The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 08:19 AM
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Steve:

Cool, another Maggie owner in the ATL! What part of town are you in? I'm up in Gainesville, myself.

As for the Mye stands, I'll be happy to give you some feedback once I get them in. It's definitely good to have a healthy skepticism about any tweak, so I totally know where you're coming from. It makes intuitive sense to me that stabilization of the panels would improve the performance of the speaker, so I'm excited to get them hooked up and see what they do.

As for the Marchand, I'll just respond here so that if anyone else is curious, they can hear about my experience. If there's more info you'd like, just let me know and I'll be happy to take it to PM.

I used to read about people messing around with external active crossovers and I'd have no real idea what they were talking about. I knew what a crossover was, but I didn't know much about passive vs. active, slope settings, high pass, low pass, etc. I had read enough to feel confident that there would be sufficient benefit to using something like the Marchand, so I went ahead and called Phil to place my order. My strategy was to make this as much of a "plug and play" addition as possible. Magnepan specifies in the 3.6 manual the settings that would be needed for the crossover. So all I had to do was give this info to Phil Marchand, tell him which speakers I was using, and he built it for me to spec. Now I wasn't necessarily trying to obtain a sonic improvement....my goal was to make sure I had enough headroom to properly power these speakers. Several people on the audio asylum suggested that using two channels of my 5-channel Butler amp per speaker would likely be plenty of current for them. Just one channel of the amp had been exhibiting solid control over the speakers, so I felt pretty good about cranking them up once I had them bi-amped. So anyway, I take the L and R outputs from my stereo preamp and run them into the inputs on the Marchand. The Marchand splits the L channel signal into highs and lows, and the same with the R channel. I then take the four outputs (one high and one low per speaker) and run them into four channels on my Butler amp. From there it's just speaker wire from the amp to the speaker inputs. Very easy to set-up!

So that's basically it. The Marchand is transparent enough that it doesn't mess with the qualities I was already enjoying about my gear, and it allowed me to get more out of my amp and make sure I could crank the 3.6s w/out fear of clipping. I've been playing with my sound meter a bit during my listening sessions the past few days, and I'm hitting around 95db (Eminem) without any sign of strain. Things are really sounding good!

Hope that helps!
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post #92 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 08:44 AM
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PS. Steve, here's some interesting reading on the Mye stands in case you haven't seen this one yet.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...ccs&1231740811
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post #93 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.bradford View Post

I have never owned a pair of Martin Logans (although I have friends with them), but have had Quads, Acoustats, and Beveridge 2SW. To me there is simply no better top end than the 3 series ribbon.

I'll bite, what is a "3 series ribbon"?

And is a "3 series ribbon" somehow a part of some set of recent Magnepan speakers?

I mean, http://cgim.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/bb....zkoegck/DEqOP6 , when clicked on Magnepan, shows a list of 49 speaker models and 1 tonearm.

Which of the 49 speakers are you referring to with your "3 series ribbon" comment?

Quote:


While the electrostats have more slam on the low end,

No disrespect, but that's amusing to me.

"Slam" is not a word that I've ever associated with either of the two old Quad electrostats that I've owned.

But my planar experience is limited to two pair of Quad electrostat speakers of 15+ years ago, the original Quad electrostat and it's successor.

Quote:


the top end for me has always been tough to live with (beveridges were better than others here). They sound edgey on way too many recordings, and the dispersion characteristics always involve too much of a hot spot. Bottom line was I always grew tired of their sound.

The Maggie ribbons remind me of the old sequerra ribbons... but in a true line source. Very good dispersion, amazing detail and transient response, incredible energy, without taking your head off. They simply seem to do less wrong than any other speaker I have owned.

Your words have my attention, thank you.

I've got a new L/R cone pair coming in, but I'll get out and look into the size of the Maggie's that you are talking about.

Cheers

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #94 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

I'll bite, what is a "3 series ribbon"?

This is the HF driver used in any of the "3" series models, of which the current model is the 3.6R. There were also some "2" series models that had the ribbon driver, but that was some time ago. You can find a pretty comprehensive list of the various Magnepan models over the years (and which ones used the true ribbon drivers; as opposed to quasi-ribbons) at:

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M.../speakers.html

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No disrespect, but that's amusing to me.

"Slam" is not a word that I've ever associated with either of the two old Quad electrostats that I've owned.

I had two pairs of the original metal grilled ESL's as well. In HQD stands with sequerra ribbons. But I think you are confusing the word slam with quantity of output. I was referring to the "attack" and overall speed of the low frequencies, not the quantity or extension.
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post #95 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Summa View Post

Count me in among those who aren't all that fond of MLs. I REALLY wanted to like them, cause I loved their styling...but the fatigue I experienced was too much for my ears. I definitely agree about the "edgy" comment above....just not for me.

OK. You've got my attention.

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Maggies, OTOH...ahhhhhhhh


Hey!! Don't go too overboard!

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My Mye stands are in transit and should be here early next week...my Marchand crossover is up and running and allowing me to bi-amp with my Butler. I'm very happy with the sound I'm getting so far with my 3.6s, and I still have yet to get my DAC back into the signal path.

Properly set-up Maggies are amazing...I'm so glad I went back to them

I'll check out the size of the MG-3.6r speakers.

A'gon BB (BlueBook) shows a start of "00"

Are the 3.6r speakers still a current product?

If yes, are they worth buying used?

Quote:


...Aside from that, MMGs rule!

Would you also venture to say *that* for someone like me who mostly listens to 2 channel music, while well off axis?

i.e. while I'm working at my computer or reading a book.

Also, I just posted to s.bradford in this thread with similar comments/questions.

Cheers

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #96 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 12:53 PM
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How are the entry level maggies compared to the bigger ones? Do they sound similar, but with less volume capability and bass?

I'm looking at getting a used set of SMGc.
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post #97 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 12:58 PM
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The bigger Maggies have a warmer bottom end than ESL's, but you will rarely hear them sound more impressive than a good ESL in a showroom. That "wow" factor had me getting rid of my Tympani IIIA's (big mistake) back in the 80's in search of the incredible detail I heard from the Quads, and Acoustats, and finally even the Beveridges of the time.

But when I got them home I was constantly futzing with electronics and phono cartridges to try and balance that snap with more musicality. After almost ten years I gave up and came back to Magnepans (especially the then newer models with the amazing ribbons). I do not plan on straying ever again.

Considering how the prices of esoteric loudspeakers have skyrocketed over the last 15 years or so, the Maggies are not only one of the absolute best, they are one of the best bargains as well.
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post #98 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose View Post

How are the entry level maggies compared to the bigger ones? Do they sound similar, but with less volume capability and bass?

I'm looking at getting a used set of SMGc.

I have never heard the SMG's. I have a pair of MMG's for my surrounds and they can be amazing. I say "can" cause the little feet the ship with puts them on the floor, leaning back vertically, which is less than an ideal set up. But if you can get them off the floor and vertical (like the bigger ones) they are improved ten fold.

Here is one in the stands I built sitting next to an MGIIIA:



They will of course sound smaller, with less bass extension, and don't have the extended response of the true ribbons, but the quasi-ribbon is still quite good... and at the factory direct pricing on the MMG, it is a serious bargain provided they can be setup right in your room and you have a capable amp to drive them (they like lots of current - but are a purely resistive load).

I think the quasi-ribbon has much better top end then the old wired HF drivers of the MG-II models, and I believe the SMG's use this older technology as well.
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post #99 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Are the 3.6r speakers still a current product?

Yep!

Quote:


If yes, are they worth buying used?

Yes... they can last a long time if taken care of. A common problem with older ones or those exposed to a lot of direct sunlight is that the adhesive used in attaching the drive wires to the bass diaphragms decomposes and they delaminate. This can be hard to spot as the fabric covers are not easily removable. Maggies in this shape can be sent back to Magnepan to be relam'd for a pretty fair price, or if you are handy and patient you can do it yourself and Magnepan will send you the stuff you need.

Also note that the true ribbons are fragile (being VERY thin aluminum). They can be damaged easily if not transported correctly. Magnepan will replace a damaged ribbon for a hundred bucks, over even send you a roll of the ribbon material for much less so you can DIY... but while a have repaired delam'd wires before, I have never blown a ribbon and think I'd have Magnepan do the ribbon repair.

Quote:


Would you also venture to say *that* for someone like me who mostly listens to 2 channel music, while well off axis?

Think about it. The things run between 4 and seven foot tall, have good dispersion due to their line source design, and are true dipoles. They spread music everywhere (which can be a problem when placed too close to bright walls). I have mine about thee feet from the walls and actually have small ficus trees behind them to diffuse the back wave. In my room this is better than using absorptive material behind them.

When set up right they have a huge soundstage that expands well beyond the speakers, and amazing depth. A grand piano sounds like a grand piano. Big! Lush!
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post #100 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.bradford View Post

I have never heard the SMG's. I have a pair of MMG's for my surrounds and they can be amazing. I say "can" cause the little feet the ship with puts them on the floor, leaning back vertically, which is less than an ideal set up. But if you can get them off the floor and vertical (like the bigger ones) they are improved ten fold.

Here is one in the stands I built sitting next to an MGIIIA:

I really like what you've done with the MMG's, very nice.

I had MG11C's in the rear for a very long time, they look much like your MGIII's and have no ribbon of any type. The result must have been similar.

TURN IT UP!
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post #101 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Veech View Post

I am seriously considering buying a pair of MMGs to use as my main stereo speakers. In fact, I was at first looking for a pair of near-field monitors for some mixing I need to do, but have been advised that the MMGs are among the most transparent (i.e. colorless) speakers around, and would be the best choice for monitoring mix and EQ changes.

So first, have you folks who are using the MMGs as primary stereo speakers been generally happy with them? Are they really so neutral?

I plan to use them in a smallish room, and of the two possible setups one has them sitting 5 ft apart with me being 5 ft away, the other is having them sit about 8 ft apart with me being about 5 ft away. Is this too close-range for these speakers?

I am concerned about getting the proper amp to drive them, can you folks recommend something in the $200 - $250 range that is a good match for the MMGs? I don't need thunderous volume, as the room is small.

I listen mostly to rock and progressive metal. No bass-heavy hip-hop stuff but still needs some good bottom end, will a more powerful amp provide more bass or is a sub woofer required with the MMGs for rock? Or are they ok as is?

I love the idea of the "mini-Maggies" but apparently they aren't going to be available for a while.

thanks all!

I love my MMGs both in stereo and in HT. Don't buy if you are thinking cheap amp and you will need a decent subwoofer.
imu

at somepoint you stop the research and just buy it
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post #102 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veech View Post

have you folks who are using the MMGs as primary stereo speakers been generally happy with them? Are they really so neutral?

Yep! I used mine in the custom stands for two-three weeks while I was overhauling my 3's. They are very musical given proper setup.

Quote:


I plan to use them in a smallish room, and of the two possible setups one has them sitting 5 ft apart with me being 5 ft away, the other is having them sit about 8 ft apart with me being about 5 ft away. Is this too close-range for these speakers?

Not at all. The most important aspect of your setup is getting them away from your walls. They can be a very intimate speaker, but provide a huge soundstage; and you can get spoiled here.

Quote:


I am concerned about getting the proper amp to drive them, can you folks recommend something in the $200 - $250 range that is a good match for the MMGs? I don't need thunderous volume, as the room is small.

I listen mostly to rock and progressive metal. No bass-heavy hip-hop stuff but still needs some good bottom end, will a more powerful amp provide more bass or is a sub woofer required with the MMGs for rock? Or are they ok as is?

For rock you will need a good musical sub as even in the best setups they will not go below 50hz or so. As far as a great cheap amp to drive them... check out either the Behringer A500 or EP1500. I am using the latter to drive my 3's and it is a great match.
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post #103 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veech View Post

So first, have you folks who are using the MMGs as primary stereo speakers been generally happy with them? Are they really so neutral?

I was, but I didn't like them as much as my old MG-1b's (deceased) so when I could afford it, I bought a pair of 1.6QR's. To me, the MMG's were a bit "harsh" and the sound was a bit thin. The bigger Maggies are definitely an improvement.

Be seeing you!
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post #104 of 3922 Old 01-29-2009, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cctvtech View Post

I was, but I didn't like them as much as my old MG-1b's (deceased) so when I could afford it, I bought a pair of 1.6QR's. To me, the MMG's were a bit "harsh" and the sound was a bit thin. The bigger Maggies are definitely an improvement.

Might I be correct in assuming you are using a different amp with your 1.6's than your MMG's?
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post #105 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Summa View Post

Cool, another Maggie owner in the ATL! What part of town are you in? I'm up in Gainesville, myself...Hope that helps!

Yes it does, thanks!

And I'm in Kennesaw. I bought my 1st set of Maggies in Ohio back in '82 and for me, there is no other speaker.

When we 1st moved here, there was a A/V dealer in Marietta that sold Soundlab electrostats. Listening to those was uncannily real & the absolute best I've ever heard. Back in '93 those SL's sold for $3.5K. The same model today would probably be ~$18-20K in their line. The 3.6's come very close to what I remembered the SL's sounded on several reference recordings.

And like you, I've demo'd Martin Logan's several times - every time I've listened to them I come to the same conclusion - too harsh for me. I think they've become so popular & sold thru so many outlets that stores don't know how to set them up right or do stupid things like put them in a room full of glass - HiFi Buys (Tweeters) Kennesaw did that. The salesman was going on about how wonderful they sounded & all I wanted to do was flee! Dumb, dumb, dumb!

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post #106 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Yes it does, thanks!

And I'm in Kennesaw. I bought my 1st set of Maggies in Ohio back in '82 and for me, there is no other speaker.

When we 1st moved here, there was a A/V dealer in Marietta that sold Soundlab electrostats. Listening to those was uncannily real & the absolute best I've ever heard. Back in '93 those SL's sold for $3.5K. The same model today would probably be ~$18-20K in their line. The 3.6's come very close to what I remembered the SL's sounded on several reference recordings.

And like you, I've demo'd Martin Logan's several times - every time I've listened to them I come to the same conclusion - too harsh for me. I think they've become so popular & sold thru so many outlets that stores don't know how to set them up right or do stupid things like put them in a room full of glass - HiFi Buys (Tweeters) Kennesaw did that. The salesman was going on about how wonderful they sounded & all I wanted to do was flee! Dumb, dumb, dumb!

ss9001
Steve

Very cool! I'm out your way 3x per week - if not more - since I work at Kennestone. You lived in Ohio too, eh? I spent five years just outside of Cleveland as a kid (Eastlake, OH).

And I totally agree about speaker set-up...that's part of my motivation to do Maggies the right way now that I've gone back to them. When these things are given the right environment and supporting cast with which to shine, I just can't get over how enjoyable they are!
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post #107 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post



Hey!! Don't go too overboard!




Can't help it!

Looks like S.Bradford did a great job with your inquiries...so I'll defer to him!
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post #108 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I'd really like to know (objectively) what the Mye stands do for you. I have 3.6's for fronts in an all-maggie surround setup along with MC1's and a CC3. Read a lot of testimonials on the stands...but want assurances they provide more than a placebo effect

I have 3.6Rs fronts and 1.6QRs as rears, both of which are on Mye stands. I can't say that I've ever heard any sonic differences with the stands, but that isn't why I bought them. I like the greater stability and strength they offer over the stock configuration (for when the grandchildren come to visit). And I like the look of the Mye stands.
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post #109 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 10:18 AM
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I have a real tight situation & room placement is not good. The room I have to use has a large brick fireplace & hearth 7 1/2' wide, I have a Samsung 61A750 in the corner at an angle on a CWD stand. Right now I'm using Paradigm 9se's main, cc300 center & 7se's in back for music & HT. Equipment- Lexicon, Acurus A200x2 & A200x3, SVS 20-39 PC Plus Sub. The right 9se is on the hearth, left on a stand to match height- this one also sits in front of a large door jam for opening to dining room. I only have 12" between the screen edge & fireplace mantle on the right. If I went with MMGW's the right would have 12" behind it to the brick, left would would be about the same to the door jam but 1/2 of the back wave would also hit the left wall towards that corner. Because the space is so limited I thought I would try freestanding MMGW's & MMGC. Does anyone think this could work or have any other idea's ?. This room is also pretty dead having thick custom wood paneling & large area rug on hard wood floors. I've never owned Maggies but have had friends in the past that had Tympani ID's on AR Tubes & also 1 with MGII's on AR tube- awesome to say the least. I went from DQ 10's w/mods, to Sequerra Met 10 system I still have & now Paradigm's.
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post #110 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I'd really like to know (objectively) what the Mye stands do for you. I have 3.6's for fronts in an all-maggie surround setup along with MC1's and a CC3. Read a lot of testimonials on the stands...but want assurances they provide more than a placebo effect

Understand that Magnepan is not a tweak company. If they were their offerings would be priced many times higher than what they are. But there are quite a number of things that can be done to improve things.

One of them is simply related to construction. They're tall, thin, and reasonably heavy, and Magnepan does not take much care to lock the speaker down (they're a bit wobbly). Mye stands simply add mass and structural rigidity to the frame and feet, which simply makes it much more difficult for the speaker to move under its own power. This has a tendency to tighten things up all around.

In recent years their upper models (1.6 and up) have benefited from more substantial frame designs, but they're still supported by those stupid little T-bar feet which only attach to the bottom 6 inches or so of the frame.

Anything done to make the speaker's frame more rigid in space will have an improving effect. As to whether the listener will feel this is a groundbreaking improvement will of course vary depending on both them and their setup.
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post #111 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiga S2 View Post

I have a real tight situation & room placement is not good. The room I have to use has a large brick fireplace & hearth 7 1/2' wide, I have a Samsung 61A750 in the corner at an angle on a CWD stand. Right now I'm using Paradigm 9se's main, cc300 center & 7se's in back for music & HT. Equipment- Lexicon, Acurus A200x2 & A200x3, SVS 20-39 PC Plus Sub. The right 9se is on the hearth, left on a stand to match height- this one also sits in front of a large door jam for opening to dining room. I only have 12" between the screen edge & fireplace mantle on the right. If I went with MMGW's the right would have 12" behind it to the brick, left would would be about the same to the door jam but 1/2 of the back wave would also hit the left wall towards that corner. Because the space is so limited I thought I would try freestanding MMGW's & MMGC. Does anyone think this could work or have any other idea's ?. This room is also pretty dead having thick custom wood paneling & large area rug on hard wood floors. I've never owned Maggies but have had friends in the past that had Tympani ID's on AR Tubes & also 1 with MGII's on AR tube- awesome to say the least. I went from DQ 10's w/mods, to Sequerra Met 10 system I still have & now Paradigm's.

Tiga: If you think you can make the floor standing MMGs work, Magnepan does offer a 2 month in-home trial period. Might want to just play around with them and see what kind of results you can achieve. Also, if you decide to mount them on the wall (which can really look classy flanking a fireplace), I'd go with the MC-1s over the MMG-Ws.
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post #112 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Summa View Post

Tiga: If you think you can make the floor standing MMGs work, Magnepan does offer a 2 month in-home trial period. Might want to just play around with them and see what kind of results you can achieve. Also, if you decide to mount them on the wall (which can really look classy flanking a fireplace), I'd go with the MC-1s over the MMG-Ws.

Good point about the trial... forgot about that. If you avail yourself of it, be sure to have a couple of milk crates on hand. Set the speakers on them, and prop up the little D-ring on the back of their feet to get them as vertical as possible.

Sorry, I just don't recommend putting Magnepans on the wall (even the ones "designed" for it). As much as I love Maggies, I honestly think you can do better with satellites or in-walls under these circumstances.
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post #113 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by s.bradford View Post

Sorry, I just don't recommend putting Magnepans on the wall (even the ones "designed" for it). As much as I love Maggies, I honestly think you can do better with satellites or in-walls under these circumstances.


Tell that to THIS guy!
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post #114 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Summa View Post

Tell that to THIS guy!

In a dedicated home theater where your walls are padded, you will deal with most of the nasties you get from "too close to the wall" placement. In this case they will sound more like a point source speaker. But (IMHO) you loose so much more by not having the Maggie's rear wave introduced into the room by more desirable placement. For music I really think it a must.
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post #115 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 10:39 PM
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Thanks for the response guy's I appreciate it a lot. I thought about trying MMG's But they won't fit where I have the 9se's, if I put them on stand's on the floor the right speaker would block the view of the TV for anyone else sitting in the room -Be good for me though! My chair is in the center of the room facing the fireplace, other seating to my right & couch on the right wall. My thoughts were to try using 1x4's to mount them on first to see if they would sound alright, the left one beside the the left frame of the TV & right one on the hearth. My sitting distance right now from the 9's is 11ft & they have only 6ft between them- I wish I had more !. Do you think the Acurus amps will drive Maggies OK ?.
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post #116 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.bradford View Post

Good point about the trial... forgot about that. If you avail yourself of it, be sure to have a couple of milk crates on hand. Set the speakers on them, and prop up the little D-ring on the back of their feet to get them as vertical as possible.

Sorry, I just don't recommend putting Magnepans on the wall (even the ones "designed" for it). As much as I love Maggies, I honestly think you can do better with satellites or in-walls under these circumstances.

I'd love to have that Maggie Magic, I also got spoiled the other day listening to 1.6's & 3.6's at Audio Advice in Raleigh,NC. What really got me wanting to make a change is that the CC300 is not a match to the 9se's in openness or timbre, you can tell a big difference with pink noise across the front.

This may not be the place to ask this so forgive me, I also thought about Ascend Sierrs'a across the front, but don't know if they would be an improvement over the the Paradigm's if I can't make Maggies work, any thoughts on these or other options ?
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post #117 of 3922 Old 01-30-2009, 11:44 PM
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yesterday i head a magnepan for the first time at inland home theatre sound, and oh my gosh, it has the most realistic, pleasing sound i have ever heard. I have never been this impress in a speaker before, the sound was amazingly airy and transparent as if i was there in the concert live.
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post #118 of 3922 Old 01-31-2009, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiga S2 View Post

Do you think the Acurus amps will drive Maggies OK ?.

Yep
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post #119 of 3922 Old 01-31-2009, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datranz View Post

yesterday i head a magnepan for the first time at inland home theatre sound, and oh my gosh, it has the most realistic, pleasing sound i have ever heard. I have never been this impress in a speaker before, the sound was amazingly airy and transparent as if i was there in the concert live.

Congrats on your first exposure to a truly great speaker
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post #120 of 3922 Old 01-31-2009, 06:37 AM
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Hello friends,

I enjoy my MMGs both for stero and HT. I currently have some cheap Insignias as Center and surrounds. My sub is a klipsch Sub10. All with Yamaha 661 and Emotiva UPA-7.

Any recommendation for center and surrounds? The surrounds have to be mounted on side walls. How is the MMG-C with the MMGs?

Thanks in advance,
imu

at somepoint you stop the research and just buy it
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