The Official Magnepan Owners Thread - Page 73 - AVS Forum
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post #2161 of 3736 Old 01-31-2012, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

If you plan on driving them with a receiver, better get a lot of spare fuses.

I don't know about that.

I'm driving my 1.6QR's with an NAD t785HD and haven't hit clipping or blown any fuses at as high a volume as I can handle. I used to have a pair of MG1b's and drove them with a Crown DC-300 (150WPC/8 ohm). That occasionally blew tweeter fuses.

The 1.6QR's with the NAD driving them are definitely superior. I'm not sure how much of that is the speakers and how much the amps but I can vouch that they go plenty loud with no distortion.

Be seeing you!
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post #2162 of 3736 Old 02-01-2012, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied View Post

No he isn't and neither are you.

I don't care about generic amp discussions with a bunch of people who have never even heard a 3.X series Maggie inserting their preference for countless amps I wouldn't care about based on a 12 X 12 room and a Klipsch surround sound setup.

I posed the question here to specifically solicit input from owners of Maggies who have direct experience with my speaker's impedance curve, hopefully in a room of similar volume.

Not to be the forum police here, but the discussion was moving towards the very thing you did not want and not the specifics pertinent to Magnepan speakers.

How do Emotivas mate with Magnepan speakers is important to you and should be discussed here. Issues about the reliability of the amps are also important. However, we (IMO) were starting to move from those points which DonH50 noted.
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post #2163 of 3736 Old 02-01-2012, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

One of the interesting things about Maggies, or any planers, is that the panel is subject to deflection modes or "ripples" when playing. Controlling those takes a pretty low output impedance and makes Maggies a little harder to drive than their relatively flat (no, it's not purely resistive, but pretty close) impedance curve would imply. I have almost always found it takes a real beast of a tube amp to even approach the bass from a SS amp. Sad but true, at least to me, and I had a nice ARC/Counterpoint bi-amp set-up before getting my Emotiva. I still miss that gorgeous tube midrange, but the bass is a lot tighter with my new amp.

I've never heard Mags with a tube amp. My old dealer tried to convince me for a while to biamp with a tube amp for the highs and a SS for the lows but it seemed like too much work for me. I really do like using a tube preamp and solid state amp with them though.

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Originally Posted by cctvtech View Post

I don't know about that.

I'm driving my 1.6QR's with an NAD t785HD and haven't hit clipping or blown any fuses at as high a volume as I can handle. I used to have a pair of MG1b's and drove them with a Crown DC-300 (150WPC/8 ohm). That occasionally blew tweeter fuses.

The 1.6QR's with the NAD driving them are definitely superior. I'm not sure how much of that is the speakers and how much the amps but I can vouch that they go plenty loud with no distortion.

Quite possible. Your NAD is higher power than mine was. I don't know how different the load presented is between a 3.6 and and 1.6, if any. Not all receivers (or amps for that matter) are created equal and yours is pretty high end. Have you tried an external amp with more power to see if there is a difference?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #2164 of 3736 Old 02-01-2012, 07:21 AM
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My old MG-IIIa's, still in use today after 25+ years, spent most of their life bi-amped (active crossover, "passive" bi-amping is new and strange to me). Tube mid/high amp, and hybrid (tube input, MOSFET output) bass amp, plus an active (servo) subwoofer. I know the tubes were more colored but loved the sound anyway. Finding a bass amp to match was frankly a PITA and took a lot of trial and error (mostly the latter). There is such a wide range of overlap that the amps need to match fairly well, and phase/time alignment can be a challenge. The combo I ended up with worked well together, but did not provide the sort of bass various SS amps that rolled through during my trials (mostly high-end, ML, Krell, etc.) I developed a taste for SS but at that time did not want to give up my tube amp (ARC D-79). When I restarted I checked prices, decided I was orders of magnitude from buying new gear in the same class as my old, and did not want the time, money, and hassle of rebuilding my old gear so bought a new AVR, Emotiva's to drive the Maggies, and decided to sit back and listen to the music (and movies) instead of the equipment. Haven't looked back.

Bi-amping can be great but takes a lot of effort (and some decent test gear) to implement properly, IMO. I am dissapointed the new 3.7 and 20.7 dropped that feature, but in retrospect it's probably a good thing and saves me from yielding to temptation.

My wish list for now would be a new pair of 3.7's or 20.7's to replace my aging IIIa's, and maybe a nice Bryston to drive them... At around $1k to rebuild and $5.5k - $15k to replace, I am hoping my old Maggies hold out a while longer and will keep the Emo's. I have kids to get through college, a big mortgage, and a desire to retire before I am 143...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2165 of 3736 Old 02-01-2012, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Have you tried an external amp with more power to see if there is a difference?

No. Although I could afford to go that way, there are a number of limitations. Space in my cabinet, power on the wall and the big one... a wife!

Be seeing you!
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post #2166 of 3736 Old 02-02-2012, 07:37 AM
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I have a pair of 1.6QRs and a pair of 2.7QRs. I normally used them with a vintage 80wpc Sony V-FET integrated amp which powered the speakers fine... But I upgraded to another vintage Sony 200wpc amp and there was a BIG difference in sound, even when listening at the same volume. The bass went deeper and the soundstage was more expansive. The sound was more open and relaxed, it made the 80 watt amp sounding compressed, although you would enver notice it without trying it with a higher powered amp later. That proves one thing... Maggies need a LOT of power to sound their best...

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #2167 of 3736 Old 02-02-2012, 08:35 AM
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Question for the Mag experts.

I am considering an upgrade of my front soundstage from an entry level pair of Klipsch speakers to the Magnepan 1.7's (used at a very good price).

Can someone tell mel how these perform for Home Theater. I am used to higher SPLs with a higher sensitivity speaker, so what differences/trade-offs am I going to have to make?

I have an older pretty beefy Onkyo 805 135W amp driving my klipsch right now.
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post #2168 of 3736 Old 02-02-2012, 09:15 AM
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Your amp will likely poop out at higher SPL's (How high is high for you?) when used with the 1.7's. You may even blow a fuse or two if it starts to clip. Do you have multiple speakers? If so, then there may be some noticeable differences in tonality.

But if you are prepared for an adventure, get the 1.7's and slowly build a top notch system around them. Used prices for receivers and smaller maggies are pretty good. So you could have a really good system in a few years (or months).
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post #2169 of 3736 Old 02-02-2012, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eiger View Post

Question for the Mag experts.

I am considering an upgrade of my front soundstage from an entry level pair of Klipsch speakers to the Magnepan 1.7's (used at a very good price).

Can someone tell mel how these perform for Home Theater. I am used to higher SPLs with a higher sensitivity speaker, so what differences/trade-offs am I going to have to make?

I have an older pretty beefy Onkyo 805 135W amp driving my klipsch right now.

You would be in for a radical change. Both good and bad.

On the one hand, Maggies will never have the dynamics of a horn loaded speaker. At 86 dB sensitivity, Maggies are just never gonna come close to a Klipsch with 100 dB sensitivity. And an 8 ohm high sensitivity speaker can get by with much less robust (read cheaper) amplification. With Maggies, you will either run out of power or blow a fuse before you match the high dynamics of a horn. You may be disappointed with the 1.7's if your primary goal is home theater action movies and you're accustomed to Klipsch.

On the other hand, even expensive Klipsch horn designs are like ear drills for me after living with ribbon tweeters for years. I honestly can't stand the treble range from horn loaded tweeters. Maggies have a beautiful midrange and treble. And Maggies create a realistic soundstage that's addictive. In a not too large room, 1.7's with a robust amp may sound just fine to you. But do expect to spend more for a power source to drive them.

And as someone else mentioned, if your plan is to mix Maggies with horns in a 5.1 / 7.1 home theater you'll have a huge mismatch in sensitivity and spectral balance to contend with. Maggies can be mixed with cones n domes but I wouldn't try it with inexpensive Klipsch boxes.
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post #2170 of 3736 Old 02-02-2012, 06:38 PM
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Note the 86 dB sensitivity rating is for 2.83 V into 4 ohms; that's 1 W into 8 ohms, not 4... Referenced to their 4-ohm impedance, they are only 83 dB/1 W/1 m.

From Klipsch to Magnepan is a huge change. You very well may love the Maggies, and your system should drive them OK, but you should definitely listen before purchase.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2171 of 3736 Old 02-02-2012, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Note the 86 dB sensitivity rating is for 2.83 V into 4 ohms; that's 1 W into 8 ohms, not 4... Referenced to their 4-ohm impedance, they are only 83 dB/1 W/1 m.

From Klipsch to Magnepan is a huge change. You very well may love the Maggies, and your system should drive them OK, but you should definitely listen before purchase.

I think one thing that would need to be discussed when measuring sensitivity and sound pressure is the directionality of the source

You can get a very efficient speaker, simply by narrowing the 'beam' of the projected sound, think megaphone

Also consider due to the size, that the Maggie's are more like a line source vice a point source
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post #2172 of 3736 Old 02-03-2012, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied View Post

On the other hand, even expensive Klipsch horn designs are like ear drills for me after living with ribbon tweeters for years. I honestly can't stand the treble range from horn loaded tweeters. Maggies have a beautiful midrange and treble. And Maggies create a realistic soundstage that's addictive. In a not too large room, 1.7's with a robust amp may sound just fine to you. But do expect to spend more for a power source to drive them.

And as someone else mentioned, if your plan is to mix Maggies with horns in a 5.1 / 7.1 home theater you'll have a huge mismatch in sensitivity and spectral balance to contend with. Maggies can be mixed with cones n domes but I wouldn't try it with inexpensive Klipsch boxes.

I don't care for horns either. I certainly wouldn't mix horns with planars. My fronts are not particularly sensitive either but find that they get plenty loud enough for me using Emotiva amplification.
I have several reasons for not going the planar route including the problems of what center to use and the amount of space they require behind them. I love the sound of Maggies and believe their reduced sensitivity something I could easily live with especially with amps that deliver 300 watts into 4 ohms.
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post #2173 of 3736 Old 02-03-2012, 04:45 AM
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About a year ago I took out the front three speakers of my Klipsch HT setup and replaced them with 1.6 Maggies. My room is about 15x15 and while my Yamaha RX-V3900 was able to drive them it was generating a lot more heat doing so than I was comfortable with. I augmented the amp with a Crown XLS 1000 which is rated @ 350 watts into 4 ohms. I've never had the fan come on and have swapped it with a friends XPA2 but wasn't able to detect any difference in how the system sounded in my room/my levels/my music ;-) I also don't have a center channel now nor the desire for one. I'm running a 100" screen and the phantom channel follows the actors from side to side on the screen which is an effect I was never able to achieve with an active center. I've kept the Klipsch surrounds and backs and don't seem to have issues with that. I mainly listen to music in stereo mode so not having a matching suite isn't an issue. I'm also running three subs, a sealed Rythmik 12" in the center and two non servo sealed 12"s positioned to the inside edge of each panel. The effects have plenty of kick and the dialog is intelligible which wasn't always the case before. I don't miss the pressurization and as an added benefit when I close the door to the HT the sound seems to stop.
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post #2174 of 3736 Old 02-03-2012, 08:50 AM
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I am somewhat contrarian in regards to Maggie's

I think any reasonably good avr can drive them loud enough in normal room at least with 1.7s

Also, as long as the speaker isn't parallel to the wall behind it, I don't feel it needs to be way out from that wall

I have the cc5 center with the 1.7s for fronts, and while phantom center is very effective the ccx center gives a wider sweet spot for dialog

Agree with the post about clear dialog and I find that along with music to be big part of listening to movies

With a sub, movies have more than enough rumble for me

However, if moving lost of air is your primary goal for enjoyment then there are better speakers for that
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post #2175 of 3736 Old 02-03-2012, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

I think one thing that would need to be discussed when measuring sensitivity and sound pressure is the directionality of the source

You can get a very efficient speaker, simply by narrowing the 'beam' of the projected sound, think megaphone

Also consider due to the size, that the Maggie's are more like a line source vice a point source

Agreed.

Magneplaners tend to send more of their energy forward and backward, less to the sides or floor/ceiling, which I agree helps their effective efficiency in the listening room. Not sure it changes the actual sensitivity number, however (based upon output SPL at 1m for a given input).

A number of planer speaker (mainly electrostatic) manufacturers do emphasize the improved efficiency a line source'ish panel provides over a conventional speaker, typically claiming 3 - 6 dB higher output at typical 3 - 4 m listening distance. This does help offset the lower sensitivity number.

In the real world this means higher power for volume comparable to conventional dynamic speakers is not necessarily needed.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2176 of 3736 Old 02-03-2012, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I may not be following fully. Would you guys be implying that SPL's don't drop off by the same 6db per doubling of distance as cones? Presumably because the sound waves are more "focused"?

Should be fairly easy to test with an SPL meter.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #2177 of 3736 Old 02-03-2012, 04:20 PM
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That is correct. Get far enough away, and far-field takes over so you get the same drop, but at typical listening positions and confined by room boundaries planer speakers drop off closer to 3 dB for each doubling of distance because they radiate "straight ahead" instead of "everywhere". This does depend upon the room, however.

And yep, you can measure it with an SPL meter, assuming you have a conventional speaker and a planer in the same spot to measure.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2178 of 3736 Old 02-03-2012, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I may not be following fully. Would you guys be implying that SPL's don't drop off by the same 6db per doubling of distance as cones? Presumably because the sound waves are more "focused"?

Should be fairly easy to test with an SPL meter.

A point source expands as a sphere

A line source as a cylinder

Also you could achieve a high spl directly in front of s speaker by funneling the sound at the expense of not having much sound to the sides or above and below

In antenna design you would talk of beam width I am not sure what the term is for speakers but horns tend focus sound
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post #2179 of 3736 Old 02-03-2012, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

That is correct. Get far enough away, and far-field takes over so you get the same drop, b.

In don't think far field makes a difference, I think in near field the math is very messy
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post #2180 of 3736 Old 02-03-2012, 06:04 PM
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Hmmm... It's been a long time since my grad acoustics class, and IIRC the math was very messy everywhere, at least when new to a college kid! I got decent at nonlinear wave equations, for at least a semester or two (not now).

I don't think you can really reach far field in a normal room so it's a moot point.

My career was mostly spent designing data converters and associated RF/IF/baseband components for radars; beam width I actually understand. Sort-of. Barely. Dispersion is usually used for loudspeakers (and microphones).

I'll drop out; been too long since I dealt with the equations, and we're wandering a bit (interestingly, though!)

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post #2181 of 3736 Old 02-03-2012, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I may not be following fully. Would you guys be implying that SPL's don't drop off by the same 6db per doubling of distance as cones? Presumably because the sound waves are more "focused"?

Should be fairly easy to test with an SPL meter.

Although I never measured it, when I owned a pair of SMGs back in the early 80s I did notice that when walking up to either speaker the volume didn't seem to increase like it does with a "conventional" speaker. It was as if sound pressure level was more even throughout the room with the SMG as compared to a conventional speaker.

Sometimes I miss those little SMGs.

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post #2182 of 3736 Old 02-04-2012, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Hmmm... It's been a long time since my grad acoustics class, and IIRC the math was very messy everywhere, at least when new to a college kid! I got decent at nonlinear wave equations, for at least a semester or two (not now).



I'll drop out; been too long since I dealt with the equations, and we're wandering a bit (interestingly, though!)


I think if you are close to a line source, the distance sound travels from various spots on the line a point source listener varies while if you are far far away, it is essentially the same, hence simpler to analyze

Also, far far away , all the sound is coming at the same angle vice very close

That is the extent of my knowledge

No grad school acoustics for me

I think it is germaine because Maggie's are said to be inefficient but there is more to the story than measuring spl at a single spot 1 meter from the center of a speaker at 2.83v input
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post #2183 of 3736 Old 02-04-2012, 02:40 PM
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Alright, one last quickie, a very simplified explanation not completely in line with my old textbook but hopefully close enough to close this out for the non-acoustics majors (which includes me; my career took another path). I am not trying to be rigorous; I am sure others can and will be.

A planer radiator has very little radiation except in the direction of (perpindicular to) the plane. So, a planer dipole like Maggies or 'stats radiates mostly straight ahead, and straight back. There is little energy directly to the sides (or top and bottom). One advantage is that first reflections from walls, floor, and ceiling tend to be less an issue.

A conventional speaker has virtually no back wave (since the driver's bacak side is inside the cabinet) and more or less in a complete circle from the front (a hemisphere or cone depending upon the wavelength).

As a result, more energy from a planer speaker is directed at the listener, while the conventional circular cone radiates (disperses) its energy in a wider pattern and thus less goes straight at the listener. This means the planer speaker delivers more energy at the listener than the conventional driver for the same acoustic output at the radiator. This helps offset the typically low efficiency planer speakers exhibit.

This is easy to see with an SPL meter. Pick a nice midrange tone (perhaps 500 - 1500 Hz) at measure the level perhaps 1' to 3' in front of the speaker. Now mesaure the SPL at the sides and top, plus maybe 45 - 60 degress off-axis. Do for a planer and conventional driver, making sure the initial measurement is the same for both. This provides a simple polar plot of the dispersion pattern. Of course, room interaction can make this harder to see; you could do it outside in a field.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2184 of 3736 Old 02-08-2012, 05:00 AM
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Feedback please.

I have a 7.2 Def Tech system with subs driven by UPA 7 amp. I want to try the MMGs (2) to replace the side surrounds (M5).

Would the music/HT totally different? Good? Bad?

Thanks.
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post #2185 of 3736 Old 02-08-2012, 11:36 AM
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Do you mean MMGW (wall-mounted)?

Whilst I love my Maggies (7 of 'em, plus a pair of Rythmik subs), I suspect having just the one pair of dipoles for surrounds would integrate poorly. That said, it would probably give the surround channels a much more spacious feel (reviewer-speak ) so you might have "a more immersive experience" (see previous parenthetical comment).

It could also lead to a substantial upgrade in the rest of your speakers....

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2186 of 3736 Old 02-18-2012, 03:42 AM
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Whew, a lot of information to take in. Just made it through, front to back. A few questions for those using Maggies for home theater. Is anyone using them behind an acoustically transparent screen? Most configurations I see have them off to the side or under (for the center).

The MC1's, of course, will be doing surround duty, but i'm also thinking of the dual center option as well. It seems like no one is using three floorstanding models across the front. This may go back to the fact that I haven't seen any acoustically transparent screen set ups. Are there any drawbacks to this configuration (3 floorstanding across front)?

I also saw a picture/post of a floorstanding model mounted horizontally. Would this work if I have the distance from the back wall and the ability to mount it higher, possibly centered behind the screen or at ear level?

Lastly, I'm planning on having two rows of four seats, maybe three seats on the back row, due to the possiblility of the view being obstructed by the MC1 being swung out. Going by Magnepan's recommendations, the rear side surrounds would basically be betwwen the first and second rows. I know the speakers are dipole, but will having the rear side surrounds, basically in front of the rear seat listeners, be problematic?

Oh, forgot, floorstanding models...go with the highest model you can afford? I'm in Mississippi, so demoing prior to purchasing is pretty much out. I could, possibly, go as high as the 3.7's, but 1.7's or below are probably best for the budget/marriage.

Thanks for your help/suggestions in advance.
Leland
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post #2187 of 3736 Old 02-18-2012, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I had some 1.6's behind an AT screen. I built the screen to be able to flip up to the ceiling though so I didn't have it in the way for music listening. AT screens attenuate the treble a few db's which can be equalized out. Woven is better for sound than microperf. For movies, it worked fine and I was happy that I could slide the screen out of the way for music.

Three across the front would work but the mags do not have a lot of horizontal dispersion so using a regular mag as a center might not be best for all seats in your theater. You'd be better off using a center from Magnepan. If you can afford it, the center with MMGW looks interesting. The Tricenter approach.

Where in MS are you? If close to Memphis, Underground Sound used to sell Mags. Not sure if they still do but I bought my 3.6's there years ago and I know they were still selling them around 3 years ago.

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post #2188 of 3736 Old 02-18-2012, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlelandj View Post

Whew, a lot of information to take in. Just made it through, front to back. A few questions for those using Maggies for home theater. Is anyone using them behind an acoustically transparent screen? Most configurations I see have them off to the side or under (for the center).

The MC1's, of course, will be doing surround duty, but i'm also thinking of the dual center option as well. It seems like no one is using three floorstanding models across the front. This may go back to the fact that I haven't seen any acoustically transparent screen set ups. Are there any drawbacks to this configuration (3 floorstanding across front)?

I also saw a picture/post of a floorstanding model mounted horizontally. Would this work if I have the distance from the back wall and the ability to mount it higher, possibly centered behind the screen or at ear level?

Lastly, I'm planning on having two rows of four seats, maybe three seats on the back row, due to the possiblility of the view being obstructed by the MC1 being swung out. Going by Magnepan's recommendations, the rear side surrounds would basically be betwwen the first and second rows. I know the speakers are dipole, but will having the rear side surrounds, basically in front of the rear seat listeners, be problematic?

Oh, forgot, floorstanding models...go with the highest model you can afford? I'm in Mississippi, so demoing prior to purchasing is pretty much out. I could, possibly, go as high as the 3.7's, but 1.7's or below are probably best for the budget/marriage.

Thanks for your help/suggestions in advance.
Leland

You might consider the mmc2 paired with a dwm woofer

I'd be tempted to put the a cc5 speaker behind the screen as it is curved and seems to project horizontally better

I think the smaller speakers. Make a tidier setup for home theater

For music, the big Maggie's are hard to beat and if you listen to music a lot and watch movies with the same setup that can be a god way. Tomgo

I personally don't think the larger speakers need to be way out in the room, as long as they are angled with respect to the wall behind

3.7 vs 1.7? Only you can answer that question
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post #2189 of 3736 Old 02-18-2012, 07:33 PM
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I'd definitely get a CC5 and mount it, probably above the screen, to fill in the center and provide a wider pattern to cover the seats. If it will fit on a CC SpeakerStand on the floor beneath the sceen, even better, but I wonder if the first row will block the center on the floor.

What size room? Can you draw it and post?

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2190 of 3736 Old 02-18-2012, 09:30 PM
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I'd definitely get a CC5 and mount it, probably above the screen,

Here is what I did.
LL
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