroom. The higher roll off is part of what allows for the high sensitivity and huge dynamic capabilities. Considering that any home theater considering these speakers would have a capable subwoofer, extension below 40-50Hz is mostly a waste anyway, as I would rarely recommend using a crossover for the LCR lower than 60Hz.

Just curious for the recommendation NOT to cross lower than 60hz?
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post #21 of 151 Old 10-23-2008, 05:39 PM
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These remind me of the Cerwin Vega CLS series, specifically the dual 15" model. Cool stuff. I'm a fan of the big drivers
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post #22 of 151 Old 10-26-2008, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Just curious for the recommendation NOT to cross lower than 60hz?

I only caught this question now, but to clarify, the issue is only partly a matter of main speaker capability, and more so a matter of delivering output to the listener or listeners. It is often much easier to smoothly deliver the 40-60Hz range from single or multiple subwoofers which are placed and EQ carefully. It is also rare for a speaker to have better dynamic behavior below 50Hz than any similarly scaled subwoofer solution. There are plenty of cases of exceptions, but they are not common, and I have found it quite rare to not find a crossover in the 60-100Hz range preferred, even with the largest of speakers.

Some have ideological practices which they cling to, but this is my experience based on real measurements and listening to the results. That doesn't mean you can't get great sound with a 40Hz crossover, but there may be even better performance to be had.

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post #23 of 151 Old 10-26-2008, 07:56 PM
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Like the OP, I was planning on upgrading my HT setup starting with the center channel. Since I wanted lots of dynamics, I was looking for a used Aerial CC3, and then get the others speakers as I can afford them. Lots of people mistaken dynamics with bass, but of course they are not the same thing at all.

However in Canada trying to find a used CC3 is like pulling teeth. Someone had suggested JTR so I went to their web-site, and I was lost. I couldn't figure out which were professional speakers meant for touring, and which for HT. Recommended amplification of 1,000W for the Triple 12? And at $1,299 that is about $1,600 Canadian before shipping, for one speaker. And it is ugly - there is simply no contest, the Aerials look good! But of course if I hear them, I may change my mind.

I was also considering the Cerwin Vega CLS series, since they are readily available in Canada, but I assume there is no comparison between that and the JTR?

Decisions, decisions ...
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post #24 of 151 Old 10-26-2008, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beta Tester View Post

And it is ugly - there is simply no contest, the Aerials look good!

Agreed, but once you get over that aesthetic hump, there's no looking back!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beta Tester View Post

I was also considering the Cerwin Vega CLS series, since they are readily available in Canada, but I assume there is no comparison between that and the JTR?

The CC5 blows away the CC3. The JTR T12LF blows away the venerable CC5. Any questions?
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post #25 of 151 Old 10-26-2008, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Beta Tester View Post

Someone had suggested JTR so I went to their web-site, and I was lost. I couldn't figure out which were professional speakers meant for touring, and which for HT. Recommended amplification of 1,000W for the Triple 12?

Sorry for the confusion. Touring (portable) speakers have handles and pole mounting hardware. The installation speakers would be what you would use in your home theater. JTR products are very efficient and do not require much power. The "Recommended Amplification" is a maximum.
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post #26 of 151 Old 10-26-2008, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

The CC5 blows away the CC3. The JTR T12LF blows away the venerable CC5. Any questions?

Thanks for the clarification. My room is small (12'W x 14'D), do you think that the Triple 8's would be good enough?


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Sorry for the confusion. Touring (portable) speakers have handles and pole mounting hardware. The installation speakers would be what you would use in your home theater. JTR products are very efficient and do not require much power. The "Recommended Amplification" is a maximum.

Thanks Jeff.
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post #27 of 151 Old 10-26-2008, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks for the clarification. My room is small (12'W x 14'D), do you think that the Triple 8's would be good enough?

Thanks Jeff.

At 12' x 14', the Triple 8 is definitely big enough to fill your room. Heck, it fills my room which is 23' x 38'! What the Triple 12LF brings to the game is deeper bass extension. The plain Triple 12 (not the LF version) has the same bass extension as the T-8 but has more output. In your room, that isn't a factor so your choices would be the Triple 8 or Triple 12LF.

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post #28 of 151 Old 10-27-2008, 12:07 AM
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By the way, for larger room and those who go with a Triple 12 LF setup up front...Jeff now has a speaker which is ideal as a surround for them in a very large space. The Triple 8M is a Triple 8 in a wedge shaped box, ideal for mounting at the ceiling, pointing down for surround use. If your room is too large or you need more output than the Slanted 8 can deliver, the Triple 8M is an ideal solution. Same price as the standard Triple 8 $899/pr. Also a very good speaker if you have a small space, can't do an AT Screen and need three speakers mounted across the front above the screen up high.
There IS also a Triple 12M but you'd need a REALLY big room to justify those as surrounds. Then again, there ARE some crazies around here!


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post #29 of 151 Old 10-27-2008, 09:02 AM
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Same price as the standard Triple 8 $899/pr.

Is the price of the regular Triple 8's $899 each or per pair?
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post #30 of 151 Old 10-27-2008, 10:06 AM
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Is the price of the regular Triple 8's $899 each or per pair?

I wish!

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