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post #2251 of 3928 Old 04-11-2012, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post


Driving what now??? Do you have an AVR, a switch box, or what? How are you driving the amp? If you already have an AVR or switcher with volume control you don't need another preamp.

I thought about it some more and decided to go with an Integrated amp such as the Nad375BEE or the McIntosh 6300 which will be drived with an old Marantz S5300 AVR
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post #2252 of 3928 Old 04-13-2012, 05:57 PM
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Getting ready to light up my new tube monoblocks mated with a pair of the MG20's and a Sunfire Classic Tube preamp. I was wondering if anyone out there is using tubes on Maggies, and what do you think of the combo?
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post #2253 of 3928 Old 04-13-2012, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I love a tube preamp and a solid state amp for Mags. That's the only way I will ever feed Mags again.

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post #2254 of 3928 Old 04-13-2012, 08:31 PM
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Been there, done that, with a variety of electronics tubed, SS, hybrid, in various combinations over the past few decades. I prefer SS amps as well for their better control and stronger bass. My last setup I did like, however: ARC SP3a1 preamp, ARC D79 on my MG-IIIa's mid/tweeter panels, and Counterpoint SA220 on the bass, with a homebrew servo sub. When I rebuilt my system a few years ago I added an AVR and Emotiva amps and have been very pleased.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2255 of 3928 Old 04-13-2012, 10:12 PM
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I always thought tubes were dumb period but especially so for an inefficient and current hungry speaker like Maggies. Low output, high noise and distortion, degraded performance over time, outrageous prices. In short, overpriced outdated technology. Even tube preamps where you don't have the load and sensitivity worries of a speaker attached tend to color the sound with distortion. If you like the distortions, enjoy. I'll stick with reliable solid state gear that's less colored and more stable over time.
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post #2256 of 3928 Old 04-15-2012, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklan2 View Post

do i need to have a splitter from my avr to the subwoofer?

For what you are trying to accomplish (Maggie tri center), conventional set-up will not work at all. You need to tell your AVR that you don't have the sub! Once you do that, you cannot use sub output on the AVR to get the .1 LFE channel to your sub. Instead, you need to feed the entire signal to your sub via speaker outputs (if your sub has such connections) or via pre-outs on the AVR. Then on the sub you need to set the cut off frequency to essentially capture just the LFE channel.

Your FR and FL speakers are set as full range, and they will augment the missing center channel bottom end that CC5 cannot reproduce. That way, the image will still be anchored properly to the screen. I realize that this set-up has a lot of compromises. For starters, you need the front main speakers to be able to handle the full signal including the LFE channel. Then you need to fiddle with sub hook-up.

Let me offer another suggestion. If you have the space and can provide suitable amplification, it would be better to purchase a pair of MMG speakers to use as dual mono center channel flanking the screen at about 30 degrees. See the wiring diagram in MC-1 manual. You would do the same with MMG. They are excellent speakers, and will play comfortably down to 60 Hz, which is more than you need for center channel. Then, wire your CC5 in parallel to MMG. The resulting impedance will be about 3 Ohms, and you need decent center channel amplifier to accommodate that. However, you would no longer have to fiddle with the sub. You could specify your speakers as small, and filter everything below 80 Hz or 60 Hz to the sub. With sub properly in the system, the LFE channel would go only to the sub. MMG have enough bottom end to augment CC5 just fine.
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post #2257 of 3928 Old 04-16-2012, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklan2 View Post

i got a problem with system/speaker integration of magnepan based on their recommended set-up. my system are as follows:
1) magnepan 1.6 set as large
2) magnepan cc5 set as small
3) magnepan mmg set as small
4) subwoofer emotiva ultra 12 (powered)
5) amplifier emotiva mps 1
6) receiver denon avr2105
7) monitor panasonic g10

i follow the instruction of magnepan that during the system/speaker integration especially with cc5 i have to set my receiver with no subwoofer and do the pink noise test also to set the crossover from 150-250hz. my problem with this kind of set-up is i missed the .1 or those explosion from the movies or musical dvd.
any suggestion or recommendation is highly appreciated.
thank you very much.


I came back to this post because your subsequent posts concerning new equipment became confusing. Is the above list your current configuration or have you changed it? Does your Denon have any sort of automatic equalization like Audessy?

SDV5s recommendations are good but requires a lot of steps. I think you should discuss this with your Magnepan dealer. There may be a simpler solution. If not, follow his recommendations carefully and double check your work.
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post #2258 of 3928 Old 04-16-2012, 07:52 AM
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Just a guess here, but shouldn't you turn the sub back on after running the pink noise calibrations?

Be seeing you!
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post #2259 of 3928 Old 04-16-2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied View Post

I always thought tubes were dumb period but especially so for an inefficient and current hungry speaker like Maggies. Low output, high noise and distortion, degraded performance over time, outrageous prices. In short, overpriced outdated technology. Even tube preamps where you don't have the load and sensitivity worries of a speaker attached tend to color the sound with distortion. If you like the distortions, enjoy. I'll stick with reliable solid state gear that's less colored and more stable over time.

While agreeing with much of this, it's a little over the top IMO. My old tube preamp measured something like 0.001% THD and IMD at 2 V output and had no hiss at the listening position (though lower SNR than my best SS preamps, about the same as several mid-range components).

Tube amps do tend to have higher distortion, but still less than most speakers, and Maggies are a pretty benign (if inefficient) load. IME, the biggest difference is in the bass, where the higher power and lower output impedance of SS amps helps.

As for reliable, well, let's just say both tubes and SS have their issues...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2260 of 3928 Old 04-16-2012, 01:53 PM
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I had the Conrad-Johnson MV60se with my 3.7 and it sounded fine. In the meantime I bought a Moon W5.3RS which has much better control over the Maggies, especially in the bass! But I am also missing a bit of the midrange, well, lets call it 'magic' :-)
I could imagine a tube amp again in the future but with more power, grip and tighter lower end, may be a CJ Premier 12 will do just fine ? I do think also that the 3.7 have a kind of 'musicality' which even much more expensive speakers just seem to be missing ! For my taste many 'modern' designs sound lifeless and too far on the pseudo 'precision' side... Any thoughts about those issues? Greets to everyone
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post #2261 of 3928 Old 04-16-2012, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sdv5 View Post


For what you are trying to accomplish (Maggie tri center), conventional set-up will not work at all. You need to tell your AVR that you don't have the sub! Once you do that, you cannot use sub output on the AVR to get the .1 LFE channel to your sub. Instead, you need to feed the entire signal to your sub via speaker outputs (if your sub has such connections) or via pre-outs on the AVR. Then on the sub you need to set the cut off frequency to essentially capture just the LFE channel.

Your FR and FL speakers are set as full range, and they will augment the missing center channel bottom end that CC5 cannot reproduce. That way, the image will still be anchored properly to the screen. I realize that this set-up has a lot of compromises. For starters, you need the front main speakers to be able to handle the full signal including the LFE channel. Then you need to fiddle with sub hook-up.

Let me offer another suggestion. If you have the space and can provide suitable amplification, it would be better to purchase a pair of MMG speakers to use as dual mono center channel flanking the screen at about 30 degrees. See the wiring diagram in MC-1 manual. You would do the same with MMG. They are excellent speakers, and will play comfortably down to 60 Hz, which is more than you need for center channel. Then, wire your CC5 in parallel to MMG. The resulting impedance will be about 3 Ohms, and you need decent center channel amplifier to accommodate that. However, you would no longer have to fiddle with the sub. You could specify your speakers as small, and filter everything below 80 Hz or 60 Hz to the sub. With sub properly in the system, the LFE channel would go only to the sub. MMG have enough bottom end to augment CC5 just fine.

Or you could add a dwm to the cc5
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post #2262 of 3928 Old 04-16-2012, 08:43 PM
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True, except that most people with LCD or Plasma display have no place to put DWM woofer. CC5 covers from 200 Hz up. DWM covers frequencies below 200 Hz. Sounds down to 80 Hz can be easily localized, which requires DWM to be located directly below the screen. You cannot place it to the left or right. And DWM is 19.25 inches high. This means that you need to mount CC5 above the screen and cannot have any electronics below the screen because they would be obstructed by DWM. IMO, this set-up is way more involving (and way more expensive) than two MMGs flanking the screen in dual mono configuration.
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post #2263 of 3928 Old 04-16-2012, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cctvtech View Post

Just a guess here, but shouldn't you turn the sub back on after running the pink noise calibrations?

The sub needs to be always on. It's just not connected the usual way. Instead of using sub output and setting up filter frequency on the AVR, Maggie tri-center requires that the sub be disabled in the AVR set-up, so that full range signal is fed to FR and FL speaker, with CC designated as small. The sub is then fed full range signal from speaker terminals or pre-outs, and sub output dialed down using crossover dial on the sub.

When calibrating the system, you would play test tones the way it's normally done. You would use sub's power control to adjust signal level.

My recommendation is to avoid all this by providing decent range CC speaker. That CC speaker is MMG in dual mono configuration, which blends really well with MG 1.6 mains. Adding CC5 to make tri-center in combination with MMG is optional. It certainly helps based on all accounts, but it does require a CC amp capable of handling a 3 Ohm load or separate amp for CC5 alone.

BTW, Sound Anchors stands are really required for MMG used as center channel. They raise MMGs off the floor so that they can flank the TV screen properly.
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post #2264 of 3928 Old 04-16-2012, 09:18 PM
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What about the CC Speaker Stand? A CC5 plus the CCSS is about 27" - 28", which is not all that tall. My problem is not height but I have components in the cabinet under my LCD that I don't want blocked, plus I need some way to damp the back wave... I do not have the width nor way to mount* MMGW's (or another pair of MC1's) as the center speaker, but fortunately the narrow width means my CC3 and MG-IIIa's provide a nice front sound stage. - Don

* I could put them on stands to solve the mounting problem, but still lack width in my small room.

I do wish there was a way to reach 50 Hz or so in a decent-sized Maggie center.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2265 of 3928 Old 04-16-2012, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Been there, done that, with a variety of electronics tubed, SS, hybrid, in various combinations over the past few decades. I prefer SS amps as well for their better control and stronger bass. My last setup I did like, however: ARC SP3a1 preamp, ARC D79 on my MG-IIIa's mid/tweeter panels, and Counterpoint SA220 on the bass, with a homebrew servo sub. When I rebuilt my system a few years ago I added an AVR and Emotiva amps and have been very pleased.

I second the Emotiva with the MMG's. Gets the bass going in those little puppies. I would have called myself a died in the wool SS guy, but got hooked on $99 Quickie tube DIY pre. Modded the crap out of it, but thats the whole idea. They keep it real simple for tweaks. I think tubes in the pre adds a nice balance to the Emotiva.
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post #2266 of 3928 Old 04-16-2012, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

What about the CC Speaker Stand? A CC5 plus the CCSS is about 27" - 28", which is not all that tall.

My TV stand is 22" high and I find that already too high for my 55" LCD TV. Ideal height should be about 18" so that my eyes are at screen mid-height when seated on on regular height sofa. I do keep the electronics inside the TV stand, which makes CC5 or CC3 positioning really tricky.

Fortunately, I have enough room on both sides of the screen to accommodate MMG as dual-mono center channel and MG 1.6 as mains. They blend really well.
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post #2267 of 3928 Old 04-17-2012, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by sdv5 View Post


My TV stand is 22" high and I find that already too high for my 55" LCD TV. Ideal height should be about 18" so that my eyes are at screen mid-height when seated on on regular height sofa. I do keep the electronics inside the TV stand, which makes CC5 or CC3 positioning really tricky.

Fortunately, I have enough room on both sides of the screen to accommodate MMG as dual-mono center channel and MG 1.6 as mains. They blend really well.

Sure but the original poster might have room above and below and not to side, I impinge most people have their tv higher than 18" off the ground

You could also change your furniture/ stand

I have a projector screen and it is higher, unfortunately I bought a stereo stand to go under the screen and that precludes use of the dmw

So I am running the cc5 and mg 1.7 as per magnepan's suggestion with subwoofer set to off, and fronts to large

Personally, I think it sounds fine

If receivers had some more flexibility in handling bass, this would not be an issue
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post #2268 of 3928 Old 04-17-2012, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertawillisjr View Post

I came back to this post because your subsequent posts concerning new equipment became confusing. Is the above list your current configuration or have you changed it? Does your Denon have any sort of automatic equalization like Audessy?

SDV5s recommendations are good but requires a lot of steps. I think you should discuss this with your Magnepan dealer. There may be a simpler solution. If not, follow his recommendations carefully and double check your work.

my denon avr 2105 is 7 yrs old so i do not have the equalization like audessy and aside from that magnepan does not recommend using equalization.
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post #2269 of 3928 Old 04-17-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by sdv5 View Post

For what you are trying to accomplish (Maggie tri center), conventional set-up will not work at all. You need to tell your AVR that you don't have the sub! Once you do that, you cannot use sub output on the AVR to get the .1 LFE channel to your sub. Instead, you need to feed the entire signal to your sub via speaker outputs (if your sub has such connections) or via pre-outs on the AVR. Then on the sub you need to set the cut off frequency to essentially capture just the LFE channel.

Your FR and FL speakers are set as full range, and they will augment the missing center channel bottom end that CC5 cannot reproduce. That way, the image will still be anchored properly to the screen. I realize that this set-up has a lot of compromises. For starters, you need the front main speakers to be able to handle the full signal including the LFE channel. Then you need to fiddle with sub hook-up.

Let me offer another suggestion. If you have the space and can provide suitable amplification, it would be better to purchase a pair of MMG speakers to use as dual mono center channel flanking the screen at about 30 degrees. See the wiring diagram in MC-1 manual. You would do the same with MMG. They are excellent speakers, and will play comfortably down to 60 Hz, which is more than you need for center channel. Then, wire your CC5 in parallel to MMG. The resulting impedance will be about 3 Ohms, and you need decent center channel amplifier to accommodate that. However, you would no longer have to fiddle with the sub. You could specify your speakers as small, and filter everything below 80 Hz or 60 Hz to the sub. With sub properly in the system, the LFE channel would go only to the sub. MMG have enough bottom end to augment CC5 just fine.

i follow the instruction of magnepan to set the front speakers as large, center as small, and surround as small and set your avr/processor with no sub. however, my denon avr 2105 is 7yrs old and all i can do is set the crossover at 200hz. after following this instruction i miss the .1 from my system it fails to integrate the sound.
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post #2270 of 3928 Old 04-17-2012, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by sdv5 View Post

True, except that most people with LCD or Plasma display have no place to put DWM woofer. CC5 covers from 200 Hz up. DWM covers frequencies below 200 Hz. Sounds down to 80 Hz can be easily localized, which requires DWM to be located directly below the screen. You cannot place it to the left or right. And DWM is 19.25 inches high. This means that you need to mount CC5 above the screen and cannot have any electronics below the screen because they would be obstructed by DWM. IMO, this set-up is way more involving (and way more expensive) than two MMGs flanking the screen in dual mono configuration.

My setup is just that: MMGC above the screen and DWM below the screen are the center channel; MMG's are left and right channels. This setup is made possible by a deep alcove to the right of the screen where I have all my electronics. The alcove is so deep that the plane of electronics is a foot behind the face of the screen. I realize my situation is unusual but fortunate. The combination of the MMGC and DWM as a center channel is seamless, lowers the frequency response to well below the crossover to the subwoofer (an Epik Valor), and creates the illusion of sound emanating from the screen itself. In effect, I have the screen surrounded by Maggies!
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post #2271 of 3928 Old 04-17-2012, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklan2 View Post

i follow the instruction of magnepan to set the front speakers as large, center as small, and surround as small and set your avr/processor with no sub. however, my denon avr 2105 is 7yrs old and all i can do is set the crossover at 200hz. after following this instruction i miss the .1 from my system it fails to integrate the sound.

yes at that point everything below 200 Hz, including the LFE (.1 channel) should be going to the fronts

so the subwoofer needs to be driven from the front outputs, either directly from the speaker terminals or from the analog front outputs

i believe you are feeding the avr output into an amp? You would then have to split front speaker outputs from the avr to drive the sub and amp, or drive the sub from the front speaker outputs from the amp and use its crossover
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post #2272 of 3928 Old 04-17-2012, 12:24 PM
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Curious: Who here has compared Magnepan's setup with a conventional setup, and what did you think?

My system sidesteps this whole issue and I am too lazy to rip it all up to compare.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2273 of 3928 Old 04-17-2012, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Curious: Who here has compared Magnepan's setup with a conventional setup, and what did you think?

My system sidesteps this whole issue and I am too lazy to rip it all up to compare.

I can only say with two 1.7's and CC5, mirage surrounds and a HSU sub,

I probably tried every imaginable configuration and the best for movies, was

to turn the sub off, fronts to large, and run the sub from the front outputs

you have to manually adjust the volume and crossover in the sub and then run room correction (if you have it) from the receiver

without out doing that, it is pretty obvious there is a hole in the middle at 100 Hz

and I don't really notice that 100 Hz is coming from the sides,

and it lets me run the sub at < 50 Hz which I prefer

it would be a much simpler operation if receivers allowed more flexibility in routing the bass from the small speakers
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post #2274 of 3928 Old 04-17-2012, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Curious: Who here has compared Magnepan's setup with a conventional setup, and what did you think?

For a point of reference my MMG set up is is unconventional for movies. I kept the Paradigm center and surrounds from my previous set up; the subs are crossed at 60 Hz for stereo listening - way below the other three speakers. Being that I now use the room for 90/10 music/movies I'm quite comfortable with the trade offs.

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post #2275 of 3928 Old 04-17-2012, 05:47 PM
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Interesting... I should have stated my configuration, sorry. I established what I liked long before AVRs and LFE so I stuck with what I knew worked for me. In my case, CC3 center, MG-IIIa L/R (and MC1 surrounds and backs but irrelevant for this). I have a pair of Rythmik subs beside the MG-IIIa's. Everything is driven by Emotiva amps after a Pioneer AVR. I am not using the AVR's sub output; instead, I have an active crossover from the AVR that crosses over around 45-50 Hz so the amps for the Maggies do not go below that and the subs do not go above that. No bass management issues since to the AVR this looks like a large L/R setup (much as Magnepan suggests), cleaner sound since the Maggies don't see all the subwoofer range, and tight integration (using phase adjust and such on the subs plus lots measurements) means it all plays well together.

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post #2276 of 3928 Old 04-17-2012, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Interesting... I should have stated my configuration, sorry. I established what I liked long before AVRs and LFE so I stuck with what I knew worked for me. In my case, CC3 center, MG-IIIa L/R (and MC1 surrounds and backs but irrelevant for this). I have a pair of Rythmik subs beside the MG-IIIa's. Everything is driven by Emotiva amps after a Pioneer AVR. I am not using the AVR's sub output; instead, I have an active crossover from the AVR that crosses over around 45-50 Hz so the amps for the Maggies do not go below that and the subs do not go above that. No bass management issues since to the AVR this looks like a large L/R setup (much as Magnepan suggests), cleaner sound since the Maggies don't see all the subwoofer range, and tight integration (using phase adjust and such on the subs plus lots measurements) means it all plays well together.

Sounds pretty good to me!
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post #2277 of 3928 Old 04-17-2012, 11:25 PM
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Thanks, I like it.

I prefer dual subs colocated with the mains for the best integration and imaging without localization issues. The main drawback (after cost and set-up issues, which for me requires a lot of measurements and tweaking) is that the subs may not be in the ideal place to cancel room modes. I solved that issue with some positional tweaking and a lot of room treatment.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2278 of 3928 Old 04-18-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

yes at that point everything below 200 Hz, including the LFE (.1 channel) should be going to the fronts

so the subwoofer needs to be driven from the front outputs, either directly from the speaker terminals or from the analog front outputs

i believe you are feeding the avr output into an amp? You would then have to split front speaker outputs from the avr to drive the sub and amp, or drive the sub from the front speaker outputs from the amp and use its crossover

my sub is connected from the pre-out of my receiver to the speaker input of the subwoofer thru mono cable.
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post #2279 of 3928 Old 04-18-2012, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by eklan2 View Post

my sub is connected from the pre-out of my receiver to the speaker input of the subwoofer thru mono cable.

you are using the receiver front left or right pre out?

don't use the LFE or subwoofer pre out
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post #2280 of 3928 Old 04-18-2012, 08:08 PM
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Pics of my set up or as described on another site "planar porn"

Front wall -



Juice and inputs -



Some more of the rear wall -



Audio/video -

MMGs
Emotiva Sub 12s
Paradigm CT 110 center
Paradigm Cinema ADP rears
Yamaha RX650 pre/pro
vintage McIntosh MC 2205
HP dm1 w/ NuForce Udac2
Panasonic dvd (no Blu here)
Panasonic PT - AE700u projector
83" DIY floating laminate screen

I didn't futz about too much integrating the subs, I crossed at 60 Hz and set the system up using an analog SPL meter - including test tones at the cross over for phase.

The room is 16' x 20' and the MMGs are on the long wall about 30" away, spread 8' apart at centers and symmetrically placed 6' feet from the side walls. Seating position is in the center, 8 1/2' back with 4' behind me. I have six 2" OC 703 panels on the side walls with bass trapping in the four tri corners.

Been experimenting with placement of the panels and as I can't do much about width due to the mantle I find that for now, moved a little further apart and ribbons on the outside seem to give the best sound stage.

OK..........I've shown you mine - now show me yours.

¿lɐɯɹou ǝq ʎɥʍ

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