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post #181 of 3683 Old 02-04-2009, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

With 3.6R's, the crossovers are external. You would just unplug the external crossover boxes and run speaker wires from your amps into the high and low inputs on the speakers themselves.

Preamp -> Marchand -> Power Amps -> high/low inputs on 3.6's.

Other magnepan models have internal crossovers but you shouldn't have to do anything for 3.6's.

Thanks. That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure if there was some additional internal XO components in addition to the XO boxes on the 3.6Rs. And I don't have my owner's manual here to check. It looks like I'm good to go in that case.
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post #182 of 3683 Old 02-04-2009, 05:57 PM
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Duh, I knew that. You're right, of course. Oh, well, I would have to open my 1.6QR's up, though.

Be seeing you!
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post #183 of 3683 Old 02-04-2009, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cctvtech View Post

Duh, I knew that. You're right, of course.

It's not nice to further confuse an already confused old man.
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post #184 of 3683 Old 02-05-2009, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgmerrill View Post

I think I'm going to follow in Summa's footsteps and give bi-amping and a Marchand active crossover a try on my 3.6s instead. It won't be the same, but it'll keep me out of trouble for a while.

Yeah, definitely won't be like going to a 20.1 (my dream speaker!), but I'm very happy with the dynamics I've achieved with my 3.6s, and I THINK some of that has to do with the Marchand/active bi-amping. I've never heard drums reproduced as realistically as what I'm currently hearing...I used to play the drums, and the authority of the reproduction is very authentic. I've also had a problem with other speakers sounding very cluttered with certain music passages get very busy with many instruments playing concurrently. This was one area that frustrated me with the MMGs, but I never felt right complaining about it too much since it was a $550 speaker, lol. But currently I'm getting a soundstage that extends beyond each side wall, vocals typically centered nicely, and a nice separation among the instruments. Even some of my orchestral stuff (I use the Star Wars Ep.III soundtrack as my reference) is much improved over both the MMGs and the DeVores. I'm going to put a little more current into the bass panels soon when I add the more powerful version of the Butler amp I'm currently using (love the Butler stuff!), but I'm really close to the sort of sound I've been chasing for a while now.

And yeah, all you have to do is detach the passive crossover boxes on the 3.6s and replace it with the Marchand. A passive crossover still remains between the midrange and tweeter, but you'd have to do Maggie surgery to bypass that one. The instructions for two-way biamping are in the 3.6 manual (you can download it from the Magnepan site now) and it's very easy to do. Also, Phil Marchand is a great guy to deal with. He'll likey even throw in another crossover module to play around with should you be interested in trying out something different than the settings Magnepan recommends.
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post #185 of 3683 Old 02-05-2009, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Those 3.6's are magic. I have to say though, that going from 3.6's through a slew of cone speakers and ending up with some 1.6's, the 1.6's are no slouch. If my room were bigger, I'd get some more 3.6's, but I am space challenged in my current environmnet. Oh well, I'll move again in a year or two and maybe then I'll have a big enough room to go back to the 3.6's.

Do any of you drive your mags with tubes? I'm running a conrad johnson premier LS17 with a Parasound Halo A21 and the sound is wonderful. I used to use a Musical Fidelity TriVista 300 to drive my 3.6's and was in hog heaven. I ended up buying another MF Trivista 300 to see how it compared to the cj/parasound rig with the 1.6's and ended up preferring the cj/parasound combo. I never knew what I was missing until I put that MF in the chain with the 3.6's though. I think tubes complement the mags very well.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #186 of 3683 Old 02-05-2009, 10:18 AM
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I've got tubes in my signal path, yep. That's why I love my Butler amps so much...I love the hybrid concept...the "balls" of solid state plus a touch of warmth and richness from the tube stage. I really didn't know a lot about tube gear when I started looking into it a couple of years ago, but I heard a lot of people saying that things can sometimes get "too tubey". One of the qualities I like my system to exhibit is transparency, but as with anything else, too much of a good thing can become not so good...and too much transparency can lead to sterility. So what I did was try and focus on gear that allowed me a nice balance, and I think that's what I've accomplished.

I honestly think that people are just not thrilled with the aesthetics of the Butler amps, cause otherwise people must be nuts not to be using these more with Maggies. I honestly thought I was going to have to sell the Butler and pick up some massive SS amp for the 3.6s, but that hasn't been the case at all...it's been the exact opposite. I had contacted Mr. Butler about the match, and he told me that he actually used to run shows with Magnepan, so he was very familiar with the synergy between the products and thought it was some pretty tremendous sound. Well, I agree!

But yeah, so far my experience with tubes and Maggies is a match made in heaven....I'll never go back to strictly SS gear.
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post #187 of 3683 Old 02-05-2009, 12:11 PM
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Summa:

Did you get the CC3 yet ?

I'm curious to hear from you on how it sounds for home theater with the 3.6's.
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post #188 of 3683 Old 02-05-2009, 03:51 PM
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Neekos: It's arriving tomorrow. I'll be sure to chime in tomorrow night after I've had a few hours to play around with it.
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post #189 of 3683 Old 02-05-2009, 05:39 PM
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OK
Thanks
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post #190 of 3683 Old 02-05-2009, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neekos View Post

OK
Thanks


I've got Band of Brothers on BD and DTS-MA just waiting to blow up my front stage

EDIT: Okay, I'm not really sure what kind of marks to give the CC3 yet, cause I THINK this may be the first time I'm really hearing DTS-MA. Band of Brothers is sounding dynamic as HELL...and there's no way the center could have made this much difference. Just this week I added a BD player with analog outs and internal decoding so that I can continue using my current pre/pro, and I haven't really watched anything with a high rez soundtrack until now.

I'm watching a scene where US officers are walking on the upper floor of a German home, and the way the steps sound is so realistic that you can actually get a sense of the damn floor board construction lol. In another scene, a soldier threw a whiskey bottle into a metal trash can and it sounded like it was right here in the room. I know these are strange examples, but this is what I've always loved about Maggies...you hear so much detail that it really convinces you you're in the scene. Right now a group of soliders is walking in formation through the grass, and I can hear the grass "scrunch" beneath their feet with each step.

I dunno about the center yet...so far after calibration it seems to be blending quite well... but what I DO know is that I'm starting to think that Maggies + High Rez Audio is about as good as it gets! The friggin soundstage is HUGE and I don't even have any surrounds going.
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post #191 of 3683 Old 02-08-2009, 01:53 PM
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Any Maggies owners have experience with the SMGa? I'm thinking about getting a pair of SMGa as my HT mains. Would appreciate your comments before I pull the trigger.

Thank you.
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post #192 of 3683 Old 02-08-2009, 07:10 PM
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tkc: A lot of Maggie owners consider the SMGs to be even better than the MMG, which is the current model and considered by many - including myself - to be the best value in all of audio If you've got a proper amp for them, I think you'll be quite happy given the asking price.
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post #193 of 3683 Old 02-08-2009, 07:44 PM
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To throw gasoline on the simmering coals... Now Mapleshade makes stands for Maggies.
They don't have them on the web page yet, but they did have pictures in the last catalog I got from them. Probably airdried and hand picked/listened and carved one piece from a single Maple tree.
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post #194 of 3683 Old 02-08-2009, 07:50 PM
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Summa, I'm now considering bi-amping as well.
But I have a few questions too.
(for anyone)
Is anybody here using switching/digital amps? I'm looking at Red Dragon Leviathans, they use ICE technology. (No, I don't know exactly what that means, got it from the web page)
Also was wondering if anybody tried the 200 watt Vincent monoblock hybrids.
I'm using the Rogue Monoblock 150's singularly now.
Has anybody tried a passive crossover ? Or is that a dumb question?
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post #195 of 3683 Old 02-08-2009, 07:57 PM
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post #196 of 3683 Old 02-08-2009, 08:41 PM
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That's ridiculous! Nearly half the price of the 1.6's and nearly 1-1/2 times the price of the MMG's for stands? Well, at least they're made from "gorgeous old-growth Ambrosia maple, lovingly finished with hand-rubbed lacquer." Of course, since the Maggies are made of "cherry, natural or black hardwood trim", maple is the obvious choice of wood for a stand.

I do like some of their "Free Audio Upgrades", though:

"For a test, sit on one or two phone books: you'll hear an amazing new warmth and fullness in baritone voice, trombones, tenor sax, plucked bass—and a far more natural treble balance." Is that New York City phone books?


"Lift all speaker, power and interconnect wires 8" off any non-wool carpet or plastic tile. " Of course, they sell "Cable Lifts" for $12 each: "carpet is a huge mass of low quality insulation (dielectric). It absorbs and smears energy from the field around the wire." Good snake oil there!

And my personal favorite:
"You can't believe the extra harshness and grunge you hear due to home appliances "poisoning" the AC power with electrical noise. To really sweeten your sound, try turning off every fluorescent and halogen light in the house, as well as air conditioning, oil burner, electric stove, dimmer and CD boombox; unplug every surge protector, digital TV, computer and U.P.S. (because they all have "sleep" modes). No power conditioner and AC filter stops this "poisoning"."

You'll hear even cleaner sound if you turn off the main breaker in the house!

Be seeing you!
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post #197 of 3683 Old 02-08-2009, 09:07 PM
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I'm not saying the Mapleshade stands make a difference, but I WILL say that their products are always of excellent quality. I've bought a few items from Pierre, and the stuff is build amazingly well. He offers money back guarantees/in-home trials on everything he sells - including the CDs!

Keith: I haven't used the gear you mentioned, and not really sure about the idea of a passive crossover since I'm still pretty new to this whole thing myself I would post your question on the Magnepan Users Group http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/bbs.html
There's always someone there who's done or thought about doing the exact same thing you're thinking of...they're cool like that

I will tell you that my early results on biamping have been positive...I'm glad that I did it
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post #198 of 3683 Old 02-09-2009, 06:05 AM
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I haven't tried lifting the speaker wire "trick" yet, I might. I have heard this rumor/thought kicked around other places too. Sure they sell stuff to do it, but this is something one can try without much cost to see if it works for you. I must admit I can be especially gullible about things I am new to or uninformed about. Yes looking for scientific proof/evidence is always an indicator that something may work. However, whether it is humanly perceptible can be another matter.

Just 2 addages/cliches to keep in mind....

1. ( probably have this quote wrong , but the point is the same) "there are lies, damn lies and then statisics"...

2. (and I'm sure there is probably some science that disproves this, but again it makes a point)...."scientists have studied the bumble bee for years and have come to the conclusion that it can't fly. However, the bee doesn't know this and somehow it does fly."

So the 2 points are, logic and facts can be manipulated to prove a point and just because science hasn't proven that something can happen doesn't mean it can't. We/they just haven't figured it out yet.
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post #199 of 3683 Old 02-09-2009, 06:11 AM
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Summa, thanks for the link I'm going there now to make my queries!

Also, I think I misspoke (typed?) I said considered passive, I meant considered or used "active" corssovers. I believe a passive crossover IS what you are doing "a fixed freq point" and active would be an adjustable one, like a sound mixer.

Keith
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post #200 of 3683 Old 02-09-2009, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith944T View Post

2. (and I'm sure there is probably some science that disproves this, but again it makes a point)...."scientists have studied the bumble bee for years and have come to the conclusion that it can't fly. However, the bee doesn't know this and somehow it does fly."

So the 2 points are, logic and facts can be manipulated to prove a point and just because science hasn't proven that something can happen doesn't mean it can't. We/they just haven't figured it out yet.

It's a total myth, albeit a persistent one.

And just because science hasn't explained a particular phenomenon yet isn't any kind of justification for magical thinking.
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post #201 of 3683 Old 02-09-2009, 11:40 AM
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All I'm saying is just because one can't substantiate a "phenomenon" doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and on the other side of the coin...There was once a spherical planet whose scientists insisted it was flat.

And I just thought, I think many problems would never get solved without "magical thinking"
I think many answers are conjecture and the science follows.
Also known as theory, postulation and proof.

Without the magical thinking first, we don't get anywhere.
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post #202 of 3683 Old 02-09-2009, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith944T View Post

All I'm saying is just because one can't substantiate a "phenomenon" doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and on the other side of the coin...There was once a spherical planet whose scientists insisted it was flat.

And I just thought, I think many problems would never get solved without "magical thinking"
I think many answers are conjecture and the science follows.
Also known as theory, postulation and proof.

Without the magical thinking first, we don't get anywhere.

Also a myth. Scientists insisted no such thing.

Most problems are solved through reason - inductive and deductive. Magical thinking has nothing to do with the scientific method of discovery.
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post #203 of 3683 Old 02-09-2009, 12:15 PM
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"There is a correlation between psychosis and magical thinking. It has been found that those who scored highest on magical thinking showed a predisposition to psychosis (Eckblad & Chapman, 1983). Research has also shown that paranormal beliefs, including magical thinking, are correlated with people experiencing psychosis from schizophrenia and bipolar disorder (e.g., Thalbourne and French, 1995)."

Below are some examples:


Pure AC power makes a huge difference in sound. Power cords and/or conditioners have the potential to really purify AC power. But lots of audiophiles try expensive “garden hose” cords and hear little difference. They’re right, 9 out of 10 expensive cords are misdesigned: too much copper (the fatter the wire, the slower the current transients); too much insulation (more dielectric = more smearing); and huge, bad-sounding plugs (hospital grade are the worst). Similarly, the famous top dollar conditioners go to great lengths to filter out AC line garbage— BUT their heavy-handed filter electronics slow down transient current delivery. That spells dull dynamics, dull music.


Laying speaker cables, interconnects, and AC power cords on an artificial fiber carpet will immediately dull the sound of your stereo. And that’s true for all makes and models, not just our Clearview wires. Unfortunately, the carpet is a huge mass of low quality insulation (dielectric). It absorbs and smears energy from the field around the wire. The effect is pretty grim, making music sound both dulled and harsh. A simple, ear-tested solution is to raise the cables off the carpet by at least 8 inches. That’s exactly what our good-looking, maple Triad (designed by Marcia Bauman) does.


You can’t stop static from building up on plastic. Your CDs, DVDs, LPs, and the insulation on your audio wires are definitely not exempt. The field associated with this static can muddy the sound of your greatest CDs and LPs, or your most expensive cables. To unlock their full sound potential, you need to neutralize that static. You’ll hear an easily discernable increase in treble clarity, spaciousness, and delicacy of quiet musical details.

The most effective and least expensive way to neutralize static is a 20 second zapping with our Ionoclast. It’s audibly better than the much more expensive Furutechs, Bedinis, Zerostats, or high-powered tape demagnetizers—the difference is not subtle. Using a piezo-ceramic spark generator, our Ionoclast produces a stream of positive and negative ions to do the neutralizing.

You’ll need to zap your discs every 5 or 10 plays. You’ll hear even more improvement when you zap your speaker cables, interconnects, and power cords. And, the Ionoclast will perfectly neutralize static on your favorite LPs.


Good idea. Zap your cables and you'll have:



Sorry, I just can't resist debunking myths, and mapleshaderecords.com is full of pseudo-scientific nonsense. I see no harm in employing their stands and who knows, maybe they do improve the Maggie sound. But on the other side of the coin, I find it difficult to keep a straight face when a company sells products of highly questionable efficacy like the examples listed above. It makes me skeptical about everything else they sell.

Be seeing you!
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post #204 of 3683 Old 02-09-2009, 10:13 PM
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OK so it was the religious guys insisting it was flat.

You don't think lots of people thought the idea of man flying or going to the moon was magical thinking? or is that myth too?

You seem to be hung up on my examples/stories /myths rather than the point.
Which is... that facts can be manipulated and sometimes things happen that we don't understand.
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post #205 of 3683 Old 02-10-2009, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith944T View Post

You don't think lots of people thought the idea of man flying or going to the moon was magical thinking? or is that myth too?

You seem to be hung up on my examples/stories /myths rather than the point.
Which is... that facts can be manipulated and sometimes things happen that we don't understand.

I don't think you quite have a grasp on what magical thinking is.

Cable elevators are not one of those things that we don't understand.
Being a scientist, I can appreciate an open mind, but there is a danger in being so open-minded that one's brain falls out. It makes one all too easy prey for the hucksters and charlatans of the world. And there's no shortage of those in the audio hobby, apparently.
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post #206 of 3683 Old 02-10-2009, 06:57 AM
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I understand what both of you guys are saying, but when it comes to Mapleshade, once you hear the quality of the recordings alone, you gain an open mind with regard to what else Pierre has to say about audio reproduction. Combine that with the fact that he's a certified genius, and the fact that you can return ANYTHING after trying out for a month, I don't really feel there's a lot of room for being critical of this company. Now unfortuately most of the music offered through them isn't really my bag - save for the ARC choir recordings...AMAZING! - but I do use several of the cuts as reference, and I will continue to always listen to Pierre's ideas.

But anyway, why aren't we talking about Maggies?? I'm loving life over here, dudes!! This is by far the happiest I've ever been with my system, and I still have a few more upgrades/additions to make within the next 30 days. It's literally taken me years to get to this point, but it's all been worth it. This is a system I could be happy with for many years to come
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post #207 of 3683 Old 02-10-2009, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Summa View Post

I understand what both of you guys are saying, but when it comes to Mapleshade, once you hear the quality of the recordings alone, you gain an open mind with regard to what else Pierre has to say about audio reproduction.

But anyway, why aren't we talking about Maggies??

I'm not familiar with the company, but if the products that cctvtech posted are typical Mapleshade fare, an open mind is not a very likely outcome on my part. That crap is just plain silly.
If this character is such a genius then his ideas and products should stand up to testing and peer review, no?
He would also be hailed as a genius within the field of physics for having uncovered hereto unknown principles. Unfortunately for Mapleshade and its potential Nobel candidacy, this stuff has been thoroughly debunked time and time again.

Because, as with far too many Magnepan threads, it's been sidetracked with audio woo and has presented very little in the way of substance. I would much rather be discussing the real world - room treatments, speaker placement, speaker model comparisons, EQ, etc. - than waste my time on mysticism and superstition.
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post #208 of 3683 Old 02-10-2009, 08:49 AM
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Mapleshade strikes me as a somewhat schizoid company. On the one hand, summa says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summa View Post

...once you hear the quality of the recordings alone, you gain an open mind with regard to what else Pierre has to say about audio reproduction.

On the other hand, they have some weird ideas about audio "tweaks". It kind of makes me wonder if "Pierre" uses his own tweaks for his studio? I sure hope he doesn't go around "zapping" his microphone cables, at least while they're connected.

Meanwhile, I'll keep an open mind about stands, which is the subject that started this thread off track.

Be seeing you!
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post #209 of 3683 Old 02-10-2009, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cctvtech View Post

Meanwhile, I'll keep an open mind about stands, which is the subject that started this thread off track.


Getting back to the design principles of something like the Mye stands and to the point of them making any audible or measurable differences (and please note this is not for the benefit of our resident "Scientist" or his colleagues who seem more than content to sit in their ivory towers exclaiming "myth" or "woo" when it comes to time tested loudspeaker design principles they simply do not understand, but to those that are still contemplating the question)... doppler distortion, phase modulation distortion, and modal baffle vibrations are real world considerations in speaker design. They have been measured and documented by the likes of Paul Klipsch, Siegfried Linkwitz, John Kreskovsky, Rod Elliot, and many others for years if not decades. In fact, a main reason for the invention of the multi-way loudspeaker system was to isolate the relative excursion in drivers to particular frequency ranges to minimize the modulation effects on the shorter, more affected wavelengths from the larger excursions needed to reproduce lower frequencies.

Moreover, the Magneplanar's two dimensional design, along with its rather large dimensions, offers very little in the way of structure to control the energy generated by the moving mass of the low frequency driver. So what happens to this energy? It is transmitted quite efficiently to the panel (baffle) itself, resulting in movement. This is a fact... and you can measure it yourself with less than twenty bucks worth of office supplies. You'll need some good adhesive tape (I used gaffer's tape), a laser pointer, a pencil, and some graph paper.

You'll need to firmly attach the laser pointer to the top of the speaker, pointing its spot on the wall behind the listening position. Tape the graph paper to the wall underneath the laser's dot, and now crank up the tunes. You'll see substantial deflection of the dot. And if you're willing to pull the ribbon connection covers from the speaker, you will also see that the vibration introduced into the panel itself is also affecting the movement of the aluminum ribbon. Now disconnect the bass output from the external crossover and notice the change in the movement of the ribbon.

So there are two issues here. Intermodulation of the ribbon induced by panel resonance/vibration, and a non-linear back and forth motion of the entire panel (non-linear as the deflection is more severe at the top of the speaker than at the bottom).

At this point, for those of you that do not believe that the intermodulation and phase modulation components introduced by the movement you have observed will not be measurable, you may as well stop reading now and retire to your own ivory tower. They are measurable and, in fact, have been measured in single drivers let alone when a HF driver is so affected by the rather significant baffle movement caused by the LF driver in this case. For those of you entrenched in vinyl playback, it is not unlike a poorly mismatched cartridge and tonearm where the compliance of the stylus/motor assembly and the mass of the tonearm result in a resonance in the audible range, or one so low that you end up with a warbling effect. Clearly vibration introduced by the stylus movement itself, and reintroduced to the cantilever by the movement of the supporting structure, can severely impact the sound.

The point being that IF the Mye stands offer a noticeable reduction in the deflection previously observed, and/or serve to better control the panel's vibrations, their effect WILL be measurable. I won't go into whether or not "you" will hear a difference as that depends on many things, but I wanted to point out that the design concept of better "locking down your maggies" is not snake oil, but based on valid, time tested loudspeaker engineering concepts that will in fact offer measurable improvements.

Note that I don't own Mye stands, nor am I affiliated in any way with the product. I have simply done my own mods to address the above issues and have been impressed with the results... and, to be honest, get a little annoyed at some folks with their preconceived notions that claim to have made "tests" to arrive at their conclusions when in fact none were actually done.

Ok... I know this horse is probably long done, but I couldn't resist another lash or two. For those considering bringing more detail to their 3 series maggies, I still think this a viable and non-invasive mod, and worth considering. If you have doubts, try the measurement and observe your ribbons at the louder end of the spectrum you listen.
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post #210 of 3683 Old 02-10-2009, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by s.bradford View Post

Getting back to the design principles of something like the Mye stands and to the point of them making any audible or measurable differences (and please note this is not for the benefit of our resident "Scientist" or his colleagues who seem more than content to sit in their ivory towers exclaiming "myth" or "woo" when it comes to time tested loudspeaker design principles they simply do not understand...

Yet more nonsense concerning an argument that was never made - complete with scary quotation marks, no less. And still no concrete evidence forthcoming, I see. Tilt at windmills often?
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