The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 137 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4081 of 4108 Old 04-30-2015, 05:13 PM
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You are comparing apples and oranges. The 20's tweeter is a floor-to-ceiling('ish) vertical stripe. The CCR's tweeter is a horizontal stripe and is curved. The CCR is optimized for horizontal dispersion befitting a center speaker so yes the vertical dispersion is very limited. That is the nature of a line source; it radiates directly forward but very little to the sides or off the ends. This means less room (side wall, floor, ceiling) interaction for the L/R speakers. However, the idea for the center is to cover a broader horizontal area for HT (which usually targets more than one viewer), so it "spreads out" horizontally but not vertically.

With any speaker you need to aim the tweeter at your ears but some are more directive than others. Yah, in this case you're going to have to get that center speaker aimed at you.

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post #4082 of 4108 Old 05-01-2015, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ALCOMData View Post
I've had the Maggie 20.1s for several years, and just "upgraded" my center channel to the Maggie CCR/CC Speaker Stand combo about 3 months ago.

Until yesterday, I've been driving the CCR/CC with the center output from the smaller of Anthem's two 5-channel amps. I've been driving the 20.1's with Wyred4Sound SX-1000 monoblocks, which deliver a clean 1,110+ watts at 4 ohms.

My problem has been the radical difference in pink noise between the 20.1s and the CCR/CC. I'd been planning to upgrade the center amp to a third SX-1000, and the pink noise problem hastened the upgrade.

There's still a major difference. I've mucked around with the tilt angle for the CCR, but there's no significant difference. I tried adding the 1 ohm resistor to the CCR, but all that did was reduce the high frequencies--the CHARACTER of the pink noise is still totally different.

The only other variable I'm aware of is the speaker cable. My entire system is balanced, and the LF RF 20.1s have one foot (yes, 1 foot) of Blu-Jeans speaker cable from the amps to the crossover. For the center, I'm still using the ~20 ft. Monster Cable, which is ~11 gauge. I'll be replacing that soon, but I can't imagine that that variable is enough to make the audible difference I hear.

Any suggestions?

Peter
I am not sure of your wiring but I have a possible solution. I was not totally satisfied with my CC5/DWM Combo until I tried this wiring scheme.

If you are wired using the "traditional" Magnepan method, that is: output of your amp's center channel into the CC, output of your CC into the input of your CCR, your amplifier is seeing a difficult load. That wiring method causes your amp to see a 2 ohm load. I have also been told, on this thread, that the overall frequency response (as revealed by REW curves) is lacking in upper base and lower mids when you are wired as such.

The alternate wiring scheme is as follows: Split the output of your processor's center channel and now feed the two center channels to the input of two separate amps. The output of amp #1 should feed your CCR and the output of amp#2 should feed your CC.

I am very, very, happy with the results of the alternate scheme. I now have REW and a calibrated mic and in due time I will test the 2 wiring schemes and see what the results are. My ears tell me the alternate scheme is more pleasing and a better match to my LR mains.

Good Luck and I hope you find a solution, sounds like you have an awesome system that just needs a good tweak!

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post #4083 of 4108 Old 05-01-2015, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by stustan View Post
I am not sure of your wiring but I have a possible solution. I was not totally satisfied with my CC5/DWM Combo until I tried this wiring scheme.

If you are wired using the "traditional" Magnepan method, that is: output of your amp's center channel into the CC, output of your CC into the input of your CCR, your amplifier is seeing a difficult load. That wiring method causes your amp to see a 2 ohm load. I have also been told, on this thread, that the overall frequency response (as revealed by REW curves) is lacking in upper base and lower mids when you are wired as such.

The alternate wiring scheme is as follows: Split the output of your processor's center channel and now feed the two center channels to the input of two separate amps. The output of amp #1 should feed your CCR and the output of amp#2 should feed your CC.

I am very, very, happy with the results of the alternate scheme. I now have REW and a calibrated mic and in due time I will test the 2 wiring schemes and see what the results are. My ears tell me the alternate scheme is more pleasing and a better match to my LR mains.

Good Luck and I hope you find a solution, sounds like you have an awesome system that just needs a good tweak!
Thanks!

I like where you're going with this, but. . .

I now have 8 channels of amplification--five from an Anthem MC amp and three monoblocks for the LCR.

I used to drive the center with the C output from the Anthem, but that's idling now since I got the third monoblock for the CCR.

Bottom line? I have an unused amp channel not, but both the gain and the horsepower are radically different from the monoblock.

Would bi wiring help? I have the Maggie 20.1s bi-wired, not because I think there's any magical mumbo jumbo effect from bi-wiring--it just lowers the resistance.

Peter

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post #4084 of 4108 Old 05-01-2015, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
You are comparing apples and oranges. The 20's tweeter is a floor-to-ceiling('ish) vertical stripe. The CCR's tweeter is a horizontal stripe and is curved. The CCR is optimized for horizontal dispersion befitting a center speaker so yes the vertical dispersion is very limited. That is the nature of a line source; it radiates directly forward but very little to the sides or off the ends. This means less room (side wall, floor, ceiling) interaction for the L/R speakers. However, the idea for the center is to cover a broader horizontal area for HT (which usually targets more than one viewer), so it "spreads out" horizontally but not vertically.

With any speaker you need to aim the tweeter at your ears but some are more directive than others. Yah, in this case you're going to have to get that center speaker aimed at you.
> in this case you're going to have to get that center speaker aimed at you.

That's the way I started--I had the installer adjust the tilt so the ribbon was aimed directly at my ears. The pink noise is MUCH closer to matching the 20.1s when I move my head up or down, but I don't know yet if I can tilt the CCR back far enough to accomplish that. I'll experiment with that this weekend.

Peter

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post #4085 of 4108 Old 05-01-2015, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ALCOMData View Post
Thanks!

I like where you're going with this, but. . .

I now have 8 channels of amplification--five from an Anthem MC amp and three monoblocks for the LCR.

I used to drive the center with the C output from the Anthem, but that's idling now since I got the third monoblock for the CCR.

Bottom line? I have an unused amp channel not, but both the gain and the horsepower are radically different from the monoblock.

Would bi wiring help? I have the Maggie 20.1s bi-wired, not because I think there's any magical mumbo jumbo effect from bi-wiring--it just lowers the resistance.

Peter
I am brain dead concerning bi-wiring .... I'll let others chime in with more experience. My gut feeling is that bi-wiring is not the solution.

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post #4086 of 4108 Old 05-01-2015, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by stustan View Post
I am brain dead concerning bi-wiring .... I'll let others chime in with more experience. My gut feeling is that bi-wiring is not the solution.
You could experiment: Two Mono-Blocks for your LR. Your 5 channel Anthem feeds your CCR, your CC, and your two surrounds leaving you a free channel in your Anthem and an used Mono-Block. I know that might sound like a pile of wasted gear and expense but that might afford you a chance to see if the alternate wiring scheme helps. Then you could go from there.

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post #4087 of 4108 Old 05-01-2015, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by stustan View Post
You could experiment: Two Mono-Blocks for your LR. Your 5 channel Anthem feeds your CCR, your CC, and your two surrounds leaving you a free channel in your Anthem and an used Mono-Block. I know that might sound like a pile of wasted gear and expense but that might afford you a chance to see if the alternate wiring scheme helps. Then you could go from there.
> Your 5 channel Anthem feeds your CCR, your CC, and your two surrounds leaving you a free channel in your Anthem and an used Mono-Block.

Until this week, the 5 channel Anthem was feeding the center channel, the 2 side surrounds, and the 2 rear surrounds.

Until my old Velodyne woof died, I was also using the pre-pro's two sub outputs to feed two subs, both of which are/were active.

The easiest (and usually cheapest) way to improve the sound of your system is to put on a better recording.
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post #4088 of 4108 Old 05-01-2015, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ALCOMData View Post
> in this case you're going to have to get that center speaker aimed at you.

That's the way I started--I had the installer adjust the tilt so the ribbon was aimed directly at my ears. The pink noise is MUCH closer to matching the 20.1s when I move my head up or down, but I don't know yet if I can tilt the CCR back far enough to accomplish that. I'll experiment with that this weekend.

Peter
It could be closer because the CCR/SS combo has much less bass than the 20's and so when you move your head off-axis the center's highs are rolled off making the pink noise sound "fuller" or "deeper" due to the rolled-off highs. Or your ears could be in a null and when you move a little the bass comes back from the center. Or something else... This is one of those cases where, unless you know how it's supposed to sound, dialing it in by ear may not be optimal. With all the effort you've done to date, and a clear desire to both learn more and get it right, I'm going to suggest that you consider investing $100 in a calibrated mic and trying out REW (free analysis software). There is a thread devoted to it in the theory sub-forum where you can get a lot of help to run REW. You will probably end up much better off giving it a go.

FWIWFM - Don

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post #4089 of 4108 Old 05-01-2015, 06:05 PM
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ALCOMData

Sorry I didn't know you were 7.1. You could disconnect 2 surrounds to test the centers. I know I am being a pain .... my apologies!

Don gave you some good advice. I just got a calibrated mic and in the very near future will wrap my head around REW. I am curious to see what my ears hears (sorry couldn't resist!!!!!!)

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post #4090 of 4108 Old 05-01-2015, 07:14 PM
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Hi...

As I had mentioned in my previous messages I had been looking at Sanders Sound... but I found Sound Labs... and wanted to check if anyone had any opinion on them... In particular I was looking at model M-3PX.... the rest of their models are just too big.

Except for their HT line... they are electrostatic speakers with no cone bass.... But I thought electrostatic speakers ideally needed cone bass driver since my understanding electrostatic panels were not able to move air as cone bass drivers.... ?

Thanks.

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post #4091 of 4108 Old 05-01-2015, 07:36 PM
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I found that to make my CC5 and DMW work together properly I had to drive both inputs on the DMW, otherwise the DMW is about 3-6db low in output compared to the CC5. I use a Emotiva XPA-1L to drive both the CC5 and the DMW, by paralleling the 2 inputs on the DMW and running the CC5 off of one of the high outputs on the DMW to the CC5 inputs. The XPA-1L doesn't mind the low impedance at all, even in the high class A/B setting. I also tried with a ST-500 with Y input, one channel to the DMW paralleled and the other channel to the CC5. Both ways worked great.
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post #4092 of 4108 Old 05-01-2015, 07:54 PM
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Hi...

As I had mentioned in my previous messages I had been looking at Sanders Sound... but I found Sound Labs... and wanted to check if anyone had any opinion on them... In particular I was looking at model M-3PX.... the rest of their models are just too big.

Except for their HT line... they are electrostatic speakers with no cone bass.... But I thought electrostatic speakers ideally needed cone bass driver since my understanding electrostatic panels were not able to move air as cone bass drivers.... ?

Thanks.
You should open another thread for this. They are full-range ESL's. They are large enough and with high enough field that they do generate significant bass. A number of us have heard various Sound Lab ESLs but I have not heard them recently enough to comment fairly, and have only heard the bigger models. When I was comparing, I preferred the Magnepan 20 to the big Sound Lab. They were in the same room with the same electronics (all ML, I think, but it was a while ago) and the SL's bass was muddy and treble rolled off compared to Magnepans. BUT, numerous SL fans have told me the newer models are much better, so my experience may not accurately reflect their performance today. And in this class a huge difference is likely to be between 9.8 and 9.9, or maybe 9.98 and 9.99...

My opinion on the need for a good sub is on record and posted many times. I'll just say I am a strong proponent for virtually every speaker for a variety of reasons, not all of which have to do with the speaker itself.

Gotta' get back to practice, using AVS to enforce some short breaks tonight! - Don
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post #4093 of 4108 Old 05-02-2015, 07:21 PM
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Hi guys,

I'm heading over to a sale tomorrow where someone has a pair of MGII's for sale for $150. I don't have any experience with purchasing vintage maggies, so I'd love some suggestions on what I should be looking for. I'm planning to give them a listen, of course; however, I'd love to know what I should be thinking about before pulling the trigger on these.

Thanks so much!


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post #4094 of 4108 Old 05-02-2015, 08:07 PM
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Hi guys,

I'm heading over to a sale tomorrow where someone has a pair of MGII's for sale for $150. I don't have any experience with purchasing vintage maggies, so I'd love some suggestions on what I should be looking for. I'm planning to give them a listen, of course; however, I'd love to know what I should be thinking about before pulling the trigger on these.

Thanks so much!
For a hundred and fifty? Just buy 'em!
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post #4095 of 4108 Old 05-02-2015, 09:54 PM
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Hi guys,

I'm heading over to a sale tomorrow where someone has a pair of MGII's for sale for $150. I don't have any experience with purchasing vintage maggies, so I'd love some suggestions on what I should be looking for. I'm planning to give them a listen, of course; however, I'd love to know what I should be thinking about before pulling the trigger on these.

Thanks so much!
Make sure all the panels work (bass and treble panels in each speaker). Listen very carefully for any rattles or buzzing in the panels that may indicate delamination or torn panels. Use a flashlight to do a careful visual inspection, again looking for any tears or rips or obvious flaws in the panels.

If you aren't able to hear them then $150 may or may not be a good deal. Bear in mind the original MG-II was first released in the early 1970's, with various models designated MG-II_ running through the mid to late 1980's before being superceded by the MG-2.x models (and adding a ribbon tweeter). You might want to look at the MUG, maybe print out the MG-II section to take with you: http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M.../speakers.html

Magnepan quoted <$1k to rebuild my MG-IIIa's about five years ago. Assuming they'll still rebuild the II's if needed, you're probably looking around $500 or so, something to keep in mind. If they work $150 seems like a good deal; if not, if they can be rebuilt for $500 or so may still be worthwhile.

HTH - Don
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post #4096 of 4108 Old 05-02-2015, 11:32 PM
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If you aren't able to hear them then $150 may or may not be a good deal. Bear in mind the original MG-II was first released in the early 1970's, with various models designated MG-II_ running through the mid to late 1980's before being superceded by the MG-2.x models (and adding a ribbon tweeter).[/url]
I saw some photos including one of the model and serial number and these do appear to be original, 1970s-era MGII. There's no designation on the model other than MG-II and I've seen the later models specifying their revision.

Honestly, I'm questioning because I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to do with these. If it was a "no brainer" type situation (which I suppose it is if they're in good shape) then maybe I'll go for it. Otherwise, maybe it's just best to let it go.


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post #4097 of 4108 Old Yesterday, 06:35 AM
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If you have no use for them, let somebody who wants/needs them deal with them. Dunno' about you, but the last thing I need in our house is more clutter... Unless you have another room or plan to resell them? I suspect there is little chance you will replace your Theos' with MG-II's at this point.

As for me, the price is tempting if they work, so I would not even go because of the strong impulse to buy something I don't really need nor have space for just because they're cheap...

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post #4098 of 4108 Old Yesterday, 07:54 AM
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If you have no use for them, let somebody who wants/needs them deal with them. Dunno' about you, but the last thing I need in our house is more clutter... Unless you have another room or plan to resell them? I suspect there is little chance you will replace your Theos' with MG-II's at this point.
No, they definitely would not be used to replace the Theos which are, for all purposes, more capable speakers in basically every way. I do have a second room in which I'm currently running some old Boston Acoustics bookshelves that I have no love for. My plan would be to either sell the Boston's or sell the Maggies if they end up not fitting in the space.


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post #4099 of 4108 Old Yesterday, 01:39 PM
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Had a listen to them today. They sounded really good except for distortion with low frequencies. The amplifier the guy had them hooked up to was underpowered for the task of pushing maggies and it was old and he was in the process of rebuilding it.

In my estimation, the most likely culprit is amplifier clipping--either clipping on the output side or on the input since were driving them from a 3.5mm -> RCA adapter hooked up to an mp3 player with FLAC files.

I know the speakers are only rated down to 50hz; however, I didn't expect that to result in distortion. My gut tells me it was the amp; but, I don't want to jump on these only to find out they need $500+ in work from Magnepan.


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post #4100 of 4108 Old Yesterday, 03:11 PM
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Last past on this topic: First, thanks (especially to DonH50) for input on these! The price was right and they did sound good--but I was worried that I might be getting in over my head if something was wrong with them. I'll still keep my eyes open for a bargain on used maggies; but, I feel like these were just too big a risk given their age.


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post #4101 of 4108 Old Yesterday, 03:20 PM
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Hmmm... Possibly amp clipping, also possibly delamination issues. No way for me to tell without being there. In any event probably a good "pass" this time around.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #4102 of 4108 Old Yesterday, 03:29 PM
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Hmmm... Possibly amp clipping, also possibly delamination issues. No way for me to tell without being there. In any event probably a good "pass" this time around.
Even with a flashlight (maybe not a strong enough one, I guess) I was having a really hard time seeing the panel through the fabric. Any suggestions on how best to accomplish this in the future?


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post #4103 of 4108 Old Yesterday, 03:43 PM
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Worklight? I use a bright flashlight and move it around to shine at different angles whilst peering at the panels. At home I have a bright floor light I bring over and aim at the speaker. (Why at home? Kids, pets...) Depending on the sock fabric it can be hard to see anything. I look at both sides although there are magnets on one side (both sides if MG-20.x).

If there is a buzzing sound, usually (but not always) at the top and/or bottom, that sounds like wires vibrating against the panels (because that's what it is), then it is delamination. You can usually hear buzzing well before the amp clips unless they are way underpowered. Unless it is really bad you probably won't see delamination although sometimes the wires will be discolored where they are no longer enclosed in the glue.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #4104 of 4108 Old Yesterday, 06:49 PM
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Last past on this topic: First, thanks (especially to DonH50) for input on these! The price was right and they did sound good--but I was worried that I might be getting in over my head if something was wrong with them. I'll still keep my eyes open for a bargain on used maggies; but, I feel like these were just too big a risk given their age.

ALL old Maggies are a risk. I wouldn't buy a pair unless 1- They had been recently been sent to Magnepan for a relamination (such was the case with the T-IV's I bought last year), or 2- I found a pair I really wanted (say, a pair of T-IVa's) at a price that with the cost of relamination included were still reasonably priced. I mean, with the price of a new pair of .7's being what it is, why bother? But for $150, hell, I'd buy 'em and put 'em out on the patio!
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post #4105 of 4108 Old Today, 12:02 PM
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Uh, perhaps not the patio... But my guess is for <$1k you could end up with a pair of refurbished II's that would be a nice second system, or if you had the room you could use them to supplement the bass of your other panels or have a neat surround system. That would still be a good deal. Sans room and budget, let 'em go... I'd be more inclined if they were later models.

BDP24 -- You need another pair of panels to help those little screens of yours, go for it!

I have made a few great buys with the idea I'd fix them up and resell them. Most of the time Life and Work intervenes and I either sell them as-is for what I paid )or less, with my luck) or they are still stored someplace around the house waiting until I can retire (about 2341 A.D. the way things are going... ) and have time to piddle.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

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post #4106 of 4108 Old Today, 12:46 PM
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Uh, perhaps not the patio... But my guess is for <$1k you could end up with a pair of refurbished II's that would be a nice second system, or if you had the room you could use them to supplement the bass of your other panels or have a neat surround system. That would still be a good deal. Sans room and budget, let 'em go... I'd be more inclined if they were later models.

BDP24 -- You need another pair of panels to help those little screens of yours, go for it!

I have made a few great buys with the idea I'd fix them up and resell them. Most of the time Life and Work intervenes and I either sell them as-is for what I paid )or less, with my luck) or they are still stored someplace around the house waiting until I can retire (about 2341 A.D. the way things are going... ) and have time to piddle.
Between my Maggies, Quads, and ET's, and Rythmik sealed & GR Research OB subs, I'm done buying speakers for this lifetime. What I really need is a room big enough for all of them!
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post #4107 of 4108 Unread Today, 07:44 PM
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LOL, careful with those absolute statements!

I had my room nice and big, all prime dimensions, then we decided to add a bedroom and suck about 1/3 of my floor area away... At least my boy likes it, when he's here! Away at college now...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #4108 of 4108 Unread Today, 08:13 PM
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LOL, careful with those absolute statements!

I had my room nice and big, all prime dimensions, then we decided to add a bedroom and suck about 1/3 of my floor area away... At least my boy likes it, when he's here! Away at college now...
Now THAT'S love! I'm a few months away from making my last (I hope) move, and high on my list of wants is one of those prime dimension rooms. The only way to have a 10 X 16 X 26 room is to build one, but an 8 X 13 X 19 is possible to find, makes for a good sounding room, and is just big enough for a pair of panels.
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