People who balk at spending money on speakers - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:23 AM
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The interesting thing though penngray is that everything you lay at bmw1fan's feet can also be applied to 4-5 people who are the only ones pushing the sacred word on DBT in nearly every thread about CD-DAC-amps

But, it does not help that two of you jumped on bmw1fan in this thread even though he was making general comments and was responding to someone else.

Just hoping this thread gets back online and all sides can let go for now.

Hey Chu, if prices did drop drastically in terms of price/performance ratio I wonder if it would end up being a self destruct cycle that would see the collapse of quite a few companies; a clear comparison is what happened to many computer firms once prices/performance started to drop dramatically.
I can name many companies that went under or were bought out and with an inevitable slowness still went under.

Cheers
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post #182 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:23 AM
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but I would be SHOCKED if the folks "opposing you" (assuming you are referring to the objectivist DBT ABX crowd) are mostly "Christian conservatives". That's typically not a very science-friendly crowd...


lol, I wasnt going to post anything that is so true btw. I simply moved from Canada to Florida and somehow I was labelled a liberal They ask me if Im a Democrat and I just say NO, Im Canadian

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post #183 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:26 AM
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The interesting thing though penngray is that everything you lay at bmw1fan's feet can also be applied to 4-5 people who are the only ones pushing the sacred word on DBT in nearly every thread about CD-DAC-amps

Wasn't involved with that thread.....lets create a thread to solve the listening mysterious! Im all for discussions

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Just hoping this thread gets back online and all sides can let go for now.

Its kind of a silly thread for the initial point but for general discussion lots of stuff flying around

Its originally a thread bitching about people who do not care to spend much money on speakers!! Those people do not go to online forums much and do not care about audio that much, this discussion and the conclusions have been over for a long, long time.

It then turn into another BOSE thread (yep, I started it when I posted BOSE), it will turn into a DBT arguement thread before long

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post #184 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

Typical response. You might want to learn how the ignore feature works. You're going on it as of now. And by the way, In my 8 years here I never have received even a warning from the mods. Zero, zilch, zip, nada.
Peace

Apparently, you just can't coexist with me on a thread.

...and my "warning" comment was not in reference to you, but the other person I quoted, so cool-down.
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post #185 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:27 AM
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anyway, back to the thread.... I think a lot of people are getting sidetracked from the main point of the thread, which is not "are $400 speakers good enough?" or "why do people try and bully newbies into spending too much money?"

to me, the OP was simply interested in understanding the psychological/sociological phenomenon that causes people to think it's normal to spend $1000 plus on a display, but is shocked by spending that much on speakers.

I think a couple posters hit on some good ideas:

1. the marketplace -- you simply CAN'T get a good, big-screen display for much under $1000, whereas with speakers you CAN walk into Circuit City and find a 5.1 setup for $500 or less.

2. human sensory perception -- visual information is given a huge cognitive priority over auditory information. anyone can see that a 50" plasma is much bigger and "blingier" than a 27" CRT, but it's a little more work to understand why a $2K speaker setup sounds better than a $400 HTIB.

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post #186 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Not to get into any discussion of faith at all, but I would be SHOCKED if the folks "opposing you" (assuming you are referring to the objectivist DBT ABX crowd) are mostly "Christian conservatives". That's typically not a very science-friendly crowd...

Agreed to tread lightly here. I find a similar tone between "this is a fact - it's been proven by a DBT", and "that's the way god wants it - it says so in the bible".
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post #187 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

anyway, back to the thread.... I think a lot of people are getting sidetracked from the main point of the thread, which is not "are $400 speakers good enough?" or "why do people try and bully newbies into spending too much money?"

to me, the OP was simply interested in understanding the psychological/sociological phenomenon that causes people to think it's normal to spend $1000 plus on a display, but is shocked by spending that much on speakers.

I think a couple posters hit on some good ideas:

1. the marketplace -- you simply CAN'T get a good, big-screen display for much under $1000, whereas with speakers you CAN walk into Circuit City and find a 5.1 setup for $500 or less.

2. human sensory perception -- visual information is given a huge cognitive priority over auditory information. anyone can see that a 50" plasma is much bigger and "blingier" than a 27" CRT, but it's a little more work to understand why a $2K speaker setup sounds better than a $400 HTIB.

Or it could be as simple as sound quality just isn't as important to some people as video quality is when it comes to HT and TV viewing.

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post #188 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:38 AM
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no offense intended, bmwf1fan, but I think what rubs people like penngray the wrong way is the way you mischaracterize the oppositions viewpoint in such absolute terms.

for example, I know of no credible "objectivist" who would agree with the statement that "all electronics sound the same", nor would I ever hear them say "this is a fact - it's been proven by a DBT." only when you caricature their viewpoint as such does it gain any similarity at all to a fundamentalist doctrine.

when you so distort and parody the viewpoint of those attempting to argue with you, it's going to cause friction. I think most of the folks who "oppose you" are simply trying to maintain objectivity and remove the vast biases inherent to human perception, since there really is so much "snake oil" out there. it is definitely a shame that the inability to maintain an adult discussion (on both sides) derails so many threads.

but, anyway, WAAAAYYYY off topic... sorry.....

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post #189 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

2. human sensory perception -- visual information is given a huge cognitive priority over auditory information. anyone can see that a 50" plasma is much bigger and "blingier" than a 27" CRT, but it's a little more work to understand why a $2K speaker setup sounds better than a $400 HTIB.

Not to mention that people WANT that big-screen to be seen in the room (at least while watching it), while most people (except audio enthusiasts) don't want to see the audio equipment, especially a big-ass pair of speakers.
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post #190 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

Or it could be as simple as sound quality just isn't as important to some people as video quality is when it comes to HT and TV viewing.

true, that goes to point 2 about how visual information is so much more prominent in human cognition...

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post #191 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:44 AM
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2. human sensory perception -- visual information is given a huge cognitive priority over auditory information. anyone can see that a 50" plasma is much bigger and "blingier" than a 27" CRT, but it's a little more work to understand why a $2K speaker setup sounds better than a $400 HTIB.


Not only that but people actually use the Plasma speakers and do not even have a AVR, HTIB and so on.

Speakers are only important for those who want to make them important. We should not assume they are important for anyone else.

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while most people (except audio enthusiasts) don't want to see the audio equipment, especially a big-ass pair of speakers.

Actually Im an audio enthusiasts that thinks speakers, electronics equipment should be heard not seen. A room with just a display and great sound without any distractions is the best design out there. If we look at properly designed Home Theater rooms we see one thing, a beatiful and large picture...no speakers are seen but boy can we hear a great sound.

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post #192 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

no offense intended, bmwf1fan, but I think what rubs people like penngray the wrong way is the way you mischaracterize the oppositions viewpoint in such absolute terms.

for example, I know of no credible "objectivist" who would agree with the statement that "all electronics sound the same", nor would I ever hear them say "this is a fact - it's been proven by a DBT." only when you caricature their viewpoint as such does it gain any similarity at all to a fundamentalist doctrine.

when you so distort and parody the viewpoint of those attempting to argue with you, it's going to cause friction. I think most of the folks who "oppose you" are simply trying to maintain objectivity and remove the vast biases inherent to human perception, since there really is so much "snake oil" out there. it is definitely a shame that the inability to maintain an adult discussion (on both sides) derails so many threads.

but, anyway, WAAAAYYYY off topic... sorry.....

Sorry but this is way off considering I use to try to share technical knowledge and ended up suffering the distorted and parody from the DBT group, resulting in me no longer sharing info such as the historical account of CD by Dr Kees Immink who was one of the lead engineers on CD development, or any other information from now on that is sharable from the IEEE.

Anyway, back to my post that can be seen above about cost/performance ratio.

Cheers
DT
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post #193 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I know of no credible "objectivist" who would agree with the statement that "all electronics sound the same", nor would I ever hear them say "this is a fact - it's been proven by a DBT." only when you caricature their viewpoint as such does it gain any similarity at all to a fundamentalist doctrine.

That's the "short" version, I use it for brevity, and because everyone knows what is meant by it. The long version is:
Modern, competently-designed electronics, operated within their limits, will not produce any differences that will be audible in a DBT. And they go on to say that some high-end stuff is designed for a colored, euphonic sound, which may be audibly detectable.

I'm not trying to start anything here, I just wanted to clear things up, OK?
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post #194 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:58 AM
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cool, that's clear.

but I do think saying "the differences are not audible in a DBT scenario" is quite different than saying "it is proven that there is no difference." as a scientist you know these are different claims with different degrees of burden-of-proof. I think the idea is just to educate folks that, if you're going throw money at the problem, first do it on things that are readily audible (like speakers and acoustics).

anyway, back to the thread

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post #195 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bmwf1fan View Post

Not that it's of any consequence to you, but I'm a liberal democratic athiest of Jewish descent. It's my personal impression that many of those opposing me are Christian conservatives, not that it matters.

Few people oppose you more often or more strongly than I do, and I am a liberal atheist. Sorry to blow your whole theory!
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post #196 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

Sorry but this is way off considering I use to try to share technical knowledge and ended up suffering the distorted and parody from the DBT group, resulting in me no longer sharing info

I don't know what your experience is; I just encourage you to not conflate the viewpoint of the few "ABX bullies" who derail threads with the more reasoned and open-minded viewpoints of those who just like to throw in a little objective science in an effort to understand/reduce the influence of human perceptual biases.

If you judge any viewpoint by the most extreme and dogmatic representatives, you won't get far.

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post #197 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 12:04 PM
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post #198 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 12:08 PM
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I've always been perplexed by the juxtapostion of Christian & Conservative as well as Atheist or some similar position & Liberal. My personal feeling on politics is that they've all let us down - dems, repubs, liberals, conservatives, independents - and don't work very hard, aren't particularly bright, and are more concerned with getting re-elected. I find their general feeling of entitlement offensive. I am currently and have been of the position that none should be re-elected because a message needs to be sent that they do not belong to the House of Lords where their title automatically confers upon them a sickening malaise and longevity. So, if there's a dem in power, I'll vote for the rep. Vice versa. What I want to see are term limits. What I want to see is the gov't afraid of us. I'm a friggin' shareholder dammit! Won't you join me and vote the bums out? Even if you like him, vote the bum out. Let them get a real job.

OK, rant off. I was raised Catholic but I'm pretty much an atheist. I can not tell you what I'll feel when I suspect my time on this world is short. Nativities don't freak me out. I'm fairly conservative with much of my influence coming from Ayn Rand, Buckley, Huxley, Orwell, and the like. I'm into the concept of change but change to me means voting all the bums out at every political level. I like science. All kinds. I'm interested in what makes me and others tick. I'm interested in the underlying reasons why people do what they do or think what they think. I like blind tests. In this particular thread, I see no reason to bring it up.

As to why people balk on spending money? Really, who the hell knows? Some time back I saw what I think was a Bose system in one of Hef's rooms. Hef's got bucks but his priorities are obviously elsewhere. I could live with his priorities 'cept I'd probably get me an asian babe too.

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post #199 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

Or it could be as simple as sound quality just isn't as important to some people as video quality is when it comes to HT and TV viewing.

+1.

However, in some cases I think that they might in fact value audio highly, but are just not quite educated. Or, these are my varying impressions last night during my bout with a rare case of insomnia when browsing through AVS pics of PJ setups and screen wall shots.

Man, having an AT screen would be so cool. I could use a tower center. But a lot of folks with AT with beautiful dedicated setups are still using wall mounted speakers, maybe even inwalls, or horizontal speakers for all three fronts, or just the ubiquitous horizontal center. OK. Could be lack of education, or just what they had lying around. In some of these setups, I wouldn't doubt that the screen itself is worth more than all of the speakers in the room.

The really bad setups, hmm, I saw an enormous screen, with all three fronts, small little things, sitting on the floor. Man, Im already bummed my center sits on the floor, but at least sitting on a beefy acoustic panel, on top of rug, on top of carpet.

OTOH, I've seen old skool CRTs surrounded by some very fine speakers before.

Dunno. My 2 cents for now. Different strokes. But, I'd hope certain folks wouldn't begrudge me for spending more on audio than video.

 

 

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post #200 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I've always been perplexed by the juxtapostion of Christian & Conservative as well as Atheist or some similar position & Liberal. My personal feeling on politics is that they've all let us down - dems, repubs, liberals, conservatives, independents - and don't work very hard, aren't particularly bright, and are more concerned with getting re-elected. I find their general feeling of entitlement offensive. I am currently and have been of the position that none should be re-elected because a message needs to be sent that they do not belong to the House of Lords where their title automatically confers upon them a sickening malaise and longevity. So, if there's a dem in power, I'll vote for the rep. Vice versa. What I want to see are term limits. What I want to see is the gov't afraid of us. I'm a friggin' shareholder dammit! Won't you join me and vote the bums out? Even if you like him, vote the bum out. Let them get a real job.


Two words Chu... TERM LIMITS.

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post #201 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jostenmeat View Post

Dunno. My 2 cents for now. Different strokes. But, I'd hope certain folks wouldn't begrudge me for spending more on audio than video.


Hey, I'm right there with ya!

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post #202 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by HaroldTheBarrel View Post

Few people oppose you more often or more strongly than I do, and I am a liberal atheist. Sorry to blow your whole theory!

Actually, I would have bet money that you were a conservative, but not because of your opposition to me. It's your location of "the U S of A", which I took to be a flag-waving, love-it-or-leave-it gesture. But maybe I'm reading it wrong.
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post #203 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 12:44 PM
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Few people oppose you more often or more strongly than I do, and I am a liberal atheist.

+1, just think bmwf1fan, we are more like you then you think...hmmmm

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post #204 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 12:48 PM
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However, in some cases I think that they might in fact value audio highly, but are just not quite educated.


What if they are educated and just do not care about the last small percentage increase in sound quality?

I would bet that the $2100 package from AV123 would sound incredible for anyone and that is 5 speakers + 1 sub. Put that in a well designed room and you have a very sweet system.

Im not sure your post meant people have to spend $$$ to prove they are educated on speakers or not but I believe $500 a pair of speakers are not far from that $2K or $5K set of speakers (honestly most people do not care about the difference). I have done the tests across the board and people like me do not get excited over the difference so that extra money goes into something I will get excited about

Again, $$$ should never dictate performance, especially so in the audio/video world where our senses are tricked on a daily basis to believe the old mantra, "is worth that much so it has to be good....." sound familar

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post #205 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bmwf1fan View Post

Actually, I would have bet money that you were a conservative, but not because of your opposition to me. It's your location of "the U S of A", which I took to be a flag-waving, love-it-or-leave-it gesture. But maybe I'm reading it wrong.

See, an example of bias and how it influences our perception.

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post #206 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 01:00 PM
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See, an example of bias and how it influences our perception.

You just had to get that in there, huh?
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post #207 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

What if they are educated and just do not care about the last small percentage increase in sound quality?

I would bet that the $2100 package from AV123 would sound incredible for anyone and that is 5 speakers + 1 sub. Put that in a well designed room and you have a very sweet system.

Im not sure your post meant people have to spend $$$ to prove they are educated on speakers or not but I believe $500 a pair of speakers are not far from that $2K or $5K set of speakers (honestly most people do not care about the difference). I have done the tests across the board and people like me do not get excited over the difference so that extra money goes into something I will get excited about

Again, $$$ should never dictate performance, especially so in the audio/video world where our senses are tricked on a daily basis to believe the old mantra, "is worth that much so it has to be good....." sound familar

Uhhh. Are you educated? Hm. Maybe . . . you . . . Oh I am confused.

First of all, inwall/onwall speakers give you less bang for buck than towers/bookshelves. Well, would you agree? Now, they are desirable for looks, worth the compromise there for some, but its BEHIND AN AT SCREEN.

"specially designed" center speakers often cost more than the matching mains but yet with poorer performance. Horizontal compromise is needed for large TVs, but again, this is BEHIND AN AT SCREEN.

An upright center is the wtg, and even if its AV123, it does not cost you any more to make the center vertical.

Even if you want to use cheap tiny speakers, it does not cost you anymore (or barely anything) to NOT have all three cubes sitting on the floor.

My point, regarding that specific paragraph, was that for the exact same money spent could they have done much better. Even if sticking with the same brand. ?

 

 

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post #208 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I've always been perplexed by the juxtapostion of Christian & Conservative as well as Atheist or some similar position & Liberal. My personal feeling on politics is that they've all let us down - dems, repubs, liberals, conservatives, independents - and don't work very hard, aren't particularly bright, and are more concerned with getting re-elected. I find their general feeling of entitlement offensive. I am currently and have been of the position that none should be re-elected because a message needs to be sent that they do not belong to the House of Lords where their title automatically confers upon them a sickening malaise and longevity. So, if there's a dem in power, I'll vote for the rep. Vice versa. What I want to see are term limits. What I want to see is the gov't afraid of us. I'm a friggin' shareholder dammit! Won't you join me and vote the bums out? Even if you like him, vote the bum out. Let them get a real job.

OK, rant off. I was raised Catholic but I'm pretty much an atheist. I can not tell you what I'll feel when I suspect my time on this world is short. Nativities don't freak me out. I'm fairly conservative with much of my influence coming from Ayn Rand, Buckley, Huxley, Orwell, and the like. I'm into the concept of change but change to me means voting all the bums out at every political level. I like science. All kinds. I'm interested in what makes me and others tick. I'm interested in the underlying reasons why people do what they do or think what they think. I like blind tests. In this particular thread, I see no reason to bring it up.

As to why people balk on spending money? Really, who the hell knows? Some time back I saw what I think was a Bose system in one of Hef's rooms. Hef's got bucks but his priorities are obviously elsewhere. I could live with his priorities 'cept I'd probably get me an asian babe too.

sometimes i thank god that i'm an Atheist

All this noise about noise.
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Finding the acoustic sweet spot.
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post #209 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bmwf1fan View Post

You just had to get that in there, huh?

I really meant it in a light hearted way, BMW. Please, don't take any personal offence. BTW, I've always liked the way BMW frames their emblem.


"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #210 of 231 Old 09-19-2008, 01:32 PM
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Another important point that nobody's mentioned is the complexity issue. To go with good external speakers for an HT setup requires the whole shebang: HT receiver, audio/video switching, source routing, remotes, etc. That requires at least one household member who cares enough about the benefits to put up with all that - and to put up with the family complaining about how no one else can get it to work.

I have an 80-yr old uncle in Florida (yes, it's a law) who's a professor emeritus at a prestigious university, and he had a company come in and do an entire HT setup, with the smart remotes and all. He's always on the phone either with the company or my Father-in law, trying to figure out how to work it.

I think that the Bose market is a lot like the iPod market (not knocking the iPod). The ease of installation/use is more important to most people than the sound quality, especially since most people don't know what they're missing.
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