The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 138 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 58Likes
Reply
Thread Tools
post #4111 of 4140 Old 05-19-2015, 05:20 AM
Member
 
12B4A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: CR Iowa
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 18
FWIW, GIK has a special running at the moment for their freestanding bass traps and their thinner freestand acoustic panel. For the bass trap, it will come under $300 after shipping for a pair of absorbers that seem to be a perfect fit for the MMG to 1.7 range of panel sizes. I've been using the freestand bass traps behind my MMGs for a few weeks now and it really is worth it. Of course, one could make a DIY one significantly cheaper (been there with Jon Risch's design a dozen and a half years ago) but the freestands are finished on both sides and the steel feet are a nice touch. Pic enclosed to give an idea of their size.

http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/...and-bass-trap/
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Freestand MMG.jpg
Views:	46
Size:	162.2 KB
ID:	725074  

Life is Lambertian
12B4A is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4112 of 4140 Old 05-19-2015, 07:49 AM
Advanced Member
 
BDP24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Once you've heard what ASC Tube Traps (or DIY bass traps built with the same observance of acoustic theory) are capable of doing in a sealed room, traps built otherwise (flat panels, which are great for non-bass frequencies) seem like 98 lb. weaklings in comparison, in their ability to absorb very low frequencies. Of course, that ability comes at a substantially higher cost than flat panels.

Last edited by BDP24; 05-19-2015 at 11:48 AM.
BDP24 is online now  
post #4113 of 4140 Old 05-19-2015, 11:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,900
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 417
My corner traps have about 12" of regular OC-703 or whatever and seem to help somewhat.

Damping the back wave, at least in the midrange and up (preferably lower but that's harder), can make a substantial difference in sound in most rooms. Not everyone likes it, to each his own.

IME/IMO - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #4114 of 4140 Old 05-19-2015, 12:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
BDP24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
My corner traps have about 12" of regular OC-703 or whatever and seem to help somewhat.

Damping the back wave, at least in the midrange and up (preferably lower but that's harder), can make a substantial difference in sound in most rooms. Not everyone likes it, to each his own.

IME/IMO - Don
Whether or not to absorb, or diffuse, the rear wave of a dipole speaker is one thing. Employing bass traps to absorb the build up of bass standing waves in a sealed room is a different thing entirely. There isn't any room or system, no matter what the desired sound characteristic of it may be, that does not benefit from being fitted with bass traps, whether the speakers are dipole, bipole, or monopole; ESL, magnetic-planar, ribbon, horn, dynamic, or any other type of speaker. As far as an enclosed space with any set of speakers in it, a room is a room, and bass is bass. And few of us have one with dimensions optimum for the minimization of bass frequency modes. Too few systems have the cost of bass traps included in their budget, IMO. The room---the single most important component in a system, and the one usually considered only as an afterthought, and with far too little funds earmarked for. In this case, your mileage will NOT vary!

Last edited by BDP24; 05-19-2015 at 12:26 PM.
BDP24 is online now  
post #4115 of 4140 Old 05-19-2015, 12:18 PM
Member
 
12B4A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: CR Iowa
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Right, GIK's naming the panel as a bass absorber is only true in a sense if it's straddling a corner. Otherwise it is just cutting down the reflection of the lower mids on up.

Life is Lambertian
12B4A is offline  
post #4116 of 4140 Old 05-19-2015, 12:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
BDP24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 73
The "trap" in bass trap is quite literal. Bass frequencies check in, but they don't check out! The only way to achieve that is with a sealed absorber. If it's not sealed, it's not a bass trap. Placing a flat panel across a corner does not make it a bass trap.
BDP24 is online now  
post #4117 of 4140 Old 05-19-2015, 12:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,900
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 417
I used two paragraphs for a reason, to indicate they were not the same thing.

My corner absorber is broad-band and is not actually flat but is most certainly not "sealed". It is off the corner a bit since OC-703 etc. absorbers work better a bit off the wall (need some wave velocity to provide better absorption). I am not sure what a "sealed absorber" is nor how broadband; what comes to mind is a resonator (a.la. Helmholtz) or just a cavity (tube) filled with absorbing material. If it is completely sealed I am not sure how it works (but have not tried to think about it). You can go to the NRC or any one of a number of sites to see the absorption curves for various materials. Most fall off at LF, natch, leaving you to make up with thickness. Or switch technologies... Diffusors get too large to be practical in most rooms at very low frequencies (but can be great for higher frequencies). Resonator structures, membrane structures, active systems, etc. etc. etc. Beyond the scope of this thread.

As for my system, I have (in today's dollars) about $12k in speakers and about $3k in room treatment (couple of dozen 2'x4' panels, 4" and 6", plus those thick corner thingies (<since you don't like the word "traps">, mostly kits, a cost-saving compromise between full DIY and commercial). Normally I would not spend (nor require) so much on treatment, but my wonderful big primed room dimensions got thrown all out of whack when we added a bedroom in the basement and I gave up about a third of my area to that and associated hallway. With both asymmetric walls and doubled-up dimensions I had to use a lot more than I had planned, and there is still a 30 Hz fundamental mode that dictates where I sit (at least until and unless I decide to add more subs, but the room is such that even that would be difficult).

It would be a very rare set of speakers in a very special room that would not benefit from some acoustic treatment.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #4118 of 4140 Old 05-19-2015, 12:56 PM
Member
 
12B4A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: CR Iowa
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 18
@BDP24 You don't think you're getting a little hyperbolic?

Life is Lambertian
12B4A is offline  
post #4119 of 4140 Old 05-19-2015, 02:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
BDP24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Yeah Don, Helmholtz resonator is exactly correct. The term sealed means the sound that goes in does not come back out. It's really a lymph mass, I think it's called. The larger in diameter the trap, the lower in frequency it's effective. They've been built into the walls of recording studios for a long time. What Art Noxon at ASC did was make them free standing and independent of the room's structure, and in different sizes. Then RPG came along, and introduced audiophiles to diffraction---the random scattering of reflections, rather than their absorption. With those two devices, a good sounding room can be had. For a price, of course! There is a new high-performance Hi-Fi dealer in S. California, Brian Berdan, son of Brooks (R.I.P.) at Audio Elements, who did it right, building his main listening room 10' H X 16' W X 26' L. Those dimensions make for the most even, mild room modes possible.

Last edited by BDP24; 05-19-2015 at 07:07 PM.
BDP24 is online now  
post #4120 of 4140 Old 05-19-2015, 08:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,900
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 417
Hmmm... A resonator is good at a fundamental and at multiples of that. I am guessing the trap is filled to provide deep nulls at a series of frequencies and still offer decent broadband absorption. Been a long time since my grad acoustics classes and my career took a different path... There are resonator structures that provide multiple resonant frequencies to provide a range of control.

Diffusion has been around a long, long time; pretty sure it predates RPG though they have made some popular products. For laymen Everest has a decent presentation. I'd love to add some diffusors but unless you DIY they are much more expensive than just velocity-based absorbers (and harder to make if you DIY). Arguably a better choice sonically.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #4121 of 4140 Old 05-19-2015, 09:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
BDP24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Don, there is a lot of technical info on the ASC website about their Tube Traps, way more than I could remember. Art Noxon is an expert in the field, and was doing recording studios for years before he addressed the audiophile consumer market. I give RPG credit for targeting the audiophile market with their diffusors, not for inventing them! I found the RPG products unacceptably over-priced when I looked into them. Diffusors are pretty easy to make, and the formulas to do so are available on the www.
BDP24 is online now  
post #4122 of 4140 Old 05-20-2015, 12:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,900
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 417
I should read the ASC white papers again before saying more. read them years ago but it's been a while and I've forgotten most of it (I keep going back to basics; the math was so hideous in those grad acoustics classes that basic principles have -- mostly -- stuck with me). In case it is not obvious, I in no way shape or form consider myself an acoustics expert, just played with it a bit (theoretical and practical, college and work counts for something).

As for easy to make, diffusors are harder to make than throwing sheets over panels, but yah not that hard to make. There are some gorgeous examples in various DIY threads. I'm just lazy. Or maybe too many 60 - 80 workweeks. There are also a number of different schemes (equations) for implementing diffusors, each with their proponents and detractors. Sonically probably little difference to the average listener if it's QRD, PRD, MLS, or whatever. The biggest drawback is they need to be big (and deep) for lower frequencies, making them difficult to recommend behind panels for reducing the back wave. (I have in the primordial past worked in studios that had 4' to 8' deep or so diffusors.) They are my first choice sonically for most wall and ceiling treatments, but I didn't have the funds to buy nor time and resources to build back when I was putting together my new media room.

Note Maggies and most panels act like line sources from lower midrange up and so do not radiate much off the sides or top and bottom. That reduces the need for sidewall and ceiling treatment in most rooms (not mine, alas) and improves their relative efficiency/sensitivity compared to conventional speakers (the sound falls off a little less rapidly with distance).

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #4123 of 4140 Old 05-30-2015, 05:28 AM
Senior Member
 
JamesE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Hi everyone,

This is my 1st post in this section. I’ve had a pair of 1.6’s since 1998 (?). When I got them and had smaller room, 13 x 17 x 8, with corner bass traps and 12 diffusor cabinets designed by Decware. The room had a wooden floor and was very bright—too bright by HT standards but I really liked it. The wood floor added a lot to the room. The corner bass traps were a sealed design.

Then I moved and started building a house. In 2005 I got the theater/listening room to an acceptable point and had to focus on other things. The room is a geodesic dome above my garage—27.5 feet in diameter. Domes are the worst acoustical space you can imagine. Ethan Winer has a video describing what flutter is—my room was just as bad if not worse.

In 2005 I got the room to an acceptable point. Uncovered OC 701 was stacked around the outside of the room and a 117 square foot bass trap hung in the center of the room. This created a somewhat anechoic space but at least the flutter was gone.

Now I doing a makeover of the room. I have had 4 major problems to deal with. 1) I’m using Maggie’s and 99.9% of the information out there about room acoustics is the opposite for a dipole speaker. 2) I’m only found 1 article out of all the years I’ve been interested in this hobby that applies to domes. 3) I want a combined theater/listening room. Many audiophiles consider me a heretic—it’s 2 channel or nothing at all! 4) Domes have horrible acoustic challenges.

The first project in the makeover was to build a bass trap that extends all the way around the room. I the trap is and OSB frame covered with felt, filled with regular pink house insulation and trimmed out with walnut plywood. The dimensions are 3’ in the back, 2’ in the front and 20 inches deep. The bass trap made a dramatic difference in the music. Everything is crisper and more focused. The bass is tight. The room is brighter without increased flutter. The upper midrange treble reflecting off of the walnut strips is diffused.

Attached is a picture of my new bass trap and a REW plot. I'll quit here. My limited experience has been that properly treating a room will make a dramatic difference in the sound. I'm just a hobbyist. I can only imagine what a professionally designed room must sound like.
JamesE is online now  
post #4124 of 4140 Old 05-30-2015, 08:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,900
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 417
According to the MUG site the 1.6's came out in 1998.

I see no pictures?

Maggies act like line sources from lower midrange up and do not radiate much to the sides or top/bottom. That means they are less likely to have problems in a room with a dome ceiling than conventional speakers. Otherwise conventional treatment rules apply. For music and/or HT; sonically I do not see why the goals need be different. the addition of side and rear speakers can add more potential reflections, of course, but since they support the video I would focus on cleaning up the sound for music and HT will likely sound just fine.

It is not clear to me from a quick read of your post what problems you have and what you want to do. What has changed, or is changing, to necessitate a redo? In general my advice for dipoles is to first treat the wall behind the speakers then decide what else might need doing. If your listening position has a wall close behind, that would probably be my next target, but "it depends". My room is heavily (probably excessively) treated mainly to control some vexing room modes but most do not need so much treatment. If your walls follow the dome, i.e. are not rectangular, then reflections can be an issue and more wall treatment could help. But it sounds like you are already there...?

HTH - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #4125 of 4140 Old 05-30-2015, 09:59 AM
Senior Member
 
JamesE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I hope the pictures come through this time.

I've read many times that a cube is the worst shaped room and that may be but a geodesic dome is a close 2nd. All of the ceiling panels point toward the floor so the reflections that survive the carpet eventually end up in the center of the room bouncing back and forth causing intense flutter. The bass modes are intensified because everything is the same. The only corner in the room is where the ceiling comes in contact with the floor. With conventional speakers the surrounds have absorption directly behind the speaker. With Maggie's the absorption would be off to the side and maybe have diffusion directly behind the Maggie.

Quite often the recommendation for treating a room is to have a dead front end which works great for conventional speakers but not for Maggie's. Also, in my opinion, Maggie's sound better in a bright room. I'm not a big fan of treating reflections with absorption.

As far as the goals of music verses HT go, I'm with you. They should not be that much different. One issue I came across recently was having a TV between the speakers. The TV destroyed the stereo image. I was amazed at the difference when I took the TV out.

How do you recommend treating the wall behind the dipoles?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Bass Trap-1.jpg
Views:	32
Size:	244.3 KB
ID:	746049   Click image for larger version

Name:	Apr 15 waterfall.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	173.3 KB
ID:	746057  
JamesE is online now  
post #4126 of 4140 Old 05-30-2015, 02:43 PM
Member
 
tanner144's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Incredible workmanship - never seen anything like it.

With Room Acoustics by themselves and the addition of Maggie's ,
it's good to see you you've had success with the treatment.

I'd sure like to see any more room pics you might have.

FIGHT COMPRESSION
tanner144 is offline  
post #4127 of 4140 Old 05-30-2015, 09:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,900
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 417
Killing the back wave is something I prefer as the image is much better (no comb filtering). It does "deaden" the sound, however, so is not for everyone. IME you can skip it in a room big enough to get them well away from the wall behind. I use thick absorbers (6" plus 12" in the corners) behind mine because they are much cheaper than diffusors and work at much lower frequency for their size (thickness). My room is square in a couple of dimensions so I have a lot of absorption. Ideally I would use more diffusors on the side walls and ceiling; maybe one of these days I'll build or buy some to replace some of the absorption panels. Or not...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #4128 of 4140 Old Yesterday, 12:08 PM
Senior Member
 
JamesE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 12
From what I have read, the back wall should have absorption or at least a 20 ms delay. I had a 16 ms delay time and put the diffuser in manly because I liked the design. It is also the head board of my bed. The base hasn't been made yet. It breaks down into 3 pieces: the front frame, upper 3 rows and the lower 3 rows. Then pieces go on the ends. The upper and lower pieces weigh 150 lbs each.

Comb filtering doesn't affect the sound unless the peaks to valley's are over 3 db(?) I don't know.

I have a new Sony VPL-HW40E. I was going to go with a large TV but after hearing what a huge difference the TV made to the stereo image I decided to put in another projector with an acoustically transparent roll up screen.

A while back I had been messing around with Audyssey. My son came over and listened. I thought it was sounding pretty good compared to before. He listened and said "It sounds like sh**. My last theater sounded really good.

So yesterday I had him listen again and he was just beaming. It sounds really good! As good as last theater? "Better!" The only thing that has changed is the acoustics.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Head board.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	174.5 KB
ID:	747881  
JamesE is online now  
post #4129 of 4140 Old Yesterday, 07:23 PM
Senior Member
 
JamesE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 12
The other issue with geodesic dome is that all of the wall/ceiling surfaces point toward the center of the sphere. This means that almost all of the reflections go into the floor eliminating much of the treble in the carpet. I created a front wall with diffusers and sub woofers. The subs are just for HT and not for music. Before I put in this front wall book cabinets filled the space. The diffusers turned out bigger than what I expected when drawing them up on paper.

Before the diffusers were done I was still going back and forth trying to decide on building lx521’s or keeping the Maggie’s. The diffusers are too big for the lx521’s and the Maggie’s sound great. I may sill build the lx521 subs to go with the Maggie’s if for no other reason than to protect them. Some of the new movies are coming out with extreme amounts of bass.

I have never been able to listen to Styx Greatest Hits all of the way through. It has always sounded harsh. Yesterday I played it with the new diffusers. It no longer sounds harsh and I even listened to the whole CD. The sound stage is now huge.

Attached is my front wall. The TV is on its way out as soon as the screen arrives.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Front wall.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	117.2 KB
ID:	749041  
JamesE is online now  
post #4130 of 4140 Old Yesterday, 07:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,900
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 417
Using 1127'/s velocity of sound, 20 ms is about 22.54 feet. Seems a bit excessive... Note 1/20 ms = 50 Hz and is a quarter wavelength at roughly 12.5 Hz. Magnepan suggests at least 3' or about 2.66 ms, a quarter wavelength at about 94 Hz. You want to get the fundamental cancellation (quarter wave) frequency low enough to be inaudible, or a delay long enough that your brain processes it independently, to obviate comb filtering. Of course, multiples of that frequency can also be a problem, which is why I prefer to just dampen the back wave.

* Edit: If by back wall you mean the wall behind the MLP, it's the distance from the wall to your ears, not from the speakers, that's important.

Nit-picking aside, that is one impressive diffusor!

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #4131 of 4140 Old Yesterday, 07:48 PM
Senior Member
 
JamesE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
* Edit: If by back wall you mean the wall behind the MLP, it's the distance from the wall to your ears, not from the speakers, that's important.
Yes, the distance from your ears to the wall and back to your ear < 20 ms.

Everything is this room turned out big.
JamesE is online now  
post #4132 of 4140 Old Today, 12:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 3,207
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1035 Post(s)
Liked: 994
A couple of nice highlights at “The Show” in Irvine, California were the Magnepan exhibits. Oddly, there were two exhibitors, and both had the .7 Maggies and only the .7s. The larger exhibit had three .7s and two Maggie bass panels, while the smaller room had two .7s along with a couple of small, not yet released, JL Audio subs, yet turned them off during the last part of the demo. Both rooms were nicely appointed and both were pretty well filled during my visits.

The odd thing about a lot of these exhibitors is their choice of music. Fortunately, both Maggie exhibitors played music to highlight their speakers, while I could swear other exhibitors seemed bent on undermining their speakers. The larger Magnepan exhibit was run by the audio store where I purchased my Maggies, and we had a nice reunion and pleasant conversation. But it was the smaller exhibit that won the day. Both my son and I sat mesmerized. While an odd assortment of music was indeed being played, it couldn’t have shown off the Maggies any better. We were both highly impressed how this music brought out the maximum capabilities of these speakers.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 & C48, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95 and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek R5Bi, PSA XS30, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
dsrussell is online now  
post #4133 of 4140 Old Today, 09:58 AM
Advanced Member
 
BDP24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
A couple of nice highlights at “The Show” in Irvine, California were the Magnepan exhibits. Oddly, there were two exhibitors, and both had the .7 Maggies and only the .7s. The larger exhibit had three .7s and two Maggie bass panels, while the smaller room had two .7s along with a couple of small, not yet released, JL Audio subs, yet turned them off during the last part of the demo. Both rooms were nicely appointed and both were pretty well filled during my visits.

The odd thing about a lot of these exhibitors is their choice of music. Fortunately, both Maggie exhibitors played music to highlight their speakers, while I could swear other exhibitors seemed bent on undermining their speakers. The larger Magnepan exhibit was run by the audio store where I purchased my Maggies, and we had a nice reunion and pleasant conversation. But it was the smaller exhibit that won the day. Both my son and I sat mesmerized. While an odd assortment of music was indeed being played, it couldn’t have shown off the Maggies any better. We were both highly impressed how this music brought out the maximum capabilities of these speakers.
I quite agree! The larger room, with the three .7's (one for center channel), had little Maggie bass squares but didn't have them playing (Wendell said). The 3-panel set-up made a good case for having a center channel speaker even for 2-channel music, as the L and R .7's were quite far apart, yet there was no hole in the middle. From old pics I take it that 3-speaker set-ups were not uncommon in the Hi-Fi boom of the 60's. Anyway, the .7's sounded really fine. Better, in fact, than the 1.7's I heard about a year ago. Of course, different room, different associated gear, different source material. dsr is so right about many of the rooms---really questionable material played way too loudly. Even a good recording (a new pressing of a Dean Martin album) will sound bad when played at cringe-inducing SPL. What is wrong with some dealers?!
BDP24 is online now  
post #4134 of 4140 Old Today, 10:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 3,207
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1035 Post(s)
Liked: 994
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
I quite agree! The larger room, with the three .7's (one for center channel), had little Maggie bass squares but didn't have them playing (Wendell said). The 3-panel set-up made a good case for having a center channel speaker even for 2-channel music, as the L and R .7's were quite far apart, yet there was no hole in the middle. From old pics I take it that 3-speaker set-ups were not uncommon in the Hi-Fi boom of the 60's. Anyway, the .7's sounded really fine. Better, in fact, than the 1.7's I heard about a year ago. Of course, different room, different associated gear, different source material. dsr is so right about many of the rooms---really questionable material played way too loudly. Even a good recording (a new pressing of a Dean Martin album) will sound bad when played at cringe-inducing SPL. What is wrong with some dealers?!
BDP24: Were you there for the day or the weekend? My son and I went Sunday.

There were several lowlights and highlights at the show. The worst were people hawking their wares and spinning audiophile crappola, even in the hotel hallways. I did thoroughly enjoy the HT room filled with McIntosh gear and line array speakers. Plus those four Gotham G213 subs were nice, as was the 4k projector. Quite impressive.

As we both found it, it’s rather difficult to judge some of these speakers because of the material being played, as well as some of the sound levels. The Magico room was an immense room (like 30,000 cu. ft.) and those two speakers were capable of filling that room without a sub! The big problem when I was there was they only mentioned the Magico speakers in passing. He was selling his company’s pseudo-science BS fairy dust and if I were Magico, I would never allow this hawker near my speakers. He had a reviewer that was filming him, so this demo was really drawn out. I had to suppress laughter several times in his carny atmosphere sideshow.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 & C48, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95 and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek R5Bi, PSA XS30, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
dsrussell is online now  
post #4135 of 4140 Old Today, 02:05 PM
Advanced Member
 
BDP24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 73
I was there Friday and Saturday. If I were a manufacturer, or even a distributor, I would take how some of these dealers were presenting my products at a show like this as an indicator of how they do it in their Hi-Fi shop. Yikes! I'm a long-time electrostatic loudspeaker user and lover, so maybe it's not surprising that my favorite room was the Sanders. I don't remember who the dealer was, but the room was set-up semi-diagonally, so that there was no flat rear wall to have to deal with acoustically. Then, he had three chairs in a single line facing the speakers, one behind another, so each chair was in the "sweet spot". Ingenious! The big Sanders ($20,000 for the L & R panels with cone-woofer bins at the bottom of each panel, Sanders integral power amps, and the cross-overs, 175Hz) sounded fan-freaking-tastic. I mean, really, Really, REALLY good. I'm in lust! Maybe if I sell all of my speakers---Quads, Maggies, Eminent Technologies---I can get a pair. I'm actually seriously considering it.
BDP24 is online now  
post #4136 of 4140 Old Today, 02:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
shivaji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 33
While I no longer have my 1.6's anymore, I do love the Maggie sound. As a few here went to the Show as did I, I wonder if anyone had a listen to the Spatial Audio room. I really liked their open baffle speaker.
shivaji is online now  
post #4137 of 4140 Old Today, 04:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 3,207
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1035 Post(s)
Liked: 994
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
I was there Friday and Saturday. If I were a manufacturer, or even a distributor, I would take how some of these dealers were presenting my products at a show like this as an indicator of how they do it in their Hi-Fi shop. Yikes! I'm a long-time electrostatic loudspeaker user and lover, so maybe it's not surprising that my favorite room was the Sanders. I don't remember who the dealer was, but the room was set-up semi-diagonally, so that there was no flat rear wall to have to deal with acoustically. Then, he had three chairs in a single line facing the speakers, one behind another, so each chair was in the "sweet spot". Ingenious! The big Sanders ($20,000 for the L & R panels with cone-woofer bins at the bottom of each panel, Sanders integral power amps, and the cross-overs, 175Hz) sounded fan-freaking-tastic. I mean, really, Really, REALLY good. I'm in lust! Maybe if I sell all of my speakers---Quads, Maggies, Eminent Technologies---I can get a pair. I'm actually seriously considering it.
I too attended the Saunders room. Hey, a panel guy is a panel guy . I really think they could have placed 5 chairs in the room. The first chair being a single, and double chairs behind. I was in the second row and tilted my head to one side then the other, but the sweet spot was still solid. They played different types of music that included a drum solo I really liked (although I actually preferred the drum solo in the small Maggie room). Very nice sound from the Saunders, as one would expect. But if I were honest with myself, those .7s came dang close for $1400 / pair ($1700 for those acrylic stands) and felt it outdid the Saunders on a couple of music pieces (probably just better music to show the prowess of the Maggies). Would have loved to have heard the same music in both rooms. BTW, that was an interesting curtain of birch trees across the window.
BDP24 likes this.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 & C48, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95 and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek R5Bi, PSA XS30, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
dsrussell is online now  
post #4138 of 4140 Old Today, 06:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,900
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Liked: 417
"Sanders" -- I really need to drive up and see Roger, haven't met him in person since the 80's (and he was not in CO then). But, I'm afraid of what would be in the back of the car on the way home...
BDP24 likes this.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #4139 of 4140 Old Today, 06:39 PM
Advanced Member
 
BDP24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Yeah, on an absolute basis, the Sanders aren't as much better than the .7's as they are more expensive---the .7's are a much higher value. The best value speaker I heard at the show, in fact. I preferred the .7's to the Vandersteen 7's ($45,000, I believe) and the various Wilsons too. Like you say, a panel guy is a panel guy! Vandersteens STILL sound too warm and soft to me, like the 60's Acoustic Research speakers, if you're old enough to remember them. And whenever I hear a Wilson, I feel like I'm in the balcony of a theater, looking down on the stage. Not where I like to sit at a concert. Also, with both Vandersteen's and Wilsons (and almost all other box speakers), all the instruments are miniaturized, a comically small version of their real-life self. A grand piano is huge, and it's soundboard apparently needs a panel to launch the soundwaves it produces if it's reproduction is to sound life-size. Same with the concert bass drum in a symphony orchestra. A point source speaker sounds like the instruments are being squeezed through a little hole in a wall between them and myself. Even a modest panel such as the .7 provides life-size images. What a big ESL like the Sanders does, though, that Magnetic Planars don't (IMO), is give you that last degree of liquid transparency, the see-through, high-resolution, disappearing act that ESL's are unmatched at. I assume it's because of the lower moving mass of an ESL in comparison to a M-P. The Sanders produced the most lifelike acoustic/stand-up bass reproduction I have EVER heard. The snap of the string pulling away from the players fingers, the buzz of the string as it slaps back against the bass' neck, the resonance of the bass' body, changing in timbre as the note dies away---unequalled in my experience. I sometimes play (I'm a drummer) with a 3/4 scale upright a few feet from me, and the Sanders NAILED it! I have to find out what the recording was.

Last edited by BDP24; Today at 08:03 PM.
BDP24 is online now  
post #4140 of 4140 Unread Today, 07:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 3,207
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1035 Post(s)
Liked: 994
^ Yes, I do remember Acoustic Research, Advent and many others back in the 60s and 70s . I heard my first Quad back in the 70s. While I’ve never played a musical instrument in my life, my younger brother was a drummer and my son is trained in classic piano.

There were two non-panel speakers that really impressed me at The Show (one was a dipole design). Magico I already listed (extremely impressed) and Kyron Audio’s Kronos dipole (a ridiculous $112,000). The McIntosh line arrays were extremely impressive for HT, but I didn’t hear them for music (although I’ve heard several McIntosh line arrays in the past).

I was at the Wilson audition, but unfortunately I couldn’t hear anything because the boss at Sunny’s AV (a place where I auditioned the JL Audio F212 Fathom) was holding a meeting in the front row with a client (?) and talking too loud, plus several other people were holding their own meeting at the back of the room. A waste of my time and those who were there to listen. Sunny had several rooms, so I went next door to audition the GoldenEar, but a teen was at the controls and he couldn’t stop skipping all over the place with music he liked (10 seconds here, 5 seconds there and so on). Another terrible audition that left me unimpressed.

As I stated earlier, Synergetic Research was conducting the Magico audition, but in truth he was there only to show his esoteric magic dust (a ground and a small “black box” that was suppose to act as a bass trap). Prior to him beginning his sales pitch, I was fortunate to hear what the Magico S3 could really do (the Synergetic guy said the Magico speakers were S5s, so he didn’t bother to even get the model number right, since it was evident he didn’t care).

Unfortunately, I haven’t heard the Vandersteens, but then again, I wouldn’t put that much into any speaker, especially since I’m thrilled with the 3.6s.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 & C48, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95 and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek R5Bi, PSA XS30, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
dsrussell is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Tags
Magnepan , Magnepan Mmg , Magnepan Mini Maggie System , Magnepan Mg 1 7 , Magnepan Mg 3 7

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off