**Official EMP Owner's Thread** - Page 148 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4411 of 4419 Old Today, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Thanks for the snapshot, Elihawk. I'll be very interested in hearing more when you are setup in the theater. I enjoy reading other people's thoughts on the speakers I own and see how opinions differ from mine. I think different size rooms and acoustics will change many aspects of a speaker, including bass. In my room (3,400 cu. ft. with wood flooring), I think 60 Hz is really pushing it, but I haven't tested it out on frequency tones. However, the bass the R5Bi's could produce in my room seems precise and controlled, and I enjoyed it. I listened to it in stereo mode (without a subwoofer) for the first two weeks.

If you haven't read my review on the R5Bi's, don't. Wait until you have published your thoughts, then take a peak to see how our impressions coincide or differ. If you have read it, ignore it and assume I don't know what the heck I'm talking about.
One person could be talking about 60hz at 70dB being enough, while another is talking about 60hz at 85dB. All a matter of perspective at a given volume. Rooms size, etc will definitely play a role in what's 'enough' around the crossover points (80hz or so) with the R5 bookshelf. In a room your size, 60hz is fine if you're close to them and not getting reasonable loud or more. To fill the room, watching movies anywhere even remotely close to reference, etc....no way in hell I'd cross them at 60hz. A 5.25" mid-woofer would need to be a lot beefier and have a lot more enclosure volume to do that.

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post #4412 of 4419 Old Today, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post
One person could be talking about 60hz at 70dB being enough, while another is talking about 60hz at 85dB. All a matter of perspective at a given volume. Rooms size, etc will definitely play a role in what's 'enough' around the crossover points (80hz or so) with the R5 bookshelf. In a room your size, 60hz is fine if you're close to them and not getting reasonable loud or more. To fill the room, watching movies anywhere even remotely close to reference, etc....no way in hell I'd cross them at 60hz. A 5.25" mid-woofer would need to be a lot beefier and have a lot more enclosure volume to do that.
I think there was a misunderstanding in my post. I don't cross over at 60 Hz. I cross over at 80 Hz. But I was talking about the speakers in a 2.0 configuration and my subjective impressions of the quality (not necessarily depth) of bass in my room. If I was curious enough (and I wasn't, because I knew I'd be adding a subwoofer into the mix), I would have run some test frequencies and check that with my dB meter. BTW, my listening position is around 8 - 9 feet from the speakers.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 & C48, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95 and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek R5Bi, PSA XS30, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
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post #4413 of 4419 Old Today, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post
Jim Salk seems to think otherwise

I don't know enough about speaker design, but if Jim Salk has a tower with an MTM arrangement w/ ribbon tweeter...it must be doable. Keep in mind that planars and ribbons are slightly different
I may not be understanding it fully, but that's what I learned based on my research a couple of weeks ago. When a ribbon or planar tweeter is made taller than it is wide, it already has a very limited vertical dispersion. This prevents reflections off ceilings and floors, and gives a very wide horizontal sweet spot. That's why I question the benefits of an MTM configuration with those types of tweeters, but like you I'm not a speaker designer.
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post #4414 of 4419 Old Today, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by gregoryperkins View Post
Sure, just above your l+r. I bought the on walls for that purpose but am unable to install them in the correct place so haven't gotten them up yet. The bookshelf would probably be a better match.

First I would move the subs, both should not be up front. I have mine front right, left rear. Ideally they should be at the midpoint of the side walls for 2 subs which is not possible in my room.
Any other thoughts on presence speakers and how they may enhance overall sound for movies? Thinking about adding presence speakers just above the screen and aligned with the mains.

Thanks for your thoughts gregoryperkins. Unfortunately I don't have much latitude on sub placement due to room aesthetics and WAF and that is one of the main reasons I opted for two subs instead of one; to minimize the need for the sub crawl and promote better blending with the mains.

Here is the pic again for those who may have missed it:
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Yamaha RX-V773WA / EMP E55Ti, E56Ci, E5Bi, Dual ES1010i / Epson Projector 5010 / Elite Screens 120
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post #4415 of 4419 Old Today, 01:14 PM
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Btw, my suggesting 55 hz was not based on any measurements and could easily have been 60-65 hz (and my bedroom is absolutely brutal for sound, but hey it is mostly TV anyway)...I just know that I was hearing bass that I hadn't heard from the almost year of occassionally listening to music via the JBL130s. Now, the JBL have 4 inch woofers, so maybe that shouldn't be a suprise...
Anyway, in an awful room with no EQ and very little placement, the e5Bi were able to impress me with the midrange, of course, decent to very good bass (perhaps not lower than 60, but the tuba sounded great) and again in a terrible room, they put out an impressive soundstage and "depth". Hopefully, this weekend and before the superbowl, I will have them mounted in my theater!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #4416 of 4419 Old Today, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
I think there was a misunderstanding in my post. I don't cross over at 60 Hz. I cross over at 80 Hz. But I was talking about the speakers in a 2.0 configuration and my subjective impressions of the quality (not necessarily depth) of bass in my room. If I was curious enough (and I wasn't, because I knew I'd be adding a subwoofer into the mix), I would have run some test frequencies and check that with my dB meter. BTW, my listening position is around 8 - 9 feet from the speakers.
Right. I knew you didn't mean YOU crossed them at 60hz, but I was just further pointing out that 60hz might be a tad too low for these bookshelves. Some have either asked about it or stated they are going to try 60hz or use 60hz. I see a lot of "what x-over should I use" in here and everywhere on these forums. Figured it'd be a good place for those new people getting their speakers after BF and x-mas to hear that there isn't a set place for the x-over for everyone. Too many factors. I'd say that unless you're listening to them relatively quietly and/or in a pretty small room...60hz would be out.

Sorry for the confusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I may not be understanding it fully, but that's what I learned based on my research a couple of weeks ago. When a ribbon or planar tweeter is made taller than it is wide, it already has a very limited vertical dispersion. This prevents reflections off ceilings and floors, and gives a very wide horizontal sweet spot. That's why I question the benefits of an MTM configuration with those types of tweeters, but like you I'm not a speaker designer.
Yeah I get what you're saying. I know that's the case, as far as dispersion patterns with MTM (dome tweeters) and that's the case with the planar types of tweeters (Height vs. Width). I figured if Salk and countless others are doing MTM's with the RAAL and other ribbons then I'm sure there's some sort of benefit to it. The most obvious would be higher efficiency and lower distortion


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
Btw, my suggesting 55 hz was not based on any measurements and could easily have been 60-65 hz (and my bedroom is absolutely brutal for sound, but hey it is mostly TV anyway)...I just know that I was hearing bass that I hadn't heard from the almost year of occassionally listening to music via the JBL130s. Now, the JBL have 4 inch woofers, so maybe that shouldn't be a suprise...
Anyway, in an awful room with no EQ and very little placement, the e5Bi were able to impress me with the midrange, of course, decent to very good bass (perhaps not lower than 60, but the tuba sounded great) and again in a terrible room, they put out an impressive soundstage and "depth". Hopefully, this weekend and before the superbowl, I will have them mounted in my theater!
Sorry, I thought you meant you had them crossed at 60hz. They'll definitely put out some midbass punch and smoothly at that. I have mine (surrounds) crossed at 80hz since they're semi close to the wall and I don't really need them to go much lower


Quote:
Originally Posted by tlopes View Post
Any other thoughts on presence speakers and how they may enhance overall sound for movies? Thinking about adding presence speakers just above the screen and aligned with the mains.

Thanks for your thoughts gregoryperkins. Unfortunately I don't have much latitude on sub placement due to room aesthetics and WAF and that is one of the main reasons I opted for two subs instead of one; to minimize the need for the sub crawl and promote better blending with the mains.
Looks nice Tlopes. Wonder how the new sub(s) would perfo........oops. Nvm. Hahah. Seriously though, looks nice. Wish I had a dedicated theater room for a projector. Ugh. First world problems.
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post #4417 of 4419 Old Today, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tlopes View Post
Thanks for your thoughts gregoryperkins. Unfortunately I don't have much latitude on sub placement due to room aesthetics and WAF and that is one of the main reasons I opted for two subs instead of one; to minimize the need for the sub crawl and promote better blending with the mains.
The problem with having both up front is you don't really do anything for the nulls the long waves can create. It doesn't smooth out the bass response. Try moving them around sometime when she's not around. My right is similarly positioned to where you have yours, but the left is under the surround. If it sounds great at your seat, no big deal. The idea behind the 2nd and 4th sub is to smooth out the bass for all seats. The gain is negligible. I can't remember if I mentioned, I also have 2 1010i.
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post #4418 of 4419 Old Today, 03:08 PM
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In the current setting, there is no sub so I am listening in 2 ch mode, so I have them essentially going full range. When I move them to surround duty, they will be crossed at 80, which is what got this round of upgrade started anyway- to make a long story short, my theater Yamaha AVR only allows one cross over point and I want my EMP fronts to play down to 80, which my SLS surround speakers aren't capable of...then I put in the BR Live, Die, Repeat! And now I am getting more capable surrounds...

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #4419 of 4419 Old Today, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post
Right. I knew you didn't mean YOU crossed them at 60hz, but I was just further pointing out that 60hz might be a tad too low for these bookshelves. Some have either asked about it or stated they are going to try 60hz or use 60hz. I see a lot of "what x-over should I use" in here and everywhere on these forums. Figured it'd be a good place for those new people getting their speakers after BF and x-mas to hear that there isn't a set place for the x-over for everyone. Too many factors. I'd say that unless you're listening to them relatively quietly and/or in a pretty small room...60hz would be out.

Sorry for the confusion
No problem, and I agree with your statement 100 percent of crossing these @ 80 Hz. Since the R5Bi's are ported, they will have a steep rolloff, and perhaps that is why I liked the bass as much as I did. Nothing to muddy the waters.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 & C48, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95 and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek R5Bi, PSA XS30, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
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