The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 172 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5131 of 5157 Old 07-12-2017, 08:07 AM
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So, a little update since everyone on here was helping me:

I ended up pulling a trigger on a pair of Parasound JC1 Monoblocks to match my Parasound A21 (stereo amp). I removed my wide channels and I'm trying to simplify my setup a bit and get better components, but less of them.

I'm at a point where I'm going to use the A21 and try the Magnepan tri-center approach after talking to Wendell at Magnepan:
* Split center signal, run both inputs into L and R inputs of A21
* Out of A21, run each into an input of a DWM.
* Out of one DWM high output into a CC5, and out of the other high output into parallel MC1s that go on either side of the screen (2 ohms at > 200hz, but Parasound said A21 should handle this).

Will check back in after I set it all up and experiment. Has anyone an empirical opinion on the tri center? My early experiments have been mixed.

With the upgrade and with the JC1 not having gain control, I'm thinking that my Emotiva XPA-2 that I was going to have running my one DWM for the L and R bass augmentation will be completely dwarfed by the JC1s and my fronts. To that end, my XPA-2 and extra DWM may be useless. Hopefully the JC1 power increase will improve the 3.7i bass enough that I don't need it. I may be selling more equipment (XPA-2, Gen 2, XPA 1L, Magnepan DWM w/Mye stand). Email: kurt at kurtmiller.net if you're interested.
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post #5132 of 5157 Old 07-12-2017, 08:31 AM
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@Timothy Wright : Any shelf above the PA should be a few inches above it to allow airflow (check the manual for suggested spacing; a big class AB amp will probably need about 6"). I have also set the amp(s) on the floor behind the speakers, usually on a short (1"~2") riser platform (often just plywood on 2x4's or little blocks) to get it out of the carpet and dust bunnies, so they are in the open. Easy with Maggies since you want space from speakers to the wall behind anyway.

In some closet installs in the past I have added a ventilation fan (like a bathroom fan but a little larger with slower-turning -- and thus quieter -- fan motor) in the ceiling and either gapped or added a slotted ventilation port to the bottom of the door (same as used for air returns in rooms). The ceiling fan can be a pill if the closet is not open to the attic above; if a duct to the outside can be added, great, but some folk simply dump into the space between floors (usually not insulated) and let 'er rip. If the closet is on an outer wall you can just put an exhaust fan high on the outer wall and dump outside.

For actively cooling your equipment rack/console a cheap solution is to buy a wall-wart with USB outputs to drive a (or a few) large-ish low-speed computer fans mounted to the back of the cabinet/rack to pull fresh air from the front and exhaust out the back. Place them where they'll pull out the hot air. (Please refrain from comments about where I should place mine. )

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #5133 of 5157 Old 07-12-2017, 08:40 AM
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@DonH50 & @Timothy Wright :
To keep my amps cool, I purchased two of these USB fan pairs (haven't received them yet):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And a temperature sensor:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

For about $100. The fans can daisy chain so that one temperature sensor can control both pairs. Extendable to 2 more fans
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post #5134 of 5157 Old 07-12-2017, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Wright View Post

Are the new Threshold amps half as good as yours? I ask because the quality of construction you describe is exactly what I am interested in and worth paying for. I suspect the STASIS 7.0 would be a on the small side for my 3.7i ($7000?) so I am drawn to the Threshold STASIS 8.0 (400 w/ch at 4 ohms) ($7500-old price) but I have no idea what that would cost today?

The Threshold S/5000e has the same output specs seems to be less expensive. I'd also like to price that unit. ($2500 I can easily afford that)

Reviews say Threshold amp put out a whole lot of heat!!!

I've never had the chance to see or hear products from the new Threshold, although I have read about them and looked at their website. I don't know if they are built as well as the originals were. Here is the inside of my 29 year old Threshold S500 though:




The thing still looks like new inside after 29 years of use. You can see the gold plating on the circuit boards.

The products from Pass Labs today would be the closest in construction quality to the original Threshold products, since Nelson Pass is/was responsible for both.

Main system: Thiel 3.6 L/R speakers, Pair of Velodyne F1500r subs, B&W HTM center, Emotiva and Polk RTi 28 surrounds, Integra DHC 9.9 pre/proc, Pair of Emotiva XPA-1's, Emotiva XPA-5, Threshold SA/4e, pair of Threshold S/200's, Oracle Delphi TT w Magnepan Unitrac 1 arm and Shure V15 - Vmr, Logitech Squeezebox Touch, Oppo BDP 83 optical disc player, Threshold T2 preamp, Denon DR-M44HX cassette, Pioneer CLD-97 Laserdisc. LG PF1500 led projector,Elite 100"tab tension-ed motorized screen.
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post #5135 of 5157 Old 07-12-2017, 01:59 PM
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@strindl I don't see any tubes inside your Threshold amps, they look like Class D to me. Do your amps, do Pass Labs run all that hot or are they simply warm for Class D?

That is generally what I like to see inside an amp; coffee can size capacitors.

System: (2) NASs with 40TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Pre-Amp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV
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post #5136 of 5157 Old 07-12-2017, 02:33 PM
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@strindl I don't see any tubes inside your Threshold amps, they look like Class D to me. Do your amps, do Pass Labs run all that hot or are they simply warm for Class D?

That is generally what I like to see inside an amp; coffee can size capacitors.

Threshold power amps were referred to as Class A/AB Stasis amps. They run in class A to a higher percentage of their rated power than most class AB amps do. I have one Threshold Amplifier, the model SA/4e, that runs pure class A. They all run hotter than , let's say the Adcom or Phase Linear amps do. The pure class A one runs hotter than the others. They have some pretty massive heat sinks to take care of the heat though. And even the class A amp does not throw off as much heat as the Audio Research tube monoblocs I tried out in my main system did.

The Stasis circuitry was a Threshold development, and aside from Threshold licensing the technology to Nakamichi for a line of high end amps in the 90's, it was exclusive to Threshold. They used lots of high current power transistors, 20 per side for a total of 40 in the S500, and 28 per side for a total of 56 in the SA/4e, and large capacity custom toroidal transformers capable of delivering twice their rated output for short periods of time.

Main system: Thiel 3.6 L/R speakers, Pair of Velodyne F1500r subs, B&W HTM center, Emotiva and Polk RTi 28 surrounds, Integra DHC 9.9 pre/proc, Pair of Emotiva XPA-1's, Emotiva XPA-5, Threshold SA/4e, pair of Threshold S/200's, Oracle Delphi TT w Magnepan Unitrac 1 arm and Shure V15 - Vmr, Logitech Squeezebox Touch, Oppo BDP 83 optical disc player, Threshold T2 preamp, Denon DR-M44HX cassette, Pioneer CLD-97 Laserdisc. LG PF1500 led projector,Elite 100"tab tension-ed motorized screen.
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post #5137 of 5157 Old 07-12-2017, 05:41 PM
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I dropped off my Yamaha power amp tonight, I'll lose it for a week. I figure I found one guy who knows what he is doing so I'll turn him lose on my amp.

Back to my original idea, when I sort out the best candidates for ~ 400w/ch power amps even adding Threshold and ATI to list of contenders I still get a short list.

When for example I go car shopping I start off with a list of cars I'd like to look at, price, test drive. I think my list of contenders is less than 20 amps long. Short enough to catch up on my reading and make a spreadsheet.

I may not buy a particular amp because of spreadsheet, but it is a good way to rule out some amps.

Strindl> Threshold power amps were referred to as Class A/AB Stasis amps. They run in class A to a higher percentage of their rated power than most class AB amps do. I have one Threshold Amplifier, the model SA/4e, that runs pure class A. They all run hotter than , let's say the Adcom or Phase Linear amps do. The pure class A one runs hotter than the others. They have some pretty massive heat sinks to take care of the heat though. And even the class A amp does not throw off as much heat as the Audio Research tube monoblocs I tried out in my main system did.

The Stasis circuitry was a Threshold development, and aside from Threshold licensing the technology to Nakamichi for a line of high end amps in the 90's, it was exclusive to Threshold. They used lots of high current power transistors, 20 per side for a total of 40 in the S500, and 28 per side for a total of 56 in the SA/4e, and large capacity custom toroidal transformers capable of delivering twice their rated output for short periods of time.

This may require some research for me to get up to speed, should be enjoyable work.

Thank you @strindl

System: (2) NASs with 40TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Pre-Amp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV
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post #5138 of 5157 Old 07-12-2017, 06:46 PM
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Class D amplifiers, or any amplifier using a switching power supply, do not need as large filter (decoupling) capacitors because the capacitors are recharged many thousands of times a second instead of just 120 times a second for a conventional linear supply (e.g. full-wave bridge rectifier). Some class AB (etc.) amplifiers use switching power supplies.

Solid-state amplifiers of any class (A, AB, B, D, E, F, G, H are the ones I have seen for audio) do not need tubes. And tube amplifiers can be any of those same classes though I have personally not seen a class D-H tube amplifier.

A class-A amplifier is at best 50% efficient (in push-pull form; 27% single-ended) and in practice less, perhaps much less depending upon the power output. That means half the energy going into the amp is "wasted" as heat. Class B is close to 80% and AB amps I have measured run in the 60% to 70+% range at full power output (less at lower power). So still a lot of energy goes to heat. Class D amplifiers can be 90+% efficient, meaning only 10% is heating the room instead of driving the speakers. Modern class D designs are very competitive to more conventional designs and the early problems have been largely solved. You'd probably be hard-pressed to tell a modern class D amplifier from an AB design and in fact the AB might well lose in several areas.

Tubes are thermionic devices, meaning heat is used to generate the fields within the devices that make them work. So in addition to the heat generated depending on the amplifier class as mentioned above, there is a heater in each tube to make them work and that generates additional heat (and makes them even less efficient). My old tube amps were great heaters in the winter.

HTH - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #5139 of 5157 Old 07-12-2017, 09:48 PM
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Finally got the invoice for the Red Dragon Audio S500 stereo amp.

Cool running.
Hopefully it ships soon.
We'll see how it compares to a Crown XLS1500, B&K 7250 Ref II, and the Yaqin integrated tube amp I have.
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post #5140 of 5157 Old 07-12-2017, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Finally got the invoice for the Red Dragon Audio S500 stereo amp.

Cool running.
Hopefully it ships soon.
We'll see how it compares to a Crown XLS1500, B&K 7250 Ref II, and the Yaqin integrated tube amp I have.
I've never heard any of those amps. I have looked at the Crown lineup of power amps at my local Guitar Center multiple times. They do offer prodigious amounts of power at relatively low prices. Is there a catch to it? I know they are aimed at pro sound users for live sound etc. How do they stack up on a speaker like a Magnepan on a high end home system?

I do have some experience with pro PA systems, but have mainly used them for speakers at political events where portability was a big factor. I also recall back in the 70's when Crown made audiophile components that were sold at one of the local high end shops in town.

Main system: Thiel 3.6 L/R speakers, Pair of Velodyne F1500r subs, B&W HTM center, Emotiva and Polk RTi 28 surrounds, Integra DHC 9.9 pre/proc, Pair of Emotiva XPA-1's, Emotiva XPA-5, Threshold SA/4e, pair of Threshold S/200's, Oracle Delphi TT w Magnepan Unitrac 1 arm and Shure V15 - Vmr, Logitech Squeezebox Touch, Oppo BDP 83 optical disc player, Threshold T2 preamp, Denon DR-M44HX cassette, Pioneer CLD-97 Laserdisc. LG PF1500 led projector,Elite 100"tab tension-ed motorized screen.
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post #5141 of 5157 Old 07-13-2017, 09:21 AM
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... "maybe, but so what?"
Uh, because more knowledge is better than less knowledge.

It would be good to know that Maggies are not as fragile as those with less knowledge might assume. It would be good to know that at higher volume levels there's less concern about bass overload than those with less knowledge might assume.

Practically speaking in a Maggie + subwoofer + AVR application it might be worth experimenting with the Maggies set to large rather than small and using Extra Bass (feeding lows to both L/R + sub) and relying on their natural roll-off instead of the AVR's high-pass filter.

So, more knowledge can encourage more experimentation. Set and forget is for sissies.
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post #5142 of 5157 Old 07-13-2017, 09:43 AM
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The only really fragile thing about Maggies is the ribbon tweeter, but they do not have the linear excursion of a conventional driver (make up for it with area).

Maggies distort very badly when presented with large signals and particularly large bass signals. Like, 10's of percent, so I prefer to not run mine full-range. I have in the past but decades ago decided a sub provided much better overall sound. Magnepan actually frequently suggests running them full-range but to my ears and measurements they are much happier working with a sub a being rolled off an octave or so above their -3 dB point.

Experiment away, YMMV! - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #5143 of 5157 Old 07-13-2017, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strindl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Finally got the invoice for the Red Dragon Audio S500 stereo amp.

Cool running.
Hopefully it ships soon.
We'll see how it compares to a Crown XLS1500, B&K 7250 Ref II, and the Yaqin integrated tube amp I have.
I've never heard any of those amps. I have looked at the Crown lineup of power amps at my local Guitar Center multiple times. They do offer prodigious amounts of power at relatively low prices. Is there a catch to it? I know they are aimed at pro sound users for live sound etc. How do they stack up on a speaker like a Magnepan on a high end home system?

I do have some experience with pro PA systems, but have mainly used them for speakers at political events where portability was a big factor. I also recall back in the 70's when Crown made audiophile components that were sold at one of the local high end shops in town.
I've only used the Crown with a DIY sealed sub, so I can't really say how it does with an "audiophile" type speaker.

I've never heard of a pro style amp used with a Maggie speaker but I've heard of fairly good results with other speakers.

I'm on the fence and leaning towards Revel Performa3 series front 3 but the 3.7i and Philharmonic Audio "Phil 3's" are in the running as well.

The Red Dragon class D amps rate very well and I'm going to give one a go.
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post #5144 of 5157 Old 07-15-2017, 08:25 AM
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why does my strange Magnepan placement work?...or why shouldnt it?

....i was really struggling with the placement of the speaker panels in my 2 channel music room, seemed like i just couldnt get them far enough away from the walls and they almost wanted to sit in the center of the room....even if i had them over 8feet away from the back wall, i just didn't have the room width to get them any distance from the side walls; and the side walls were somehow kinda destroying a good 'sound stage' stereo image between the speakers....not that it was 'bad', it just wasnt 'great', or as great as i thought it could be....and i was continuously tweaking their placement and rerunning the pinknoise/eq...then always having to adjust the bass/mid/high parametric tone controls on the pre-amp for different types of music....i guess the whole system always sounded 'loose' and bouncy in my room

so one day i was reading how some people had turned their Magnepans around backwards(to "listen to the mylar side") and during the course of trying that, i also wanted to try lifting them up slightly off the floor about a foot and getting the panels perfectly vertical....and that helped some(I think mostly raising them and getting the tilt out so they were flat) which helped in my room

after trying like that for awhile, I decided I would rather look at the fronts....so went to turn them back around, but first rotated only part way back around and shoved them back into the corners out of the way so i could vacuum....had the vacuum running so turned up some tunes, then when i was done and putting the vacuum away i was like : "whoa, wait a second...that sounds good!" ....and started playing with the accidental placement i stumbled on, running the 31band pinknoise room eq produced the flattest(least amount of correction) curve I'd seen yet....and the center sound stage was not only fantastic, but the 'sweet-spot' listening area became huge..... i know there has to be some strange sound wave cancellation maybe going on, maybe, but I'm not getting a muddy or sloppy effect...and everything seems tight, refined, and clear...I no longer feel much/any need at all to fiddle with the tone controls for different volume levels nor styles of music....low frequency bass dips and peaks(caused by the room dimensions) have been smoothed out, and one spot in the room where there was a 50-80hz 'hot spot' is so much less now
....the far side of this room opens up into the rest of the house(stairway, open hallways, and on to other rooms) and often the music will run while we are further away in other rooms...and it still sounds even, full, and clear

...i dont want to get too particular about what my hardware is, or why this might only work in my room architecture or treatments....i just want to better understand a theory on whats going on here; with my megnepan panels at about a 45° angle coming directly out of the corners of my room
here is a quick drawing overview:




so i also want to know what happened with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmiller15211 View Post
.....

I'm at a point where I'm going to use the A21 and try the Magnepan tri-center approach after talking to Wendell at Magnepan:
* Split center signal, run both inputs into L and R inputs of A21
* Out of A21, run each into an input of a DWM.
* Out of one DWM high output into a CC5, and out of the other high output into parallel MC1s that go on either side of the screen (2 ohms at > 200hz, but Parasound said A21 should handle this).

Will check back in after I set it all up and experiment. Has anyone an empirical opinion on the tri center? My early experiments have been mixed.

....
yeah, i just posted about my 3 speaker center channel setup here Dual center channel speaker setup
its not nearly as complex as what you are doing(really arent you doing a total of 5 speakers including the two DWM bass speakers) and i dont have space for my Maggies in my HT room.....but i hope you were able to get some forfilling results like i did
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post #5145 of 5157 Old 07-15-2017, 10:12 AM
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So, a little update since everyone on here was helping me:

I ended up pulling a trigger on a pair of Parasound JC1 Monoblocks to match my Parasound A21 (stereo amp). I removed my wide channels and I'm trying to simplify my setup a bit and get better components, but less of them.

I'm at a point where I'm going to use the A21 and try the Magnepan tri-center approach after talking to Wendell at Magnepan:
* Split center signal, run both inputs into L and R inputs of A21
* Out of A21, run each into an input of a DWM.
* Out of one DWM high output into a CC5, and out of the other high output into parallel MC1s that go on either side of the screen (2 ohms at > 200hz, but Parasound said A21 should handle this).

Will check back in after I set it all up and experiment. Has anyone an empirical opinion on the tri center? My early experiments have been mixed.

With the upgrade and with the JC1 not having gain control, I'm thinking that my Emotiva XPA-2 that I was going to have running my one DWM for the L and R bass augmentation will be completely dwarfed by the JC1s and my fronts. To that end, my XPA-2 and extra DWM may be useless. Hopefully the JC1 power increase will improve the 3.7i bass enough that I don't need it. I may be selling more equipment (XPA-2, Gen 2, XPA 1L, Magnepan DWM w/Mye stand). Email: kurt at kurtmiller.net if you're interested.
I also have been intrigued by the tri-center approach and spoke with Wendell on how to set it up. He emphasized that one of the critical components is using a Bryston processor to make the "magic" happen, so I bought one (a 1.7 upgraded to 2.0) to play with. I learned a lot and had a great deal of fun playing around with Tri-center, but the physical layout ended up not working so well for me. I was thinking that there may be a group of forum members who want to see what the fuss is about, but don't want to commit to a somewhat expensive processor, so I thought about setting up a "chain" for forum members to trial the processor by "buying" it, then passing it on to the next buyer (no profit-taking allowed), presumably till it makes it to a forum member for whom Tri-center is a home run. What do you all think?

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post #5146 of 5157 Old 07-16-2017, 07:01 AM
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I'm enjoying the tricenter. With the amp upgrade to the A21 pushing my set of 4 speakers, it really sounds good with my MC1s mounted on the wall. One key to the setup is to have an amplifier with gain control, so that you can push down the volume on the CC5 center so it doesn't dominate the signal. That's what Wendell told me, and that matches my experience. I didn't think there was anything really special about Bryston, just have something that has power and gain control. I think that's just the first amp that Wendell tried that worked well, and they just stuck with it.

Re: Bryston amp sharing, I'm currently running the setup, so the amp sharing concept is really cool, but I don't think it's something that I'd be interested in at this time.

Re: Reversed maggies sounding great. The guy at Magnestand talks about this a bit and how they used to face backwards, but that's been changed over the years. See here: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue37/magnestand.htm.
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post #5147 of 5157 Old 07-16-2017, 09:47 AM
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I am considering two different AV power conditioners.

Belkin PureAV Home Theater Power Console -Black - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...f_rd_i=desktop - $300

APC H15BLK 12-Outlet H-Type Rack-Mountable Power Conditioner - https://www.amazon.com/APC-Rack-Moun...F0YY896NAG5Q84 - $250

But like many Native Americans I have my reservations. Is it a waste of $300? Would their be a double blind audible difference? Folks at Amazon report that when they tried to collect from Belkin on damaged AV equipment Belkin laughed at them.

There was a time, in my lifetime, when Pittsburgh was more industrial, when a steel mill would switch a blast furnace or coke oven off or on and everyone in the county would have their lights act weird. That is no longer the case.

Anyone have any experience or recommendations?

System: (2) NASs with 40TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Pre-Amp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV

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post #5148 of 5157 Old 07-16-2017, 10:37 AM
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I'm enjoying the tricenter. With the amp upgrade to the A21 pushing my set of 4 speakers, it really sounds good with my MC1s mounted on the wall. One key to the setup is to have an amplifier with gain control, so that you can push down the volume on the CC5 center so it doesn't dominate the signal. That's what Wendell told me, and that matches my experience. I didn't think there was anything really special about Bryston, just have something that has power and gain control. I think that's just the first amp that Wendell tried that worked well, and they just stuck with it.

Re: Bryston amp sharing, I'm currently running the setup, so the amp sharing concept is really cool, but I don't think it's something that I'd be interested in at this time.

Re: Reversed maggies sounding great. The guy at Magnestand talks about this a bit and how they used to face backwards, but that's been changed over the years. See here: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue37/magnestand.htm.
Agree with you that being able to adjust amplifier gain to balance the CC and side panels can make a big difference. Wendell didn't mention that when I spoke to him (figured that out myself), but he was pressed for time that day. He did emphasize that the Bryston processor was necessary to get the full benefit (something about the way Bryston implemented ProLogic). I've played with Tri-center using other processors, and I am convinced that the Bryston does something differently.
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post #5149 of 5157 Old 07-16-2017, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Timothy Wright View Post
I am considering two different AV power conditioners.

Belkin PureAV Home Theater Power Console -Black - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...f_rd_i=desktop - $300

APC H15BLK 12-Outlet H-Type Rack-Mountable Power Conditioner - https://www.amazon.com/APC-Rack-Moun...F0YY896NAG5Q84 - $250

But like many Native Americans I have my reservations. Is it a waste of $300? Would their be a double blind audible difference? Folks at Amazon report that when they tried to collect from Belkin on damaged AV equipment Belkin laughed at them.

There was a time, in my lifetime, when Pittsburgh was more industrial, when a steel mill would switch a blast furnace or coke oven off or on and everyone in the county would have their lights act weird. That is no longer the case.

Anyone have any experience or recommendations?
Both of those look good. They're not going to make a night and day difference in the sound of a good system, unless you have ridiculously bad power in your home. They will, however, keep your equipment safe and working well longer.
One difference I've noticed is the APC has the ability to boost the voltage when there is a power sag or brownout. I don't see that ability in the Belkin. For example, when my central AC kicks in there must be some voltage drop in my homes wiring, because I see the "line boost" light come on. You can see the difference on the insides of each of the products.
First, the APC H15


Note the large toroidal transformer in the center.


The Belkin PF60


Notice..no transformer


I've been using three of the APC H15's since 2009 and have been very happy with their performance. They have functioned perfectly, and when the line boost light comes on, it makes me feel better knowing my equipment is not getting less than the ideal voltage, even when my line power wasn't delivering it that way.

Main system: Thiel 3.6 L/R speakers, Pair of Velodyne F1500r subs, B&W HTM center, Emotiva and Polk RTi 28 surrounds, Integra DHC 9.9 pre/proc, Pair of Emotiva XPA-1's, Emotiva XPA-5, Threshold SA/4e, pair of Threshold S/200's, Oracle Delphi TT w Magnepan Unitrac 1 arm and Shure V15 - Vmr, Logitech Squeezebox Touch, Oppo BDP 83 optical disc player, Threshold T2 preamp, Denon DR-M44HX cassette, Pioneer CLD-97 Laserdisc. LG PF1500 led projector,Elite 100"tab tension-ed motorized screen.

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post #5150 of 5157 Old 07-16-2017, 07:04 PM
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@strindl

Thank you for the info & research. I only need one unit and I'll get it this month.

Timothy

System: (2) NASs with 40TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Pre-Amp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV
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post #5151 of 5157 Old 07-16-2017, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Wright View Post
I am considering two different AV power conditioners.

Belkin PureAV Home Theater Power Console -Black - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...f_rd_i=desktop - $300

APC H15BLK 12-Outlet H-Type Rack-Mountable Power Conditioner - https://www.amazon.com/APC-Rack-Moun...F0YY896NAG5Q84 - $250

But like many Native Americans I have my reservations. Is it a waste of $300? Would their be a double blind audible difference? Folks at Amazon report that when they tried to collect from Belkin on damaged AV equipment Belkin laughed at them.

There was a time, in my lifetime, when Pittsburgh was more industrial, when a steel mill would switch a blast furnace or coke oven off or on and everyone in the county would have their lights act weird. That is no longer the case.

Anyone have any experience or recommendations?
IME/IMO power conditioners are a waste of money unless you have a need. Of course, that caveat means everyone decides they have a need... I'd probably skip it at first. Note power conditioners will typically limit peak current so I would not plug a power amp into one. Because power is poor in my area (rural, frequent short to long-term glitches and power outages) I have PoS (point of service) UPS units on a number of things. They are there to ride out a short glitch and give me time to power everything off cleanly in the event of a longer outage. I also have whole-house transient surge and lightning protection since strikes are not infrequent.

Furmann, TripLite, and other more commercial/industrial suppliers also make decent power products for those who do need them. I have used APC for years and they are OK; switched to a CyberPower because it was a little cheaper for a cleaner AC output when running (BackUPS are fairly distorted but I only use them short-term; SmartUPS are cleaner but pricey -- I only have one SmartUPS, on my aquarium, since the distorted output can make motors run hot).

FWIWFM - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #5152 of 5157 Old 07-16-2017, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Wright View Post
@strindl

Thank you for the info & research. I only need one unit and I'll get it this month.

Timothy

Yup, one per system is all that's required. I have three separate audio systems and each is protected by an APC H15. I did get them really cheap back in 2009 though. I don't recall now which internet seller had them at 99 bucks...I think maybe it was TigerDirect.

Main system: Thiel 3.6 L/R speakers, Pair of Velodyne F1500r subs, B&W HTM center, Emotiva and Polk RTi 28 surrounds, Integra DHC 9.9 pre/proc, Pair of Emotiva XPA-1's, Emotiva XPA-5, Threshold SA/4e, pair of Threshold S/200's, Oracle Delphi TT w Magnepan Unitrac 1 arm and Shure V15 - Vmr, Logitech Squeezebox Touch, Oppo BDP 83 optical disc player, Threshold T2 preamp, Denon DR-M44HX cassette, Pioneer CLD-97 Laserdisc. LG PF1500 led projector,Elite 100"tab tension-ed motorized screen.
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post #5153 of 5157 Old 07-19-2017, 05:00 PM
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DonH50> SmartUPS are cleaner but pricey -- I only have one SmartUPS, on my aquarium, since the distorted output can make motors run hot).

I just purchased two today. I sleep with a Bi-pap, my APC UPS lasts 3-4 hours. Then I have to search the house in the dark for my other UPS and swap them out.

I called APC and found these on Amazon. They do not require 30A service and arrive this Friday. The second unit takes 5 batteries and I should be in excess of 4500VA capacity with both of them. For $942.31 total including shipping.


APC Smart-UPS 750VA 600W 120V Rack/Tower LCD Battery Backup Power Supply (SMX750) $421.99

APC SMX48RMBP2U Smart-UPS X-Series 48V Rack/Tower External Battery Pack $495.00


I like my stereo but my life comes first.

I happened by a Klipsch dealer today, nice guy, he had two speakers in his corners, each about the size of a refrigerator. They sounded good for 7w /ch each. He told me a pair cost $12,000. I can not find them on the Klipsch web site.

System: (2) NASs with 40TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Pre-Amp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV
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post #5154 of 5157 Old 07-23-2017, 04:22 PM
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Were they K-horns? http://www.klipsch.com/products/klip...anding-speaker

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I like my stereo but my life comes first.
We'll work on your priorities later... Seriously, good choice.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #5155 of 5157 Old 07-23-2017, 11:45 PM
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The speakers Tim described sure sound like K-Horns. I don't recall Klipsch having any other speakers that required a corner placement. It's been many years since I've heard a pair of those..probably not since the early 80's. I know I did listen to them before purchasing the Tympani Id's back in 1978 though. They were certainly impressive sounding although I ultimately decided I preferred the Magnepan sound for my home system.

Main system: Thiel 3.6 L/R speakers, Pair of Velodyne F1500r subs, B&W HTM center, Emotiva and Polk RTi 28 surrounds, Integra DHC 9.9 pre/proc, Pair of Emotiva XPA-1's, Emotiva XPA-5, Threshold SA/4e, pair of Threshold S/200's, Oracle Delphi TT w Magnepan Unitrac 1 arm and Shure V15 - Vmr, Logitech Squeezebox Touch, Oppo BDP 83 optical disc player, Threshold T2 preamp, Denon DR-M44HX cassette, Pioneer CLD-97 Laserdisc. LG PF1500 led projector,Elite 100"tab tension-ed motorized screen.
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post #5156 of 5157 Old 07-24-2017, 12:54 AM
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DonH50 & Strindl > Were they K-horns? http://www.klipsch.com/products/klip...anding-speaker

I could not find that on the klipsch web site when I looked but yes those are the puppies. His had a walnut finish. I liked how they sounded, they imaged well. They did require a corner placement and required a whole lot of floor space. We don't have to fight with everyone we meet, I had a very cordial visit.. The guy had worked in the recording industry for many years and had a good ear. Better than mine. He said that he did not like Magnepan speakers because of all the distortion? I saw no need to take the bait and pick a fight. Even if I loved his speakers I don't have an extra $12,000 for them.

I keep two large binders of CD dups in my pickup truck. After talking music for maybe an hour I thought since I was parked right outside I'd introduce him to a few of my favorite CDs. He was able to demonstrate to me many of the nuances of the recording process. For example on Don Shirley Classics the CDs were made from wax masters not tapes and the upright base was added later (not recorded at the same time as the piano). It was still an excellent recording. One learns a great deal when listening with someone else with a better trained ear. One can hear the difference in sibilance with sustained piano notes on tape vs LP. My CD was from a CD but the stereo recording was from 1959 and yes I could hear the effect he was talking about. The smaller K Horns were far less impressive. I intentionally left him with four CDs, my way of thanking him for his time. They are my favorite speaker test CDs and may make good demo CDs for his business. At the same time that exposes him to many recording acts he was unfamiliar with. (Five Blind Boys of Alabama on "Duets", Acappella, "List" by Rosanne Cash.)

I'm shopping for 400w /ch power amps but I tell you what a large klipsch can do with 7 watts is impressive although we never listened above conversational levels. He is obviously a tube guy, his tube preamp is about the size of a small clock radio..

Enclosed is a photo of my new $941 APC setup for my Bi-pap machine, already covered with dog hair. I should now have almost 14 hours run time on my Bi-Pap machine. My old 1500VA APC UPS got moved to the Bedroom TV .

Mr. Strindl, I get that you did not like "Sweet Honey from the rock" as much as I do. It is OK. I would like to know if it was the recording or the performance. I could learn something. Please share your thoughts about the CD. Thank you.
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System: (2) NASs with 40TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Pre-Amp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV

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post #5157 of 5157 Old Yesterday, 09:28 PM
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Compression drivers like those in the Klipschorns are capable of playing very loudly with very low distortion and little power (they are very sensitive/efficient). Horns have their issues but distortion and playing loud with a few watts are not among them. Paul Klipsch (quite a character, R.I.P.) had a saying about all he needed was a good 5 W amplifier...

At 10 feet away a pair of K-horns in the corners will generate about 104 dB SPL. A pair of Maggies will generate about 82 dB. To get the Maggies to 104 dB would take about 150 W. And the Maggies will indeed be generating much more distortion at that level. But, I'd still take my Maggies... To each his own.

"You do not need to blow out another's candle to light your own."
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