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post #1 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 01:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello all. My father-in-law loves to watch movies, as do I. We often hang out and watch some stuff together. Recently he bought a new HDTV. He decided to go pick it up from our local B&M alone and got tricked into buying a new sorround system. I say tricked because instead of the salesman showing him around and giving him some options, he took him straight to the "Bose" section. The old man loved the"sorround sound" and "how it puts you right in the action" bull they fed him. Long story short, he bought the damn system for 1700 with taxes. He says it was a hook up because he had already bought the TV, LOL. I asked him if they included a bottle of Vaseline with the system.... he didnt like that very much. He challenged me to find him a comparable system that would sound as good for that price(the guy at CC told him only high end systems in the 10-15K sound this good) I immediatley thought about this site. I accepted his challenge and told him I would do it in only a few days. I also said I could probably find one for 1,200. He laughed at me.
So now I come to yall in hope of finding a way to open the old mans eyes(and ears) and show him that he got screwed. He said if I found something better he would return it and buy what I thought was better.
Can I please get some ideas as to what products could beat this system

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Bose-...ilar+Items+Mod

The only stipulations are these;
1.The price has to be under 1,700.(shouldnt be very hard)
2.The speakers MUST be of similar size(he wants to hide them)Are there any out there?
3.The sound must be as good or better than the Bose(again, shouldnt be hard)
4.And finally, the receiver must be as nice as his.lol

I already have an AVR in mind, the HK254/354. I also like the fact that it can decode HD audio.
But as far as speakers go, Im stumped. Im not sure where/what to get. Any input would really help. I really want to teach him and that guy at CC a lesson. Thanks in advance yall.
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post #2 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 01:17 AM
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The 4B Harmony from Aperion. Around 1200 dollars shipped. 5.1 speaker system. aperionaudio.com

"We can complain because rose bushes have thorns or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses". - Abraham Lincoln
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post #3 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 01:31 AM
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what is the point of rubbing it in his face that he got "tricked" into a Bose system?

If he is happy with what you or I consider sub-par audio and the whole bose speaker cube deal I'd say let him enjoy his setup instead of ragging on how he could've got a better system.

Unless you are trying to spec a system for he to show him a cost savings and he'll return the bose it's kinda a moot point isn't it ?

I'm sure that if the bose is properly setup it will serve his needs fine. it might not be a good value but if he is already convinced that the lil speakers sound good enough, it'll be mighty hard to justify worring about hunting down other satalite speakers that are small but sound better.

But if you are intent on show him the value in asking you for purchasing audio gear in the future or really just want to make your point there are a few good brands that make smaller speakers:

Energy, kilpsch, mirage, Definitive Technology, Orb audio are a few.

Good luck
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post #4 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 02:18 AM
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Not quite bose-sized but still very small:

should sound quite a bit better
Edit: forgot the link. Here.
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post #5 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 03:41 AM
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Same thing happened to my friend....lol

Her som said "It's Bose and it's expensive so it must sound good" She bought the acoustimass 10 for him and hooked it up to a (I would call it cheap) Sony 5.1 receiver........

I just said you spent too much $$$ and it's dosent have decent reviews from the audio sites........
and left it at that......when I watch my movies and they sound fantastic for what I have......he'll understand

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post #6 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undermined View Post

what is the point of rubbing it in his face that he got "tricked" into a Bose system?

If he is happy with what you or I consider sub-par audio and the whole bose speaker cube deal I'd say let him enjoy his setup instead of ragging on how he could've got a better system.

Unless you are trying to spec a system for he to show him a cost savings and he'll return the bose it's kinda a moot point isn't it ?

I'm sure that if the bose is properly setup it will serve his needs fine. it might not be a good value but if he is already convinced that the lil speakers sound good enough, it'll be mighty hard to justify worring about hunting down other satalite speakers that are small but sound better.

But if you are intent on show him the value in asking you for purchasing audio gear in the future or really just want to make your point there are a few good brands that make smaller speakers:

Energy, kilpsch, mirage, Definitive Technology, Orb audio are a few.

Good luck


it doesn't sound like he's rubbing his nose in it. it sounds like he is tryign to save his dad from being sucked in by that jackhole salesman. i would do the same thing...especially if it was my dad, but hell i'd even do it for a stranger.
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post #7 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 04:22 AM
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oh how i wish people's eyes were opened to the crap Blose is peddling....it just makes me sick to my stomach ugh
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post #8 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browninggold View Post

The 4B Harmony from Aperion. Around 1200 dollars shipped. 5.1 speaker system. aperionaudio.com

why is the sensitivity of all the speakers in that range so poor? 84dB? really?
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post #9 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

it doesn't sound like he's rubbing his nose in it. it sounds like he is tryign to save his dad from being sucked in by that jackhole salesman. i would do the same thing...especially if it was my dad, but hell i'd even do it for a stranger.

The father was already "sucked in"...

He might have good intentions but he certainly comes across in his post as a complete jerk if you ask me.
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post #10 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the posts guys. By the way, hes my in-law

Canoga, Hes not "sucked in" yet, he can return it for a full refund. Sorry if I came off as a jerk, but when you hear something like this happened to someone you know or care about, you cant just stand around and let them get screwed. I dont know about you,but I wont. Besides, hes the one that asked me to find him something better, I never told him I would/could until he challenged me. In a way Im glad he did. I get to help the old man and I get to show the guy at CC that not everyone is as dumb as they think. We are not rich or wealthy by any means, hell, the old man had been saving for a TV for about a year. I found him a really good deal and he got it. He had about 800 left over and I hate to see him get ripped off so bad for some crap that isnt worth it.
CADO, thanks for the suggestion, but it looks like the speakers themselves will be over 1,700. Any other suggestions??
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post #11 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Forgot to add;
It only has to be a 5.1 sorround
It does NOT have to have DVD, even though the Bose does have it
The speakers must absolutely have to be of equal size.
Thanks
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post #12 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 07:52 AM
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Orb Audio
Kef
Heck, even the discontinued Athena Micro system would destroy it.

Why does he want to limit himself to tiny speakers?

John

Loganed...finally. 6/6/08
My 3.0 HT Build Thread
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post #13 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 07:52 AM
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If the speakers have to be of the same size, I'm sorry to say that you may lose this challenge. Even HTIB's generally have larger speakers than Bose cubes. I say let him enjoy his new system.

I like Ice Cream!
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post #14 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 08:02 AM
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I would say either klipsch quintet system with a sub 12 and a decent receiver would smoke a bose system.
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post #15 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 08:15 AM
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yup...go with a klipsch quintet that would do nicely
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post #16 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 08:15 AM
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oh ya, and the answer to your question about "how to beat bose?"

my answer would be preferably with a golf club or a baseball bat :-)
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post #17 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

oh ya, and the answer to your question about "how to beat bose?"

my answer would be preferably with a golf club or a baseball bat :-)

I agree 150%!!
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post #18 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 08:31 AM
 
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The Day After Tomorrow with BOSE thou I prefer to use JBL, by why settle with my opinion.









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post #19 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 08:33 AM
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I don't know how they sound, but the mission m cube are around the same size and get good reviews on amazon.

They are available from www.tsto.com


Would the HTD Middy's be small enough http://www.htd.com/cabinet-speakers/flat-panel-speakers
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post #20 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.4ever View Post

Hello all. My father-in-law loves to watch movies, as do I. We often hang out and watch some stuff together. Recently he bought a new HDTV. He decided to go pick it up from our local B&M alone and got tricked into buying a new sorround system.
...
Can I please get some ideas as to what products could beat this system

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Bose-...ilar+Items+Mod

The only stipulations are these;
1.The price has to be under 1,700.(shouldnt be very hard)
2.The speakers MUST be of similar size(he wants to hide them)Are there any out there?
3.The sound must be as good or better than the Bose(again, shouldnt be hard)
4.And finally, the receiver must be as nice as his.lol

I already have an AVR in mind, the HK254/354. I also like the fact that it can decode HD audio.
But as far as speakers go, Im stumped. Im not sure where/what to get. Any input would really help. I really want to teach him and that guy at CC a lesson. Thanks in advance yall.

Hmm, the size thing might be too hard to overcome. Basically, you have to convince him that size does matter to a degree. You should check out Axiom Audio for the Epic Grand Master 175 series (not cube speakers though).

I know they are making Bose-like cube speakers but it's not out yet.

I owned Bose speakers for about 8 years. I liked them for the size and the sound was good enough. Or so I though. I got myself Axiom's Epic80/500 line and what a difference! I actually heard things that I never heard before (from movies that I've watched 50-60 times- like Cars....if you have small children, you'll know what I'm talking about)

Thanks,
Hansang
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post #21 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

yup...go with a klipsch quintet that would do nicely

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

oh ya, and the answer to your question about "how to beat bose?"

my answer would be preferably with a golf club or a baseball bat :-)

I agree with both suggestions 100%. You also may consider a Klipsch Cinema 6 or Cinema 8 system. They cost more than a Quiintet, but come with a sub. It's not a great sub, but will definitely be better than a Blose Bass module. The speakers are a tad bigger than Blose, but still small and easily put out of the way. Pair any of these systems up with an Onkyo 605 for $250 and be well within your budget.

You may also want to let him read this article.

Steve

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post #22 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman325 View Post

You may also want to let him read this article.

One of my favorite anti-Bose articles of all time. I've linked this to many people before. If you don't have time to read it, the most important part of the entire article (in my opinion) is this:

"To reiterate the above, the Acoustimass's bass module responds to 46 Hz to 202 Hz at ±2.3 dB, while the satellites respond to 280 Hz to 13.3 KHz at ±10.5 dB. This is, by the way, the only speaker that I have ever seen tested with a ±10.5 db allowance. Still, this leaves a frequency gap between the satellites and bass module of about 80 Hz! That is 80 hertz of sound that is completely erased within the system's internal crossovers! I wonder how Bose figured out which 80 hertz matters least in the audible spectrum? I will tell you though that that gap accounts for a HUGE loss in midrange sound, which is responsible for the majority contralto, baritone, and tenor vocals in music, and many sound effects in home theater. And let us not forget that the Acoustimass system also ignores audible signal from 20Hz to 45Hz on the low end (deep bass), and 13KHz to 20KHz on the high end (high treble). Do the math folks, this Bose system only produces 13,176 of the 19,980 Hertz in the audible sound spectrum. That's only ~66% of the actual recording being played back to you! Is this the kind of performance you'd expect from a $1300 product? Most speakers in the same price range are able to respond from 15 Hz to 25 Khz and all modern media formats, from vinyls to DVD, record these frequencies as well. Though these are peak frequencies that most humans can not hear, the pressure produced from 15 Hz and 25 KHz frequencies can be detected physiologically, and will in fact have an effect on the harmonics of the music you listen to. So why does this "industry-leading" Bose company only produce about 52% of the sound of it's equal-priced market competitors? Good question..."
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post #23 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 10:00 AM
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If it's a Lyfestyle system, it will be tough to beat....sound aside. It's made as a "life style" statement and not the best sound for the buck. The other features..set up, rc remote and style are all part of the package. Everything else that competes is piecemeal.

You have to admit, they may have the best FM radio sound around. That seems to be their range. An older person's ears with restricted hearing after years of abuse makes a solid market as we "old men" are easier to please. We don't need high end sound at the assisted living apartments.

Sorry, you loose to them.....

When we get to the nursing home...it's time for a Wave radio.
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post #24 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 10:14 AM
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If space is a problem, he should consider inwalls.

If looks are a problem, then you should be able to win him over with the many speaker brands that feature furniture grade finishes.

Aperion finishes are very nice.
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post #25 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 10:14 AM
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post #26 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 10:38 AM
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Why not a HSU Ventriloquist system? The speakers are small like the Bose and it has a much better subwoofer. And its only $500 or so, which leaves plenty of money for a receiver.

http://hsuresearch.com/products/performance1.html
http://hsuresearch.com/products/performance2.html

More info on the Ventriloguist speakers.
http://hsuresearch.com/products/vt-12.html

If your FIL shopped at Circuit City the Energy Take Classic system is available for $500 too. The satellites are 6.75" tall compare to the 6.25" of the Bose cubes. And the Energy Sub is way better than the Bose bass module.
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Energ...oductDetail.do

Afro GT
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post #27 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 12:24 PM
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ya know, the engergy TAKE 5.1 system is pretty good and VERY small speakers. that would work too
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post #28 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackass414 View Post

I would say either klipsch quintet system with a sub 12 and a decent receiver would smoke a bose system.

The satellites are quite small but have far better characteristics than the Bose cubes--this is a good suggestion as long as the satellites are not too large for the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77Pat View Post

I don't know how they sound, but the mission m cube are around the same size and get good reviews on amazon.

If size is of the utmost importance, then these would be the best match--actually, they're about half the size of the Bose cubes. However, while I assume that they sound much better overall, based on what I've read, they still only go down to about 280 Hz, which is no lower than the Bose cubes. This means that a lot of localizable sound, including dialogue, will be reproduced by the subwoofer, which is a bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77Pat View Post

Would the HTD Middy's be small enough http://www.htd.com/cabinet-speakers/flat-panel-speakers

These are slightly smaller than the Klipsch Quintet satellites but still quite a bit larger than the Bose cubes--I'm thinking that one might as well go for Ascend Acoustics HTM-200 SEs all around for $608 (a subwoofer must be added) if the size requirement could be relaxed a bit. Regarding quality, these would utterly destroy the Bose system, of course.

Another system that we should consider is the Hsu VT-12 Ventriloquist, which has satellites that are about the same size as the Bose cubes. This system has a much larger center speaker that helps make up for the main deficiency of all satellite speakers of this size.

All of these systems should be within the specified budget range, and I think that a summary is now in order (listed by increasing satellite speaker size). For reference, the dimensions of the Bose satellites are 6.25 x 3 x 4 (all measurements are in inches).


Mission M-Cube

Satellite dimensions: 3.5 x 3.5 x 3.5
Typical cost: $795

Pros:
* Satellites are even smaller than the Bose satellites!
* Better sound (reportedly) with reproduction of much higher frequencies.
* Presumably superior bass.

Cons:
* Satellites can't go any lower than Bose satellites (280 Hz), resulting in localizable sound and dialogue coming from the subwoofer.
* May sound better than Bose but probably not the best value.

Comments:
I do not recommend this system because of the excessively high subwoofer crossover point.


Hsu VT-12 Ventriloquist (needs subwoofer)

Satellite dimensions: 6.125 x 4.17 x 3.125
Typical cost: $299

Pros:
* Satellites are about the same size as the Bose satellites.
* High-bass/low-midrange comes from the center speaker rather than the subwoofer.
* Center goes down to 80 Hz.
* Highly-rated by reviewers--must be doing something right.

Cons:
* No tweeters, so the sound is probably nearly as dull as Bose's.
* Large center speaker (5 x 16.875 x 8.625).
* Satellites are deficient in high-bass/low-midrange (reproduced in center speaker).

Comments:
Slightly recommended only if you absolutely MUST have tiny, tiny satellite speakers and can tolerate the relatively large center speaker. There are lots of tradeoffs involved in a system like this one, but Hsu at least made sure that the high-bass/low-midrange frequencies are reproduced somewhere (besides the subwoofer).


Energy Take Classic 5.1

Satellite dimensions: 6.875 x 4.125 x 4.125
Typical cost: $500

Pros:
* Has a tweeter!
* Goes down to 115 Hz (center goes down to 110 Hz).
* Excellent sensitivity and decent power handling.
* Well regarded in the home theater community for years

Cons:
* Comes with a small subwoofer (I'd rather buy it separately), but at this price it's hard to complain and it's way better than Bose in any case.

Comments:
The satellites are just a tad larger than Bose's but should significantly outperform them in every way. Recommended over the Hsu VT-12, even if you need to replace the sub. This should be the easiest solution, as everything is in a single, widely available package.


HTD Middy Compact Speaker (needs subwoofer)

Satellite dimensions: 9.5 x 4.5625 x 5.25
Typical cost: $445

Pros:
* Has a tweeter!
* Goes down to 100 Hz.
* Excellent sensitivity and decent power handling.
* Haven't heard these myself but they've got to sound way better than the Bose system.

Cons:
* Significantly larger than the Bose satellites (but still fairly compact).

Comments:
Seems nice enough, but if you can stand another inch or two in each dimension, there are better alternatives that still fit within the budget.


Klipsch Quintet III (needs subwoofer)

Satellite dimensions: 8.3 x 5 x 6.3
Typical cost: $300

Pros:
* Has a tweeter!
* Goes down to 120 Hz (center goes down to 125 Hz).
* Excellent sensitivity and decent power handling.
* Sounds way better than the Bose system, but you have to like/tolerate the characteristic Klipsch sound.

Cons:
* Significantly larger than the Bose satellites (but still fairly compact).

Comments:
At least according to the specs, the speakers don't go quite as low as the HTD Middy Compact Speaker, but I guess 120 Hz is alright for compact satellite systems. If you like Klipsch, then this should be a pretty decent system.


Ascend Acoustics HTM-200 SE (needs subwoofer)

Satellite dimensions: 11 x 6.5 x 6.375
Typical cost: $608

Pros:
* A full-fledged compact bookshelf speaker with excellent music reproduction (neutral, analytical sound, much like pro monitors) and big-time HT performance for its size--no comparison with Bose, please.
* Goes down to 74 Hz.
* Good sensitivity and relatively high power handling.

Cons:
* The largest speaker in this summary, but about as small as one can find for its level of performance.

Comments:
You won't need this in order to beat Bose, but it might be the best value of the group because for a small room, there may never be a need to upgrade them, and they'd make great surrounds for larger, higher-end systems in any case.
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post #29 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

ya know, the engergy TAKE 5.1 system is pretty good and VERY small speakers. that would work too

+1

That is a good suggestion.
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post #30 of 104 Old 12-29-2008, 01:31 PM
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How about these speakers:
http://www.tsto.com/cgi-bin/TSTO.sto.../View/2666&2D2

With this receiver:
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR705...0585597&sr=8-2

This dvd player
http://www.amazon.com/DV-981HD-Unive...0585660&sr=1-2


This universal remote:
http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Harmo...0585767&sr=8-9


This would be about $1520, including tax and shipping (for everything except the speakers). Take, say, about $50 at monoprice for all cabling (note however that the DVD player comes with an hdmi cable). You get: better speakers than the Bose at the same size, a better receiver with the option an add an external amp, a very good upscaling DVD player and a great universal remote. You can go even cheaper than this, for example, if you get the Onkyo 605 with no DVD player and no remote (take about 400 off).
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